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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
yumike
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Posted - 2011.04.05 07:30:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Since you obviously have absolutely no clue when it comes to credit card entities, their policies or practices, I refer you to the part where I said call your credit card company. In fact I will give you some help - ask them to explain what a 'chargeback' is....
Can you chargeback a subscription service after the service has been provided?
No.
I've ran into issues with a previous company, That basically had suspended me for someone that was sitting beside me did. The kicker is they never suspended my billing, And my credit card company told me "talk to the company" about it, because essentially I had permitted the charge. After several emails back and forth - they were unwilling to give the money back and unwilling to reimburse the gametime to the account (Since I was wrongfully banned which they apologized for.)
Because it was 3 months into the games release and I had already "let previous transactions go" my bank saw no reason that it would be a fradulent charge, And that is all chargebacks can be used against.
They said the next step if I really wanted to file a chargeback, was to send the MMO company a registered peice of snail mail with a tracking number, Hand that over to my bank and then they would reverse any charges *AFTER* the mail had arrived.
Needless to say, Not only did I close the VISA but I never gave that company another penny.
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Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.04.05 07:31:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: Pserad Pserad
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.
I'm also concerned that overzealous punishment of suspected botters is going to drive away innocent miners. I can't think of how many times I've setup 2 or 3 computers for some long-term mining in a quiet spot while I worked, and don't bother checking local or replying to convos for hours at a time. It's easy, boring as hell, and doesn't require much attention as I'm taking care of business. I can see how some people would assume I was botting and probably petitioned, and if I ended up getting a 14 day ban without any chance to plead my case or defend myself, I would certain cancel all 6 of my accounts. It's a slippery slope, and CCP needs to make sure they know where the line is.
Just make sure you pay with a credit card - if banned then perform your rightfully given chargeback to be refunded the funds for failure of CCP to provide services.
Happens all the time in the entertainment industry and, especially in particular, online gaming.
And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.
It's the beauty of the credit system; the customer is always right especially these days. The credit card companies are more interested in keeping the card holders rather than the merchants seeing as it is the card holder they make more money off of. No merchant is going to risk losing their ability to accept credit cards online as that would be suicide.
Also, with how the chargeback system is set up the more chargebacks a merchant has filed against them, the higher their processing fees will be. Most likely CCP is only testing the waters out here with plex botters and not real paying customers so the risk is relatively low as plex players have no recourse. Hence the reasoning to protect yourself by using a credit card to pay for your time. Ninja, you may want to add that as a statistic to find out - how many banned pay via plex.
the customer is never right. i work in the car insurance industry now and worked in retail before. and not once has the customer ever been right.
to many charge backs and the card company will start a investigation of fraud, but not just against the companies your charging back but against your self. and CCP can prove that you used the service. since you agreed to the EULA and TOS but used the service before breaking the rules and being banned. CCP are not in the wrong and so the card company will look to you for fraudulent activity of your card for chargebacks for services that you have received.
THE EVE REPORT |
Florestan Bronstein
Amarr
Element 115.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 07:34:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 05/04/2011 07:36:08
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.
We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.
They get ISK for the characters on a tainted account which they can funnel to an unaffiliated account (that is using different personal info and connects from an other IP).
How does this not benefit them?
If you are that good spotting covert ISK transfers between unaffiliated characters/accounts how come we still have a thriving RMT business in EVE (that relies on many happy, repeat-customers)?
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.05 07:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: FeralShadow
getting a little off topic here. I want to see more botter tears, they are WAAAAAAAAAY sweeter than carebear tears.
agreed, sorry about that, I have a little more to contribute.
It looks like CCP has a firm lockdown on "Website A" and that macro. The last ban report was 2 days ago.
"Also my account was banned 31.03.2011 until 14.04.2011....
i mined for 10 hours per day, in 8 different systems, with long pauses and logoff to simulate working in office...
:\
need an help... what to do with this account? better selle the character and create a new one? I also have a PVE toon on same account that i used to L4. No others account where touched by the ban.
please advices are welcome! "
"Website B" again, has fewer banns, but the last ban posted 3 days ago.
"Apparently someone reported me. I have been mining in the same system 19/7 for about 6 months now. It's not a very populated system, but being in "The Forge" region, this was probably to be expected."
I am rather curious as what the differences are between the two bots. Obviously one is much easier to find then the other. I will admit, the bot on "Website A" is more expensive, and looks to have alot of features.
I'll do my best to look into them both in more detail. I'm no programmer guru, but I'm in the computer world and familiar with most programs. I'll keep you guys updated.
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Zangorus
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Posted - 2011.04.05 08:45:00 -
[65]
17k botting characters gone for 2 weeks
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Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:05:00 -
[66]
Finally a good thread in this sea of uselessness. I consider it a job well done if CCP gets the botters and macro'ers shaking in their proverbial boots. I have never spotted a botter myself, but I realise they are a huge nuisance.
æIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Æ |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:16:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Aderata Nonkin
Finally a good thread in this sea of uselessness. I consider it a job well done if CCP gets the botters and macro'ers shaking in their proverbial boots. I have never spotted a botter myself, but I realise they are a huge nuisance.
As stated in the other thread the botters themselves have a strong incentive to overstate the effectiveness of CCP's countermeasures.
From their POV CCP's main intention is not to remove all bots form the game but to placate the people on this forum - and the more reports of bans, the merrier the anti-bot crowd and the sooner CCP can stop putting effort into fighting botting.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 09:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Assuming the above poll is accurate...The battle front looks in favor of the macro ratters right now. However, it is early into 'the war'. Let's hope CCP's slow burn will catch up with the ratters.
So far there is zero effect on ratting bots. If anything, ratbot activity has increased in the systems I'm watching.
If they can't catch the ratbots in these systems (for example 6 jumps in 48 hours, continuous ratting 23/7) then ratting bot users have very little to fear.
We'll see but CCP don't have unlimited time - or goodwill - from the playerbase.
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Neamus
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Posted - 2011.04.05 10:16:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Assuming the above poll is accurate...The battle front looks in favor of the macro ratters right now. However, it is early into 'the war'. Let's hope CCP's slow burn will catch up with the ratters.
So far there is zero effect on ratting bots. If anything, ratbot activity has increased in the systems I'm watching.
If they can't catch the ratbots in these systems (for example 6 jumps in 48 hours, continuous ratting 23/7) then ratting bot users have very little to fear.
We'll see but CCP don't have unlimited time - or goodwill - from the playerbase.
Well they called it slow burn for a reason, you probably wont see drastic short term results. Since they've hired an AV guy then I suspect eventually we'll see something vaguely akin to an AV program incorporated into the eve client. Perhaps even signature updates and heuristics. Once that system is up and running properly and they can more accurately and reliably detect bots the results should start to improve.
This post is great and I hope the OP keeps updating it every now and again, but it'll probably be another 6 months before we start seeing any meaningful results.
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Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.05 10:22:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Neamus
it'll probably be another 6 months before we start seeing any meaningful results.
Unfortunately that's what was said 6 months ago, so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
æIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Æ |
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.05 11:26:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Assuming the above poll is accurate...The battle front looks in favor of the macro ratters right now. However, it is early into 'the war'. Let's hope CCP's slow burn will catch up with the ratters.
So far there is zero effect on ratting bots. If anything, ratbot activity has increased in the systems I'm watching.
If they can't catch the ratbots in these systems (for example 6 jumps in 48 hours, continuous ratting 23/7) then ratting bot users have very little to fear.
We'll see but CCP don't have unlimited time - or goodwill - from the playerbase.
It makes you wonder if the high sec mining bots will follow a new career path out in 0.0.
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.04.05 12:28:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Zangorus
17k botting characters gone for 2 weeks
Hmm, so is that why server population has been so low lately? There are anywhere from 5-10k fewer players during the USA prime time recently.
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Liorah
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Posted - 2011.04.05 12:39:00 -
[73]
It's really off-topic, but as far as EULAs (or more generically, shrink-wrap or click-wrap licenses) are concerned, you're playing the lottery as to whether they are enforceable by law. Usually they are, but sometimes they're not. It probably depends on the lawyer PvP skills.
Let's talk less about retribution for banning bots and more about actually banning bots, eh?
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Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 12:43:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Baneken on 05/04/2011 12:44:05
Since this is about bots could someone enlighten me how you make money by filling a system/constellation with 30x4x 8,888,888mil shuttle sell orders ?? 
Or doing the same with 197mil orders in another system; somehow I'm quite confident that remote backwater systems won't have that many idiots buying shuttles ? 
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Dr Larry Goldstein
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:08:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Dr Larry Goldstein on 05/04/2011 13:08:29
Far as I can discern human behavior exhibits an
- Overwhelming unwillingness to demonstrate accountability for their own actions. Strange, this is the premise of EVE and why people cannot change their name.
- Irrational emphasis on getting the most out of the smallest amount of work possible. This is wrongheaded in that the work should always match the reward. Again, I don't think lowsec's risks reflect the reward.
Isn't it odd then how human behavior and reflections on it have ultimately removed any accountability in this game, as well as the rewards of lowsec and 0.0 in contrast to hisec mission running and macro mining?
Absolutely pathetic. I'm not even a bitter old vet and I have this problem with the game. Good game none the less but, wow, address these issues.
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clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:13:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Zangorus
17k botting characters gone for 2 weeks
source?
about the poll. Say if you're selling a product, you're not going to put a poll on your site that shows the product is useless.
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
I am rather curious as what the differences are between the two bots. Obviously one is much easier to find then the other. I will admit, the bot on "Website A" is more expensive, and looks to have alot of features.
I'll do my best to look into them both in more detail. I'm no programmer guru, but I'm in the computer world and familiar with most programs. I'll keep you guys updated.
i would guess the macro writer has done something stupid like pressing align 10 times in a row, every 1.0 seconds, any time it needs to align, or something equally noticeable...
but i'm falling back to what i've said before - as they ban these accounts the macros will only become more sophisticated. using more randomness and variations. I hate to be a naysayer, but i doubt all of this will have any real effect in the long run. unless they do something to dramatically change mining; maybe make it so you have visually inspect the asteroids to determine what is mine-able from them, constantly move and align your ship to get at the "sweet spots", have the rocks get overheated if the same area is mined for too long, etc..
even this would be something macro;s could do, but it would require a lot more programming, and even the slightest changes in coloring would break them..
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Long John Silver
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:39:00 -
[78]
*\o/* *\o/* *\o/*
Go Ninjaspud! Gr8 thread, helps to know what is really going on. Makes me feel cheated though.
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Marcus D'Eriellius
Gallente
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:46:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Baneken
Edited by: Baneken on 05/04/2011 12:44:05
Since this is about bots could someone enlighten me how you make money by filling a system/constellation with 30x4x 8,888,888mil shuttle sell orders ??
Or doing the same with 197mil orders in another system; somehow I'm quite confident that remote backwater systems won't have that many idiots buying shuttles ?
I saw this for the first time yesterday, it's very strange. Does it have something to do with changing the regional average price and manipulating trade macros as a result?
The effort of delivering those shuttles to all those stations must have been considerable which makes me wonder if it's not a CCP Dev playing with the database to try and catch macros out.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Omni Industrial Coalition
Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:51:00 -
[80]
I think, personally, that CCP isn't quite punishing characters enough when they get caught botting. The bans are fine as they are, but there should be an additional punishment. For example, if you're caught bot-mining, you lose skill points related to mining. Say, Astrogeology V gets knocked down to Astrogeo III.
Aim low, kick hard.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:53:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Botter
i¦ll quit EvE if i cant earn ISK with mining for my pvp actions.
Fly safe and undetected
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:57:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
I think, personally, that CCP isn't quite punishing characters enough when they get caught botting. The bans are fine as they are, but there should be an additional punishment. For example, if you're caught bot-mining, you lose skill points related to mining. Say, Astrogeology V gets knocked down to Astrogeo III.
Aim low, kick hard.
i like it. makes those chars harder to sell/replace while stopping them dead in their tracks.
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Iceni
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Posted - 2011.04.05 13:59:00 -
[83]
Chesty, I didn't have you down as the silhouette type. Have you lost your implants or something?
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Iceni
Chesty, I didn't have you down as the silhouette type. Have you lost your implants or something?
I had nice ones once. I am fighting the urge to go through that once again.
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ChromeStriker
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:25:00 -
[85]
nice thread ninja spud keep up the good work! its nice to know whats going on and ccp's doing something right with the botness 
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Malcanis
Caldari
Alcohlics Anonymous
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:42:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Pserad Pserad
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.
Tough ****. No-one needs to cheat to play EVE, so I have zero sympathy for these "casual" botters". They want to play 'risk-free' EVE where all their losses are reimbursed by the bot fairy. If that's what they really want, they can play on SiSi where everything ocsts 100 ISK.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:46:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Armoured C
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: Pserad Pserad
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.
I'm also concerned that overzealous punishment of suspected botters is going to drive away innocent miners. I can't think of how many times I've setup 2 or 3 computers for some long-term mining in a quiet spot while I worked, and don't bother checking local or replying to convos for hours at a time. It's easy, boring as hell, and doesn't require much attention as I'm taking care of business. I can see how some people would assume I was botting and probably petitioned, and if I ended up getting a 14 day ban without any chance to plead my case or defend myself, I would certain cancel all 6 of my accounts. It's a slippery slope, and CCP needs to make sure they know where the line is.
Just make sure you pay with a credit card - if banned then perform your rightfully given chargeback to be refunded the funds for failure of CCP to provide services.
Happens all the time in the entertainment industry and, especially in particular, online gaming.
And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.
It's the beauty of the credit system; the customer is always right especially these days. The credit card companies are more interested in keeping the card holders rather than the merchants seeing as it is the card holder they make more money off of. No merchant is going to risk losing their ability to accept credit cards online as that would be suicide.
Also, with how the chargeback system is set up the more chargebacks a merchant has filed against them, the higher their processing fees will be. Most likely CCP is only testing the waters out here with plex botters and not real paying customers so the risk is relatively low as plex players have no recourse. Hence the reasoning to protect yourself by using a credit card to pay for your time. Ninja, you may want to add that as a statistic to find out - how many banned pay via plex.
the customer is never right. i work in the car insurance industry now and worked in retail before. and not once has the customer ever been right.
to many charge backs and the card company will start a investigation of fraud, but not just against the companies your charging back but against your self. and CCP can prove that you used the service. since you agreed to the EULA and TOS but used the service before breaking the rules and being banned. CCP are not in the wrong and so the card company will look to you for fraudulent activity of your card for chargebacks for services that you have received.
It depends on the "Customer" actually. I have several times told Visa that I wasnt going to pay for X Charge, and that they had better go after the vendor to get the cash back (I disputed the charge). Ive never had an issue reversing charges.
Protip 1: Never take no for an answer, if you really believe you are correct.
Protip 2: Learn to ask for a supervisor immediately. It just shortens the process.
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Mithrasith
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:52:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Pserad Pserad
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.
Tough ****. No-one needs to cheat to play EVE, so I have zero sympathy for these "casual" botters". They want to play 'risk-free' EVE where all their losses are reimbursed by the bot fairy. If that's what they really want, they can play on SiSi where everything ocsts 100 ISK.
Agreeing with this. I also have NO sympathy for botters, and I dont want to hear "Well if CCP made the game mechanic more FUN then I wouldsnt have to" -If it isnt Fun then DONT PLAY THE BLOODY GAME! Dont try to justify YOUR cheating with Bullsh*t about the game mechanic not working for YOU/being fun
If someone uses that excuse, they just need to stop lying to themselves and others.
Some times Im of the opinion that this world is now filled with over-indulgent d*uches set on having a free ride and fleecing everyone else while using lame justifications.
And then I read this thread, and realize that a lot of players are just like me. They want to play within the rules of this game, they dont want to cheat, and realize the damage of cheating. +1 to all of the foiks on this thread that support getting rid of the bots.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Alcohlics Anonymous
IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.04.05 14:53:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Zangorus
17k botting characters gone for 2 weeks
Where did you get this figure from?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:00:00 -
[90]
I too think that punishment should be as harsh as possible, but since it's clear that doesn't make business sense (at least at the moment) I would suggest the following additional punishments:
* Botting accounts lose the ability to transfer characters (It's a privilege, not a right - and you won't be profiting your several billion or recycling characters onto clean accounts)
* Botting accounts should be permanently marked in a manner visible either in game or on an API key. We'll see who hires these cheaters, and we will shun them.
* Botting accounts must pay properly (no PLEX) for X period of time. It does not make sense that these people can cheat and make the game *free* while other non-cheating players must part with hard earned cash to play.
* Botting accounts must be relieved of a significant sum of ISK, equal to a conservative best guess at how much they profited.
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