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Farrisa Aideron
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Posted - 2011.05.30 07:08:00 -
[1]
Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.30 07:13:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
imba op **** angel ships ,the most broken ships in eve by far maybe except imba op supercarriers
rly what these angle ships lack ? nothing but they excell at speed signature and agility must be a dumb who calls that balance
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.05.30 07:24:00 -
[3]
Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
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Posted - 2011.05.30 07:28:00 -
[4]
Machariels can MWD as fast, if not faster, than cruisers. The Machariel's 50% faster than a Vindicator, a close range blaster ship, even before you start fitting plates and trimarks on it. Once you fit some plates and trimarks to Vindicator, the Mach goes about 70% faster
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Precisionist
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:05:00 -
[5]
Perhaps the real Issue is the fact Armor rigs take off speed, should only be 1 armor rig that takes off speed Trimarks!, ccp half ass'ed everything and didnt take this into consideration about the Total balance of the game, or at least part of the issues, also lets forgot how rails are horrible and blasters are pretty bad.
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Korg Tronix
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.30 08:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Korg Tronix on 30/05/2011 08:35:32
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet Machariels can MWD as fast, if not faster, than cruisers. The Machariel's 50% faster than a Vindicator, a close range blaster ship, even before you start fitting plates and trimarks on it. Once you fit some plates and trimarks to Vindicator, the Mach goes about 70% faster
Im not sure the Vindicator is a good indicator of speed as its still one of the fastest BS in the game, plus with the web bonus has less to worry about speed wise than normal Blaster boats. Only BS faster than Vindicator are the typhoon hulls and the tempest fleet issue I believe.
The Machariel however has little to worry about due to its ability to not get caught.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
This is obviously untrue: everyone knows that Falcons can always permajam any ship with one ECM module, even using an off-racial jammer.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
This is obviously untrue: everyone knows that Falcons can always permajam any ship with one ECM module, even using an off-racial jammer.
You forgot to mention they can do it from 300km away and don't need a target lock.
Seriously though, yes, Angel ships need a serious rework. As supercarriers very bluntly show: cost is not an effective means of balancing ships. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:36:00 -
[9]
Just blob them with Rifters.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.05.30 10:55:00 -
[10]
The entire angel line is like that. The dramiel, cynabal and mach are way faster than anything in their class and also come close to being the top in dps and tank. The dramiel is much better than any dogfighting interceptor, the cynabal is much better than a vagabond and the mach is by far the best ship in its class. At least with machariels the price does matter. If they were 400 mil I'm sure it'd be machariels online.
Anyway yeah I agree with the op, even if it's hilarious that they complain about not getting permajams with two falcons.
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Eihnlazer
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:14:00 -
[11]
~)~ as anyone can see from alliance tournament results, the machariel is not OP.
They are fast, and have good DPS, as is the minmitar credo, but you cant say their tank is all that good compared to other BS's. If you buffer fit them, they have crap resists, and if you resist/shield booster fit them they are extremely easy to cap out. Also, many fits use resist armor tanking on them, but then their DPS drops quite a bit.
Now im not saying that their tank sucks, but there are definately ways around it.
Anywho, to get to the real point. The mach is my baby so dont nerf it. I acctually quit the game and came back ONLY because i wanted to fly it around again. If you guys ruin it i shall commit suicide then haunt you as a ghost.
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MUHEP KAPU6AC
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: MUHEP KAPU6AC on 30/05/2011 11:19:00 Machariel are IMBA nightmare are OP as well. Bhaalgorn imba more than machariel. Rattlesnake is balanced ship. Vindicator really gimp
Every one know imba is dramiel only,
Cruor and vindi and phantasm are gimps.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD)
Learn to Falcon.
Machariel is indeed a bit overpowered, but surely not as much as Drakes, cynoes, supercarriers and hi-sec mission running are. ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.30 11:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Swynet on 30/05/2011 11:34:03
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
They are not OP, they work has intended. If there is some trouble is with all the ships in this game completely imbalanced with silly bonus, missing slots, not enough PG/cap making them total crap face to those who work fine.
The only stuff I see that bothers me is that marauders are worst, read above about balance and silly bonus, and the over estimated price they are sold while they (pirate stuff) don't need more stuff to be build than another high tiers ship in the same category.
Now marauders price has raised about 50% in less than 6 months..., why the hell would you train or buy such expensive and skill intensive elite battleship when you can do better with some pirate ship and all you need is to mission in low sec to get the bp? Marauders performances aren't even worthy of the materials used to build them.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.05.30 14:33:00 -
[15]
Angel ships are overpowered, and have been since they got boosted. They make epic nanoships. If your answer to machariels is to point at the bhaalgorn then you're just wrong. 1400 Mach Hacs is a deadly fleet. Bhaalgorn fails to counter it but also fails to be more than just a supplement to something else anyway.
Now you have me thinking about the days before the nanonerf wishing that at the time I had the SP and cash to fly a snaked out Mach.
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Mupdadoodidda Bix Nood
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Posted - 2011.05.30 14:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
Now you have me thinking about the days before the nanonerf wishing that at the time I had the SP and cash to fly a snaked out Mach.
LOL because Machs were only good since the buff in 2009.
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Fistme
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Posted - 2011.05.30 14:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
everyone knows angel ships are extremely op... CCP has really been dropping the ball when it comes to balance since about 2006.
All we need is another pie graph showing ships used at the end of this tourney to seal the deal. Lets see if we can get over 50% angel ships again, lol....
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:02:00 -
[18]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 30/05/2011 15:06:02
Simple test on if they are OP.
This hypothetical is assuming you will have speced for said ships since you made your character before those that come in saying dumb things like "I only fly Caldari" and all that jazz. Also "but it cant break a drakes tank" is another stupid point since that means that game became nothing but drakes and cynabals which is just as flipping bad.
If in the ship classes frig, cruiser, battleship, your character can only fly one ship of that class and that ship is the only ship you will ever be able to fly, bother pve and pvp. Which ship do you choose.
If you answer anything other then the dramiel, cynabal, Machariel you are either a liar or and idiot.
If you are a fool to pick any other ship then said ship is overpowered. If every other choice is subpar and one obviously stands on top in all situations its Overpowered.
They have tank, dps, speed, drones, agility. They have no solid weakness or shortfall.
Price is not a good argument point since even for the price they are OP. If the ships cost three to five times what they are now maybe you have a valid point. Same concepts applies to capitals.
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Hermann Fegelein
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:46:00 -
[19]
I think the training should be increased. Maybe make two times or three times the amount of training to get into a decently fitted L3.
The ship is expensive for a single person but for a corporation that's a small investment
You also only need maybe 3 months of training to fly one. Seriously?
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Brigen sie mich Fegelein! FEGELEIN! FEGELEIN FEGELEIN! |
Zed Skool
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Posted - 2011.05.30 15:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Eihnlazer ~)~ as anyone can see from alliance tournament results, the machariel is not OP.
Yeah, but unfortunately, we all normally play outside of the tournament.
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:06:00 -
[21]
Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: slightly sillydude Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
It only takes 5 tech 2 ships to weaken it enough to be able to deal with it.......
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:19:00 -
[23]
The weakness of machariels, is they get ****d very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Both cost effectively and overpoweringly.
They are also hardly cost effective against anything. It will die almost regardless what your fleet blob composition is. as long as theres recons
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: slightly sillydude Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
It only takes 5 tech 2 ships to weaken it enough to be able to deal with it.......
Well, thats to deal with two of them, and you don't need the curse. Two Tech 2 ships is really not an unreasonable request to deal with a Mach.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 30/05/2011 16:27:21
Originally by: slightly sillydude
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: slightly sillydude Machs have crap targeting range. Two Lachesis and two Huggins should eat them for lunch. Throw in a curse for extra lolz.
It only takes 5 tech 2 ships to weaken it enough to be able to deal with it.......
Well, thats to deal with two of them, and you don't need the curse. Two Tech 2 ships is really not an unreasonable request to deal with a Mach.
Reread you posts, they make no sense. Are you talking about dealing with two machs or only using two ships to deal with them;which is unlikely.
Originally by: Straight Edged The weakness of machariels, is they get ****d very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Both cost effectively and overpoweringly.
They are also hardly cost effective against anything. It will die almost regardless what your fleet blob composition is. as long as theres recons
You are just completely delusional.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:32:00 -
[26]
There is a reason why people dont engage our baddon fleets with machariel's :)
They will die. shield/armor/ac/arty
It doesnt matter. baddon can fit tachy's/pulses/beams2/arties and they will still melt machariels cost effectively and effortlessly.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.30 16:33:00 -
[27]
5 100mil t2 hac/recons = 500 mil 2 1bil Mach = 2 bil
That's actually pretty good efficiency. What is there to whine about again?
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.05.30 17:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Goose99 5 100mil t2 hac/recons = 500 mil 2 1bil Mach = 2 bil
That's actually pretty good efficiency. What is there to whine about again?
20,000 t1 rifters are OP. 2B worth of ships should NOT be able to do 200,000 dps, and tackle everything. Nerf rifters.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.05.30 17:50:00 -
[29]
Quote: The weakness of machariels, is they get ****d very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Not sure that the answer to everything in Eve should be blobbing stuff. A lot of people find that really boring.
I think people were talking about machs in smaller gangs. Cost aside they are easily the best solo/small gang roaming ship and also do pretty well in mid size fleets (20ish). Actually in the frigate, cruiser and battleship class the angel ships are much better all around ships than anything else.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.30 17:55:00 -
[30]
If it's truly OP, you would be flying it instead of whinning about it. Gee, there must be a reason you don't. Oh, I see, you don't want to spend the isk.
Face it, unless every ship is identical, some will always be better than others at something. If there has to be an OP boat, it should be a 1 bil fat bait that gets primaried every time, instead of the cheap mass produced Abaddon that get ignored. What you want is to make the cheapboat that you're willing to risk in pvp OP, instead of the 1 bil boat plus fittings. An OP cheapboat will truly break Eve.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2011.05.30 18:22:00 -
[31]
Compared to Dramiel other two Angel ships are pretty balanced.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.30 19:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lady Skank Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
This man knows. OP is too noob to know the power of the Bhaalgorn.
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Cloora
APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.05.30 22:49:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Goose99 If it's truly OP, you would be flying it instead of whinning about it. Gee, there must be a reason you don't. Oh, I see, you don't want to spend the isk.
Face it, unless every ship is identical, some will always be better than others at something. If there has to be an OP boat, it should be a 1 bil fat bait that gets primaried every time, instead of the cheap mass produced Abaddon that get ignored. What you want is to make the cheapboat that you're willing to risk in pvp OP, instead of the 1 bil boat plus fittings. An OP cheapboat will truly break Eve.
No I fly carriers that I bought and fitted in PvP and lost them to a Nyx + some support. I quadbox recons and BSes. I am rich and I fly expensive ships in PvP. I have the same hard time with Machs as the OP. I WILL fly them once two of my characters get minny AND gallente BS to lvl V. My luck though once I'm trained into one it will be nerfed. :-( ------------------------------------------
CEO and Major Shareholder of the APEX Conglomerate Producer of Starsi brand softdrinks and Torped-Os! brand cereal as well as many other fine products |
Bossanova Widya
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Posted - 2011.05.31 00:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Farrisa Aideron Keep fighting pairs of Machs that we need two Falcons (each Falcon has two minmitar jammers and we STILL cant get reliable jams on them and if you miss ONE jam the falcon is DEAD) and TWO rapiers and an Arazu to hold them in place. Then we need decent dps too.
I don't care that they are expensive. They are better then any other pirate or navy BS.
Discuss
Ranting in vein
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mama guru
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.31 01:05:00 -
[35]
Problem is most people fight machariels like ******s. They see the machariels at 50km off the gate then they charge them like lemmings with their t2 frigs/dramiels/dictors or whatever and wonder why they just lost 5 support about 30 seconds later.
A single curse can all but nullify a machs dps, a pair of scimitars will save your heavy tackler etc. Think a little, you do not need to permajam a ship and put 3 webbers on it to SURVIVE. Catching it is another story however.
Machariels are the best kiting ships in the game and the more of them deployed the deadlier they become. 5+ machs and you better have titans or run the **** away cause you will not catch them if they are led by a competent FC. _________ EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak. |
RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 01:38:00 -
[36]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 01:38:18
Originally by: mama guru Problem is most people fight machariels like ******s. They see the machariels at 50km off the gate then they charge them like lemmings with their t2 frigs/dramiels/dictors or whatever and wonder why they just lost 5 support about 30 seconds later.
A single curse can all but nullify a machs dps, a pair of scimitars will save your heavy tackler etc. Think a little, you do not need to permajam a ship and put 3 webbers on it to SURVIVE. Catching it is another story however.
Machariels are the best kiting ships in the game and the more of them deployed the deadlier they become. 5+ machs and you better have titans or run the **** away cause you will not catch them if they are led by a competent FC.
You just make the point more and more that they are Over powered. Re-Read your post and think about how much effort it takes to take on a mach. Its not just the people suck at fighting them.
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El Mauru
Amarr Interwebs Cooter Explosion Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.05.31 03:09:00 -
[37]
Edited by: El Mauru on 31/05/2011 03:13:11 I think the problem with machs is they are too much of a force multiplier. That being said- I don't think they need to be nerfed by much to bring them back in line. IMHO the entire faction lineup (dramiel, cyna, mach) could do with a capacitor recharge/amount nerf so it becomes near impossible to fit neuts on them anymore (to the point where you need to sacrifice a mid for a cap booster and still have seriousproblems with cap when running neuts for longer than a single cycle).
It would make them a tad more challenging to fly properly without breaking what actually makes them fun. -
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:03:00 -
[38]
As i said again. The weakness of machariels, is they get F'd very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Even if the numbers are equal, regardless if its arty vs tachy or ac vs pulse, when you pit a thousand to a thousand, the machariel side is going to cry as they get bricked and stoned hard.
A ship that cant survive in blobs = bad ship.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:22:00 -
[39]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 05:23:24
Originally by: Straight Edged As i said again. The weakness of machariels, is they get F'd very very very hard by abaddon/recon blobs. As long as you blob, the mach dies.
Even if the numbers are equal, regardless if its arty vs tachy or ac vs pulse, when you pit a thousand to a thousand, the machariel side is going to cry as they get bricked and stoned hard.
A ship that cant survive in blobs = bad ship.
You cant be expecting anyone to take your seriously after this post. Mach gang with its own RR makes your claim silly.
Even more that you imply machs do not work well in gangs. You are clearly insane with the ramblings you are putting forth.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:44:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Straight Edged on 31/05/2011 05:44:17 As i said. when the number reaches thousands, we wont care about RR. you will melt regardless.
You can argue all you want really. No one is going to bring mach's in large fleet fights no matter how you argue the matter.
Its the mach side thats gonna cry.
And any solo/small gang melts to fleets. so thats not an option neither. |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:46:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 31/05/2011 05:47:06 So all fighting in Eve is really about the huge massive blob fest with thousands of pilots?
Ed: Not commenting on Machs vs Anything fleets. |
Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.31 06:00:00 -
[42]
No. im just saying, a ship that is good at an inferior role is not an overpowered ship.
For example, Hulk is the absolute perfect best ship at mining. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. No one is going to say hulk is overpowered?
Now replace hulk with mach. mining with small gang
Machariel is the absolute perfect best ship at small gangs. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. Will you say mach is overpowered?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:41:00 -
[43]
Pirate faction BS in "much better than T1 basic" non-shocker.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Adacia Calla
Minmatar Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:51:00 -
[44]
Outrunning everything but interceptors, vagabonds and cynabals never gets old.
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Azuse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:51:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Malcanis Pirate faction BS in "much better than T1 basic" non-shocker.
Lemmings running towards guns is non-shocker -------------------------
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Lady Skank
Ban Evasion inc
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Lady Skank Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
This man knows. OP is too noob to know the power of the Bhaalgorn.
People still cant see it and are rambling about what type of blob you need when all you need to deal with a pair of nano machs is a single Bhaalgorn.
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McBorsk
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Posted - 2011.05.31 11:57:00 -
[47]
so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.31 13:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
He doesn't understand that the Mach is not overpowered because he's not capable to understand there are far too many ships in the game broken for several reasons. The Mach is not overpowered, he works fine so don't plead to break something working in this game when there are already tons of crap ships needing rebalance dammit !
Revamp the ships/weapon systems the bonuses/fitting requirements and some other funky stuff and suddenly the Mach will not look overpowered any more.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.31 14:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
He doesn't understand that the Mach is not overpowered because he's not capable to understand there are far too many ships in the game broken for several reasons. The Mach is not overpowered, he works fine so don't plead to break something working in this game when there are already tons of crap ships needing rebalance dammit !
Revamp the ships/weapon systems the bonuses/fitting requirements and some other funky stuff and suddenly the Mach will not look overpowered any more.
And you don't understand that whinners will whine. It's what they do.
Whatever kills them is always OP. But if they fly the ship, then it doesn't seem OP anymore. It is the people that's OP, and thus, other players need to be gimped. Better yet, make Eve a single player game, where everyone can win.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.31 14:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
He doesn't understand that the Mach is not overpowered because he's not capable to understand there are far too many ships in the game broken for several reasons. The Mach is not overpowered, he works fine so don't plead to break something working in this game when there are already tons of crap ships needing rebalance dammit !
Revamp the ships/weapon systems the bonuses/fitting requirements and some other funky stuff and suddenly the Mach will not look overpowered any more.
And you don't understand that whinners will whine. It's what they do.
Whatever kills them is always OP. But if they fly the ship, then it doesn't seem OP anymore. It is the people that's OP, and thus, other players need to be gimped. Better yet, make Eve a single player game, where everyone can win.
You already can do it, deplete rocks, you always win.
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Kampfpanzer
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Posted - 2011.05.31 16:59:00 -
[51]
Dont touch my machariel, damn you!
And if you can't beat us, join us
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Darcy D'Spledide
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:07:00 -
[52]
EVE: until the next patch, working as intended
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Precisionist
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:13:00 -
[53]
Curse + lachesis = gg 2 machs, curse with 4 turret disrupters 2-3 medium neuts + lachesis 1-2 dom scramb = gg.
Can you still fit a heavy neut on a curse these days?
Im tired of these fckheads probably with no implants, flying battlecruisers(drakes and hurricanes most likely) getting smoked by people risking billions of mod/implant/ship to fight giant blobs of cheap t1 bc's.
Up your risk factor and you should be ok, until then stfu.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:16:00 -
[54]
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
Your answer is to simply have everyone in the same ship because its that good....that of course being the very reason its broken after all.
Originally by: Straight Edged No. im just saying, a ship that is good at an inferior role is not an overpowered ship.
For example, Hulk is the absolute perfect best ship at mining. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. No one is going to say hulk is overpowered?
Now replace hulk with mach. mining with small gang
Machariel is the absolute perfect best ship at small gangs. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. Will you say mach is overpowered?
Your example and your logic are as ******ed as you are. Please stop posting before you make everyone reading your posts lose more brain cells with your infections ******ation.
Really blobs? The machs will alpha your abaddons faster then you can alpha theirs especially when its in the 1000s.
Originally by: Lady Skank
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Lady Skank Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
This man knows. OP is too noob to know the power of the Bhaalgorn.
People still cant see it and are rambling about what type of blob you need when all you need to deal with a pair of nano machs is a single Bhaalgorn.
What ****** mach pilots are you talking about that they would be caught by a slow as molasses Bhaalgorn. They can easily stay out of range of its neuts and webs and rip it up.
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Common Origin
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:23:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 17:21:53 Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 17:20:14
Originally by: McBorsk so get a bloody mach? what is with all this whining about op this and op that?
Your answer is to simply have everyone in the same ship because its that good....that of course being the very reason its broken after all.
Originally by: Straight Edged No. im just saying, a ship that is good at an inferior role is not an overpowered ship.
For example, Hulk is the absolute perfect best ship at mining. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. No one is going to say hulk is overpowered?
Now replace hulk with mach. mining with small gang
Machariel is the absolute perfect best ship at small gangs. however it gets killed by abaddon blobs. Will you say mach is overpowered?
Your example and your logic are as ******ed as you are. Please stop posting before you make everyone reading your posts lose more brain cells with your infections ******ation.
Really blobs? The machs will alpha your abaddons faster then you can alpha theirs especially when its in the 1000s. That you say, "just out blob them", is a logic error of epic levels.
Originally by: Lady Skank
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Lady Skank Try chasing them off with a Bhaalgorn, they will either not engage at all or die if they do and its not like you don't have the ISK value of 5 recons and w/e else you have on the field.
This man knows. OP is too noob to know the power of the Bhaalgorn.
People still cant see it and are rambling about what type of blob you need when all you need to deal with a pair of nano machs is a single Bhaalgorn.
What ****** mach pilots are you talking about that they would be caught by a slow as molasses Bhaalgorn. They can easily stay out of range of its neuts and webs and rip it up.
Originally by: Precisionist Curse + lachesis = gg 2 machs, curse with 4 turret disrupters 2-3 medium neuts + lachesis 1-2 dom scramb = gg.
Can you still fit a heavy neut on a curse these days?
Im tired of these fckheads probably with no implants, flying battlecruisers(drakes and hurricanes most likely) getting smoked by people risking billions of mod/implant/ship to fight giant blobs of cheap t1 bc's.
Up your risk factor and you should be ok, until then stfu.
What terrible advice you give. That lach and curse died in the actual fight. And they deserved it for terrible fittings you suggested. Also if machs die to such an easy to kill two man gang they must be the worst pilots in eve.
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
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Precisionist
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:25:00 -
[56]
Not saying they will die, but neither should the curse/lachesis if used right.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:34:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:43:00 -
[58]
why are you guys hurting your heads anyways.
Most of the time, its simply like this.
Mach jumps the gate/warps in. a couple hundred baddons lock in 4 seconds. POP. 1M-3M alpha of hot juicy lasers. Repeat.
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Common Origin
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:46:00 -
[59]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
You like making stuff up, don't you? Oh yeah, that's because your gang get pwned by 2 machs, out of all things. Where do you point your directionals and how fast do you cycle in the middle of combat. And how do you actually get out of range while tangling with the tackler he's warping to? Try the stuff you're sprewing before opening your mouth.
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Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:47:00 -
[60]
Am I the only one being perma-jammed by Falcons? Especially in my meh sensor strength Tempests and Maels? Or is it cause the ***gy blobs not only have 5-10 times the numbers, but also refit their recons accordingly - prob with 100% racial jammers of my fleet's composition?
Nearly all race recons can be fitted to pwn 1-2 man gangs. If you cannot do it with a recon, chances are that you are clueless...most ppl are, so usually they bring 1-2 recons for every "pirate" (the blob is the good guys), and they drive them off or even kill a couple and then brag for months.
So... countering the silly OP, if ISK is not the absolute answer (and how come large alliances -aka blobs- not having the iskies? someone is ripping you off then, cause some do have em), then numbers shouldn't be either. Cause it's funny when ppl whine about "2x machariels", when there are fleets around with 15x machariels, or 50x cynabals or 100x tengus...
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Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:59:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Diomidis Or is it cause the ***gy blobs not only have 5-10 times the numbers, but also refit their recons accordingly - prob with 100% racial jammers of my fleet's composition?
Of course they refit jammers. Why wouldn't they? Do you swap ammo based on likely resist profiles? Do you swap crystals based on range?
Quote: Cause it's funny when ppl whine about "2x machariels", when there are fleets around with 15x machariels, or 50x cynabals or 100x tengus...
People have the idea in their head that small gang fighting is about some degree of fairness and equality (lol) whereas when you get in a fleet battle, you know the other side is doing everything in it's power to beat you.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Straight Edged why are you guys hurting your heads anyways.
Most of the time, its simply like this.
Mach jumps the gate/warps in. a couple hundred baddons lock in 4 seconds. POP. 1M-3M alpha of hot juicy lasers. Repeat.
So you set up a perfect situation where the mach has to warp to you...........get out and stop posting your fail.
No one would do what you just suggested BTW.
Originally by: Common Origin
You like making stuff up, don't you? Oh yeah, that's because your gang get pwned by 2 machs, out of all things. Where do you point your directionals and how fast do you cycle in the middle of combat. And how do you actually get out of range while tangling with the tackler he's warping to? Try the stuff you're sprewing before opening your mouth.
I tangle with Machs every day FYI.
Looked you up on BC. Why are you even posting again? You have no reason or experience worth a snot that gives you any authority to say a damn thing.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:05:00 -
[63]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:38:00 -
[64]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.
Cause as we all know, mach pilots dont use Booster Alts and faction points that put them far outside web and neut range. Herp derp, of course they do. Even and overheated tech 2 point puts them outside web and neut range even worse with a faction point paired with a boosting alt.
The only one being stupid here is the name of the person quoted.
Again another person that has yet to fight actually fight a mach pilot.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:41:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 18:45:59
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.
Cause as we all know, mach pilots dont use Booster Alts and faction points that put them far outside web and neut range. Herp derp, of course they do. Even and overheated tech 2 point puts them outside web and neut range even worse with a faction point paired with a boosting alt.
The only one being stupid here is the name of the person quoted.
Again another person that has yet to fight actually fight a mach pilot.
Cause Bhaalgorn pilots definitely dont use booster alts and faction web/points as well or faction neuts for that matter.
edit. seeing as a Bhaalgorns bonus is too web range an overheated t2 point wont put you outside web range and will give you a grand total of 3km to both keep them pointed and stay out of neut range (thats standard tech 2 not faction neuts)
Even if you stayed at that range, Im fairly sure the bhaalgorn and machariel are evenly matched on DPS at that point so its a tank/gank race which the bhaalgorn is going to win. If the machariel is active tanked then it may beat the bhaalgorn but again this is theorising that the bhaalgorn cant web the machariel somehow with its web bonus or neut it using faction neuts(the second part is a little iffy as not everyone fits faction neuts)
Falcons should never have trouble getting a jam on a machariel unless the falcon pilot is ****e.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Salvia Olima
The All-Seeing Eye The Wrong Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.31 18:49:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Salvia Olima on 31/05/2011 18:53:11 Please learn to accept that if you want killmails you WILL have lossmails too. And stop whining, it just makes you more of a noob. Also, buy machariels, I have quite a few for sale, yes they are OP, but only in the hands of a decent skilled pilot who has some knowledge of pvp and tactics.
Learn to fly it and fly it. Win in them and lose them in brave fights. After you lose some you will see that there is always a counter to everything - this is how the ships been designed -, and you will find that counterattack in pvp sooner than you expected. Go out to pvp and think in gangs, not in individual ships.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.05.31 19:12:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Salvia Olima Edited by: Salvia Olima on 31/05/2011 18:53:11 Please learn to accept that if you want killmails you WILL have lossmails too. And stop whining, it just makes you more of a noob. Also, buy machariels, I have quite a few for sale, yes they are OP, but only in the hands of a decent skilled pilot who has some knowledge of pvp and tactics.
Learn to fly it and fly it. Win in them and lose them in brave fights. After you lose some you will see that there is always a counter to everything - this is how the ships been designed -, and you will find that counterattack in pvp sooner than you expected. Go out to pvp and think in gangs, not in individual ships.
You wouldn't mind then to change one for some Navy mega?
Promise you, it's not a scam!
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 19:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Common Origin Edited by: Common Origin on 31/05/2011 17:23:05
When the Bhaalgorn warps to its buddy on top of you... they are on top of you. **** ensues.
I can only infer from this you dont PvP. The mach pilots have d scan open see bhaal warping in. They get range before he lands. By the time he lands they are out of range of his neuts webs. He just killed himself cause his buddy dies long before he lands they use fancy boosted faction points thanks to alt booster. Herp derp de derp more.
You also keep changing the scenario. How about you try to create a complete scenario before saying anything more. Rather then saying x beats y cause. So when someone responds you can change the situation to suit your argument on the fly. Its really low class to do this.
Im going to add you and others keep inventing perfect scenarios that let you catch a mach that for some reason was not up to speed and or moving for some reason. Why...Its almost like you have never fought against a good mach.
If the Mach wants to keep the bhaalg warp disrupted, it's got to fight in the bhaalg's neut and web range. So yea dead mach. Quit being stupid.
Cause as we all know, mach pilots dont use Booster Alts and faction points that put them far outside web and neut range. Herp derp, of course they do. Even and overheated tech 2 point puts them outside web and neut range even worse with a faction point paired with a boosting alt.
The only one being stupid here is the name of the person quoted.
Again another person that has yet to fight actually fight a mach pilot.
Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 19:59:00 -
[69]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:04:54
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.
A Bhaal pilot getting extra range on a point wont help him neut and web the target 40km away. Sorry dude you fail at understanding the capabilities of the mods and ships involved.
Range of faction point with boost > web range with boost and range of neuts. You might tag it with the webs but the neuts wont reach it so it will be able to MWD outside your range and be faster then your bhaall even webbed.
You guys just suck its not theory.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:05:00 -
[70]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:00:55
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.
A Bhaal pilot getting extra range on a point wont help him neut and web the target 40km away. Sorry dude you fail at understanding the capabilities of the mods and ships involved.
Range of faction point with boost > web range with boost and range of neuts.
You guys just suck its not theory.
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:06:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:08:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:09:26
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:04:54
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 18:39:39
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Again you are being as stupid as hell, anything a mach pilot would do, a bhaalg pilot would also do. I use the same boosting alts/faction modules, long range points on both my bhalg and Mach. Looks like you've not fought a good Bhaalg pilot. Herp Derp? ******.
A Bhaal pilot getting extra range on a point wont help him neut and web the target 40km away. Sorry dude you fail at understanding the capabilities of the mods and ships involved.
Range of faction point with boost > web range with boost and range of neuts. You might tag it with the webs but the neuts wont reach it so it will be able to MWD outside your range and be faster then your bhaall even webbed.
You guys just suck its not theory.
With a booster alt and faction webs that mach would have to be outside of 50km to not get webbed. Thats the same range as a boosted Republic fleet warp disruptor so the Mach would need to be running or it will die.
edit. Sorting out quotes
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:11:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:12:00 -
[74]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
I don't think you understand the bhaalg's web and neut bonuses.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:21:10
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.
No I was responding to the fact he said a Bhaal would have a booster as well. A MWD fit mach can keep range even when webbed by Bhaal. It can stay outside the 30km range of the bhaal with faction neuts. It gets a range bonus to webs not the speed killing bonus. Bhaals are very slow.
Show me the piles KMs of all the machs being killed by Bhaals.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:26:00 -
[76]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:21:10
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.
No I was responding to the fact he said a Bhaal would have a booster as well. A MWD fit mach can keep range even when webbed by Bhaal. It can stay outside the 30km range of the bhaal with faction neuts. It gets a range bonus to webs not the speed killing bonus. Bhaals are very slow.
Show me the piles KMs of all the machs being killed by Bhaals.
I fail to see how machariels dictate range on a bhaalgorn when webbed. Standard fit has dual webs and a normal mach only has a 1pt disruptor.
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 20:21:10
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:15:44
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
A bhaalg is a 30km sphere of death, that includes guns, point, web and neuts. That is without alt boosting. IF the Mach is fighting outside of that sphere and I cannot hit it, hey i merely mosey on over to the gate or station because the Mach can't hold me, decrease my speed, or neut me back. What are you not understanding?
You cant kill it, yet it forced you off field.
Mach wins.
No I think he is pointing out that the Machariel needs an loki booster to have a chance of forcing an unboosted bhaalgorn off the field.
No I was responding to the fact he said a Bhaal would have a booster as well. A MWD fit mach can keep range even when webbed by Bhaal. It can stay outside the 30km range of the bhaal with faction neuts. It gets a range bonus to webs not the speed killing bonus. Bhaals are very slow.
Show me the piles KMs of all the machs being killed by Bhaals.
Show me the piles of KMs of Machs killng Bhaals. If it's coming down to a Mach's tank vs a bhaalg's tank, bhaalg is definitely going to win, especially since the bhaalg pilot is going to be fielding a slaveset. I think you'd have to admit that. A Mach's shield tank is dodgy at best with a nice increased sig radius.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:39:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Show me the piles of KMs of Machs killng Bhaals. If it's coming down to a Mach's tank vs a bhaalg's tank, bhaalg is definitely going to win, especially since the bhaalg pilot is going to be fielding a slaveset. I think you'd have to admit that. A Mach's shield tank is dodgy at best with a nice increased sig radius.
Clearly you dont PvP otherwise you would realize how stupid this post was. A Mach that can stay outside your neut range and has you pointed and can laugh at your attempts to close even double webbed if you are off gate your bhaal is dead. Bhaals are for taking out carriers. If you cant neut it you wont beat its tank 1v1. But lets not ignore the fact almost all fights are never 1v1. And a mach can go in kill things and GTFO.
Mach vs a gang = it kills a bunch of that gang and gets away Bhaal vs a gang = it dies in a fire
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:41:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 20:45:50
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
I bolded the part you didnt read, he said without the booster you get 30kmish without heat. I said with a booster alt you get 50km.
Also to your other point in this theoretical 1v1 between a mach and a bhaal, the bhaal always wins. If neither have a loki booster overheated disrupt range on the mach is inside the bhaals web range and therefore eventually the neut range, if they obth have boosters its exactly the same result.
Machariel without booster point 36km with heat, with booster 50km with heat Bhaalgorn without booster web range 36km with heat, with booster 50km with heat (this makes the bhaalgorn faster) and it has 29.4km neuts so once it gets there your neuted out as well.
1v1 its no contest and I would say a pair of machs would be dead too.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:47:00 -
[80]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Show me the piles of KMs of Machs killng Bhaals. If it's coming down to a Mach's tank vs a bhaalg's tank, bhaalg is definitely going to win, especially since the bhaalg pilot is going to be fielding a slaveset. I think you'd have to admit that. A Mach's shield tank is dodgy at best with a nice increased sig radius.
Clearly you dont PvP otherwise you would realize how stupid this post was. A Mach that can stay outside your neut range and has you pointed and can laugh at your attempts to close even double webbed if you are off gate your bhaal is dead. Bhaals are for taking out carriers. If you cant neut it you wont beat its tank 1v1. But lets not ignore the fact almost all fights are never 1v1. And a mach can go in kill things and GTFO.
Mach vs a gang = it kills a bunch of that gang and gets away Bhaal vs a gang = it dies in a fire
I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.
A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions. Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
I bolded the part you didnt read, he said without the booster you get 30kmish without heat. I said with a booster alt you get 50km
Then we can both look foolish cause you ignore that a MWD mach even double webbed with booster is faster then a Bhaalgorn and still wins the range dictation. Not to mention overheating the MWD. Not to mention implants and boosters that might be employed.
And that a reality where the Bhaal comes off gate or station to get the mach is pretty much certain to get the Bhaal killed.
The fact you Have to go to such theory crafter Olympic levels is telling in how Overpowered it is.
It takes huge efforts and multiple people to maybe kill one mach. Its fairly easy in comparison to kill a Bhallgorn.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:54:00 -
[82]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
He actually said the bhaalgorn in his example doesnt have booster alt, with a booster alt the web gets out to 50km and the machariel even boosted cant point the bhallgorn outside of this so the machariel dies as its cant dictate range and cant win the tank/gank race against a bhaalgorn.
50km without booster alt? where do I get this magical Bhaal or is it an officer mod I dont know about being used? Im looking at 36km with overheat with Fed webs.
I bolded the part you didnt read, he said without the booster you get 30kmish without heat. I said with a booster alt you get 50km
Then we can both look foolish cause you ignore that a MWD mach even double webbed with booster is faster then a Bhaalgorn and still wins the range dictation. Not to mention overheating the MWD. Not to mention implants and boosters that might be employed.
And that a reality where the Bhaal comes off gate or station to get the mach is pretty much certain to get the Bhaal killed.
The fact you Have to go to such theory crafter Olympic levels is telling in how Overpowered it is.
It takes huge efforts and multiple people to maybe kill one mach. Its fairly easy in comparison to kill a Bhallgorn.
Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat. A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.
I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.
And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:54:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 20:49:08
I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.
A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions. Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.
You really want to brag about the fact you are a carebare engaging in highsec ganks and killing noobships and pods left and right. Anyone that looks at my KB vs yours can see you are full of it. Your Kill stats are the stuff on the bottom of someones shoe.
Come to lowsec Ill show you what pvp is.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 20:49:08
I have a 6:1 k/d ratio and you have a 4:1, if youa re going to make lame comments, I'll make one back and say that I am a better pvper based on kills over 1k.
A double webbed Mach is dead vs a slaveset bhaalg no questions. Not sure how you are even arguing this logically.
You really want to brag about the fact you are a carebare engaging in highsec ganks and killing noobships and pods left and right. Anyone that looks at my KB vs yours can see you are full of it. Your Kill stats are the stuff on the bottom of someones shoe.
Come to lowsec Ill show you what pvp is.
LAWWWL I lived in syndicate and venal for three years you ignorant 4:1 ratioer. Go kill some more cormorants in belts.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 20:57:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat. A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.
I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.
And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs
Link the fit you are EFTing and implants used.
Cause its clear you went and used a booster and implants no one would use with a bhaal to get that speed. Or a fit no one would use just cause you hate losing the argument. And you made sure not to use the Optimal set up a Mach would use to make the lie about your point true.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:00:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat. A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.
I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.
And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs
Link the fit you are EFTing and implants used.
Cause its clear you went and used a booster and implants no one would use with a bhaal to get that speed. Or a fit no one would use just cause you hate losing the argument. And you made sure not to use the Optimal set up a Mach would use to make the lie about your point true.
[Machariel, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5
[Bhaalgorn, New Setup 1] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Obviously not bothered on super t2 rigging and stuff, low grade snakes on the machariel.
edit. no booster on either, all lvl 5 character used
Machariel speed before web - 2738m/s with heat After first web - 1095m/s with heat After second web - 524m/s with heat
Im still just repeating the same points over and over
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:02:00 -
[87]
Rouge is getting owned in this thread much like a machariel fighting a bhaalg. damn.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:11:00 -
[88]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:04:23
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Double webbed mach with low grade snakes and a single nano goes 524m/s with heat. A bhaalgorn goes 1175m/s with heat not sure how the mach dictates range there but im glad you admit that the mach cant point a bhaalgorn outside of its web range.
I havent had to theory craft that much, I have just repeated the same point for 6-7 posts whilst you stick your fingers in your ears and bury your head in the sand.
In the situation described in the OP a single bhaalgorn would solve his issue, which is why I believe they were mentioned in the first place.
And as for overpowered in some situations that would look like its the case, in others the machariel either gets butt ****d or runs
Link the fit you are EFTing and implants used.
Cause its clear you went and used a booster and implants no one would use with a bhaal to get that speed. Or a fit no one would use just cause you hate losing the argument. And you made sure not to use the Optimal set up a Mach would use to make the lie about your point true.
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
LAWWWL I lived in syndicate and venal for three years you ignorant 4:1 ratioer. Go kill some more cormorants in belts.
First 21 pages of your Kills are all high sec. Last time you were out there was in 08. Seems you couldnt hack it. You dont seem to have the experience with current changes to back up your crazy claims.
You don't even have a BS kill on your most recent page. looking over your last30 kills its all t1 battlecruisers, caracals, and thrashers/coercers. You're trying to tell me you are some sort of elite pvp'er? just stfu.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:21:00 -
[89]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:24:42
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator
[Machariel, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Large Shield Extender II Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5
[Bhaalgorn, New Setup 1] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Obviously not bothered on super t2 rigging and stuff, low grade snakes on the machariel.
edit. no booster on either, all lvl 5 character used
Machariel speed before web - 2738m/s with heat After first web - 1095m/s with heat After second web - 524m/s with heat
Im still just repeating the same points over and over
Again NO booster on machariel means you arnt doing the situation I have repeatedly laid out. Also Zors Hyperlink should be part of your speed set in that calculation. Heat speed should be over 3300.
Also 1 armor plate? wtf are you doing! That thing will get ripped up with only one plate.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:30:00 -
[90]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:31:24
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
You don't even have a BS kill on your most recent page. looking over your last30 kills its all t1 battlecruisers, caracals, and thrashers/coercers. You're trying to tell me you are some sort of elite pvp'er? just stfu.
Yeah those are a whole bunch less dangerous then noob ships and capsules in high sec.
He mad!
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:32:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:37:40 Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:34:54
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:24:42
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator fits
Again NO booster on machariel means you arnt doing the situation I have repeatedly laid out. Also Zors Hyperlink should be part of your speed set in that calculation. Heat speed should be over 3300.
Also 1 armor plate? wtf are you doing! That thing will get ripped up with only one plate.
With three plates the bhaalgorns overheated speed drops to 1120m/s and with the zor's implant on the Machariel its speed jumps to 548m/s.
Seeing as it was a discussion about range dictation the tanks are irrelevant really (plates I admit do alter things LOADS). With a booster on the Machariel, it makes its A. less cap stable and B. lowers the cap independant tank (buffer), I was trying to give the Machariel a chance in the whole neuting game.
So with making the changes you recommend, the range dictation argument changed by exactly nothing.
BTW to get a speed above 3300m/s you need High grade snakes and dual nanos and even then dual webbed you are slower than a triple plated bhaalgorn. Admittedly the difference is only 500m/s in that situation.
edit. I have only been arguing that in the OPs situation a single bhaalgorn would kill at least 1 of the two machariels and if the other hasnt run already both of them. Im not going to go say that bhaalgorns are better small gang boats, they are better in some situations and worse in others.
edit2. Im not arguing what are better fits for either ships I was only pointing out about range dictation, some people prefer to buffer shield their machs and others active shield, I had an old corp mate who armor tanked his.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:37:00 -
[92]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:39:03 Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:37:56
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:32:35
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:24:42
Originally by: Korg Leaf Edited by: Korg Leaf on 31/05/2011 21:02:35
Originally by: RougeOperator fits
Again NO booster on machariel means you arnt doing the situation I have repeatedly laid out. Also Zors Hyperlink should be part of your speed set in that calculation. Heat speed should be over 3300.
Also 1 armor plate? wtf are you doing! That thing will get ripped up with only one plate.
With three plates the bhaalgorns overheated speed drops to 1120m/s and with the zor's implant on the Machariel its speed jumps to 548m/s.
Seeing as it was a discussion about range dictation the tanks are irrelevant really (plates I admit do alter things LOADS). With a booster on the Machariel, it makes its A. less cap stable and B. lowers the cap independant tank (buffer), I was trying to give the Machariel a chance in the whole neuting game.
So with making the changes you recommend, the range dictation argument changed by exactly nothing.
BTW to get a speed above 3300m/s you need High grade snakes and dual nanos and even then dual webbed you are slower than a triple plated bhaalgorn. Admittedly the difference is only 500m/s in that situation.
One nano and low grade snake gets you over 3350 with booster. You are doing 3600 with high grades with booster. By time your Bhaal fit catches up its already dead vs most Mach fits and tactics I have faced. Even worse if its two.
Most mach pilots use and alt booster. Not using them in most calculations is like not including tackle on a PvP rifter. Its the reality.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:48:00 -
[93]
Quote: Most mach pilots use and alt booster. Not using them in most calculations is like not including tackle on a PvP rifter. Its the reality.
And likewise not assuming the same calculations on BOTH sides of an imbalance issue is just plain silly. Its not an imbalance issue at that point, it's whining. Of course Steve Carwin AND Broc Lesnar can beat Kane Valasquez. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:48:00 -
[94]
Originally by: RougeOperator quotes
With a booster, low grades and a single nano you top out at 3600m/s overheated, this is all based the copy of eft I just downloaded from the forum.
Even if the mach was going over 5km/s it would still be slower than the triple plated bhaalgorn when double webbed. This bhaalgorn also has the range to start damaging the machariel from inside its web range (regardless of boosters) and has roughly 200k ehp(with low grade slaves and two plates) buffer you would need to chew through before it covers the 6-20km (depending on whether there are boosters involved or not) to get you into neut range then your tank disappears.
With a double plate and slaves the bhaalgorns tank is at roughly 201k ehp and 700dps with scorch, once it dual webs the Machariel its faster (the machariel would need to be faster than it can actually be to still be faster) then the Machariel would have to hope its tank holds long enough for it to chew through the Bhaalgorns buffer before the Bhaalgorn gets the Machariel into its Neut range, this could be anywhere from 6km to 20km but its still unlikely to happen.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:49:00 -
[95]
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 21:31:24
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: RougeOperator
You don't even have a BS kill on your most recent page. looking over your last30 kills its all t1 battlecruisers, caracals, and thrashers/coercers. You're trying to tell me you are some sort of elite pvp'er? just stfu.
Yeah those are a whole bunch less dangerous then noob ships and capsules in high sec.
He mad!
The only capsules I kill are from popped wartargets, you are bad at this. I've killed one noobship in the last 6 months. You are as bad at this as you are at theorycrafting.
Highsec wars are way more fun that lowsec. lowsec is boring and amateurish. as evidenced by your kills.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 21:55:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator quotes
With a booster, low grades and a single nano you top out at 3600m/s overheated, this is all based the copy of eft I just downloaded from the forum.
Even if the mach was going over 5km/s it would still be slower than the triple plated bhaalgorn when double webbed. This bhaalgorn also has the range to start damaging the machariel from inside its web range (regardless of boosters) and has roughly 200k ehp(with low grade slaves and two plates) buffer you would need to chew through before it covers the 6-20km (depending on whether there are boosters involved or not) to get you into neut range then your tank disappears.
With a double plate and slaves the bhaalgorns tank is at roughly 201k ehp and 700dps with scorch, once it dual webs the Machariel its faster (the machariel would need to be faster than it can actually be to still be faster) then the Machariel would have to hope its tank holds long enough for it to chew through the Bhaalgorns buffer before the Bhaalgorn gets the Machariel into its Neut range, this could be anywhere from 6km to 20km but its still unlikely to happen.
The mach gets to decide if he fights or not. He also has plenty of time to get away if webbed out to 50km and take shots at the bhaal to see how tough the tank is. He just warps off if its too tough.
Look Rep fleet warp diruptor has a 45 km rang boosted and over heated. While the Bhaal in the situation of jumping into the mach that isnt boosted has a range of 36 with its unboosted webs. It just dies.
But the point remains that the Bhaal could never solo it as the only way it can catch it is if something else ties down the mach so it can get in range. The Bhaal just is not the answer. The only answer is to blob the hell out of them while losing two or three ships in the process. Many times they still get away.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 22:12:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 22:14:39 Edited by: Dizeezer Velar on 31/05/2011 22:14:15
Originally by: RougeOperator Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 22:03:13
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: RougeOperator quotes
With a booster, low grades and a single nano you top out at 3600m/s overheated, this is all based the copy of eft I just downloaded from the forum.
Even if the mach was going over 5km/s it would still be slower than the triple plated bhaalgorn when double webbed. This bhaalgorn also has the range to start damaging the machariel from inside its web range (regardless of boosters) and has roughly 200k ehp(with low grade slaves and two plates) buffer you would need to chew through before it covers the 6-20km (depending on whether there are boosters involved or not) to get you into neut range then your tank disappears.
With a double plate and slaves the bhaalgorns tank is at roughly 201k ehp and 700dps with scorch, once it dual webs the Machariel its faster (the machariel would need to be faster than it can actually be to still be faster) then the Machariel would have to hope its tank holds long enough for it to chew through the Bhaalgorns buffer before the Bhaalgorn gets the Machariel into its Neut range, this could be anywhere from 6km to 20km but its still unlikely to happen.
The mach gets to decide if he fights or not. He also has plenty of time to get away if webbed out to 50km and take shots at the bhaal to see how tough the tank is. He just warps off if its too tough.
Look Rep fleet warp diruptor has a 45 km rang boosted and over heated. While the Bhaal in the situation of jumping into the mach that isnt boosted has a range of 36 with its unboosted webs. It just dies.
But the point remains that the Bhaal could never solo it as the only way it can catch it is if something else ties down the mach so it can get in range. The Bhaal just is not the answer. The only answer is to blob the hell out of them while losing two or three ships in the process. Many times they still get away.
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
The only capsules I kill are from popped wartargets, you are bad at this. I've killed one noobship in the last 6 months. You are as bad at this as you are at theorycrafting.
Highsec wars are way more fun that lowsec. lowsec is boring and amateurish. as evidenced by your kills.
You want to throw your hat into the ring in a discussion about PvP when you barley kill anything on a regular basis and its all Highsec kills against noobs. You have no right to be saying anything to anyone about PvP.
Also get your eyes checked you have two noob ship kills on your first page.
As for high sec, enjoy your missions carebear. Come to low sec when you get a chance to see amateur PvPers. We will be here waiting for you.
Wardec me if you are any kind of a pvper, see how it goes. Are you blind in not seeing wormhole kills? Have you ever wardecced an alliance with a one man corp? Have you ever noticed that you spelt Rogue incorrectly? I'm guessing the answer is no to all three. With over 1000+ kills, I have EVERY right to comment on any pvp discussion whatsoever. Especially since the majority of my kills are solo, and VS expensive ships unlike your mutliple t1 BC kills/destroyer kills.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 22:24:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Wardec me if you are any kind of a pvper, see how it goes. Are you blind in not seeing wormhole kills? Have you ever wardecced an alliance with a one man corp? Have you ever noticed that you spelt Rogue incorrectly? I'm guessing the answer is no to all three. With over 1000+ kills, I have EVERY right to comment on any pvp discussion whatsoever. Especially since the majority of my kills are solo, and VS expensive ships unlike your mutliple t1 BC kills/destroyer kills.
Pure delusion.
I dont have to wardec you if you just come to low sec, ill make a note to shoot you when you do. OH right thats risky, cant have that.You gots to keep soloing mission runners right!
Yeah cheap stuff all those carrier and faction ship and t2 kills im on are cheap.
The ridiculousness of your comments is off the charts.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 23:13:00 -
[99]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Wardec me if you are any kind of a pvper, see how it goes. Are you blind in not seeing wormhole kills? Have you ever wardecced an alliance with a one man corp? Have you ever noticed that you spelt Rogue incorrectly? I'm guessing the answer is no to all three. With over 1000+ kills, I have EVERY right to comment on any pvp discussion whatsoever. Especially since the majority of my kills are solo, and VS expensive ships unlike your mutliple t1 BC kills/destroyer kills.
Pure delusion.
I dont have to wardec you if you just come to low sec, ill make a note to shoot you when you do. OH right thats risky, cant have that.You gots to keep soloing mission runners right!
Yeah cheap stuff all those carrier and faction ship and t2 kills im on are cheap.
The ridiculousness of your comments is off the charts.
lol look who is mad. Listen, i'm not even kidding around, look at your kills, all t1 BC, and destroyers while i am solo killing golems abbadons and god knows what else. Proof is in the killmails dude. I've done lowsec, i've done nullsec, and the sweetest tears are in empire. The noobs always want ships nerfed and whine about this and that. Don't know why i bother.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.05.31 23:35:00 -
[100]
Edited by: RougeOperator on 31/05/2011 23:41:00
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
lol look who is mad. Listen, i'm not even kidding around, look at your kills, all t1 BC, and destroyers while i am solo killing golems abbadons and god knows what else. Proof is in the killmails dude. Not only that, but I dont think I see a single solo kill on there, you are too afraid to do it, zero balls. I've done lowsec, i've done nullsec, and the sweetest tears are in empire. The noobs always want ships nerfed and whine about this and that. Don't know why i bother.
LAWL just checked BC, you fly prophecies and ravens. Holy horrible, no wonder you have no interaction with faction BS unless they are killing you. Do you even own one?
If you look now you will see the POS We killed. Everyone will look and compare our KBs and laugh their asses off at what you are spewing.
You saying me killing BCs is somehow bad is funny as hell to anyone that actually does real PvP. You see Im no longer actually talking to you. Im talking to the audience that is reading your posts and following them as small as they may be. Since talking to you is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.05.31 23:41:00 -
[101]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
lol look who is mad. Listen, i'm not even kidding around, look at your kills, all t1 BC, and destroyers while i am solo killing golems abbadons and god knows what else. Proof is in the killmails dude. Not only that, but I dont think I see a single solo kill on there, you are too afraid to do it, zero balls. I've done lowsec, i've done nullsec, and the sweetest tears are in empire. The noobs always want ships nerfed and whine about this and that. Don't know why i bother.
LAWL just checked BC, you fly prophecies and ravens. Holy horrible, no wonder you have no interaction with faction BS unless they are killing you. Do you even own one?
If you look now you will see the POS We killed. Everyone will look and compare our KBs and laugh their asses off at what you are spewing.
You saying me killing BCs is somehow bad is funny as hell to anyone that actually does real PvP. You see Im no longer actually talking to you. Im talking to the audience that is reading your posts and following them as small as they may be. Since talking to is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
Fly a raven about it
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Voith
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Posted - 2011.06.01 00:10:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Goose99 5 100mil t2 hac/recons = 500 mil 2 1bil Mach = 2 bil
That's actually pretty good efficiency. What is there to whine about again?
This type of idiocy is what gave us super caps.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 00:23:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Voith
Originally by: Goose99 5 100mil t2 hac/recons = 500 mil 2 1bil Mach = 2 bil
That's actually pretty good efficiency. What is there to whine about again?
This type of idiocy is what gave us super caps.
I actually hinted about that very point in my first post.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.01 02:20:00 -
[104]
This guy posting about how a Macherial can kill a Bhaalgorn is pretty funny, The fact that the Mach would be double webbed and slower than the Bhaalgorn and the fact that the Mach cannot run its MWD for long under the Bhaals neuts seems to completely escape him.
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 02:33:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran This guy posting about how a Macherial can kill a Bhaalgorn is pretty funny, The fact that the Mach would be double webbed and slower than the Bhaalgorn and the fact that the Mach cannot run its MWD for long under the Bhaals neuts seems to completely escape him.
So do you normally go about posting without reading and understanding the situation and what has been talked about?
I hope not its shows a lack of intelligence.
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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.01 02:38:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 01/06/2011 02:43:24
Originally by: RougeOperator I hope not its shows a lack of intelligence.
Irony ITP.
EDIT
The content of the posting is pretty clear, you are either stupid or trolling and claiming that a Bhaalgorn is not a good counter for a Macherial and having lost the logical argument you have resorted to hurf blurfing about kill boards and other types of straw manning.
I think perhaps that I have a better grasp of whats going on in this thread than you have.
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Cloora
APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.06.01 02:52:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Cloora on 01/06/2011 02:53:56 The way the thread was going I was about to go buy a Bhaalgorn since I have a character that can fly it with all skills at level V. However, with the way the argument has been going I'm not positive anymore.
Plus the machs i fight also run with a Rapier, Arazu Rook and a Cheeta with a cyno where they hot drop caps if I was to commit a billion ISK ship to the fight. INvicta guys most of them ------------------------------------------
CEO and Major Shareholder of the APEX Conglomerate Producer of Starsi brand softdrinks and Torped-Os! brand cereal as well as many other fine products |
RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.01 04:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Edited by: Jhagiti Tyran on 01/06/2011 02:43:24
Originally by: RougeOperator I hope not its shows a lack of intelligence.
Irony ITP.
EDIT
The content of the posting is pretty clear, you are either stupid or trolling and claiming that a Bhaalgorn is not a good counter for a Macherial and having lost the logical argument you have resorted to hurf blurfing about kill boards and other types of straw manning.
I think perhaps that I have a better grasp of whats going on in this thread than you have.
At least know what strawman means before you toss it around.
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Asuka Smith
Gallente The 8th Order
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Posted - 2011.06.01 04:17:00 -
[109]
You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.
People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.
A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).
The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.01 04:57:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Asuka Smith You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.
People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.
A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).
The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.
Nonono Angle ships arent op they are just minmatar. See matar players have to have an edge vs everything or they fail miserably.
Ever thought why matar ships are the best in nearly every class?? Because they need that in order to compensate their lack of skill and poor tactics. The only problem happens when capable people jump behind a matar ship's wheel,then it becomes totally op.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.06.01 04:58:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Asuka Smith You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.
People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.
A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).
The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.
The Machariel tank is horrible and it's signature radius is huge, it doesn't have to be a bhaalg shooting it, just has to be something that can track it/hit itto range. Now holding it down is another matter entirely and isn't that what Angel ships are supposed to be good at?
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Asuka Smith
Gallente The 8th Order
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Posted - 2011.06.01 09:39:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Originally by: Asuka Smith You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.
People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.
A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).
The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.
The Machariel tank is horrible and it's signature radius is huge, it doesn't have to be a bhaalg shooting it, just has to be something that can track it/hit itto range. Now holding it down is another matter entirely and isn't that what Angel ships are supposed to be good at?
Too good at it. Just like nanos were.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 10:58:00 -
[113]
Mach gang fight
Face it you invest 1 bil into a ship , you do not want to lose it - if I fly a mach in pvp I want a scimi or 6 and I want a freaking off grid booster and probably a dictor to keep you from running. Stop it with the freaking fantasy spaceship card trading.
People like to hold onto their expensive ships or they don't fly them at all.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.06.01 11:14:00 -
[114]
I keep reading people saying the mach has horrible ehp. Doesn't it get 100k EHP, though? That seems like quite a lot for a ship that's essentially as fast as a cruiser.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 11:21:00 -
[115]
A proteus can have a mil EHP, the signature of a pinhead and it is a cruiser. What's your point?
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Asuka Smith
Gallente The 8th Order
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Posted - 2011.06.01 11:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Songbird A proteus can have a mil EHP, the signature of a pinhead and it is a cruiser. What's your point?
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, not a lot of people can afford the fanciest toys, and just because you can doesn't mean they should be completely broken. "I got mine" is not a balance argument.
2. A Proteus with a million EHP can't disengage, when he commits he is in point range and either wins or loses. The freedom to run from anything that you can't beat, and the strength to beat anything but the most absurd gangs configured specifically with your Machariel gang in mind is NOT balanced.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.06.01 11:58:00 -
[117]
Edited by: TaluxA on 01/06/2011 11:59:32 How do you get a million ehp out of a proteus, out of interest? In eft I can only get a few hundred thousand using t2 armor rigs (lol), which makes it slower than a battlecruiser and incredibly expensive. Also that kind of fitting has no range and barely any ability to disengage.
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Van Steiza
Battlestars S E D I T I O N
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:03:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Van Steiza on 01/06/2011 12:05:13 RougeOperator
Come on mate.
I am a Bhaalgorn Pilot I go out and about soloing in my Bhaali.
My fit is not pure buffer but has 250k of ehp and a single core x type repper dual webs and the like.
I have engaged many machariels and the only reason why i have not killed one solo in the bhaalgorn is when ever i have been engaged by a machariel they have had all sorts of support falcons scimis rapiers etc they are rarely alone.
I do usualy get a minute or 2 of engagement solo before there support arrives and I am a solo pilotI have a 50km overload range for my Fed navy webs they cannot move faster then my plated repped Bhaalgorn and they go down like a sack of poo when hit with Em ive nearly killed a machariel with my dual webbing tempest again he was not alone and i got jammed.
The point your making that there so overpowered is ridiculous If i had faced those machariels in a 1v1 situation or any of the others i have fought they would have died but as with eve alot of fights are never 1v1 I am a solo pilot but alot of the fights I get into are not solo fights so i am designed to fight outnumbered.
Machs are very easy to kill all it takes is experiance some witts and patience.
There not easy and thats what makes it fun to fight.
I use to fly machs but there so boring to fly everyone and there dog has one same reason i dont fly cynabals.
There great ships but there easily killed and countered. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:04:00 -
[119]
the fastest ship will AWAYS be the best for outnumbered fights no matter the cost, whatever is fastest after the next nerf will be next to BE nerfed.
Speed therefore range control is HUGLY important in a heavy stratagy game like this with vastly changing numbers, and therefore will always be hugly desirable.
solution: perhaps make slow ships' tanks more tanker and the speedyer ones even less?
Tho personnely i think a mach thats not pimped compared to other non pimped bs isnt all that overpowered, and in most cases once tackled goes down faster than any other bs!!!
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:13:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Asuka Smith
2. A Proteus with a million EHP can't disengage, when he commits he is in point range and either wins or loses. The freedom to run from anything that you can't beat, and the strength to beat anything but the most absurd gangs configured specifically with your Machariel gang in mind is NOT balanced.
Again with the fantasy ship card trading games.
There's very few absolutes in this game- a Proteus that has invested to have a million EHP is most likely there to hold you down while the rest of it's fleet arrives.
Also - and fantasizing here, I hope you have the time to read my bull crap, which is as likely to happen as pigs growing wings and flapping into the skies - in a 1:1 situation it is extremely likely that the Proteus will carry ECM drones which will let it disengage. Also there's probably 5 other ways in which a ship can disengage - like logging off, neuting the crap out of you, boring you to death , while you pluck at it with your 22 dps fit, going through a gate , going through a WH, overloading it's 100mn AB, while keeping your MWD turned off with it's 22 km scrambler, paying you off, calling you funny names, until you get ****ed off and do some bannable offense, offering to cyber. If you get my drift - it is a sandbox, don't tell me my proteus can't disengage.
And don't tell me a machariel cannot be held down by that same proteus. I'll scan your ass, land on top of you, scramble your ass down and web you and then hit you with blasters so hard that the 100k ehp will melt in about a minute.
And good luck going through my cruiser sized fat ass of a buffer.
But enough of that fantasy Eve, wake up and smell the vacuum and don't bother screaming.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:16:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Dr Fighter solution: perhaps make slow ships' tanks more tanker and the speedyer ones even less?
You've got to be kidding. EVE already is way too overtanked. Have you ever chewed through abaddon or maelstrom with your typical solo ship? ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Van Steiza
Battlestars S E D I T I O N
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:20:00 -
[122]
Exactly if you made my Vindicator any more tanked nothing would kill it lmao.
Gosh guys read my post.
Im an actual solo Bhaalgorn pilot mostly and I know what its like.
Plust ive had experiance fighting machs with a host of ships as i said in my post.
There SO EASY to kill but people dont want to put in any effort they just want to be able to tackle them and hold them down easy and kill them.
Good luck with that everything in eve is not beige and the same ships have there advantages and there advantages are countered by other ships with different advantages.
Machariels are so easy to tackle and kill your only problem is that the majority of machariels do not fly solo and if your a solo pilot like me who likes to solo in his bhaalgorn you may get a minute or 2 before his gang arrives in which every time ive fought a machariel theyve gone down like a sack of poo as i said in my previous post but as always i end up jammed by support and having to disengage. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:21:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort
Originally by: Dr Fighter solution: perhaps make slow ships' tanks more tanker and the speedyer ones even less?
You've got to be kidding. EVE already is way too overtanked. Have you ever chewed through abaddon or maelstrom with your typical solo ship?
yes i own a mach now and have done for many years to pvp with.
The problem isnt that it goes 1v1 with other bs, thats plain silly, its mostly BCs and down getting WTF pwned by a ship that can get into the best place for deploying its dps effectivly, quickly. What i meant was that whatever is the next fastest ship, will take its place, so it might as well be one that costs a bil and is soft as puppy poo.
Even a pimped mach with boosts etc is not tougher than any single T2 fit bs (a mael will out tank a mach all day) its all about the speed, but you cant have a mach going slower than a pest or phoon!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.06.01 12:21:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 01/06/2011 12:22:24
Originally by: Dr Fighter the fastest ship will AWAYS be the best for outnumbered fights no matter the cost, whatever is fastest after the next nerf will be next to BE nerfed.
Speed therefore range control is HUGLY important in a heavy stratagy game like this with vastly changing numbers, and therefore will always be hugely desirable.
Indeed. Too many people - including CCP, it seems - underestimate the value of mobility, particularly when combined with DPS projection.
There's nothing wrong with a really fast BS in itself. The problem comes when it also has great agility, good EHP and great damage and a good range. It's the same combination of powers that the Dramiel has, and everyone knows that the Dramiel is overpowered. The Mach and Cyna are overpowered too, because they have the same combination of strengths - it's just that the difference between Mach/Cyna and their competitors is slightly less than between Dramiel et al.
An interesting thought - if the Mach's agility was cut to "normal" levels, and it used blasters with no range/falloff bonuses, it would probably be well balanced. It would still be as fast as ever, but to apply meaningful DPS it would have to go into blaster - and hence web - range, meaning that it would have to commit to a fight. But its high speed would allow it to choose whether to commit in the first place.
But isn't this just the Minmatar-Gallente problem in microcosm? One race with fast ships and good damage projection, and another race with poor damage projection and unable to get into range to apply it because they're too slow. Blasters and ACs are simply the wrong way round.
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:42:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Gypsio III But isn't this just the Minmatar-Gallente problem in microcosm? One race with fast ships and good damage projection, and another race with poor damage projection and unable to get into range to apply it because they're too slow. Blasters and ACs are simply the wrong way round.
ACs have very mediocre damage projection - they're outdone by the corresponding missiles and lasers pretty much everywhere outside scram range. A shieldcane is significantly outdamaged by a drake or a nano Harbinger at 20 km (and is pretty awful at 30, where the other two are still dealing more or less their full DPS); the zealot craps all over the vaga's dps output at kiting ranges, and even the mach can't hold a candle to a pulsepoc in terms of applying long-range dps with 'short range' guns (can't think of any laser BS with a range bonus to match the mach's bonus to falloff). Blasters being underwhelming does not make projectiles (or the platforms that use them) OP.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.06.01 13:46:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Tsubutai
Originally by: Gypsio III But isn't this just the Minmatar-Gallente problem in microcosm? One race with fast ships and good damage projection, and another race with poor damage projection and unable to get into range to apply it because they're too slow. Blasters and ACs are simply the wrong way round.
ACs have very mediocre damage projection - they're outdone by the corresponding missiles and lasers pretty much everywhere outside scram range. A shieldcane is significantly outdamaged by a drake or a nano Harbinger at 20 km (and is pretty awful at 30, where the other two are still dealing more or less their full DPS); the zealot craps all over the vaga's dps output at kiting ranges, and even the mach can't hold a candle to a pulsepoc in terms of applying long-range dps with 'short range' guns (can't think of any laser BS with a range bonus to match the mach's bonus to falloff). Blasters being underwhelming does not make projectiles (or the platforms that use them) OP.
2 of said ac boats will pwn one of your pulse boat if they stick around, and vice versa. The difference is the ac boats can gtfo when the tide turns.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:42:00 -
[127]
Quote: A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn,
A mach is a pirate faction BS. It cant inherently beat a RS, and it cant inherently beat a blaaghorn. There's only 5 pirate battleships. Its already on par with it's counterparts when you look at it in its class. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:44:00 -
[128]
Then thats your own definition of overpowered.
To me, the only overpowered ship is a ship that pwns in blobs. Because no single strategy beats blobs, except blobbing.
That means to me overpowered is -abaddon -aeon -rap and hugs -araz and lachs -legion
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.06.01 14:48:00 -
[129]
ITT, noobs whining because they have never flown a Machariel and don't know what it's weaknesses are.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:37:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Van Steiza Exactly if you made my Vindicator any more tanked nothing would kill it lmao.
Gosh guys read my post.
Im an actual solo Bhaalgorn pilot mostly and I know what its like.
Plust ive had experiance fighting machs with a host of ships as i said in my post.
There SO EASY to kill but people dont want to put in any effort they just want to be able to tackle them and hold them down easy and kill them.
Good luck with that everything in eve is not beige and the same ships have there advantages and there advantages are countered by other ships with different advantages.
Machariels are so easy to tackle and kill your only problem is that the majority of machariels do not fly solo and if your a solo pilot like me who likes to solo in his bhaalgorn you may get a minute or 2 before his gang arrives in which every time ive fought a machariel theyve gone down like a sack of poo as i said in my previous post but as always i end up jammed by support and having to disengage.
I like this guy.
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sentinel22uk
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.01 15:42:00 -
[131]
at least u know if u kill a mach its not gonna be t2 fit <3
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.01 16:40:00 -
[132]
What is this stuff about comparing a Machariel and a Bhaalgorn in combat?
A ship is overpowered if across a wide selection of common scenarios the ship would see it outperforms everything else with no trade offs. The Machariel requires a scout. The Machariel might be able to survive jumping into a hostile fleet. The Machariel has damage projection out to 100 KM with AC and further with Arties. The Machariel can be shield or armor tanked. The Machariel when in combat and local spikes can probably run away because it engages far outside of web/scram ranges and can control the engagement rage against most things. The Machariel in a fleet fight gone bad can probably warp out to the alignment point because it was likely very far off the enemy. The Machariel solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies but has to worry about fast tackle and a nearby blob.
Now for comparison The Bhaalgorn requires a scout. The Bhaalgorn will not survive jumping into a hostile fleet. The Bhaalgorn has damage projection out to 50-60KM ? then switches to beam lasers. The Bhaalgorn can be armor tanked but has one midslot for a shield tank. Its possible to shield tank a Bhaalgorn but it might not be a good idea. The Bhaalgorn when in combat and local spikes had better hope that its 3 neuts cap out all enemies so it can warp. Its not unreasonable to hope this happens but its not a sure thing either and its going to be butt clenching for the Bhaalgorn. The Bhaalgorn in a fleet fight gone bad is going to be tackled to **** and its going to die if it cant deagress/jump gate The Bhaalgorn solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies (including a Machariel dumb enough to fight it within 50km) but has to worry about heavy tackle and a nearby blob.
I see lots more Machariels than Bhaalgorns. I beleive the Machariel preforms better across more situations. Angel ships' combination of speed and damage projection is probably too much. CCP will get atound to Angels sometime. :CCP:
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.01 16:58:00 -
[133]
You forgot all the nice things about the Bhaalgorn - like being absolutely pro at taking down capitals. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.06.01 17:27:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita What is this stuff about comparing a Machariel and a Bhaalgorn in combat?
A ship is overpowered if across a wide selection of common scenarios the ship would see it outperforms everything else with no trade offs. The Machariel requires a scout. The Machariel might be able to survive jumping into a hostile fleet. The Machariel has damage projection out to 100 KM with AC and further with Arties. The Machariel can be shield or armor tanked. The Machariel when in combat and local spikes can probably run away because it engages far outside of web/scram ranges and can control the engagement rage against most things. The Machariel in a fleet fight gone bad can probably warp out to the alignment point because it was likely very far off the enemy. The Machariel solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies but has to worry about fast tackle and a nearby blob.
Now for comparison The Bhaalgorn requires a scout. The Bhaalgorn will not survive jumping into a hostile fleet. The Bhaalgorn has damage projection out to 50-60KM ? then switches to beam lasers. The Bhaalgorn can be armor tanked but has one midslot for a shield tank. Its possible to shield tank a Bhaalgorn but it might not be a good idea. The Bhaalgorn when in combat and local spikes had better hope that its 3 neuts cap out all enemies so it can warp. Its not unreasonable to hope this happens but its not a sure thing either and its going to be butt clenching for the Bhaalgorn. The Bhaalgorn in a fleet fight gone bad is going to be tackled to **** and its going to die if it cant deagress/jump gate The Bhaalgorn solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies (including a Machariel dumb enough to fight it within 50km) but has to worry about heavy tackle and a nearby blob.
I see lots more Machariels than Bhaalgorns. I beleive the Machariel preforms better across more situations. Angel ships' combination of speed and damage projection is probably too much. CCP will get atound to Angels sometime. :CCP:
What are you even doing with this post? The only part of it relevant to the discussion is this sentence. The Bhaalgorn solo (with a scout or alt) can take on most enemies (including a Machariel dumb enough to fight it within 50km) but has to worry about heavy tackle and a nearby blob.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 18:52:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Asuka Smith You guys arguing that a Bhaalgorn is a good counter are using the exact same specious argument that was used to defend nanos as a whole back when they did the nano nerf.
People would say "well all you need is a rapier, so it's balanced", but that argument was specious because a nanogang could engage any target BUT a rapier, and could only be effectively engaged by a Rapier. That isn't balance.
A Machariel can engage ANY ship besides a Bhaalgorn, they go faster than most armor tanked HACs or hell most HACs in general, they can go around and stir up hell and completely demolish basically every single gang, and the only way to effectively counter them is to have a Bhaalgorn. Here is a thought, why would I be within web range of a Bhaalgorn? Why wouldn't I just avoid fighting any gang that has Bhaalgorn support? (I'm faster than their gang and their Bhaalgorn so unless I'm on grid in range of their bhaalgorn already it isn't going to kill me).
The Angel line is a throwback to the nano days and is basically totally OP.
You misunderstand my argument, in the OP, he describes having trouble with two Machariels, I was just arguing that the Bhaalgorn is a good counter for them in that situation. Since then he has added there being cynos and recons there as well so it doesn't work as an argument now, but the problem in that situation is less the two Machariels and more the Supers that get cyno'd in.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.06.01 20:32:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar ITT, noobs whining because they have never flown a Machariel and don't know what it's weaknesses are.
This.
ITT - a lot of really butt hurt PVP noobs who are waaaa waaaaa about a Mach managing to escape their attempt to kill it, because they only bought one web.
The hull is near ONE BILLION ISK for a reason. You think it should be comparable to what.. T1 battleships? Marauders? Other pirate battleships? This, as well as the fact that just about every single one flown has faction **** coming out of it's ears to make its very measly tank worth something.
The first is a joke. The second.. well no ****. As for the other pirate battleships, it comes out on top in a few scenarios, falls short in others.
The 'angel ship whine' really is ****ing pathetic. A Dramiel is overpowered? How is something that costs THREE HUNDRED TIMES more than a T1 frig 'overpowered' in it's ability to kill them? Most Mach fits are anywhere from 1.1 to 1.5billion ISK in a PVP configuration. That's over TEN T1 battleship hulls. Same applies.
I've used a Mach very extensively and will, nearly always, use a Mael instead as it is a lot more cost effective.
'Balance' is not about everything being the same, kids. It's about everything having a proportional answer. A T1 frig with dual webs, costing <1 mil ISK will slow the ship down to <250m/s with a sig radius of ~2km. Or 40m/s and ~380 with no MWD lit. At which point, it's a Billion-plus ISK ship with average EHP and a weak, weak tank.
If you can't do something with that, y'all need to play something else.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.01 21:15:00 -
[137]
The thread title is "Machariel are OP" The thread title is not "Machariels beat Bhaalgorns"
Its ridiculous derailing to claim that this thread is only about small gangs or only about how the Machariel compares to the Bhaalgorn. Its Dumb. CCP doesn't balance ships on the basis of how they preform in magic land 1v1s that never happen. They balance ships based on how they preform in THE GAME THAT THEY BUILT CALLED EVE. By the way EVE is not a magically fair 1v1 pvp engine.
The Machariel is frustrating to people because it can slip away so easily from a fight. The Bhaalgorn is not frustrating because it can't.
The Bhaalgorn is a bigger powerhouse by itself. It can't kite. Therefore the Machariel is more useful more of the time to good pilots and more frustrating to everyone else.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.01 21:23:00 -
[138]
Then why did you directly compare the Mach to the Bhaalgorn? More accurately, why did you try to point out ALL the good things about the mach while neglecting many of the more awesome things about the Bhaalgorn? You say it's not about 1v1, but maybe 2v2 ... Bhaals obliterate Machs. It's just a fact.
I guess my point is that the Mach being good at running away is an ok thing. It may be too good at it (and IMO it is a little bit - a very tiny tiny amount - too good at it), but really pirate ships NEED to be good. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2011.06.01 21:25:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Hiroshima Jita The thread title is "Machariel are OP" The thread title is not "Machariels beat Bhaalgorns"
Its ridiculous derailing to claim that this thread is only about small gangs or only about how the Machariel compares to the Bhaalgorn. Its Dumb. CCP doesn't balance ships on the basis of how they preform in magic land 1v1s that never happen. They balance ships based on how they preform in THE GAME THAT THEY BUILT CALLED EVE. By the way EVE is not a magically fair 1v1 pvp engine.
The Machariel is frustrating to people because it can slip away so easily from a fight. The Bhaalgorn is not frustrating because it can't.
The Bhaalgorn is a bigger powerhouse by itself. It can't kite. Therefore the Machariel is more useful more of the time to good pilots and more frustrating to everyone else.
The Bhaalgorn I believe was only mentioned as a possible ship to solve the OPs problem, someone then claimed that the Bhaalgorn would still die to Machariels. So the thread got derailed into proving that the Bhaalgorn once it gets locks on the Machariel will keep it there to kill it. It wasnt meant to be a discussion about 1v1s and so on only that in the OP a Bhaalgorn will either kill the Machs or force them to leave.
All of the Angel Ship lines OPness comes from there ability to disengaged due to High speed/agility. Knock that down a little and the problem is solved, make it a little harder for them to disengage when they bite more than they can chew, although they should still be better at it than the next best kiters in their category e.g. Vaga - Cynabal, Tempest - Machariel
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.06.02 08:11:00 -
[140]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3UK3FbqH1A
Since everyone else is posting irrelevant **** about Machs, I might as well hop on the gravvy train.
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sykokill
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Posted - 2011.06.02 12:40:00 -
[141]
yes the mac can be hard to kill but so can enyother ship if you dont have the right ships to kill it in you pay ober a bill for the ship and fitting i mean you cant rilly conplain.
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Azver Deroven
Amarr Pitch Black. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.02 15:24:00 -
[142]
Kinda cute how lovebirds started to quarrel over mach vs bhaal.
Personally I'd rather sit in a stealthbomber with my mates and wait a friendly recon to get near enough to pop a covert cyno, but thats just me. Fair fighting's never been my strong suit but far as neuts and machs go, I can vouch for that. And if we look at the numbers, mach's gonna be toast if both are without, or both are with boosters.
Then again maybe OP met some machs that got around the max range of things when boosted 'n heated, or just knew exactly what to prio on killing order to make it painful for him.
Anyway, my unexperienced ranting aside, mach's OP? No. Its annoying as hell, it'll make you butthurt if you think about engaging it without being ready for it but yeah, you can be ready for it and the fact that it has a counter means its not OP, at least on my books. We need a new term to be mid-ground for underpowered and overpowered, maybe "challenging to fight"? And thats exactly what mach is. ---------------------------------------------------- My views do not represent those of my alliance, corporation or myself. Trully, sometimes I manage to confuse even myself.
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A'Brantox Foson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.02 17:18:00 -
[143]
I have just bought 1 so.. SHUTTUP SHUTTUP SHUTTUP!..
SHUT YOUR STUPID FACE!! :)
Jurgan Klinsman was here |
Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2011.06.03 03:30:00 -
[144]
Oh man so much pro faction bs pilot talk here. Only bhaalgorn I ever saw do anything pvp related besides killing cyno kestrel is... well, myself lol. And I'm not sure what sort of a cretin would a machariel have to be to die to a bhaalgorn. Maybe on test server if we agree to not get outside 30 km of each other? Even if we imagine they both jump gate in order to start close, the machariel can warp off way before bhaal can lock it. Unlike most of you I actually saw it happen a couple of times.
The problem with all those brilliant bring-a-bhaal and similar suggestions is that they assume the other guy is a ******. Reminds me of those old OMG WE CANT KILL A VAGABOND WHAT DO WE DO threads, when someone comes along and says "lol get a curse noob". Really now.
Angel ships are all op, however I'd say mach is the least op of the angel line in relation to other factions' counterparts. Yes, you could argue that both mach and vindicator have certain advantages over mach in certain situations. Nightmare is meh and rattlesnake is utter rubbish so i suppose including them into comparison is meaningless. But the mach/bhaal/vindi trio are in a very rough sense balanced out by their different ways of being good, although mach is imo still best all around.
As for the original post... if you have 2 falcons with minmatar jammers who can't jam 2 machariels you're really something special. But thats fine, good falcon is a dead falcon so my sympathies go to the machariels in your story. Hope you lost many ecm drones too.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.03 05:55:00 -
[145]
I mentionted situations that you might normally find yourself in. The Bhaalgorn can neut out carriers and the Mach can't. This situation is rare and doesn't have much impact on on how powerful a mach is. A Bhaalgorn can beat a heavier enemy force than a Mach before getting bogged down. This isn't too important because both of them can beat solid oposing forces. Its balanced out in that kiting at small blob numbers is the best solution to killing rabble anyway. The Machariel can kite. The Bhaalgorn can't.
People use the Machariel because its an extremely useful ship bordering on being too useful. I've killed 4 of them in the last month and a half since switching alliances. In that time I killed 1 Nightmare. By comparison I can't remember the last time I got a chance to fight a Bhaalgorn. Im sure that I could demonstrate that many more Machariels show up on KMs than Bhaalgorns.
The question isn't if the Machariel is better than the Bhaalgorn. The question is if the Machariel is overpowered. I think that it borders being overpowered but its high price may justify its abilities. I don't have any doubts as to if the Bhaalgorn is overpowered. It isn't. If it was I'd be more worried about what to do about the Bhaalgorns I see flying around. How to kill them and how to stop them from killing me. For some reason I just don't think those thoughts. I think, "I wish someone would fly a Bhaalgorn past me when I was in a fleet so I could get on a Bhaalgorn killmail. I haven't gotten one of those before."
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.06.03 10:22:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Vrabac Only bhaalgorn I ever saw do anything pvp related besides killing cyno kestrel is... well, myself lol.
I suggest you look around. They're used, extensively.
Quote: the machariel can warp off way before bhaal can lock it. Unlike most of you I actually saw it happen a couple of times.
Confirming that using a battleship with no SeBo for tackle is a great idea.
More Angel ship whine, which is just user error.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2011.06.03 12:01:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Vrabac Only bhaalgorn I ever saw do anything pvp related besides killing cyno kestrel is... well, myself lol.
I suggest you look around. They're used, extensively.
Quote: the machariel can warp off way before bhaal can lock it. Unlike most of you I actually saw it happen a couple of times.
Confirming that using a battleship with no SeBo for tackle is a great idea.
More Angel ship whine, which is just user error.
Oh you're right they are used extensively. Like I saw lot of mails when a group of 10+ people kill something stupid and random, like a drake, and then there's a bhaalgorn on mail. Obviously it was the deciding factor. However, to echo the above poster, I never killed a bhaalgorn, ever. Killed fair bit of machs, some vindicators, a nightmare and a few rattlesnakes even because someone somewhere said they are good for mission running, but never a bhaalgorn, ever. I got some 6k kills total between 2 characters. Used extensively, right.
And sensor booster on one is a brilliant idea, really. Not to mention it wouldn't help. Not to mention if you do lock the mach, which you won't, he's now only a little faster than you are. Or are you dropping the mwd? Or the point, maybe its a tournament, or test server? Or maybe tacklers tackle? No matter what you do, your capabilities as a military expert are obvious. You know your faction bs stuff.
Bhaalgorn is a great ship but the sheer popularity of mach strongly implies it is in fact better all around for typical situations you find yourself in. Same goes for vindicator really. Still, as I said, this is not nearly as problematic as how cynabal and dramiel relate to their counterparts and rest of the game.
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Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade ShadowWolves.net
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Posted - 2011.06.03 15:11:00 -
[148]
Funny thing is - I don't really think the angel line are overpowered so much as everything else is underpowered. Sort of like how Amarr have "Abaddon Online" as the fleet BS standard. CCP's done a great job into forcing you to ignore 4/5 of their ship lineup due to being plainly outclassed by a small number of other ships forcing you to train those or stay home.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2011.06.03 15:22:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Vrabac Oh man so much pro faction bs pilot talk here. Only bhaalgorn I ever saw do anything pvp related besides killing cyno kestrel is... well, myself lol. And I'm not sure what sort of a cretin would a machariel have to be to die to a bhaalgorn. Maybe on test server if we agree to not get outside 30 km of each other? Even if we imagine they both jump gate in order to start close, the machariel can warp off way before bhaal can lock it. Unlike most of you I actually saw it happen a couple of times.
The problem with all those brilliant bring-a-bhaal and similar suggestions is that they assume the other guy is a ******. Reminds me of those old OMG WE CANT KILL A VAGABOND WHAT DO WE DO threads, when someone comes along and says "lol get a curse noob". Really now.
Angel ships are all op, however I'd say mach is the least op of the angel line in relation to other factions' counterparts. Yes, you could argue that both mach and vindicator have certain advantages over mach in certain situations. Nightmare is meh and rattlesnake is utter rubbish so i suppose including them into comparison is meaningless. But the mach/bhaal/vindi trio are in a very rough sense balanced out by their different ways of being good, although mach is imo still best all around.
As for the original post... if you have 2 falcons with minmatar jammers who can't jam 2 machariels you're really something special. But thats fine, good falcon is a dead falcon so my sympathies go to the machariels in your story. Hope you lost many ecm drones too.
Yeah man you are the only one to have ever used a bhaalgorn and it's true, they are a useless ship. No one ever flies it. I think you have just overtaken rougueoperator for the stupid award of the thread.
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Bloody2k
Gallente ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.03 15:34:00 -
[150]
Machariel is not overpowered. Generally they are fast ships - that is in the advantage of the Angel Cartel (modifierd Minmatar ships). Actually speed is a easy way to fight in EVE. You have a very high initiative against other tactics. You can dominate your player because, you decide wether I attack of I run away...because I am able to leave fight if I want. The problem is not the Machariel, the Problem is the speed balance in game. Be honest, everyone will kill a Machariel - it costs more than a carrier, so it should be a good ship! I am always happy to see faction ships in PvP.
Again. The Problem is in my opinion the speed balance. It gives a lot of ways to kill a Machariel. It consists of the situation. The problem is the counterparts of speed.
Look at the "best pvp player" (best listed in Battleclinic) They use Drakes and Hurricans... Einmal mit Profis! |
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.03 16:17:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/06/2011 16:17:19
Originally by: Bloody2k Look at the "best pvp player" (best listed in Battleclinic) They use Drakes and Hurricans...
That's because killing one noob PVE battleship with your BC results in more points than killing 500 T2 cruisers with your Mach. The points system is all ****ed up, and "it's all about the points". -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.03 17:00:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Bloody2k Machariel is not overpowered. Generally they are fast ships - that is in the advantage of the Angel Cartel (modifierd Minmatar ships). Actually speed is a easy way to fight in EVE. You have a very high initiative against other tactics. You can dominate your player because, you decide wether I attack of I run away...because I am able to leave fight if I want. The problem is not the Machariel, the Problem is the speed balance in game. Be honest, everyone will kill a Machariel - it costs more than a carrier, so it should be a good ship! I am always happy to see faction ships in PvP.
Again. The Problem is in my opinion the speed balance. It gives a lot of ways to kill a Machariel. It consists of the situation. The problem is the counterparts of speed.
Look at the "best pvp player" (best listed in Battleclinic) They use Drakes and Hurricans...
told u it is not op just matar .... no it doesnt costs more than a carrier , yes it should be a good ship not this op thing why it has a speed of a speedy cruiser+agility? it is broken btw it would be fine if only its speed would be upgraded ,but its range + firepower is also pretty good + op tracking with ac + 125m3 drones... and it has no disadvantages at all ,except its price tag but other pirate ships costs as much ,but nowhere as good as angels
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2011.06.04 14:00:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Vrabac on 04/06/2011 14:06:40
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Yeah man you are the only one to have ever used a bhaalgorn and it's true, they are a useless ship. No one ever flies it. I think you have just overtaken rougueoperator for the stupid award of the thread.
You went to special schools and stuff, right? Too special to learn to read, being literate is so common anyway.
Originally by: Naomi Knight and it has no disadvantages at all ,except its price tag but other pirate ships costs as much ,but nowhere as good as angels
Depends on what pirate ships you're talking about. Rattlesnake is useless but much cheaper (not that it serves a purpose so I guess it's still too expensive lol), nightmare is probably the one that would best fit with your claim, rest are not that far behind mach, just somewhat and even that not always. Cruisers and below tho... yes. But even here you have stupid cases of vigilants costing 300+ for no real reason other than rarity of serpentis agents.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.04 19:51:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/06/2011 16:17:19
Originally by: Bloody2k Look at the "best pvp player" (best listed in Battleclinic) They use Drakes and Hurricans...
That's because killing one noob PVE battleship with your BC results in more points than killing 500 T2 cruisers with your Mach. The points system is all ****ed up, and "it's all about the points".
When Faction ships got boosted I had a friend that started flying a cynabal. I flew a tempest that cost less than the cynabal hull fully fitted. We worked together most of the tims but he got tons more points than me because his ship counted as a T1 cruiser.
Eventually they fixed it but I lost a great deal of respect for the BC ranking system when I realized what it valued and what an smart player would consider skill had only a passing familiarity.
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