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Marcus Welbey
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33 I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.
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Karia Sur
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:14:00 -
[2]
1 - i would evict you.
2 - I would move.
3 - there are always actions that can be taken to counteract another persons actions.
4 - if they are truly afk, they arent a threat. If they arent truly afk, then you have ways and means of removing them.
no flame, no troll, but seriously man, at least come along with a decent argument. The points you make just make you out to be a chicken who isnt prepared to try to do something in retaliation.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:15:00 -
[3]
If you were standing in my room with a .45, I'd probably have three people with shotguns pointed at your head. So that analogy falls flat on its face, yes?
Now if you were to stand in my room, invisible and with no means of impacting upon my welfare, I'd go about my business.
If you were standing in my room, invisible but in possession of a portal gun which would let you open a portal through which an indeterminate number of demons could instantly erupt, I would be concerned. Either I myself would have an indeterminate number of demons ready to erupt through a portal of my own making, or I would be asking for the portal gun to be nerfed so that I could run away or have a chance to kill you (and this render your portal gun inoperative) before your army of demons had a chance to erupt through the portal.
It is not AFK cloaking which is "the problem" here so much as the instantaneous nature of cynosural travel, and the inability to determine what is likely to come through that portal.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:19:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2011 16:22:15
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
Threat, yes. Critical danger, no. And the more appropriate analogy would be a wild west town and you, a newcomer//mysterious stranger sitting at the bar.
Quote: 2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
Then DON'T sit in a station all day and spin a ship. 0.0 is not supposed to be highsec, in case you haven't noticed. There is SUPPOSED to be some danger. Also, as long as you stay OUTSIDE the job place, and my company has even the sprightliest competent security team, I would not really give a damn about you standing outside. It's only when you try to come in and security drops the ball that you need to start worrying. Or if you prefer the wild west analogy, if you're alone in the bar with the "new guy" and he all of a sudden draws his gun but nobody else in the bar bothers to draw theirs.
Quote: 3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
There is no need to counter WHILE he's ACTUALLY AFK. Once he's no longer AFK, you need to deal with him like any other intruder. Oh, wait, I forget, you like living in 0.0 but also being just as secure as in highsec (or, better said, even more secure). Right.
Quote: 4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change int he actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dint want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
YOU are gaming a flaw in the intel system, namely the no-effort intel you get by having a "LOCAL" which tells you if there's any possible threat online. AFK cloakers counter-game that system by making you feel like there's a constant threat.
AFK cloaking is the counter to local. You don't need a counter-counter, you need to remove the initial imbalance. Remove local.
P.S. Yes, and also nerf cynoing a bit. Like, say, require a spool-up time for all regular jumpdrive/jumpbridge/jumptunnel travel. You still have black ops to contend with, but that was INTENTIONAL. Black ops jumps/tunnels can remain spool-up-less.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:25:00 -
[5]
Its not instantaneous, from decloak to the bridgees locking its probably 5 or 6 seconds depending on lag + what the target is. Also bombers die very fast when stationary and recons lock time is nerfed by decloak. All in all a solo ratter has a decent chance of escape, possibly with a bomber kill, if they are smart enough to be aligned if ratting with a cloaker in system. Moving at speed while ratting can make it very difficult for a cloaky to get near you without decloaking (esp in belts. As ever people who warp to belt at 0 and sit there killing rats deserve to die. Missions and plexes are safer as cyno cannot be opened in deadspace.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:27:00 -
[6]
To be fair, a 10-15 second combined jump time would just about hit the sweet spot. So add a 5-10 seconds spool-up time. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.02 16:38:00 -
[7]
Keep AFK cloakers (well maybe require a check in once every couple hours)
Keep Local (well maybe have the local list updated once every two minutes on the minute - a gameable delay that still tells the basic story of who lives where) without mashing scanner and only seeing character, corporation, and alliance names if they are on grid and you have a time to check while in that position)
Learn to defend yourself while ratting.. stop figuring you can solo pve in a pve fit ship? (hybrid fits for pve that allow you to defend yourself maybe against player rats as well as npc rats?)
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
You are neither AFK, nor cloaked, in my living room. This is the most Godawful, stupid, pubbie rationale I have ever heard.
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
Feel free. Again, you're not cloaked, nor AFK, standing outside my job with a gun. You'll enjoy Bubba in your cell, though! BTW: comparing AFK cloaking to any kind of real life scenario? Horribly stupid.
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
You sound mad. U mad? I think u mad.
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
So because you don't like how they play the game, you want to force them to play the game your way? Doesn't that sound just a bit arrogant? How bout you learn to deal with game mechanics, find a friend in a falcon to rat with you, and HTFU.
Originally by: Marcus Welbey Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions the way I want to hear them. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.
FTFY
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:38:00 -
[9]
time for my sig again ?
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:44:00 -
[10]
The reason AFK cloaking works has little to do with logic and everything to do with fear.
It really doesnt matter if the threat is real or only percieved. It has to be acted upon. And it only makes it worse if the only thing you can do is gang up and never actually get the release of tension that is an engagement.
But having a friend around usually helps to make you feel more secure.
The OPs points arent the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a realitivly large amount of people.
I wouldnt be adverse to have some sort of limiting factor on cloaking.. even if it is 30 minutes or more. Just to put a little more effort into the whole deal. I mean what would be the point of sitting cloaked in a system and then going afk for 23 hours, other than to make the situation unbearable for others. It just seems too easy to do it. It wouldnt be nearly as effective if they disappeared from local too.. but then we would have a whole new sense of paranoia going on I guess.
In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.
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Jovan Geldon
Gallente Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:49:00 -
[11]
Wow. It maust have been at least 2 hours since the last afk cloaker whine thread.
Also, inb4 "AFK Cloaker" emptyposting
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Flex Nebura The OP's points aren't the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a relatively large amount of people.
Remove local and no more fear... compared to "nobody there" anyway _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Flex Nebura In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.
Then the problem is not cloaking. The problem is the owners of the system not doing what's necessary to change their perception of the potential threat. Fleet up with a corpmate, share the rat bounties, have the protection of a friend. Once you do that, you start seeing that cloaker in system as an opportunity for a killmail instead of something big and nasty.
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:52:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Alpheias on 02/04/2011 17:52:12
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Flex Nebura The OP's points aren't the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a relatively large amount of people.
Remove local and no more fear... compared to "nobody there" anyway
No, don't do that. I like my AFK cloak-alt "I see you" that does nothing but sit cloaked in a system somewhere.
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33 I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.
I see a series of statements, not questions. Not a good start for a discussion.
1) You're conflating the terms "threat" and "harm." You first sentence presents the claim that AFK cloakers do no "harm" and then you try to refute it by saying they aren't a "threat."
2) The argument is you can go somewhere else, exactly.
3) In terms of "counters" I would think of this as a counter to local. If local didn't exist, people would still fly around, so you're 50/50 idea is wrong.
4) So you want to nerf cloaking? Fine, but that's a separate discussion.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
I would use this on you because you were not cloaked.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 17:59:00 -
[17]
The better afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.
On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mkmin An even dumber afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.
On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.
FYP
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: mkmin An even dumber afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.
On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.
failed to be clever
FYP
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Flex Nebura In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.
Then the problem is not cloaking. The problem is the owners of the system not doing what's necessary to change their perception of the potential threat. Fleet up with a corpmate, share the rat bounties, have the protection of a friend. Once you do that, you start seeing that cloaker in system as an opportunity for a killmail instead of something big and nasty.
When I said the problem with cloaking was fear... I didnt mean to say that cloaking was a problem with the game. (except its a bit easy to use)
I meant more that its a challenge. That we have to overcome. And like Akita said, afk cloaking is a counter to local. And it also counters various bots. So its not all bad.
Like you, I think the way to overcome AFK cloakers is through teamwork. And if local stays in game forever, all I would suggest as a nerf to cloaking would be to add some sort of limiting factor so it would require some sort of input... rather than having it working 23 hours straight.
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Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:11:00 -
[21]
The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.
Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?
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8agpuss
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:13:00 -
[22]
OP: Are you CCP Grayscale?
Look. 0.0 is meant to be lawless. EVE is a multiplayer game. Get some friends, and work out a counter. Or alternatively go back to highsec.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.
Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.
Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?
An interesting comparison. I see what you're saying, but I would say the difference is the cloaker isn't generating a product, and thus not impacting the market for the entirety of the universe. The only impact a cloaker has is on the players in that particular system. IF you move one system over, the cloaker is gone. If you move one system over in hisec, there's likely to be more macro miners. So while similar in ways, I don't think there's a double standard in vehemently opposing one while vehemently championing the other.
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Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:18:00 -
[25]
Originally by: baltec1 AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.[/quote
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
Actually, if the cloaker HAD that ability, it WOULD be on a par with macro minibng. The fact that it doesn't make it's own isk makes them different situations.
And again, the question goes back to.. if you can't play against an empty chair, that makes no isk, that shoots nothing, that moves nowhere.. why are you playing?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
Originally by: baltec1 AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
Gee, that empty chair is sure kicking your ass. He must be a formidable opponent.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
I afk in my bomber and pay my subs. Im not sure what kind of argument you are trying to make here. AFK cloakers have never stopped me from ratting because they are AFK and thus not there to stop me.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:23:00 -
[29]
However, a way... even if it's once a day where someone could randomly hit a button to decloak in a system would be amazing. Imo, Sov V And cost a heap of iskies.
The tears from the dudes who do "afk" cloak would be amazing.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:23:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Swynet on 02/04/2011 18:26:13
Originally by: Marcus Welbey 1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
You really need a psychiatrist
Quote: 2.So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
You are trying to make an ass hole think !! - shoot and never ask yourself questions, humanity means something now you've done this.
Quote: 3. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
Back to a (the) game, what do you mean?
Quote: 4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
You have that control, alt scouts real scouts and jump/titan bridges. Take your pants up.
0.0 = no rules but those you are capable of make players respect, if you can't you don't deserve it. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:24:00 -
[31]
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
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BlackSparrowHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:28:00 -
[32]
Edited by: BlackSparrowHawk on 02/04/2011 18:31:20 Its common knowledge there are more carebears in low/null sec then there are in high sec. This thread partly supports this... I can't believe how so many null sec corps cringe at the sight of carebears and their 'peaceful' frame of mind of "leave me alone i just want to make money'. Fact is these hardcore pirates have carebears in their own corps. Sadly to say i've even got some in my corp... Those who choose to farm sanctums or beltrats over Roaming. The way i see it, is anything that encouges pvp in low/nul/wh is good... those regions aren't meant to feel safe...If you want safety go back to Empire!.........................
Oh and to OP, all those anologies are compared to RL scenarios. You may as well say Podding in eve should be abolished since we can't kill in RL. Point is RL has restrictions, in eve ANYTHING goes. TBH i feel more empathy for the guy in another thread who got ninja'd and Popped in his mission... i feel more for that dude than all these carebear threads about afk cloaking and Sanctum nerf.
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
You mind if I steal this? +1 rep to you, sir.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:29:00 -
[34]
Edited by: mkmin on 02/04/2011 18:31:11
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
Originally by: baltec1
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
This really. AFK cloaking is PVP with no user input. Just because it's bad at it, doesn't mean it isn't PVP.
And yes, an AFK cloaker is a threat. It may not actually be dangerous, but it is a very potent and very real threat. People do AFK cloaking because it is a threat. It's a message to the people in the system saying "If you don't play the game the way I want you to play, I might drop a supercarrier fleet on you" which sounds like a threat to me.
If a counter to the threat in the form of "drop the fleet or get out" was added (i.e. cloaks use fuel) then it would be balanced.
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Jean hunt
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:33:00 -
[35]
to the op......take ur .45 stick it in ur ass and pull the trigger.
Goodbye !
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:33:00 -
[36]
IF he's AFK, how can he drop a fleet?
And here's another answer: cynojam your system. Done and done.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: mkmin Edited by: mkmin on 02/04/2011 18:31:11
Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
Originally by: baltec1
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining
This really. AFK cloaking is PVP with no user input. Just because it's bad at it, doesn't mean it isn't PVP.
And yes, an AFK cloaker is a threat. It may not actually be dangerous, but it is a very potent and very real threat. People do AFK cloaking because it is a threat. It's a message to the people in the system saying "If you don't play the game the way I want you to play, I might drop a supercarrier fleet on you" which sounds like a threat to me.
If a counter to the threat in the form of "drop the fleet or get out" was added (i.e. cloaks use fuel) then it would be balanced.
Then people will afk in umprobable ships while bombers become near useless thanks to your nerfing of their range.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2011 18:39:40
Originally by: mkmin If a counter to the threat in the form of "drop the fleet or get out" was added (i.e. cloaks use fuel) then it would be balanced.
How about if EVERY ship would require fuel just to move in space ? No, make that "use fuel to refill capacitor", and put a cap usage on cloaks, and also put a cap usage on simply moving around. HAPPY NOW ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:39:00 -
[39]
Originally by: baltec1 Then people will afk in umprobable ships while bombers become near useless thanks to your nerfing of their range.
Or you can grow some balls and show everyone you are a hull tanker without 30man support behind you.
Forget it, I was just joking. You can dock again until you can outnumber. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:41:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Feligast IF he's AFK, how can he drop a fleet?
And here's another answer: cynojam your system. Done and done.
well played.
He can make the threat whether he's afk or not. Whether he can actually do it regardless of afk status is another question. Although an afk inactivity flag to chat channels might be a good counter. Added functionality to friendly chat channels, and removes the power from those gaining PVP advantage while not even sitting at their computer.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: mkmin Although an afk inactivity flag to chat channels might be a good counter. Added functionality to friendly chat channels, and removes the power from those gaining PVP advantage while not even sitting at their computer.
Yeeees, because people could never find a way to make the mouse move or click every now and then while still being AFK, would they ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
You mind if I steal this? +1 rep to you, sir.
+ 1 from me too ...
Plenty of ways to cope...might raise the dificulty, and lower the net isk/hour per player of certain pve activities if scouts , logis and less efficient fits are needed, but there are ways to cope . This cut in income might get too extreme with the anomolie changes and push players back to lvl4s if not continually balanced.. but tweaking income balance is an ongoing thing in any mmo
maybe different from those above I like some aspects of local but behaving like it isn't there is perfectly acceptable . Cutting down somewhat on the speed and reliablity of the info in local might be a good idea.
(imo local adds a stronger sense of players creating time and space in the virtual enviroment by seeing each otheres faces and being able to easily see thier corps...alliances etc...you don't need to chat to interact.. warping off to a pos when a gang comes through is player interaction too)
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: mkmin Although an afk inactivity flag to chat channels might be a good counter. Added functionality to friendly chat channels, and removes the power from those gaining PVP advantage while not even sitting at their computer.
Yeeees, because people could never find a way to make the mouse move or click every now and then while still being AFK, would they ?
Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:49:00 -
[44]
Originally by: mkmin Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
Good luck detecting THAT. It's virtually indistinguishable from a person barely paying attention to the game but still around. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:54:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: mkmin Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
Good luck detecting THAT. It's virtually indistinguishable from a person barely paying attention to the game but still around.
You're right... because the EULA could be broken, every thing that could be botted should just be locked down. Whoops, you can bot the login? Let's shut that down too!
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Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 18:57:00 -
[46]
mk, I respect the fact that you feel as strongly about this as I, even if the opposite way. I would, however, like to get your response to this question.
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:04:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Feligast mk, I respect the fact that you feel as strongly about this as I, even if the opposite way. I would, however, like to get your response to this question.
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
I haven't thought that hard about it actually. I'm not sure I've ever really been affected by it that much, I'm going through the mental exercises that why should it be fair that someone completely afk can affect the game in the same way as someone who's not afk. I agree with the OP that it's about as fair as allowing botters.
I figure if it does become a problem for me, I'd just start doing things a little bit differently, as a lot of people have suggested. That doesn't make it any more fair that afkers are getting an advantage without even playing the game.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:14:00 -
[48]
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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MeBiatch
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
my point too... 0.0 is carebear land... i think afk cloak should stay but also give me delayed local...
if you dont want to die do this:
1: make bk at all belts (i do about 70km from pin) 2: make a ss or better yet have a pos 3: log in your alt in a falcon (make sure is is cloaked near you) 4: make sure you are allways aligned to the ss or pos 5: right click highlight ss and keep cursor over it 6: dude uncloaks tries to lock you down a: warp b: if you cant warp decloak the falcon and jam him then warp
do this and you will be fine ratting in 0.0...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:21:00 -
[50]
Originally by: mkmin You're right... because the EULA could be broken, every thing that could be botted should just be locked down. Whoops, you can bot the login? Let's shut that down too!
Ah, yes, taking everything through highly specific cased down to its absurd final conclusion, nice... There's no point in adding a new feature designed to combat a tiny minority of players when you can easily circumvent that method in undetectable ways while also harming legitimate players that do not fit in the target category, all the while the entire rationale for even adding that being up for debate. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: mkmin
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: mkmin Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
Good luck detecting THAT. It's virtually indistinguishable from a person barely paying attention to the game but still around.
You're right... because the EULA could be broken, every thing that could be botted should just be locked down. Whoops, you can bot the login? Let's shut that down too!
At least think about it for a minute, before dismissing what Akita T said.
There are perfectly legit programs out there, that stop the screen saver from kicking in. They are completely unrelated to Eve, so how could you say they are breaking the EULA?
I'm not sure how long you've argued about this topic, but some of us are seasoned veterans on the subject. We've seen almost every idea possible. As yet I've yet to see an idea that works, other than the removal of local in null sec.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Serenthris Landry
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:35:00 -
[52]
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Soi Mala WAH
Spam removed. Zymurgist
SOMEONE CALL THE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHMBULANCE
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Josefine Etrange
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:53:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: mkmin Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
Good luck detecting THAT. It's virtually indistinguishable from a person barely paying attention to the game but still around.
Than your problem seems anyway not to be that someone is afk cloaked. Your problem is, that your ****ting your pants because that dude in your local which is not blue. If that dude would be NOT afk for hours, you would be even more scared. Hmm. Sounds like fun.
Actually I do that anyway, watching people and uncloak right on the top of them ;-) But well, I am a strange person with a sick sense of humour.
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War Kitten
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Posted - 2011.04.02 19:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33 I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
Fail analogy - you're not cloaked or afk with the 45, nor does a character own the solar system people cloak in. But if you stand in my living room with a 45 I'll kick your ass, take it from you, and send you packing.
Quote:
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
More failure to analogize, but whatever. You go right ahead and stand outside my job with a 45, I'll keep working and making money.
Quote:
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
Yes, logically 100% of eve players will stop playing the game. Well, if they were cowards anyway. The counters have been given to you in this thread. Pay attention.
Quote:
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
Actually there are people suggesting it - but they're just as afraid of playing the whole game as you are. Suck it up cupcake and learn to deal with the threat. Be happy that you at least know the threat is there in local. Wormholes don't have that luxury, and what do you do if he logs off in your system? He's not there anymore at all - or is he? Did his whole fleet logoffski? Will you ban logging off next?
To recap: - AFK cloakers are no threat by definition of AFK. - Cloakers are no threat by themselves if you learn to align and pay attention.
Or were you trying to AFK rat?
Quote:
Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.
Flames + answers, you get everything you asked for :)
"Here's your sign..."
If you don't get it, look it up. Somebody didn't like me doing it for you.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.02 21:10:00 -
[56]
TBH I find it hilarious how religiously people defend afk cloaking. With the current mechanics surrounding covert cynos and the fact that you can't actually TELL if someone's afk, the ability to sit in someone else's system 100% safe for any amount of time is rather silly. It's as bad as the people defending the lack of agression on salvage by saying that carebears are too safe as it is. You can't defend an activity that is essentially without risk by claiming that said activity provides a needed risk to something else.
As far as removing/delaying local in 0.0 goes, the only way that would be an even remotely reasonable suggestion is if they either made space easier to defend OR made the available isk in nullsec much higher than it is now. It works in WH space because of generally low base numbers and how difficult it is to access in the first place, put something like that into 0.0 and it'd be impossible to make isk for all but the largest alliances. I'm not actually AGAINST these sorts of changes, but simply nerfing local would kill all of the smaller alliances trying to get a start out in nullsec, you just can't give ALL the advantages to the attacker it makes it impossible to defend. |
Feligast
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.04.02 21:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cambarus TBH I find it hilarious how religiously people defend afk cloaking. With the current mechanics surrounding covert cynos and the fact that you can't actually TELL if someone's afk, the ability to sit in someone else's system 100% safe for any amount of time is rather silly. It's as bad as the people defending the lack of agression on salvage by saying that carebears are too safe as it is. You can't defend an activity that is essentially without risk by claiming that said activity provides a needed risk to something else.
Both of which are working 100% as intended. Good point!
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.04.02 21:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cambarus TBH I find it hilarious how religiously people defend afk cloaking. With the current mechanics surrounding covert cynos and the fact that you can't actually TELL if someone's afk, the ability to sit in someone else's system 100% safe for any amount of time is rather silly. It's as bad as the people defending the lack of agression on salvage by saying that carebears are too safe as it is. You can't defend an activity that is essentially without risk by claiming that said activity provides a needed risk to something else.
As far as removing/delaying local in 0.0 goes, the only way that would be an even remotely reasonable suggestion is if they either made space easier to defend OR made the available isk in nullsec much higher than it is now. It works in WH space because of generally low base numbers and how difficult it is to access in the first place, put something like that into 0.0 and it'd be impossible to make isk for all but the largest alliances. I'm not actually AGAINST these sorts of changes, but simply nerfing local would kill all of the smaller alliances trying to get a start out in nullsec, you just can't give ALL the advantages to the attacker it makes it impossible to defend.
Don't worry... sooner or later CCP will make it so only people in an alliance with their mushroom stamp of approval will get access to local. I mean, didn't you know? EVE is played in hotel rooms in Iceland, not on the internet.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.02 21:45:00 -
[59]
This again? Sweet.
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AFK Cloaker
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.02 22:04:00 -
[60]
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.04.02 22:07:00 -
[61]
- - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
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Kinta Huron
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Posted - 2011.04.03 00:53:00 -
[62]
Get the **** outa 0.0 you don't belong there you ****in suckhole!!!
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Discrodia
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
The chair speaks! Fear it's holy, afk wrath!
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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samurai712
Gallente Corax. Everto Rex Regis
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Posted - 2011.04.03 03:34:00 -
[64]
if you cannot deal with how people play in nullsec, move to hisec.
now STFU and have fun ratting Serpantis atrons in Balle.
o7 -sam |
Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.04.03 03:40:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.
I get it! Because game mechanics equal real life threats. That makes sense, thanks! Now I see the true evil of AFK cloaking.
But wait? What about PVP? How totally messed up is THAT?
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.04.03 05:23:00 -
[66]
His quote is a bit wrong.
The real comparison is like this.
Imagine you are a l33t gears of wars soldier, with a lancer , shotgun, 4 grenades.
Now imagine if a grunt with a broomstick were to hide on top of your roof just making noise.
The grunt cant really kill you. it can only make noise on the roof, afterall, you have a lancer and could chainsaw it to death.
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Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.04.03 05:44:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Miss Krunk on 03/04/2011 05:44:50 The thing you guys are overlooking is that you don't know if the guy in local IS actually AFK. You don't know what he's flying and you don't know if he can cyno. If he is afk, you don't know when is going to be coming back. He is a threat, because you can't know that he isn't.
Also, to those who want to say there should be danger in EvE, explain to me why the guy sitting in enemy territory for however long he feels like should be the guy in the least amount of danger.
Want to make EAF's usefull, give them a means of probing down cloakers. An attentive cloaker still won't get caught, but a stupid or afk one will be found, popped and salvaged.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.03 06:08:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Josefine Etrange
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: mkmin Um... then that would be botting to get a PVP advantage, rather than getting an active PVP advantage from not playing, and hopefully get their accounts banned. Sounds fair to me.
Good luck detecting THAT. It's virtually indistinguishable from a person barely paying attention to the game but still around.
Than your problem seems anyway not to be that someone is afk cloaked. Your problem is, that your ****ting your pants because that dude in your local which is not blue. If that dude would be NOT afk for hours, you would be even more scared. Hmm. Sounds like fun. Actually I do that anyway, watching people and uncloak right on the top of them ;-) But well, I am a strange person with a sick sense of humour.
I think you either got those pronouns wrong or somehow misunderstood my position on the matter... _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:20:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: baltec1 Then people will afk in umprobable ships while bombers become near useless thanks to your nerfing of their range.
Or you can grow some balls and show everyone you are a hull tanker without 30man support behind you.
Forget it, I was just joking. You can dock again until you can outnumber.
Newsflash!
I fly a solo bomber deep in enemy space with no backup and have the balls to attack battleships in a system with 50+ people in it. I also have the cheek to blow up haulers sitting under the nose of multiple supercaps. Meanwhile bears such as yourself are flooding to the forums to complain about me being AFK while I read your whines.
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Rhadia
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:28:00 -
[70]
You guys ever wondered what happens when an entire corporation of cloaky ships moves into your system?
Try telling me how that one's balanced.
When it's just one, it's a minor nuisance depending on skill level. When it's 20+ with recon support and cloaked bubblers, they own your system.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 07:29:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Rhadia You guys ever wondered what happens when an entire corporation of cloaky ships moves into your system?
Try telling me how that one's balanced.
When it's just one, it's a minor nuisance depending on skill level. When it's 20+ with recon support and cloaked bubblers, they own your system.
When a gang of 20+ anything enter your system you stop making isk...
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.04.03 08:33:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33 I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
You're not in my living room. This is a game.
Quote:
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
You're playing a game, not going to work. So, stop complaining that you're not able to work. You're also playing a game that promotes stealing, murder, asset denial. So when someone denies you access your system purely psychologically, HTFU.
Quote:
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?
Wrong. Let me re-adjust those figures. < 1% sit afk cloaking and 50% sit in station. Which of those two groups is the problem?
Quote:
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.
I do believe the control is the afk cloaker to which the counter is undocking from station. Jesus Christ man! You don't seriously expect me to believe that when there is someone in local you don't know that you don't leave station?!? WTF are you in nullsec? You Sir, are a slave to your own fears, not the afk cloaker. Free your mind. Go to w-space and learn how to exist without local. Learn to survive in an environment where death is all but assured.
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2011.04.03 08:51:00 -
[73]
There should be one hound in every system. Whats the excitement otherwise
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Cloned S0ul
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Posted - 2011.04.03 10:02:00 -
[74]
Stop whine about afk cloakers, people pay a monthly fee so they have rights to play like they want, some players spam jita local with scam 24/7 because this is eve and you can do what you want with no limit.
And btw you never have idea about player who use cloak in system, he can be always online while cloak enable.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 13:13:00 -
[75]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 13:13:21
Originally by: Akita T How about if EVERY ship would require fuel just to move in space ? No, make that "use fuel to refill capacitor", and put a cap usage on cloaks, and also put a cap usage on simply moving around. HAPPY NOW ?
Originally by: Akita T Ah, yes, taking everything through highly specific cased down to its absurd final conclusion, nice...
Irony, anyone?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.04.03 13:18:00 -
[76]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Irony, anyone?
Don't you mean hypocrisy ? _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.04.03 13:53:00 -
[77]
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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Selinate
Amarr Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:02:00 -
[78]
Dear God, I love my Anathema and the sweet tears it brings.
Put an unnamed corp on alert one time with it for a while. Cursing Russians are hilarious Russians.
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cRazYf1St
tempered steel
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:08:00 -
[79]
IMO if you are AFK for a set amount of time then there should be something so you can hunt them down with or some mechanic in place so they aren't invulnerable.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:15:00 -
[80]
Originally by: cRazYf1St IMO if you are AFK for a set amount of time then there should be something so you can hunt them down with or some mechanic in place so they aren't invulnerable.
Set a trap and continue to rat?
If they are afk then nothing will happen,if they are active then you will kill them.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:41:00 -
[81]
I would welcome, with open arms, removal of cloaked ships from local, if CCP introduced some kind of counter to cloaks. Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe (unprobable ships are not 100% safe if they stay in one place directional will kill them), the only other place where you are 100% safe is a station, even that might change with incarna. It's irony that escapes most of you. You want everyone to be in risk, while the one causing that risk to be risk free.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 14:58:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara I would welcome, with open arms, removal of cloaked ships from local, if CCP introduced some kind of counter to cloaks. Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe (unprobable ships are not 100% safe if they stay in one place directional will kill them), the only other place where you are 100% safe is a station, even that might change with incarna. It's irony that escapes most of you. You want everyone to be in risk, while the one causing that risk to be risk free.
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:13:00 -
[83]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara I would welcome, with open arms, removal of cloaked ships from local, if CCP introduced some kind of counter to cloaks. Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe (unprobable ships are not 100% safe if they stay in one place directional will kill them), the only other place where you are 100% safe is a station, even that might change with incarna. It's irony that escapes most of you. You want everyone to be in risk, while the one causing that risk to be risk free.
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
Hello! Covert cyno?!
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
Hello! Covert cyno?!
This means two things. One, he was not AFK and two, he is not cloaked. This is when you spring the trap.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You are also risk free in your ratting raven while the red in local is cloaked up because that little bomber can not do anything to hurt you.
Hello! Covert cyno?!
This means two things. One, he was not AFK and two, he is not cloaked. This is when you spring the trap.
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:23:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Mag''s on 03/04/2011 15:24:45
Originally by: Cambarus the ability to sit in someone else's system 100% safe for any amount of time is rather silly.
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe.
The chances of finding someone cloaked is extremely small, but the fact that there is a chance means it's not 100%.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:25:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:27:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 03/04/2011 15:24:45
Originally by: Cambarus the ability to sit in someone else's system 100% safe for any amount of time is rather silly.
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Now if you cloak up you are 100% safe.
The chances of finding someone cloaked is extremely small, but the fact that there is a chance means it's not 100%.
Ok, share your story of how you found cloaked up, safed up ship, decloaked it and killed it.
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Leeluvv
The Black Ops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:28:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Leeluvv on 03/04/2011 15:28:46 Just spend some time in a wormhole. Not only do you not know if there is an AFK cloaker, you don't know if there's an AFK Fleet. Anyway, here are some hints, they won't keep you safe, but they will minimize the chance of being ganked.
1. Use combat probes and remove all known entities from scan results. Rescan every 10 seconds and use DScan as well.
2. Be aligned when possible, so you can insta-warp out if someone decloaks near you.
3. Have friends in system and get them to behave as if they are active and alert, looking for a hostile so they can shoot it.
4. Just buy GTC and sell them, cos you obviously suck at making ISK anyway.
Originally by: Doctor Mabuse A wife is just a T2 GF. They're more expensive and their resists are higher
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
àand then you kill him. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Ok, share your story of how you found cloaked up, safed up ship, decloaked it and killed it.
I know you're upset and in a rage, but my maths is correct.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:32:00 -
[92]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
Sure no problem, it's so easy to have fleet ready 24/7. Even then a fleet of black ops or sb's have a huge dps, you'll be dead before you can say "boy, i wish that afk cloaker were afk forever". Your fleet might warp to you and catch some straggler, but most likely they will warp out and cloak up before you can react.
Not to mention how is it reasonable for afk player to make friends at the keyboard necessary for survival.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:34:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Ok, share your story of how you found cloaked up, safed up ship, decloaked it and killed it.
I know you're upset and in a rage, but my maths is correct.
I'm not upset and I'm not in a rage, I am merely curious about your secret super power to decloak cloaked ships in a safe spot.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:36:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Leeluvv Edited by: Leeluvv on 03/04/2011 15:28:46 Just spend some time in a wormhole. Not only do you not know if there is an AFK cloaker, you don't know if there's an AFK Fleet. Anyway, here are some hints, they won't keep you safe, but they will minimize the chance of being ganked.
1. Use combat probes and remove all known entities from scan results. Rescan every 10 seconds and use DScan as well.
2. Be aligned when possible, so you can insta-warp out if someone decloaks near you.
3. Have friends in system and get them to behave as if they are active and alert, looking for a hostile so they can shoot it.
4. Just buy GTC and sell them, cos you obviously suck at making ISK anyway.
1. Wormholes are way harder to access, therefore less hostiles. 2. Higher rewards.
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Selinate
Amarr Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:38:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Leeluvv Edited by: Leeluvv on 03/04/2011 15:28:46 Just spend some time in a wormhole. Not only do you not know if there is an AFK cloaker, you don't know if there's an AFK Fleet. Anyway, here are some hints, they won't keep you safe, but they will minimize the chance of being ganked.
1. Use combat probes and remove all known entities from scan results. Rescan every 10 seconds and use DScan as well.
2. Be aligned when possible, so you can insta-warp out if someone decloaks near you.
3. Have friends in system and get them to behave as if they are active and alert, looking for a hostile so they can shoot it.
4. Just buy GTC and sell them, cos you obviously suck at making ISK anyway.
1. Wormholes are way harder to access, therefore less hostiles. 2. Higher rewards.
Wormholes are way harder to access... wtf are you smoking?
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baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:38:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
Sure no problem, it's so easy to have fleet ready 24/7. Even then a fleet of black ops or sb's have a huge dps, you'll be dead before you can say "boy, i wish that afk cloaker were afk forever". Your fleet might warp to you and catch some straggler, but most likely they will warp out and cloak up before you can react.
Not to mention how is it reasonable for afk player to make friends at the keyboard necessary for survival.
If you cannot protect your space you do not deserver to keep it. I guess you find it impossible to get a thrasher or three together which can alpha a bomber each
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:39:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Mag''s on 03/04/2011 15:39:23
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Ok, share your story of how you found cloaked up, safed up ship, decloaked it and killed it.
I know you're upset and in a rage, but my maths is correct.
I'm not upset and I'm not in a rage, I am merely curious about your secret super power to decloak cloaked ships in a safe spot.
I was correcting your factually incorrect statement. Emotions tends to cloud people's judgement.
I and many other have no issues with cloakers, maybe you should look within yourself for the real underlying problem.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Selinate
Wormholes are way harder to access... wtf are you smoking?
Ok a little harder to access. You need to probe them out. You cant just set your destination and go there.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:42:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 03/04/2011 15:39:23
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Ok, share your story of how you found cloaked up, safed up ship, decloaked it and killed it.
I know you're upset and in a rage, but my maths is correct.
I'm not upset and I'm not in a rage, I am merely curious about your secret super power to decloak cloaked ships in a safe spot.
I was correcting your factually incorrect statement. Emotions tends to cloud people's judgement.
I and many other have no issues with cloakers, maybe you should look within yourself for the real underlying problem.
Ok, ok, there is no 100% probabilities, but for all intents and purposes cloaked up ships are invulnerable.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:44:00 -
[100]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
You don't know when he's afk and when he's not. He can sit there whole day and just when you think its safe he can come back for 5 minutes light a cyno and unleash hell.
So keep your defences ready all day?
Sure no problem, it's so easy to have fleet ready 24/7. Even then a fleet of black ops or sb's have a huge dps, you'll be dead before you can say "boy, i wish that afk cloaker were afk forever". Your fleet might warp to you and catch some straggler, but most likely they will warp out and cloak up before you can react.
Not to mention how is it reasonable for afk player to make friends at the keyboard necessary for survival.
If you cannot protect your space you do not deserver to keep it. I guess you find it impossible to get a thrasher or three together which can alpha a bomber each
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
Can it alpha all the cloaky ships? No. Plus your advice would require those thrashers to tag along wherever you go, doing nothing but dying of boredom.
And I could find a cane, therefore I could kill it.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:48:00 -
[101]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 15:51:19
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
Can it alpha all the cloaky ships? No. Plus your advice would require those thrashers to tag along wherever you go, doing nothing but dying of boredom.
And I could find a cane, therefore I could kill it.
I can hide a typhoon in a system with probing ships looking for me forever, its not that hard. Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
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Selinate
Amarr Red Water Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.03 15:50:00 -
[102]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
Can it alpha all the cloaky ships? No. Plus your advice would require those thrashers to tag along wherever you go, doing nothing but dying of boredom.
And I could find a cane, therefore I could kill it.
I can hide a thyphoon in a system with probing ships looking for me forever, its not that hard. Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
confirming that it can be a ***** to find any type of ship in a system, depending on the pilot.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:54:00 -
[103]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 15:51:19
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
A single cane can shut down a system just as effectivly as a bomber and take on many more targets.
Can it alpha all the cloaky ships? No. Plus your advice would require those thrashers to tag along wherever you go, doing nothing but dying of boredom.
And I could find a cane, therefore I could kill it.
I can hide a typhoon in a system with probing ships looking for me forever, its not that hard. Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
At least you would be active and I would even get a kick out of trying to catch you.
With afk cloaker, I can either accept the extra risk and and rat anyway, or go afk myself. If I rat anyway, the extra risk reduces my net income, due higher possibility of losing ship. So why does afk player is able to reduce everyone's income in the system he inhabits.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:56:00 -
[104]
Originally by: baltec1 Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
Unless you're an AFK cloaker. That shouldn't apply to them because well, when we say we want 0.0 to be scary and unforgiving to those not paying attention we really mean that for our enemies, not ourselves.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:01:00 -
[105]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1 Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
Unless you're an AFK cloaker. That shouldn't apply to them because well, when we say we want 0.0 to be scary and unforgiving to those not paying attention we really mean that for our enemies, not ourselves.
We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
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Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:02:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara If I rat anyway, the extra risk reduces my net income, due higher possibility of losing ship. So why does afk player is able to reduce everyone's income in the system he inhabits.
If you sit in station or go afk your net income drops to zero. It is you that makes the decision to earn isk or not, not a cloaked hostile in system. ---
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:04:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara If I rat anyway, the extra risk reduces my net income, due higher possibility of losing ship. So why does afk player is able to reduce everyone's income in the system he inhabits.
If you sit in station or go afk your net income drops to zero. It is you that makes the decision to earn isk or not, not a cloaked hostile in system.
My income drops even if I choose to stay and earn isk. So I'm always on the losing side there, no matter what.
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Sem Nan
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:04:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Mag's
Hehehe.. whenever i see this topic appear again, i know i'll find this guy inside
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:06:00 -
[109]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1 Also yes, you should be ready to defend yourself at all times in 0.0.
Unless you're an AFK cloaker. That shouldn't apply to them because well, when we say we want 0.0 to be scary and unforgiving to those not paying attention we really mean that for our enemies, not ourselves.
We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
No if you choose your targets wisely. You know in advance how the pve ships are fitted, you know of any tank holes, your victim is already tanking the whole fleet of rats.
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baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:09:00 -
[110]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 16:10:23
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
No if you choose your targets wisely. You know in advance how the pve ships are fitted, you know of any tank holes, your victim is already tanking the whole fleet of rats.
90% of the time I am attacking them on a gate and even with then attacking rats if they have light drones I am forced to run. Also how are you earning less isk? Do bombers in local nerf bounties?
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:10:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sem Nan
Originally by: Mag's
Hehehe.. whenever i see this topic appear again, i know i'll find this guy inside
I like pushing buttons.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:10:00 -
[112]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:11:30
Originally by: baltec1 We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
AFK cloakers have ZERO chances of engaging in an encounter they choose not to. If an AFK cloaker lost his ship is because he chose to engage and lost that engagement for whatever other reason. No one is unable to bring PVP to an AFK cloaker in 0.0 if he wishes not to engage in it.
You could have a gang of 100 pilots waiting 24/7 for a gang of AFK cloakers to CHOOSE to PVP and the engagement will only happen when the AFK cloakers CHOOSE to engage. You could set traps, you could do whatever you want. But the engagement is happening on the time and day the AFK cloaker chooses to.
There should be a way to bring unconsensual PVP to AFK cloakers in the same way a gang of AFK cloakers are able to bring unconsensual PVP to others.
Mind you, I'm not saying remove risk. I'm saying ADD risk to EVERYONE in space and in 0.0, not just your enemies, but EVERYONE, indluding AFK cloakers, since they ARE NOT paying attention the majority of the time.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:16:00 -
[113]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 16:10:23
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
No if you choose your targets wisely. You know in advance how the pve ships are fitted, you know of any tank holes, your victim is already tanking the whole fleet of rats.
90% of the time I am attacking them on a gate and even with then attacking rats if they have light drones I am forced to run. Also how are you earning less isk? Do bombers in local nerf bounties?
T3 pve ships have no light drones. And tengu is one of the best ships for killing rats. Bombers increase risk, so I lose my ship more often, so even though I earn the same, my costs are higher.
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baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:16:00 -
[114]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:11:30
Originally by: baltec1 We bomber pilots have more risk when attacking in our paper thin ships so it evens out
AFK cloakers have ZERO chances of engaging in an encounter they choose not to. If an AFK cloaker lost his ship is because he chose to engage and lost that engagement for whatever other reason. No one is unable to bring PVP to an AFK cloaker in 0.0 if he wishes not to engage in it.
You could have a gang of 100 pilots waiting 24/7 for a gang of AFK cloakers to CHOOSE to PVP and the engagement will only happen when the AFK cloakers CHOOSE to engage. You could set traps, you could do whatever you want. But the engagement is happening on the time and day the AFK cloaker chooses to.
There should be a way to bring unconsensual PVP to AFK cloakers in the same way a gang of AFK cloakers are able to bring unconsensual PVP to others.
Mind you, I'm not saying remove risk. I'm saying ADD risk to EVERYONE in space and in 0.0, not just your enemies, but EVERYONE, indluding AFK cloakers, since they ARE NOT paying attention the majority of the time.
There are so many ways to kill my bomber that in a system with a good corp the chances of getting a kill is slim. I might be able to warp around cloaked but I do pay a price in my very limited target list.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:18:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
T3 pve ships have no light drones. And tengu is one of the best ships for killing rats. Bombers increase risk, so I lose my ship more often, so even though I earn the same, my costs are higher.
It also has heavy missiles which will rip a bomber apart. If you get killed in a tengu by a bomber then you are doing something very very wrong.
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Dr Richard Dawkins
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:21:00 -
[116]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
There should be a way to bring unconsensual PVP to AFK cloakers in the same way a gang of AFK cloakers are able to bring unconsensual PVP to others.
The problem with this:
-bombers are paper thin and countered by the cheapest ships in the game -bombers are required to target very specific ship types (big ones, preferably with the correct resist hole)
You can't simply point at the covert-cloak ships and say "man, no fair, they can't be as easily camped out of my system!" Because that's the entire point. They're DESIGNED to be hard to keep out. They're disigned to use suprise as a tanking method. Most of these posts showcase a genuine lack of knowledge about how sb's pick their targets.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:25:00 -
[117]
I don't even have a problem with a cloaker being 100% safe in space as long as he is at the keyboard cloaked and stalking prey.
But being able to spend days in outside 0.0 space without having to pay attention, go to the movies, to school, work, pizza parlor, whatever, and not be even in 1 ounce of risk is unacceptable in my books. All those while forcing everyone else to remain on their toes. EVERYONE in 0.0 space should have to be on their toes, including AFK cloakers. With the current mechanics they don't have to be. And that's just wrong.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:28:00 -
[118]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 I don't even have a problem with a docked player being 100% safe in station as long as he is at the keyboard docked and stalking prey.
But being able to spend days in 0.0 system without having to pay attention, go to the movies, to school, work, pizza parlor, whatever, and not be even in 1 ounce of risk is unacceptable in my books. All those while forcing everyone else to remain on their toes. EVERYONE in 0.0 space should have to be on their toes, including AFK docked players. With the current mechanics they don't have to be. And that's just wrong.
Fixed.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:30:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Dr Richard Dawkins
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
There should be a way to bring unconsensual PVP to AFK cloakers in the same way a gang of AFK cloakers are able to bring unconsensual PVP to others.
The problem with this:
-bombers are paper thin and countered by the cheapest ships in the game -bombers are required to target very specific ship types (big ones, preferably with the correct resist hole)
You can't simply point at the covert-cloak ships and say "man, no fair, they can't be as easily camped out of my system!" Because that's the entire point. They're DESIGNED to be hard to keep out. They're disigned to use suprise as a tanking method. Most of these posts showcase a genuine lack of knowledge about how sb's pick their targets.
1. A gang of bombers can have a devastatingly powerful alpha on average ships. 2. Bombers aren't the only ships capable of AFK cloaking. 3. Covert cynos can bring the pain. 4. Assuming you're limiting this debate to a lonely bomber that has narror taget possibilites, that still does not warrant it to be 100% safe from unconsensual PVP. After all, I'm sure you don't expect a lone hulk to be immune to PVP just because it is only able to attack a very narrow line of ships (if even).
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:34:00 -
[120]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:34:44
Originally by: baltec1 Fixed.
No. You didn't fix anything. What you did do, however, is set up what is known as a red herring.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:38:00 -
[121]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:34:44
Originally by: baltec1 Fixed.
No. You didn't fix anything. What you did do, however, is set up what is known as a red herring.
Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local, both are AFK, both can pop up at any time and attack something. The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
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Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:48:00 -
[122]
I've been trying to educate myself on all things sig radius related and stumbled across this statement on another site:
Originally by: Don Won Target size is calculated as sig radius / sensor strength. The smaller your ship's target size, the harder it is for people to probe you down. Below 1.08012498 no one in game can scan you out.
For an unscannable Tengu handy for low/null-sec missioning you'd need: Gravimetric Backup Array II (low-slot) ECCM - Gravimetric II x2 (mid-slots) And nothing that increases sig radius i.e. MWD usage.
That quote is from May 2010, so I'm not sure if it's still accurate (if it was accurate at the time). But if it is correct, then doesn't that make the discussion of nerfing cloaks irrelevant? If an uncloaked ship can be fitted so as to be not probed down, that makes the discussion of cloaks moot, no? The supposed "problem" has to do with sig radius, sensor strength &etc. And that would be a whole different kettle of fish.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:50:00 -
[123]
Originally by: baltec1 Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local
Yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both are AFK
Could be, yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both can pop up at any time and attack something.
No. Someone in station cannot just pop up next to a target and attack it almost instananeuously. He would need to undock and LOCATE the target while also it being able to be located. That makes a huge difference.
Originally by: baltec1 The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
You cannot project a threat to a docked Machariel and the Machariel cannot project a threat on to you either. When it undocks it would need to spend time looking for you and you have that same opportunity to scan the Mach down.
A cloaked ship CAN project a threat but no one can project a threat onto it. In other words a claoked ship in space can bring instant unconsensual PVP to any ship in space the pilot chooses, but the same cannot be done to it.
But you know this already .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.04.03 16:57:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Rhadia You guys ever wondered what happens when an entire corporation of cloaky ships moves into your system?
Try telling me how that one's balanced.
When it's just one, it's a minor nuisance depending on skill level. When it's 20+ with recon support and cloaked bubblers, they own your system.
Working as intended...
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:00:00 -
[125]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1 Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local
Yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both are AFK
Could be, yes.
Originally by: baltec1 both can pop up at any time and attack something.
No. Someone in station cannot just pop up next to a target and attack it almost instananeuously. He would need to undock and LOCATE the target while also it being able to be located. That makes a huge difference.
Originally by: baltec1 The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
You cannot project a threat to a docked Machariel and the Machariel cannot project a threat on to you either. When it undocks it would need to spend time looking for you and you have that same opportunity to scan the Mach down.
A cloaked ship CAN project a threat but no one can project a threat onto it. In other words a claoked ship in space can bring instant unconsensual PVP to any ship in space the pilot chooses, but the same cannot be done to it.
But you know this already .
In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:14:00 -
[126]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:14:36
Originally by: baltec1 In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.
You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.
You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things .
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Grog Barrel
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:18:00 -
[127]
Originally by: baltec1
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
All the alternative ways require manpower. AFK cloaking not. I won't even be doing metion about the risk/reward part.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:23:00 -
[128]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
T3 pve ships have no light drones. And tengu is one of the best ships for killing rats. Bombers increase risk, so I lose my ship more often, so even though I earn the same, my costs are higher.
It also has heavy missiles which will rip a bomber apart. If you get killed in a tengu by a bomber then you are doing something very very wrong.
It also has no way to hold the ship, so it doesn't warp off when the things start looking grim.
In any case why are you so focused on bomber. "Look the weakest ship with covert ops cloak is weak, who cares that pilgrim with it's neutralizers would **** any active ratting ship (which is every single decent ratting ship)"
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:27:00 -
[129]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:23:01
Originally by: baltec1 In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.
You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.
You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things . And yet you expect me to remain vigiliant and have that fleet on standby, all while you're at the parlor having some pizza.
I face risk every time I engage someone in pvp. Its not my falt you make life easy for me. There are several ways to AFK camp a system and yet more for people who are not AFK. The only way you stop being scared of an AFK player is if local is removed, then you cant see the harmless AFK players.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:30:00 -
[130]
Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 17:31:59
Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: baltec1
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
All the alternative ways require manpower. AFK cloaking not. I won't even be doing metion about the risk/reward part.
A pos needs to be refueled every month or so while the tengu is even easyer than a bomber to use because you do not even have to push a button to be immune to probes.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:40:00 -
[131]
Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.
God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.04.03 17:44:00 -
[132]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.
God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).
When in my bomber I spend most of my time sittig still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?
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Thalis Malu
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Posted - 2011.04.03 18:35:00 -
[133]
I find it funny that as certain "sections" of null become seas of blue we get crap like this.
Wonder how long until someone begins begging for a CONCORD sov upgrade.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.03 19:00:00 -
[134]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.
God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).
When in my bomber I spend most of my time sitting still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?
You will be an innocent bystander. But that'll teach you, right?
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Nemesis Factor
Caldari Telanus' Reach
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Posted - 2011.04.03 19:09:00 -
[135]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.
God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).
I agree that posing an ACTUAL threat to a system should require me at the helm, but simply providing the illusion that I'm doing so should not. I AFK cloak in a friggin unarmed frigate on an alt while I'm at work/school and play on my main. My target system is in 0 danger, but they still rarely venture out. The problem is not with the way the game works the problem is with the inhabitants being pussies.
BTW, I rat in a domi with neuts in my highs and heavy ECM drones in my bays. There is no single ship that can take it down. ==================== ~/~ Sultan of Buruni |
Kalain ap'Sulen
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2011.04.03 19:34:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33 I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.
You aren't cloaked in any of those situations so none of your following points or comparisons really mean ****. Quando ami flunkus morti. |
Gimpb
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2011.04.03 19:57:00 -
[137]
Never have understood why people get upset about it. Given all the ways other people can mess with you in this game, afk cloaking seems like small potatoes. People can mess with you in eve, it's the way of the game, and you can return the favor (perhaps not to the individual, but certainly to their political organization).
It's a way to make local a less dependable danger detector for a system. A person could do the exact same thing by bouncing safespots or using a low sp alt in a cheap unprobable frigate that's not worth finding the hard way. The only real difference I see is you don't have to be there all the time to do the afk cloaking. So the question is, should opposing players have something that tells them if you are actively doing stuff at the moment or if you are just chilling? In my opinion, no, they should have to work for that information or live without it.
It's one way small scale fights get started in 0.0 and low sec. We have precious few game mechanics that create those types of fights already, removing one of them doesn't seem like a great idea.
Note: I can't recall any specific time where I AFK cloaked for the purpose of disrupting others farming but I have certainly had to deal with it... and it didn't bother me, I see it the same way as I see someone roaming through the system.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.03 23:29:00 -
[138]
Originally by: baltec1 When in my bomber I spend most of my time sittig still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?
First, let's be honest here. You've already admitted you're an AFK cloaker here:
Originally by: baltec1 I afk in my bomber.
So no, you wouldn't be an innocent bystander .
Second, I would do it personally? I'd add an expensive-to-use consumable cloak-detecting probe, extremely difficult to use (and train for) and that it is broadcast system-wide that it is being used. I would have it take 5 minutes to spit out a warpable that's within say, 10 km in accuracy. That way, if you are cloaked and NOT AFK you'll know 5 minutes ahead of time that if you don't move there'll be a chance to find you, however slim. If you're AFK cloaked and on the move, then a second probe can be deployed and trace your trajectory, that would again, take 5 minutes to track you down.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 23:37:00 -
[139]
àand the question remains: why not just fix local?
"AFK cloaking" is a counter to local, and if the two are imbalanced, you fix the first so the second isn't needed. You don't add a counter-counter, because then you're just adding additional layers of imbalance. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
AristotleOnassis
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Posted - 2011.04.03 23:53:00 -
[140]
Since when afk cloakers is 100% safe.
You can easily field a billion ships, and move through every single inch in the universe. That way, eventually you will bump into him and kill him.
Of course, the easier way is to keep alligned at all times.
Even bombers takes 6 seconds to start shooting/cyno, and well over 2 seconds to warp in as they appear on overview. This is more then enough time to warp out if you are alligned.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 00:10:00 -
[141]
Quote: BTW: comparing AFK cloaking to any kind of real life scenario? Horribly stupid.
Because in real life no one has weapons that are immune to radar or sonar. Thank god.
R O F L .
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Mel Lifera
Gallente Ambrye Logistics Ltd.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 01:14:00 -
[142]
Can anyone honestly prove the cloaker is actually AFK?
Of course not.
So this is actually a while about cloaking, not AFK cloaking.
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Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.04.04 01:21:00 -
[143]
I too wish I could have risk free moneybearing in lawless space. CCP are insane not to listen to my reasonable concern. ---
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 01:22:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Tippia àand the question remains: why not just fix local?
"AFK cloaking" is a counter to local, and if the two are imbalanced, you fix the first so the second isn't needed. You don't add a counter-counter, because then you're just adding additional layers of imbalance.
If by "fixing local" you mean getting rid of it with nothing to replace it, well, it's not gonna happen. CCP has been clear on this. It will be replaced by a more information-imperfect system, but it WILL be replaced. And if this is what you're advocating for, then I'm NOT on board.
If, on the other hand, you mean "fix" as in replace with a different system then I'm all for it, as long as it:
1. Keeps things pretty balanced and fair (not a buttsex-surprise orgy against alert PVE'ers). If one side is being forced to buddy up with a fleet to stay safe then so should the other side. 2. Everyone (including AFK cloaker) faces real tangible and unconsensual risk. None of this "U-SHUD-HAV-FRIENDZ-2-PROTECT-U-24/7-I-SHULDNT-HAV-TO" BS.
And most importantly (IMO),
3. AFK-cloaking needs to be replaced by a mechanic that can efficiently accomplish a reduction of alliance space if said alliance isn't capable of defend it; Not the half-ass joke bull **** it accomplishes now, which is pretty much petty lul-kills while being able to safe up for days on end with no risk to the cloaker.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Renan Ruivo
Caldari Hipernova Tribal Conclave
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Posted - 2011.04.04 03:39:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Renan Ruivo on 04/04/2011 03:39:19 Arazu sits in cloak, waits for one, two, five, ten, thirty (hey, i've seen month-long cloakers..) for pve ships to try their luck. Raven undocks/leaves pos and starts ratting. AFK cloakers quits AFK without anyone knowing, finds Raven, warps to it under cloak. Waits for it to be aggroed by a ****load of rats.
Starts chronometer: exits cloak, tackles raven, cycles covcyno and then cancels it, blackops locks onto it, SB's jump, blackops jump to random point on system (effectively generating safespot), cloaks, SB's lock onto raven, SB's release a hail of torpedo fire, Raven goes BOOM, SB's cloak up and fly left;right;up;down, then warps to 30/40/50/70km of whatever stellar body under cloak. Stops chronometer. less than 20 seconds have passed. Raven is dead, and all covops ships are safed up. Blackops waits for the cap to recharge. Cap recharges. Command is given for SB's to warp to the blackops, covert jump bridge estabilished, SB's arrive and jump, blackops jump. AFK Cloaker remains on the system and waits for another bastard to try his luck.
There. Print that and read 5 times in a row then practice with your buddies on Sisi. Now your gang is unstoppable. ____________
I like woman because breasts |
Jack Ascendus
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Posted - 2011.04.04 03:43:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Renan Ruivo Edited by: Renan Ruivo on 04/04/2011 03:39:19 Arazu sits in cloak, waits for one, two, five, ten, thirty (hey, i've seen month-long cloakers..) for pve ships to try their luck. Raven undocks/leaves pos and starts ratting. AFK cloakers quits AFK without anyone knowing, finds Raven, warps to it under cloak. Waits for it to be aggroed by a ****load of rats.
Starts chronometer: exits cloak, tackles raven, cycles covcyno and then cancels it, blackops locks onto it, SB's jump, blackops jump to random point on system (effectively generating safespot), cloaks, SB's lock onto raven, SB's release a hail of torpedo fire, Raven goes BOOM, SB's cloak up and fly left;right;up;down, then warps to 30/40/50/70km of whatever stellar body under cloak. Stops chronometer. less than 20 seconds have passed. Raven is dead, and all covops ships are safed up. Blackops waits for the cap to recharge. Cap recharges. Command is given for SB's to warp to the blackops, covert jump bridge estabilished, SB's arrive and jump, blackops jump. AFK Cloaker remains on the system and waits for another bastard to try his luck.
There. Print that and read 5 times in a row then practice with your buddies on Sisi. Now your gang is unstoppable.
Cloak up hictor ahead of time in the belt raven bait will warp to. Wait for cov ops LOL. Undock 200+ insta canes, kill bombers.
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Baneken
Gallente The New Knighthood Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 05:00:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Jack Ascendus
Cloak up hictor ahead of time in the belt raven bait will warp to. Wait for cov ops LOL. Undock 200+ insta canes, kill bombers.
And raven is still dead in 20 sec and all bombers have cloaked, moving away from bubble then they come back and **** your cane blob & hictor with bombs.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 06:28:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Feligast mk, I respect the fact that you feel as strongly about this as I, even if the opposite way. I would, however, like to get your response to this question.
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?
Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"
yeah, I didn't read the whole thread but I thought I'd try and give my honest answer to this. Bit out of practice so please forgive my noobishness.
OPTION A
Do as many of these things as you can.
Set up corp in a single system with only 1 entrance. place large bubble on the gate with constant scout/alt watching to see whenever someone jumps in. Large bubble is mostly to delay them, info coming through some alt in corp is a few seconds slower want a few extra seconds to stop fast tacklers catching us off guard. If bored may drop a bunch of cans around the gate and hope we get lucky and catch some cloakers sneaking in, unlikely but why the hell not, might even give some bored t1 scouts something to do. Everyone should be doing scans with their scanner, might have someone sitting at a pos with long range probes searching for ships (or WH's which you'll pop as soon as they show up).
When someone does come in do the usual dock/pos up until we feel like fighting back. But ppl will still get in and you can never get them out so it's not 100% secure still, at least something like that makes it a pain to get in unnoticed and less likely to get jumped by roaming fleets. With sufficient patience in staying docked up only dedicated players will catch you or people willing to afk/log off for a while.
Only fly cheap ships outside of pos no faction stuff and shoot anyone who dares use a carrier. Probably keep a couple carriers in poses sending out fighters to help though. Depending on pilot and situation: use pvp setup ships (hac's, sb's, hic's) to go ratting with fighter support and when someone is attacked call rest of corp in OR use t1 insured bs and just learn to accept losses. Which way you go here depends on what tactics your enemy are using, with entire hidden fleets and black ops cyno's there is no gaurantee bringing in support from corp mates in system will help at all so may just be best to cut your losses.
Why don't I do that now? cause it's a waste, spending money, effort wasted people and even wasted potential income by not using better ships such as directly using carriers or marauders. With all that extra effort spent on trying to make it safer ratting/anomalies in 0.0 just wouldn't be worth it, and that's with a good case of having a dead end system and a corp that's all active in the same time zone which not everyone is gonna get.
OPTION B
Use 0.0 for pvp don't try to pve there.
Income comes from pos goo for corp and planet goo. If this isn't enough for individual pvp losses use empire alts that run missions, market, research, cyber for isk etc. to fund your 0.0 pvp habits. Possibly set up some corp get rich scheme to help fund it
Also I find it highly likely that someone is going to respond that if local was removed we could just improve 0.0 income to compensate. Don't know if that would work but I think the problem is we are looking it from only 1 perspective far too often.
The psychological/mind games effect of afk cloaking far out ways it's costs (definition of unbalanced), however it's the only effective tool against local intel (another unbalanced mechanic). Two wrongs don't make a right or something like that (there's another dozen things that affect this as well so we need to consider those too). Oh and here would be the part where I give some genius solution that makes everyone happy but... nope. We're probably gonna need some compromise that makes no one happy but works out best for all but I can't think of it. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker
I'm keeping the Silhouette till I have tats |
Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.04.04 08:44:00 -
[149]
Again, the thing you are all screwing up on is assuming the some that the random afk cloaker is in a stealth bomber. What if it is infact a T3 cruiser or someone. You realize that you can just park a ship somewhere while you play another account or watch netflix, and check it every 10-15 minutes.
Fitting a cloak should only make you hard to find, not invulnerable. I still say that there should be a way to find cloakers, preferably tying it to the use of an EAF.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.04 08:50:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
Correction on scenario:
Well how about I come to your house and put my .45 on the table, then go do the shopping. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just out doing the shopping, AM I a threat?
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Signal11th
Versatech Co.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 08:54:00 -
[151]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:23:01
Originally by: baltec1 In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.
Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.
You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.
You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things . And yet you expect me to remain vigiliant and have that fleet on standby, all while you're at the parlor having some pizza.
You are unfortunately missing the point of 0.0, I'm there to kill you as you should be there to kill me, anything else is irrelevant. You making money or doing anything else in 0.0 is only a by-product of you thinking 0.0 is anything else than a meat grinder. You're thinking 0.0 is somewhat aking to low-sec/high-sec because your under the mistaken idea that because you "own" the system or feel safe because your buddies are around you have some special right to carebear it up. Unfortunately your wrong, there are no rules in 0.0 (apart from your corp/alliance made rules) If I wish to sit in your system all day/week/month/year I can( not that I would want to be an afk cloaker), it's 0.0 that's what it's there for. It's lawless space which is designed to favour the agressor as nearly all lawless area's (real or imagined) are.
To be honest getting really tired of these 0.0 ( I live there myself) carebears who are only there to make easy isk moan when they can't and mysteriously vanish when there are wars or cta's on. You don't like it? combat it/ignore it or move to Motsu.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 09:47:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?
Correction on scenario:
Well how about I come to your house and put my .45 on the table, then go do the shopping. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just out doing the shopping, AM I a threat?
You are still wrong in your scenario I would see when you are in my house and where you are not. I cant do that with an afk cloaker.
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nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.04.04 10:23:00 -
[153]
afk cloakers are fine and simply a counter to local. You use local to detect enemy activity, afk cloakers stay in local for hours/days in order to make local useless for you in respect of that guy activity intel.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 11:44:00 -
[154]
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 04/04/2011 11:49:37
Originally by: Signal11th You are unfortunately missing the point of 0.0, I'm there to kill you as you should be there to kill me, anything else is irrelevant. You making money or doing anything else in 0.0 is only a by-product of you thinking 0.0 is anything else than a meat grinder. You're thinking 0.0 is somewhat aking to low-sec/high-sec because your under the mistaken idea that because you "own" the system or feel safe because your buddies are around you have some special right to carebear it up. Unfortunately your wrong, there are no rules in 0.0 (apart from your corp/alliance made rules) If I wish to sit in your system all day/week/month/year I can( not that I would want to be an afk cloaker), it's 0.0 that's what it's there for. It's lawless space which is designed to favour the agressor as nearly all lawless area's (real or imagined) are.
To be honest getting really tired of these 0.0 ( I live there myself) carebears who are only there to make easy isk moan when they can't and mysteriously vanish when there are wars or cta's on. You don't like it? combat it/ignore it or move to Motsu.
No where have I suggested removing or reducing risk in 0.0. So no, I have not missed the point. The thing is that every time I suggest adding risk to inattentive AFK cloakers their brigade shows up insulting me and accusing me of wanting it safe when in fact the ones wanting it safe are you. Here it is again:
0.0 SHOULD BE DANGEROUS TO EVERYONE, INCLUDING INATTENTIVE AFK CLOAKERS.
If you want to cloak up and stalk prey 24/7, by all means do it. But BE AT THE KEYBOARD, just as anyone else in 0.0 space would need to be at the keyboard in order to avoid dying a horrible death.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.04.04 11:54:00 -
[155]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
0.0 SHOULD BE DANGEROUS TO EVERYONE, INCLUDING INATTENTIVE AFK CLOAKERS.
but, a danger for afk cloakers means they arent a danger anymore and the bears are fully safe again, since afk cloakers are the only pain they suffer right now - everything else can be blobbed the f*ck out.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:03:00 -
[156]
Originally by: nano bobcat
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
0.0 SHOULD BE DANGEROUS TO EVERYONE, INCLUDING INATTENTIVE AFK CLOAKERS.
but, a danger for afk cloakers means they arent a danger anymore and the bears are fully safe again, since afk cloakers are the only pain they suffer right now - everything else can be blobbed the f*ck out.
Cloakers are STILL a danger to system inhabitants. If you want to stalk prey you can still do it. You can get your own fleet members (you know, like that fleet you expect them to have ready at all times?) to take turns projecting a threat on the system. That way, they STILL need to remain alert and ready with a fleet on standby in case the cloakers attack and YOU also need to have a gang of willing members taking turns projecting danger unto the system.
If they slip up they die. If you slip up you die.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:07:00 -
[157]
dont think so. The trick of afk-cloaking is to deny you the information about your activity, for that they are called "afk cloakers". Without the "afk" in cloaker there is no information denial, which makes the main part of why they are dangerous. Because you cant bait them or hunt them actively, you know.
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Lucinda Madeveda
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:11:00 -
[158]
I wish CCP would remove local chat. It would solve this problem.
In wormholes you always have cloaked people around you, you just don't know it until they decloak their 5 friends in Tengus. But this is great. You are prepared for an attack all the time because you know an enemy could hide cloaked in your system but you are not "waiting" for it. It is part of the game to take risks and in theory higher risk should have a higher reward.
And from the other point of view, Local chat ruins the chances of small scale PVP. In 0.0 you NEED to do these strange cloaking + cyno tactics if you want to get your 5 friends beyond the enemy 50-man-homedefece-fleet. And lets imagine your 5 friends are really good and you get beyond that fleet through a normal stargate into the carebear system, you won't get kills because everyone (who is not afk) docks instantly when a neut shows up in local. Stupid mechanics.
Local ruins 0.0!*
*Unless 0.0 is supposed to be the place where people can carebear in billion-isk-ships all day long with zero-risk.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:22:00 -
[159]
Originally by: nano bobcat dont think so. The trick of afk-cloaking is to deny you the information about your activity, for that they are called "afk cloakers". Without the "afk" in cloaker there is no information denial, which makes the main part of why they are dangerous. Because you cant bait them or hunt them actively, you know.
You don't have to be AFK. Why couldn't you continue to project danger unto the system?
You require that they have a fleet on standby ready to defend themselves at ALL times. Why couldn't you have fleet members take shift turns projecting that danger? What's wrong with following the advice given to carebears all this time?
If you're worried that it's boring, guess what? A fleet of PVP watching over a miner isn't exactly fun either. So what exactly is your problem with having to be at the keyboard when projecting danger to others?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:32:00 -
[160]
because it doesnt work that way. They would always out-afk/camp you to death in every situation due to their home location advantages.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:36:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 04/04/2011 12:36:45 I think the ultimate solution is to scamble local in 0.0 space. Basically, due to a virus planted by the Sansha's (or some other RP crap) local will randomly show people from as far as three or five systems away, with it changing periodically. You may even not show up in local in the system you're in.
Of course, due to incursions et.al. the empires don't have the resources available at this time to invest in resolving the problem...
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