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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:10:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Botter i¦ll quit EvE if i cant earn ISK with mining for my pvp actions.
Fly safe and undetected
TY Chesty, that led me to fine some more websites.
I found 2 more sites that sell bots. One of them only had 70 registured users and the last update/post on the forum was 3 months ago. I'm ignoring them.
The other website, the one that chesty got that quote from, has HUNDREDS of users. I'm going as far to say that they are just as popular as the other two websites. From now on they are "Website C" and I will montior them
ON Website C, I found several of the standard "I've been banned for 2 weeks posts". In fact there is a thread that was started about a week ago that allready has 24+ pages on it of people discussing their bannings.
The owner of this website has advised all macro users to stop using until a patch can be found to work around CCP's security. It would seem that this banhammer has officialy stopped everyone on Website C from using their bot..if only temporarly.
Here are some quotes I pulled that I hope sum up what's happening:
"the antibotting zealots that somewhat irk me . Before that thread on kugu by manny extremely few people knew or cared about botting , now its the crusades all over again ... "
"IMO, i don't see what all the fuss about bots is. Most are in high sec and usually don't interfere with other players' gameplay. I mean bots could easily be NPCs or something....I dont even understand how ****ed up in the head someone needs to be to go on an evil witch bot hunt. How can you possibly have fun doing that?"
"I hate to say it, but we could be in trouble here... just lost 5 of my 14 accounts today alone. and ITS A SUNDAY!"
The thread is still active, but the most recent conclusion is a re-assurance fromt he bot programmer that a solution to CCP's ban will be found.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:12:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Lord XSiV
Just make sure you pay with a credit card - if banned then perform your rightfully given chargeback to be refunded the funds for failure of CCP to provide services.
Happens all the time in the entertainment industry and, especially in particular, online gaming.
And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.
It's the beauty of the credit system; the customer is always right especially these days. The credit card companies are more interested in keeping the card holders rather than the merchants seeing as it is the card holder they make more money off of. No merchant is going to risk losing their ability to accept credit cards online as that would be suicide.
Also, with how the chargeback system is set up the more chargebacks a merchant has filed against them, the higher their processing fees will be. Most likely CCP is only testing the waters out here with plex botters and not real paying customers so the risk is relatively low as plex players have no recourse. Hence the reasoning to protect yourself by using a credit card to pay for your time. Ninja, you may want to add that as a statistic to find out - how many banned pay via plex.
This is a very poor advise. CCP is within their rights to suspend or ban an account if bot using was found.
I can also tell you that a customer initiated chargeback is certain way to make sure your CC will never ever be accepted again by CCP. Large companies have entire departments dealing with this kind of stuff and their responses are not nice.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:29:00 -
[93]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
The other website, the one that chesty got that quote from, has HUNDREDS of users. I'm going as far to say that they are just as popular as the other two websites. From now on they are "Website C" and I will montior them
That website is currently the subject of a Nominet case. I was bored
The naughty boy decided to pretend to be a non-trading individual which allows you to opt out your personal details from a .uk domain.
Once the whois was populated it was rapidly apparent that the details weren't right - Nominet is now dealing with the registrar rather than the registrant to properly identify him.
Once that's done if he does prove to be a UK resident then Trading Standards can come enquire why the website doesn't comply with the Distance Selling Regulations, and Revenue & Customs can come ask him why he didn't declare any of the Paypal income.
If he can't be indentified then the domain will be suspended and then cancelled.
I reckon he's got an annual income of maybe ú20k from this website which would be a rather nice tax-free income mmmm? I know I could do with an extra 20k a year for sure
Personal information removed. Zymurgist
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:42:00 -
[94]
As the whois registrant info has been removed then google publicdemands then utilise the Nominet whois facility. That will give you the COMMERCIAL not personal details that were in the previous post.
Again I note that it is a legal requirement in England & Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland that people who utilise .co.uk domains for trading purposes MUST give accurate and complete information. That information is publically available. Elsewhere sadly.
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Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.05 15:44:00 -
[95]
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Originally by: Botter i¦ll quit EvE if i cant earn ISK with mining for my pvp actions.
Fly safe and undetected
TY Chesty, that led me to fine some more websites.
You're welcome, I quite like watching them whine on that site.
Also...
Originally by: Botter_One if i ever see the mittani in local, imma gonna report him as a bot... just sayin
Originally by: Botter_Two Othran too.
Not sure what Mittani has to do with the price of cheese, but he appears to have ruffled a few feathers.
Othran, nice work. The Zymgthingy-deleted info was, of course, captured. o7
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 16:12:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Othran on 05/04/2011 16:14:26 Edited by: Othran on 05/04/2011 16:13:31 Edited by: Othran on 05/04/2011 16:13:00
Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Othran, nice work. The Zymgthingy-deleted info was, of course, captured. o7
The thing is that its utterly trivial to do, so no big deal.
If you EVER see a .co.uk domain (or indeed any other .uk domain) where something is being sold, whether its services or goods, then that website MUST display the name of the company/trader, the postal address of the company/trader and the telephone number. Its not optional, nor does it depend on being paid in pounds, ISK, turnips or whatever. If you sell anything then you must disclose who you are.
Now the website side of things is dealt with by Trading Standards (who normally are too overloaded to do anything), but if there's no address on the website then odds-on the domain is registered to a "Non-trading individual who has opted their details out". Whois will show that up.
The domain side of things is dealt with by Nominet, who are quite happy to deal with stuff like this. Simply put "Populate whois" in the subject, give a link in the body to the website and state its being used for commercial use. They WILL sort it out within 5 working days.
Its the main reason why trading from a .co.uk domain is considered less "risky" than a .com when you're first setting up merchant accounts. You ARE traceable or at worst can be shutdown pretty fast, unlike .com which is whack-a-mole territory, mainly due to US registrars not checking anything other than a credit card.
Edits for multiple typos
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.04.05 16:30:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: NinjaSpud
The other website, the one that chesty got that quote from, has HUNDREDS of users. I'm going as far to say that they are just as popular as the other two websites. From now on they are "Website C" and I will montior them
That website is currently the subject of a Nominet case. I was bored
The naughty boy decided to pretend to be a non-trading individual which allows you to opt out your personal details from a .uk domain.
Once the whois was populated it was rapidly apparent that the details weren't right - Nominet is now dealing with the registrar rather than the registrant to properly identify him.
Once that's done if he does prove to be a UK resident then Trading Standards can come enquire why the website doesn't comply with the Distance Selling Regulations, and Revenue & Customs can come ask him why he didn't declare any of the Paypal income.
If he can't be indentified then the domain will be suspended and then cancelled.
I reckon he's got an annual income of maybe ú20k from this website which would be a rather nice tax-free income mmmm? I know I could do with an extra 20k a year for sure
Personal information removed. Zymurgist
Excellent. Report him to the Inland Revenue - they're currently rather keen on getting every penny from tax dodgers. This is exactly the kind of action that hits the botting community at it's heart.
Especially if said community is also earning undeclared income from RMT ISK...
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.05 16:33:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Malcanis
Excellent. Report him to the Inland Revenue - they're currently rather keen on getting every penny from tax dodgers. This is exactly the kind of action that hits the botting community at it's heart.
Especially if said community is also earning undeclared income from RMT ISK...
I have a friend at HMRC and accoring to him the IR are pretty clued up when it comes to paypal. I would very much doubt there's a need to report him. Paypal will given the IR their figures in any case, as part of their own audit.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 16:50:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Burnharder
Originally by: Malcanis
Excellent. Report him to the Inland Revenue - they're currently rather keen on getting every penny from tax dodgers. This is exactly the kind of action that hits the botting community at it's heart.
Especially if said community is also earning undeclared income from RMT ISK...
I have a friend at HMRC and accoring to him the IR are pretty clued up when it comes to paypal. I would very much doubt there's a need to report him. Paypal will given the IR their figures in any case, as part of their own audit.
Anyone in the UK who uses Paypal and actually TRUSTS them might want to ask why they remain domiciled in Lichtenstein (IIRC) for European operations. Here's a hint, its not to do with taxes Personally I'd rather open an account with a random bank in some African dictatorship, you'd probably have more consumer rights
Anyway Revenue & Customs are pretty useless at detecting anything unless someone points them at it. This is a pretty open goal though so we'll see. I suspect he'll just drop the domain and hope for the best.
We'll see.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:12:00 -
[100]
Reporting him will only hurt him if he hasn't been paying taxes right?
What if he's been a good citizen and reported correctaly on his taxes as "personal income" or something like that?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but will it do any good?
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:27:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Othran on 05/04/2011 17:28:38
Originally by: NinjaSpud Reporting him will only hurt him if he hasn't been paying taxes right?
What if he's been a good citizen and reported correctaly on his taxes as "personal income" or something like that?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but will it do any good?
He has incorrect personal info on the domain registration which ostensibly makes him out to be a "non-trading individual" at an address in a postcode where nobody with "Grant" has lived at for years according to the electoral roll. What do you reckon the odds are of him paying tax on the Roidripper bots?
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:28:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 05/04/2011 17:31:07
Originally by: NinjaSpud Reporting him will only hurt him if he hasn't been paying taxes right?
What if he's been a good citizen and reported correctaly on his taxes as "personal income" or something like that?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but will it do any good?
Hmmm, good question. I would think that if he is leaving that kind of paper trail that it would open him up to various types of litigation due to making cash on someone elses intellectual property.
I could be very wrong about that, but it would seem to make sense considering CCP's stance with 3rd party software developers for other apps that interact with their software.
That being said, because of the nature of the product it is doubtful that he has filed this income properly.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:42:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Hmmm, good question. I would think that if he is leaving that kind of paper trail that it would open him up to various types of litigation due to making cash on someone elses intellectual property.
I could be very wrong about that, but it would seem to make sense considering CCP's stance with 3rd party software developers for other apps that interact with their software.
That being said, because of the nature of the product it is doubtful that he has filed this income properly.
You guys are US - I can tell due to your fear of the IRS Revenue & Customs over here are institutionally incompetent.
I have to re-iterate this - if you find a .uk address selling goods or services for any sort of remuneration (turnips, horse****, whatever) then the same rules apply.
IF YOU USE A .UK DOMAIN TO SELL AND DON'T FULLY DISCLOSE YOUR DETAILS THEN YOU ARE IN BREACH OF THE DOMAIN CONTRACT AND ALSO IN BREACH OF THE LAW WITHIN THE UK & NI.
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Meeogi
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:43:00 -
[104]
Having a 14 day ban makes it Juuuust worth the risk. Either they are cheating..or they aren't. CHEATING IS CHEATING would you just suspend someone the first time you caught them messing with the code? would you suspend an employee for selling C.C.P secrets? Just a suspension for cheating is basically saying ..a littles not that bad.
perma ban 1st offense...it would begin to cripple the industry. Remember the guys that are doing it are the type that want everything given to them, ...your basic scourge of society.
Permaban ...1st offense, no parole. seriously.
Wax on Wax off |
Chesty McJubblies
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.04.05 17:50:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Meeogi Permaban ...1st offense, no parole. seriously.
Ideally, yes. However, they are paying subscribers. I doubt the accounts department would support such methods. They worked out a compromise, I guess.
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Corporal Punishment08
NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:01:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Corporal Punishment08 on 05/04/2011 18:01:11 Just two cents: I think it should be 2 and you're out. First 14 day ban, second and you're out.
Edit: But good to see CCP is being effective. _____________________________________ Real men corpse tank. |
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:38:00 -
[107]
"Hey, CCP has flagged me as someone whose subscription fees they'd simply rather do without. I wonder how they'll react if ... I stop sending them subscription fees? Heh."
*does CC chargeback*
"BOOSH! pwnt."
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:49:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris "Hey, CCP has flagged me as someone whose subscription fees they'd simply rather do without. I wonder how they'll react if ... I stop sending them subscription fees? Heh."
*does CC chargeback*
"BOOSH! pwnt."
As I wrote: This is CC fraud and not for a second I would recommend that you or anybody else endorse these type of actions. This not like trying to sell a Scorpion named Rattlesnake in Jita. CC Fraud has possibly legal consequences.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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yumike
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:01:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris "Hey, CCP has flagged me as someone whose subscription fees they'd simply rather do without. I wonder how they'll react if ... I stop sending them subscription fees? Heh."
*does CC chargeback*
"BOOSH! pwnt."
As I wrote: This is CC fraud and not for a second I would recommend that you or anybody else endorse these type of actions. This not like trying to sell a Scorpion named Rattlesnake in Jita. CC Fraud has possibly legal consequences.
At this point I think its fair to say, its worthless to explain.. It was explained on page 2.. page 3 and now again. /sigh
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:32:00 -
[110]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 05/04/2011 19:33:02
Originally by: Othran
You guys are US - I can tell due to your fear of the IRS
O **** he's discovered us.....RUUUUUUNNNNN
EDIT:
Originally by: yumike
At this point I think its fair to say, its worthless to explain.. It was explained on page 2.. page 3 and now again. /sigh
Ya he's right, lets try to emain on topic
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:38:00 -
[111]
I was pointing out how silly it is to think a business will take any offense to an undesirable customer leaving.
I run a theoretical convenience store. I brew fresh coffee every morning. I offer cheap 60c refills to customers who bring in their own mug. Some dude comes in with a mug and a 5-gallon bucket and some tubes. He pays $1.20 for two refills. Sets up a siphon on my coffee urn to drip coffee into his bucket while he's at work. Tries to rationalize "If I didn't have coffee, I wouldn't be able to work and afford your 60c refills, dude. I'm just trying to stay awake and employed. You get my money every day, I keep you in business dammit!" Comes back at the end of the day to get his bucket o' java. Sells what excess he can't possibly drink on the sidewalk directly in front of my store for some extra scratch. One morning I tell him to get ****ed. "Heh. Well I'm not paying you for this morning's coffee." "Get out."
~Fin~
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Pserad Pserad
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:45:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 05/04/2011 19:47:49
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris I was pointing out how silly it is to think a business will take any offense to an undesirable customer leaving.
I*** coffee shop refences
I think it's safe to say that if every bot in the game left, CCP would certainly start to feel the hurt. If their numbers are in the thousands as everybody claims, each one would at some point be bringing in around $180/year (more or less) either in actual cash from subscriptions, or removing PLEX from the game. Either way, it's cash coming out of CCP's pocket. Do you think they really want to live on a million dollars+ less each year? I bet they don't.
I think what we can really expect from all of this is for the botters to either tone down their activities to be much less obvious, or adapt their tools so players no longer have the perception they are so rampant. Then CCP still makes money, bots still get whatever gratification they are hoping for albeit on a smaller scale, and people on the forums can find something new to obsess and whine about constantly.
It's a win-win for everybody in the long run, really.
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zombielook
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:38:00 -
[113]
Slow afternoon at work so this thread gave me something to do.
I had no idea how easy it was to find macro programs. but the "i've been banned" threads are priceless!
This is the mentality of some of these, these, well I don't know what. posted earlier today.
"Another thing to is that I disagree with open discussion about bans and plans to avoid banning because this exposes important information that can be used against the macroers. I wish there was an exclusive macroer club that can be started and requires membership for discussion, somehow, I dont know. Because I have ideas on how macroing can be taken to the next level and I want to share with macroers and not with the general public." <abelhaz>
"But on a serious note if you could write where and what to you mined and for how long would be great maybe there's a pattern and maybe there only banning the greedy *****'s??????"<SEARSY666> quoted for accuracy
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Palovana
Caldari Inner Fire Inc.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:53:00 -
[114]
What if CCP created a bot program, and released it into the wild without any apparent link to CCP itself?
This program would at first appear to be undetectable, and CCP would not ban a single user for several months, thus allowing it to become a popular "stealthy" bot.
All the while the bot was recording the every move of everyone who used it - all their transactions, conversations, bookmarks, assets, alt accounts, etc.
Then after letting it run rampant for several months to a year, D-Day comes and all of the information which has been accumulated and datamined during those months is put to use resulting in the largest mass ban of botters the universe has ever seen?
Could there be a small dev team at CCP working on such a project right now?
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Malcanis
Caldari Alcohlics Anonymous IMPERIAL LEGI0N
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:09:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Pserad Pserad Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 05/04/2011 19:47:49
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris I was pointing out how silly it is to think a business will take any offense to an undesirable customer leaving.
I*** coffee shop refences
I think it's safe to say that if every bot in the game left, CCP would certainly start to feel the hurt.
I'm not so sure this is true. I think we can take it as read that botters are all supported by PLEX. Any PLEX they buy are already in game, so in the very short term, CCP feel no hit at all. In the medium term, the demand for PLEX would fall considerably, leading to an oversupply and a consequent price drop. This is the effect that most people think of.
However consider the effect of "cheap" PLEX in an EVE where there are virtually no bots. There is less free ISK sloshing about the place, so prices generally would fall. People would need less ISK to compete with the botters, and they'd be relatively happier to sell their PLEX for lower prices - after all, you care about what you can buy in return for your PLEX, not the absolute number of ISK.
In any case, the total size of the market for PLEX has shrunk, so the comparative value of PLEX would fall dramatically.... or would it? Imagine what would happen if PLEX fell to an equivalent value of 250 mill. I can tell you what I'd do: I'd buy up a dozen or so and store them up so I can keep playing for free. And I think a very large number of other human players would be more than happy to do the same. All those PLEX will be quite happily consumed by "real" players, even if it a price point a little lower (but not that much lower) that the botters are willing to pay. And as a side benefit, we'd also see more people playing for free, including people who might otherwise quit or else not be able to afford to play.
In short: The fiscal consequences to CCP of a bot massacre are widely overstated. They would be limited to some temporary instability in the PLEX market, which would end when ISK-rich players warehoused PLEX for their own use or as a long term investment.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Baneken
Gallente The New Knighthood Apocalypse Now.
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:15:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Palovana What if CCP created a bot program, and released it into the wild without any apparent link to CCP itself?
This program would at first appear to be undetectable, and CCP would not ban a single user for several months, thus allowing it to become a popular "stealthy" bot.
All the while the bot was recording the every move of everyone who used it - all their transactions, conversations, bookmarks, assets, alt accounts, etc.
Then after letting it run rampant for several months to a year, D-Day comes and all of the information which has been accumulated and datamined during those months is put to use resulting in the largest mass ban of botters the universe has ever seen?
Could there be a small dev team at CCP working on such a project right now?
You know that the first computer virus was made by two brothers with an intention of stopping the illegal copying of their calculator software and we all know how well that plan worked out and what happened after.
Road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:47:00 -
[117]
For the OP, while we do the work ourselves as well if you have bots that you think might be of interest to us feel free to send a mail to [email protected]. I'm far from perfect and getting information from the players such as this can point out gaps in what we have already looked into. |
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:50:00 -
[118]
The idea that CCP would be hurt financially if they were able to suddenly ban all botting from EVE is amusing if nothing else.
Do you realize how much money they would save if they didn't have to devote the current level of resources into dealing with this issue?
I'm pretty confident that if you asked any member of the CCP staff "If you could ban all botters permanently and instantly, would you take that step?" they would respond with a resounding YES (outside of the desire to perhaps give the casual botter a chance to mend their ways first).
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.05 21:51:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Pserad Pserad
I think it's safe to say that if every bot in the game left, CCP would certainly start to feel the hurt. If their numbers are in the thousands as everybody claims, each one would at some point be bringing in around $180/year (more or less) either in actual cash from subscriptions, or removing PLEX from the game. Either way, it's cash coming out of CCP's pocket. Do you think they really want to live on a million dollars+ less each year? I bet they don't.
This argument has been heard before and has got to stop. Really.
First of all, how much resources do you think CCP have allocated in dealing with the issue. All the petitions, checking them etc.etc., these cost serious manpower.
Then there is the extra server load which forces CCP which ultimately costs money as well.
Lastly, there is the RMT element where CCP is just losing hard money
Finally, there is the ethical point of view and just doing what is right. If CCP doesn't contain this issue, than it would grow out of control, crippling and ruining EVE and CCP.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.05 22:02:00 -
[120]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 05/04/2011 22:03:33
Originally by: CCP Sreegs For the OP, while we do the work ourselves as well if you have bots that you think might be of interest to us feel free to send a mail to [email protected]. I'm far from perfect and getting information from the players such as this can point out gaps in what we have already looked into.
OOO I suppose I can do that.....for the mear price of 100 billion isk MMMWWWHAHAHAHAHAAHAH
Haha, just kidding. I'd be happy to report fare an honestly what I've found. I'll compile a more detailed letter to you guys, giving more information that I posted here (ya know, specifics of where I got that poll and what not)
Originally by: clixor
This argument has been heard before and has got to stop. Really.
Agreed. Keep focus people. I'm not here to argue wither or not CCP should do anything... The fact is they ARE doing something, and take pride that they are doing it for YOU the REAL players. Even if CCP loses money in banning bots (not saying they will), they are doing it for you guys. +1 to the Players of Eve!
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