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Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 26 post(s)
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.04.11 17:28:00 - [241] Originally by: Othran I don't much care really - its trivial for me to push the buttons to set each process in train. I agree Othran, waste of time. I have a feeling we've "Pushed a few buttons" anyway
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.04.11 17:35:00 - [242] Originally by: NinjaSpud Originally by: Othran I don't much care really - its trivial for me to push the buttons to set each process in train. I agree Othran, waste of time. I have a feeling we've "Pushed a few buttons" anyway I suspect a few more might get pushed once the owners of "Grant"'s alleged home get the knock on the door from Revenue & Customs... Still got to see who paid the registrars bills yet. We'll get there though as this is utterly trivial to do.
Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.11 17:48:00 - [243] Dear CCP Thank You. Show them no mercy. The game is better off, and more long term viable, WITHOUT botters. If the cost of trit goes to 20 isk a unit, so be it. It means it goes to 20 isk a unit for everybody. I can live with that a lot easier than I can live with the existance of botting. Good start on the mining bots, just make sure you get the other ones too, and then do your best to keep your anti-bot wear up to date. Have you concidered contacting other game companies and making this a joint effort? Just a thought. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2011.04.11 19:56:00 - [244] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please! I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk. If I could answer that there'd be x% fewer people playing right now. I have no problem believing the percentage is in the one digit range. However, those few introduce a huge amount of ISK into the economy (based on 15bi+ per month per account <- comparable to a hi end moon or better), which causes all sorts of in game economy issues. Originally by: Raznarl "more or less: the prices will spike by x5 or more" That's not how it works. Short to medium term the price of things will indeed increase until the markets readjusts. The problem is the huge amount of isk the bots put into the economy by tapping into the faucets, I'm not gonna repeat all the issues this causes. At the same time, they compete on the market with people trying to make a buck the legit way (mined minerals, loot dropped), driving profits down. Bots basically drive the reward/effort ratio much lower than what human players would accept. Miners are hit especially hard by this as their profit is completely dependent on the sale of freely traded items, hence the oversupply of minerals makes them worth less. Ratters/mission runners are hit by devaluation of loot, but at least they have fixed bounties/rewards, which are affected by inflation (caused by the unbalanced isk faucets), but to a lesser degree. If the bots are removed and the markets readjust, people will have an easier time making isk and/or their isk will have more buying power. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation.
Aineko Macx	Posted - 2011.04.11 20:13:00 - [245] Edited by: Aineko Macx on 11/04/2011 20:15:07 Originally by: Cutlass Claire ... stuff ... Not even going into judging your defense of botting, here's a homework assignment: It's quite obvious that the people botting have an unfair advantage over the legit crowd (a win-lose situation), but let's go further. Lets hypothetically assume that botting in EvE was perfectly allowed, encouraged and that all isk making and industrial activities could be automated and that everyone did it. What would that do for the economy and the game in general (yes, also pvp)? ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation.
FeralShadow RipStar. United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.11 20:46:00 - [246] Very much enjoying this thread and every update. As a small aside, what is the "Time dilation" they were talking about at Fanfest? I can't seem to find a reference to it anywhere, and it intrigues me. -Feral _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.04.11 20:55:00 - [247] "Time dilation" means the servers would do one second of game simulation in 2 seconds, or 3 or more as needed to make sure everyone's commands get processed. Its to help with lag in big fights. The game runs slow, but is equally slow for everyone. It would be off to watch, ships turning in slow motion, missles traveling in slow motion, but at least you would see it rather than a black screen.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.11 21:20:00 - [248] Originally by: FeralShadow Very much enjoying this thread and every update. As a small aside, what is the "Time dilation" they were talking about at Fanfest? I can't seem to find a reference to it anywhere, and it intrigues me. -Feral Check the thread in the Eve Information section about the new blog posted today by CSM6. They're going back and forth in there right now about Time Dilation. ~Gnosis~
Burnharder	Posted - 2011.04.11 21:47:00 - [249] Originally by: Vincent Athena Edited by: Vincent Athena on 11/04/2011 21:02:07 "Time dilation" means the servers would do one second of game simulation in 2 seconds, or 3 or more as needed to make sure everyone's commands get processed. Its to help with lag in big fights. The game runs slow, but is equally slow for everyone. It would be odd to watch, ships turning in slow motion, missles traveling in slow motion, but at least you would see it rather than a black screen. Also, it would only occur is systems where there is a big fleet fight, not to the entire eve cluster. This would have the effect that whoever has the biggest reinforcement fleet headed for the big battle would want to cause as much time dilation as possible, so their fleet, which is on another node and still in "normal time" would get there before the fight went against them. Maybe CCP would have to force time dilation to spread over several systems to be fair. Wouldn't it just be better to accelerate the servers away from Earth at 99.9% the speed of light?
FeralShadow RipStar. United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.11 23:57:00 - [250] Wow actually sounds awesome. It will give people a chance to actually have reinforcements have an impact on the outcome. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura

HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.12 02:23:00 - [251] another way to pressure 00 botters would be quite 00 systems with low activity would be more likley to have wormholes into low sec esp and high sec ( and ccpshould raise the spawned 00 womrholes direct from low and null sec to 4 per reigon)
ChromeStriker	Posted - 2011.04.12 09:25:00 - [252] just going to throw a 'bump' in here
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:44:00 - [253] Originally by: ChromeStriker just going to throw a 'bump' in here You can never have too many bumps. ---------------------------------------- Looking for a good system, or area, to AFK Cloak. PM me with infos, or if you want a partner to be AFK with.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:49:00 - [254] So has anyone noticed if the bot-banning is having any effect yet? On the markets? Or visibly in the popular botting systems?
Smarcus Smokus	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:02:00 - [255] Edited by: Smarcus Smokus on 12/04/2011 12:02:16 Isotopes are going nuts, but not sure how much is speculation (that'd be me) and how much is botting (or lack thereof).
clixor	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:06:00 - [256] Originally by: The Old Chap So has anyone noticed if the bot-banning is having any effect yet? On the markets? Or visibly in the popular botting systems? That's very hard to say. Overall volumes of lo-end minerals seems te be going done on average. We are also seeing way less huge spikes. But as indicated in other places, that could just be people waiting to offload. On the other hand, i do see some weird LP store item behavior. Yesterday some high-end items were sold to me 50% below market average which (again) could indicate some fireselling going on. But then again, you never really know for sure. I'd just love to get some feedback from CCP about the numbers, even seeing regular botting systems empty doesn't mean nothing as those bots could be just sitting out until the storm passes. And then we have the botters returning from the 14day ban soon. It WILL be interesting :)
Serceyes	Posted - 2011.04.12 20:57:00 - [257] Edited by: Serceyes on 12/04/2011 20:58:04 I just came across this thread today while eve was on extended DT again and have just finished reading this thread from front to back. Great thread NinjaSpud, keep up the good work and also it's good to see that CCP are taking this botting seriously.
Shaalira D'arc	Posted - 2011.04.12 22:12:00 - [258] Thanks for the research, and for sharing all this with the rest of us. I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread.
Sea Sharp	Posted - 2011.04.12 23:05:00 - [259] The last botter I reported, the other day, had stupidly named his hulk "second chance". Doh! I guess when I see him again it'll be called "last chance".
Lilith Savage	Posted - 2011.04.12 23:17:00 - [260] Good to see that something is actually being done about bots. What concerns me a bit is what method is being used to catch them. The reason being when I used to mine a few years back, on occassions people would send me a message asking 'are you a bot', sometimes you answer and sometimes you think I can't be bothered to answer. I've not used any add-on program in any online game yet legally or otherwise. So this shows that some people would not know a bot anyway, yet they might think it's one. When mining in a system I'd place 3 book marks in each asteroid field (spread apart)and just keep flying back to one, mine and then deliver the ore back to the station and just repeat until it's time to move to the next book mark. So kind of botting behaviour as you are using book marks, yet no botting programs being used. Some people also think that if someone is mining or ratting in the same system for more than 12 hours then they must be a bot, this is also not necessarily the case. It's great to think that something is actually being done about it (part of why I've just come back to the game as I dislike botters/isk sellers), but it does make me wonder if people not botting will get banned for botting. I've seen a bot in action in WoW once and it was the type that goes point to point on a predetermined course (loop) and only deviates from that course when a target comes into range. Which I believe is just a basic type of bot. A bit like flying from station to bookmark and back. But other than that don't know too much about them and I'm sure a lot of other people don't also.

Aldo Bridger	Posted - 2011.04.12 23:21:00 - [261] Originally by: Lilith Savage Good to see that something is actually being done about bots. What concerns me a bit is what method is being used to catch them. Seemed pretty blatant in the OP the methodology was detecting the bot hooking into the game itself, not simply "oh that guy looks like a bot," hearsay.
NinjaSpud	Posted - 2011.04.13 00:50:00 - [262] Originally by: Lilith Savage rightfully concerned about playing the game CCP said that they have software installed that detects some of the bot programs, not just the user time logged. So as long as its you, and you're not using other software to help you mine you'll be ok. I believe, that if someone gets reported and they have not been mining 23/7, I believe ccp has more methods to investigate a users account. Possibly some kind of scan, IDK, I haven't been able to find those details out. But I haven't found a single post of a non bot user getting banned. I've found claims, but further investigation always reveals that they where cheating some how, alot of them where trading isk directly from known bot accounts and got banned for it. I'm not referencing normal sales here, I'm referring to a bot account "giving money" to another non-bot account, and both get banned. Without details on how they are detecting bots, I can only speculate, and I think that CCP has targeted a specific bot. The one I've labeled as "Website C". Of all the bots they have had the most banns, and are currently out of commission. The Bot threads have fallen silent as of late. They know their being watched, and they're keeping their **** straight. Website A has deleted their banned thread, and replaced it with a message from the programmer stating: "Any users that get banned, email me directly, do not post in the forums anymore." I'm almost ready to call this round 1. And I think it goes to CCP, one bot down and out, 2 others suffering heavy losses. With the 2 week banns approaching their end, we'll see how round 2 goes....
Mick Jackson	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:13:00 - [263] What I expect ccp is doing is giving one of their developers a few hundred bucks, sending them out onto the net to purchase a few bots and then setting them up and checking for footprints in their behaviour. Much like how anti virus programs detect virusses. Once you know how it works it is easy to find. The macro writers are their own worst enemies as they want to make money from their apps. All I can say is happy hunting CCP. Nice thread btw Ninja
sableye principle of motion	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:25:00 - [264] Originally by: The Old Chap So has anyone noticed if the bot-banning is having any effect yet? On the markets? Or visibly in the popular botting systems? I've seen some who I always thought were bots disapear. ----------------------------------------- View The North Star! In All Its Glory!!
Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:28:00 - [265] Edited by: Henry Haphorn on 13/04/2011 02:28:14 Quote: The Bot threads have fallen silent as of late. They know their being watched, and they're keeping their **** straight. Website A has deleted their banned thread, and replaced it with a message from the programmer stating: "Any users that get banned, email me directly, do not post in the forums anymore." I'm almost ready to call this round 1. And I think it goes to CCP, one bot down and out, 2 others suffering heavy losses. With the 2 week banns approaching their end, we'll see how round 2 goes.... Here's to Round 2.

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:31:00 - [266] I haven't forgotten about you guys here in this thread I've just been tied up with the forum issues since last week. We'll likely be publishing some information of some type as an update in the next 3 weeks or so.


CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:34:00 - [267] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 13/04/2011 02:34:00 Originally by: Sergeant Spot Dear CCP Thank You. Show them no mercy. The game is better off, and more long term viable, WITHOUT botters. If the cost of trit goes to 20 isk a unit, so be it. It means it goes to 20 isk a unit for everybody. I can live with that a lot easier than I can live with the existance of botting. Good start on the mining bots, just make sure you get the other ones too, and then do your best to keep your anti-bot wear up to date. Have you concidered contacting other game companies and making this a joint effort? Just a thought. I've been in contact with some people at other companies. Most of them tend to play their cards very close to their chests but I'm trying to get some really good cross industry communication going on. It may mean that we have to have some more success and get people's attention first. :edit: Also, you're welcome. :)

Henry Haphorn Gallente Majesta Empire	Posted - 2011.04.13 02:56:00 - [268] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 13/04/2011 02:34:00 Originally by: Sergeant Spot Dear CCP Thank You. Show them no mercy. The game is better off, and more long term viable, WITHOUT botters. If the cost of trit goes to 20 isk a unit, so be it. It means it goes to 20 isk a unit for everybody. I can live with that a lot easier than I can live with the existance of botting. Good start on the mining bots, just make sure you get the other ones too, and then do your best to keep your anti-bot wear up to date. Have you concidered contacting other game companies and making this a joint effort? Just a thought. I've been in contact with some people at other companies. Most of them tend to play their cards very close to their chests but I'm trying to get some really good cross industry communication going on. It may mean that we have to have some more success and get people's attention first. :edit: Also, you're welcome. :) If you can achieve that, then all the better. I don't mind seeing CCP trying to help other MMOs combating against botting.
ChromeStriker	Posted - 2011.04.13 08:16:00 - [269] Edited by: ChromeStriker on 13/04/2011 08:17:06 I love it when CCP kicks ass! If i was another company i would seriously consider asking them out
Ingvar Angst Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United	Posted - 2011.04.13 12:22:00 - [270] I still say you remove a crapload of skill points in whatever areas they're set up for botting. Mining bot? Lose astrogeology. Penny bot? Lose all trade skills. Hit them below the belt.



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