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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.07 09:35:00 -
[211]
Again Ninjaspud, many thanks for your update!
Although i'm very interested in the impact on the market myself, this is not the responsability of the security team. The security team primary task is that the EULA is enforced. The impact on EVE's economy and gameplay as a result of the 'unholy not so rage' probably need to be balanced out by other teams and is not the main priority at this time.
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Pawnee
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Posted - 2011.04.07 09:55:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Pawnee on 07/04/2011 09:57:16
 Originally by: Raznarl
Its called supply and demand, basic economy 101 for all of you.
Yesyes, the 101 of ze economy .... supply and demand. Sounds easy and trivial.
I have a different scenario of a botfree Eve world:
There will be new suppliers, if higher sell prices of an item attract more of them. In the worst case, if CCP finds out, it is not possible to create new supply, but demands stays still high and prices sky rocket on a good, which is essential for the economy, they still can change the rate of mined materials, just alter a number in their data bank.
Advantages for the honest suppliers:
1. They can make their bugs easier
2. GTC will cost less.
If you make more profit, you do not care, if some of the profit is taken away again, because you pay a higher price for something.
Overall I expect a better market for honest suppliers and PVE players, also every PVP player, who is a PVE player, too. You will need less time to make your ISKs.
You might say, in defense of bot users, GTC sales will drop, if GTC prices drop too low. This is not sure. Players, who bought from RMT mafia might buy the GTC directly from CCP. So CCP might lose some customers, who can not afford either the play time for PVE nor the $ for GTCs, but will win some new customers and get profits, which ended up in the pockets of the RMT mafia before.
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Queen Gwenny
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Posted - 2011.04.07 10:54:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Queen Gwenny on 07/04/2011 10:54:34
Checked out website C lately NinjaSpud? |
Manipulator General
o.0
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Posted - 2011.04.07 11:24:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Quote:
Add a capchua upon mining laser activation... God it would be bad but effective.
*facepalm*
wrong thread, dude. This isn't the "How to get rid of bots" thread. This is the "CCP's kicking the **** out of bots, lets all watch" thread.
Fare and honestly reported, I might add
It's true what they say... EvE people dont have a sense of humor...
Well, some people say some ridiculous things here, so assuming sarcasm can often be wrong.
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Fooled You
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Posted - 2011.04.07 11:58:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Aiko Zan
Originally by: Lord XSiV
(....)
Honestly though, I don't think many, if any, people give a F*** about what you have to say in this thread. Stick to the topic at hand.
Oh and when your account gets banned let us know how you chrageback works out for you.. Because, from my point of view you seem to be squirming like you did, are doing, something that will cause you to get your account banned. To which, you think you found some loop hole that will allow you to recoup some of the money you are about to loose. Move on, you are only making yourself look worse, whether you are right or wrong.
This
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Darteis Elosia
Gallente
PHOENIX 2ND C.A.G.
DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:05:00 -
[216]
The fact that CCP has not turned it up a notch against botters is great and the economy of eve will hopefully deflate quite a lot. Imagine how awesome fleet fights would be if a fleet would not be 90% battlehips but instead, some battleships, some more battlecruiser, alot of cruisers and a lot of frigates!
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:19:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Darteis Elosia
Edited by: Darteis Elosia on 07/04/2011 12:08:24
The fact that CCP has turned it up a notch against botters is great and the economy of eve will hopefully deflate quite a lot. Imagine how awesome fleet fights would be if a fleet would not be 90% battlehips but instead, some battleships, some more battlecruiser, alot of cruisers and a lot of frigates!
That won't happen unless the time dilation proposal floated at Fanfest happens.
People will still fly max alpha BSs in sov war because they're basically the cheapest (and probably best in most cases) option for the job - and there's so many people with max researched BPO/BPCs that they'll stay that way.
There's so much "spare" ISK around that even if the cost of a BS went up 40%, it'd make little difference to most nullsec dwellers.
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Darteis Elosia
Gallente
PHOENIX 2ND C.A.G.
DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:23:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Darteis Elosia
Edited by: Darteis Elosia on 07/04/2011 12:08:24
The fact that CCP has turned it up a notch against botters is great and the economy of eve will hopefully deflate quite a lot. Imagine how awesome fleet fights would be if a fleet would not be 90% battlehips but instead, some battleships, some more battlecruiser, alot of cruisers and a lot of frigates!
That won't happen unless the time dilation proposal floated at Fanfest happens.
People will still fly max alpha BSs in sov war because they're basically the cheapest (and probably best in most cases) option for the job - and there's so many people with max researched BPO/BPCs that they'll stay that way.
There's so much "spare" ISK around that even if the cost of a BS went up 40%, it'd make little difference to most nullsec dwellers.
And with the recent changes in true sec rating and how sanctums work, the war coffers of major alliances will thin out when more wars occur.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:34:00 -
[219]
Their stance on botting atm as spoken by dude in the other thread:
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
C) Yes, I'm at this point more lenient on botters from a policy perspective than people attempting to hack the game or the client. If you don't see the degrees of malfeasance the same way I do then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
when I asked why they punish ppl that hack the client by permaban first offense, but botters get a 3 strike policy
I like the "agree to disagree" thing
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.07 12:34:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Darteis Elosia
And with the recent changes in true sec rating and how sanctums work, the war coffers of major alliances will thin out when more wars occur.
I generally don't bother with PVE, but in Provi last year people were making 300-500mill/day and still having time to go PvP. I think you're probably underestimating the amount of personal wealth there is out there. There's people I know that could lose ten T2-fitted BSs a day, every day for months and it still wouldn't worry them.
My hope would be that any loss of revenue/minerals would hit supercap usage first, which has frankly got bloody silly (and compulsory).
Anyway well off-topic....
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Arnakoz
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Posted - 2011.04.07 13:07:00 -
[221]
Edited by: Arnakoz on 07/04/2011 13:07:31
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
Their stance on botting atm as spoken by dude in the other thread:
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
C) Yes, I'm at this point more lenient on botters from a policy perspective than people attempting to hack the game or the client. If you don't see the degrees of malfeasance the same way I do then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
when I asked why they punish ppl that hack the client by permaban first offense, but botters get a 3 strike policy
I like the "agree to disagree" thing
eh, i have to agree with CCP on this one. hackers have the potential to break the game. and if unchecked can be much more harmful to the game than botters even without breaking it.
plus, if CCP finds your bot to be associated with a RMT effort you do get a perma ban. so you;re talking mostly regular folk who probably got started because they figured everyone was already doing it and CCP doesn't care anyways. to perma ban now would be simply cruel, if not in some sense ******ed.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.04.07 13:38:00 -
[222]
I dont think mineral prices will move much. 0.0 imports 425mm guns in order to melt them down for minerals. Where does the isk to buy those guns come from? To a small extent: ratting bots. Kill the mining bots mineral supply goes down. Kill the ratting (non-drone region) bots, mineral demand goes down. Result to prices? Could go either way.
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Sybron
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Posted - 2011.04.07 14:12:00 -
[223]
I really don't know the facts behind this but I *believe* one big problem is that it is difficult for CCP to prove someone is a bot when someone else reports them.
I know I once discovered a market bot [don't want to disclose the exact methods I determined this but I assure you it took me hours of probing and investigation and I completely confident in my conclusion] but after reporting him and getting response from CCP I still found that character online doing it's thing. I guess because they couldn't prove my claim.
I was thinking maybe they should add some new code in the next patch where a person can be flagged as suspicious by various means:
a) Person was reported as being a botter by the community
b) Daily algorithms flag people automatically, for example continuously modifying market orders every few 5 minutes for 24 hours a day is an obvious one since no human is capable of doing this.
Then there is a new UI window which is designed to determine if the person is actually there, and it gets triggered by actual actions so it wont come up if someone is just afk. For example in case of suspicious market bot then each time that character modifies an order there is a random chance this new UI window immediately pops up. It has something like a captcha where the user needs to answer some question to validate they are human. If they fail to answer it 3 times in a row they are logged off. And anytime they attempt to log back on they are challenged with a captcha before they are allowed back in.
For the case of suspected mining bots, this captcha would pop up randomly on the event that the character begins mining a new roid or transfers cargo out of their cargo hold or initiates warp.
And again, this would only affect people who have been flagged as suspect - not just anybody.
And these captcha challenges must be sent by the server and response validated by the server to prevent them from being hacked client side.
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Cutlass Claire
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Posted - 2011.04.07 14:33:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:34:30
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:33:41
I can't say I agree with the majority of the posters here but at least it was fun reading.
Just posting to set something straight. First of all; people play games to have fun and enjoy themselfs. As in most MMO's this also means you need to grind (money, ISK, rare drops etc.). To a certain extend this is considered acceptable. The problem some MMO's suffer is that the time needed for grinding being widely out of wack with time left for playing the game. Same goes for EVE. Reason why a lot of players use bots for ratting, trading and mining is because most of it is so damned boring it makes you want to poke your eyeballs with sharp pointy objects just to prevent your brain from going totaly numb. They are not A) greedy **** or B) lazy gits, they are actualy C) players who can't stand the mind boggling boring repetitive tasks of endless mining, trading or ratting just to have ISK to even play the game.
This applies more for the newer players and less for the vets as they have alternate ways of making huge chunks of EVE money like moon mining (which is basicly fully automated). So instead of banning all the bots the devs at CCP might wanna tweak the game a bit so that the grind time and fun playing time is a bit more balanced.
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Sybron
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Posted - 2011.04.07 14:44:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Sybron on 07/04/2011 14:44:41
Originally by: Cutlass Claire
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:33:41
... defending bots and macros...
Are you serious?
The main reason things like mining and market pvp is so repulsive and tedious is because the botters have caused the rewards for such activities to be so minimized. With a flood of minerals on the market, a miner does not earn much revenue so they must spend more time mining. And how is a trader in Jita supposed to compete with a machine automatically updating orders every 5 minutes 24/7?
If the botters were removed from this equation then these players would spend less time doing such boring repetitive work and be able to spend more time doing other stuff, if they so desired. Though they may find that even doing these activities is more fun simply because they earn more doing it
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Kazini Jax
Gallente
Starlight Operations
Starlight Network
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Posted - 2011.04.07 14:49:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
Add a capchua upon mining laser activation... God it would be bad but effective.
If that is in response to my suggestion of:
Just validate all commands, sent by clients to the servers, that would be used by botters. Only CCP progs would be able to communicate legitimately.
I mean programmatically, not manually. duh.
And it's 'Captcha'
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Diomedes Gambito
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Posted - 2011.04.10 07:09:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Cutlass Claire
Reason why a lot of players use bots for ratting, trading and mining is because most of it is so damned boring it makes you want to poke your eyeballs with sharp pointy objects just to prevent your brain from going totaly numb.
I must disagree at some level, allot of these bot army operators grind belts (mining/ratting) for the ISK and later trade it on the web for real money.
The most obvious ones are the 23/7 ones with multiple accounts going at non human rate of grinding, and I think CCP banned those at the first ban wave.
Now about the ISK making for the new players I agree CCP might want to revise the newby players options though this change will also benefit the bots (the non 23/7 ones)
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clixor
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Posted - 2011.04.10 09:51:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Cutlass Claire
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:34:30
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:33:41
I can't say I agree with the majority of the posters here but at least it was fun reading.
Just posting to set something straight. First of all; people play games to have fun and enjoy themselfs.
Show me the guy that forces you to logon and do boring stuff? It's a well know fact that some people are in rifters pvpping 2 days after subscribing. It's all YOUR choice and nobody forces you to do stuff you perceive as boring.
Let's get the facts straight, there are bots out there simply because it's possible and the chances to get detected until recently were slim to none.
There are many many alternatives, search MD for instance, it's possible to go from 5000isk to 1billion isk within one month if you put in some effort.
Sure, most PVE stuff is repetitive and mind-numbing, but every MMO has to have some sort of grind to give some sort of value and meaning to advance in the game. Otherwise, what's the point?
I suggest you be a bit more creative, if you then still can't find something 'fun' to do then please just quit the game for your own sake.
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RutilusUnus
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Posted - 2011.04.10 22:13:00 -
[229]
Keep up the good work about all this. Higher mineral prices!
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Baihuigau
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2011.04.10 22:42:00 -
[230]
Personally i think even if they do manage to get rid of alot of bots, players will just fill the void, it might take a couple of weeks or a month but it will happen, im anticipating the need and got 2 accounts in training for hulks, in case min needs go up :) ill gladly fill the void.
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NinjaSpud
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Posted - 2011.04.11 07:09:00 -
[231]
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 11/04/2011 07:11:59
***Edit: Updated on front page as well***
Hey guys, hope you all had a good weekend.
Here's a late night Sunday update on our favorite people, the bettors.
The word is out, this thread has affected the botters. They know their being watched now. They have discovered my thread and are taking action accordingly.
Website A has deleted the "The I've been banned thread" (hint, Google "The I've been banned thread", you'll see a Google link that exists, that no longer points to an active thread). Don't worry though, I'll keep en eye out. Eventually there will be more banned threads, and you will be the first ones to know about it. They are trying to silence us, it will not work.
"Website C" (the one who's bot program has been completely stopped by this banhammer) also found this thread. Daredevil, the bot programmer, even was nice enough to post a message to me and Othran on it. (Othran was the one who was questioning the legality of his business earlier in this thread)
"Dear NinjaSpud,
Bringer of botting-related news to countless clueless EVE players,
Thank you for your continued attention to our community and to my person in your reports, it has made me feel more special than I already thought I was.
Ok I jest, but may I ask you for a favour?
Could you relay a message to Othran for me please?
The message;
*Editors comment* the message is a picture of dogbert shaking a wand yelling "Out out you daemons of stupidity" ...similar to this photo
It is the most favourite piece of imagery known to me and suits Othran's person quite well don't you agree? I know Dexington, Othran's old nemesis does."
Mr. Daredevil, I'm glad I can help. I love giving attention, and you can count on me bringing you more attention as the days pass. Let's talk about you for a while, shall we? Everyone who reads this thread knows that your program has been completely halted by this ban hammer. You're the one encouraging what we all recognize as cheating, you're the one stepping on other peoples fun time, and you're subscribers have gotten banned for it.
We'll talk more about you later 
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Opertone
Caldari
World - of - Empire
Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.11 07:24:00 -
[232]
removing bots simply makes the game more enjoyable to players without them having to pay to other parties outside of the game.
Now the serious part. Bots only give advantage if there are very few botters, say 2-5%. If every other person uses bots, there is no advantage. In this case bots push the game out of the design boundaries and outright break the gameplay. But everybody pays botters to play a broken game.
Zero tolerance and mass banhammer purge is a good practice that keeps good people in and bad people forever out. With no double standards and grey methods. One legit alt, one bad alt, all under botfather account. - This must not be .
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.11 07:51:00 -
[233]
Nice to see I'm not annoying him at all NinjaSpud 
Also nice to see he's acknowledged his "other half" 
Nominet case still open, takes them a while but they'll get there. As will HMRC, not as if you can lose that lovely paper trail at Paypal mmm?
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Araknus Prime
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Posted - 2011.04.11 12:09:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Araknus Prime on 11/04/2011 12:17:58
***** Off topic warning ***************
Originally by: Othran
Nominet case still open, takes them a while but they'll get there. As will HMRC, not as if you can lose that lovely paper trail at Paypal mmm?
Unfortunately as Iceland has voted not to repay the debt to the UK tak payer caused by their terrible banking methods I wonder how concerned HMRC will be with someone who may be damaging a game owned by an Icelandic company :)
News Article on vote not to repay
(by the way that is tongue in cheek in case that is not obvious to some)
I do have to ask myself if your have a vote to pay more tax or not who would ever vote yes to that? I want to have votes like that before they spend my taxes on stuff as well.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.11 13:41:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Araknus Prime
Edited by: Araknus Prime on 11/04/2011 12:17:58
***** Off topic warning ***************
Originally by: Othran
Nominet case still open, takes them a while but they'll get there. As will HMRC, not as if you can lose that lovely paper trail at Paypal mmm?
Unfortunately as Iceland has voted not to repay the debt to the UK tak payer caused by their terrible banking methods I wonder how concerned HMRC will be with someone who may be damaging a game owned by an Icelandic company :)
News Article on vote not to repay
(by the way that is tongue in cheek in case that is not obvious to some)
I do have to ask myself if your have a vote to pay more tax or not who would ever vote yes to that? I want to have votes like that before they spend my taxes on stuff as well.
Well done Iceland.
Here's hoping Ireland is next and finds the balls to tell the (German Landesbanks in their case) banks to **** off too.
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Illwill Bill
Nifelhem
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Posted - 2011.04.11 13:48:00 -
[236]
I love this thread, keep it up!
You guys at CCP too; it seems that whatever Shreegs & Co is doing has an effect.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Iarga
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Posted - 2011.04.11 15:47:00 -
[237]
thx NinjaSpud for your reports
last month i unsubbed from eve just becuase of the bot infection in EVE online getting out of hand.
due to your post i resubbed and WOW can i notice the change in local.
ice belts haveing so few people in it and the price rising (tho i usualy mine ore ice can be nice around dinner time so i have 3 minutes evertime to do other things.)
there always be people trying to make and use bots the problem was that those for eve where easy to find and some free and you could get away with it.
at least now the masses that used to bot will not risk their accounts for it..
go get them CCP :P |
Malcanis
Caldari
Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:37:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Cutlass Claire
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:34:30
Edited by: Cutlass Claire on 07/04/2011 14:33:41
I can't say I agree with the majority of the posters here but at least it was fun reading.
Just posting to set something straight. First of all; people play games to have fun and enjoy themselfs. As in most MMO's this also means you need to grind (money, ISK, rare drops etc.). To a certain extend this is considered acceptable. The problem some MMO's suffer is that the time needed for grinding being widely out of wack with time left for playing the game. Same goes for EVE. Reason why a lot of players use bots for ratting, trading and mining is because most of it is so damned boring it makes you want to poke your eyeballs with sharp pointy objects just to prevent your brain from going totaly numb. They are not A) greedy **** or B) lazy gits, they are actualy C) players who can't stand the mind boggling boring repetitive tasks of endless mining, trading or ratting just to have ISK to even play the game.
This applies more for the newer players and less for the vets as they have alternate ways of making huge chunks of EVE money like moon mining (which is basicly fully automated). So instead of banning all the bots the devs at CCP might wanna tweak the game a bit so that the grind time and fun playing time is a bit more balanced.
No, sorry, it doesn't quite work like that. You don't get to excuse cheating because the game is too hard for you. I do agree that the core ISK and wealth creation activities should be made more enjoyable and challenging, and that simply doing this would significantly reduce botting, but it's an "as well as" not an "instead of".
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Malcanis
Caldari
Alcohlics Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:44:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Araknus Prime
Edited by: Araknus Prime on 11/04/2011 12:17:58
***** Off topic warning ***************
Originally by: Othran
Nominet case still open, takes them a while but they'll get there. As will HMRC, not as if you can lose that lovely paper trail at Paypal mmm?
Unfortunately as Iceland has voted not to repay the debt to the UK tak payer caused by their terrible banking methods I wonder how concerned HMRC will be with someone who may be damaging a game owned by an Icelandic company :)
News Article on vote not to repay
(by the way that is tongue in cheek in case that is not obvious to some)
I do have to ask myself if your have a vote to pay more tax or not who would ever vote yes to that? I want to have votes like that before they spend my taxes on stuff as well.
HMRC dont care if you're selling belt-fed orphan processors to pet food companies owned by the descendants of Dr ******* so long as you're paying your taxes.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:15:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Malcanis
HMRC dont care if you're selling belt-fed orphan processors to pet food companies owned by the descendants of Dr ******* so long as you're paying your taxes.
Indeed but the default choice of currency (dollars rather than Euros) suggests he's probably not where he appears to be. If he's US/Canadian then maybe it'll catch up with him - Paypal have to retain 6 years data relating to payments made to a .uk registered client anyway.
If they can't catch up with him he'll lose the .uk domain and the residents of the Dartford address will get a load of hassle from HMRC. In fact that address will end up pretty much credit blacklisted - rightly or wrongly
I don't much care really - its trivial for me to push the buttons to set each process in train. It'll be a fair old time between stages but its just another chancer so **** him.
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