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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
679
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:21:00 -
[481] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Alekseyev Karrde wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:We're only willing to have a discussion about a fair voting system. So have it? One paragraph from an IDEA the OP used to start a conversation 20+ pages ago has you sperging out like crazy. Well, if the OP had agreed it was a bad idea and dropped it instead of popping back up today to reiterate his intent to try and disenfranchise us, then this would be a better point. To elaborate a bit, Trebor's brilliant approach to us having "too much power" is to make sure we can't vote, when a much better approach would be to take measures to get more people voting, instead. This fact will be true regardless of how the voting system works, frankly. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4568
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:21:00 -
[482] - Quote
can someone explain Trebor's idea that voters who vote for candidates who later lose are "disenfranchised" please leave |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
360
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:23:00 -
[483] - Quote
I think it's pretty clear the proposed system is a non-starter. The CSM should just admit that and close this thread down and start over. If you really want ideas on a new system, ask us for ideas, don't start it with a proposal stating you want to bend over alliances for being organized.
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RDevz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
117
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:23:00 -
[484] - Quote
Andski wrote:can someone explain Trebor's idea that voters who vote for candidates who later lose are "disenfranchised"
Well, you see, I voted for John McCaine in 2008, and as he's not currently President, I'm disenfranchised. ~ |
Lord Zim
1373
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:27:00 -
[485] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Lord Zim wrote:What the **** kind of system can we possibly come up with which we'll find fair, given those criterias? Surprise me cupcake. Here's the surprise: you can take that criteria and you can shove it riiiiiiight where the sun don't shine.
You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:So have it? One paragraph from an IDEA the OP used to start a conversation 20+ pages ago has you sperging out like crazy. Uh, it's not "one paragraph" from "an idea", it permeates the requirements which you put forth as the minimum, requirements which are basically set there with the intent to **** goons.
Frankly, I'm wondering which universe you think this would be met with anything other than "what are you thinking?", and the way you, seleene, trebor and hans (well, until he basically threw trebor under the bus, real upstanding, high-quality CSM member right there, exactly what we need when CCP comes running to you guys with a **** idea :golfclap:) have basically scoffed scournfully at us for even daring to voice an opposing opinion is, to me, deeply worrying. |
Lord Zim
1373
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:28:00 -
[486] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:I think it's pretty clear the proposed system is a non-starter. The CSM should just admit that and close this thread down and start over. If you really want ideas on a new system, ask us for ideas, don't start it with a proposal stating you want to bend over alliances for being organized.
It's not just the proposal, it's the basic rules they put forth as minimum requirements.
To paraphrase: 1) Be easy for CCP to implement 2) Buff small voters 3) **** goons |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:30:00 -
[487] - Quote
I mean, basically this discussion isn't about what you want to discuss because we can't agree on what to discuss. Trebor wants to discuss a "fair" system, and by that he means one that disenfranchises the "right" number of 0.0 votes. I, on the other hand, would like to discuss a fair system, meaning one that results in the CSM best reflecting the preferences of the voters.
As long as the discussion is about the former rather than the latter, there is nothing to discuss except reject the premise and continue to emphasize it is illegitimate to have the goal of a voting system be to properly disenfranchise a specific group. Technetium Lord |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
631
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:37:00 -
[488] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.
you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM7 rep, CSM 4 vet Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
23
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:40:00 -
[489] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:I mean, basically this discussion isn't about what you want to discuss because we can't agree on what to discuss. Trebor wants to discuss a "fair" system, and by that he means one that disenfranchises the "right" number of 0.0 votes. I, on the other hand, would like to discuss a fair system, meaning one that results in the CSM best reflecting the preferences of the voters.
As long as the discussion is about the former rather than the latter, there is nothing to discuss except reject the premise and continue to emphasize it is illegitimate to have the goal of a voting system be to properly disenfranchise a specific group.
the preferance of people is to have an equal representation on the csm council |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
631
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:43:00 -
[490] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:I mean, basically this discussion isn't about what you want to discuss because we can't agree on what to discuss. Trebor wants to discuss a "fair" system, and by that he means one that disenfranchises the "right" number of 0.0 votes. I, on the other hand, would like to discuss a fair system, meaning one that results in the CSM best reflecting the preferences of the voters.
As long as the discussion is about the former rather than the latter, there is nothing to discuss except reject the premise and continue to emphasize it is illegitimate to have the goal of a voting system be to properly disenfranchise a specific group. This approach just confuses me. I don't see how Trebor's views on what a voting system should be doing and what your view on a voting system should be doing can't coexist in a discussion space about voting systems. They cant both WIN that discussion but why does the existence of disagreement between you and Trebor, me and Trebor, and/or me and you translate to nothing to discuss?
It sounds like there's plenty to talk about. If you (and the Goon you) want to reject the discussion as illigitimate i mean...like ok go ahead (no Goon voted for me anyway so w/e) but i dont see how it works in your favor and i'd certainly prefer to have what Goon brings to the table in terms of organization, numbers, and a knack for breaking systems involved in the debate "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM7 rep, CSM 4 vet Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
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Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:43:00 -
[491] - Quote
serras bang wrote:the preferance of people is to have an equal representation on the csm council So far, most people have expressed a disinterest in being represented on the CSM (by not voting). |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
631
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:46:00 -
[492] - Quote
snip halfhearted troll about the TEST rep on the CSM "you/we" thing "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM7 rep, CSM 4 vet Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
23
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:47:00 -
[493] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:serras bang wrote:the preferance of people is to have an equal representation on the csm council So far, most people have expressed a disinterest in being represented on the CSM (by not voting).
perhaps the incident at fanfest has woken people up it did me also and unfortunately amongst a lot of those in hi sec enough wasnt done about that incident and has tarnished not just goons but those that COULD be assosiated with them i.e other alliances such as DNS and test with the same brush. |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:47:00 -
[494] - Quote
serras bang wrote:the preferance of people is to have an equal representation on the csm council
Everybody gets to be on the CSM!
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/26044_o.gif
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
199
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:54:00 -
[495] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote: This approach just confuses me. I don't see how Trebor's views on what a voting system should be doing and what your view on a voting system should be doing can't coexist in a discussion space about voting systems. They cant both WIN that discussion but why does the existence of disagreement between you and Trebor, me and Trebor, and/or me and you translate to nothing to discuss?
A discussion about voting systems is how to best structure the system to achieve the goals that we want. When we don't agree on the goals, there is no point in discussing the system because the system varies based on what goals you have. Various voting systems do better or worse at representing voters. Other voting systems do a better or worse job at disenfranchising people. How are we to discuss voting systems if we can't agree on if the goal is fair representation or disenfranchisement? Technetium Lord |
Lord Zim
1373
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Posted - 2012.09.10 00:55:00 -
[496] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:I don't see how Trebor's views on what a voting system should be doing and what your view on a voting system should be doing can't coexist in a discussion space about voting systems. So it's just Trebor's view, now, and not "The CSM"? Even though "The CSM believes"?
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:It sounds like there's plenty to talk about. As long as you guys insist on keeping the minimum requirement of "bloc voters need to go to the back of the bus", there's nothing to talk about.
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If you (and the Goon you) want to reject the discussion as illigitimate i mean...like ok go ahead (no Goon voted for me anyway so w/e) but i dont see how it works in your favor and i'd certainly prefer to have what Goon brings to the table in terms of organization, numbers, and a knack for breaking systems involved in the debate The discussion is illegitimate as long as you guys insist on keeping the minimum requirement of "bloc voters need to go to the back of the bus". |
Dovinian
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1107
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:56:00 -
[497] - Quote
Now that I'm back from sailing and still a little drunk.
Hello people! I need to catch up on all the pages on this thread but I'll get it done soon.
Basically, changing the voting system isn't really a bad thing as long as it's done intelligently. EVE Players are almost always against any form of change historically. But after the dust settles and they get a chance to get used to it, all is well (most of the time anyways) |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
360
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:57:00 -
[498] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:I think it's pretty clear the proposed system is a non-starter. The CSM should just admit that and close this thread down and start over. If you really want ideas on a new system, ask us for ideas, don't start it with a proposal stating you want to bend over alliances for being organized.
It's not just the proposal, it's the basic rules they put forth as minimum requirements. To paraphrase: 1) Be easy for CCP to implement 2) Buff small voters 3) **** goons
That's what i mean, because they even said, if another bloc of voters got together like the goons, they'd try and **** them over too. That's a non-starter. The goal should be for candidates to form coalitions of like-minded individuals in order to secure their election.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4568
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:57:00 -
[499] - Quote
Andski wrote:chiding everyone who disagrees with you isn't productive hth~
just quotin myself again please leave |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:58:00 -
[500] - Quote
Dovinian wrote:Now that I'm back from sailing and still a little drunk.
Hello people! I need to catch up on all the pages on this thread but I'll get it done soon.
Basically, changing the voting system isn't really a bad thing as long as it's done intelligently. EVE Players are almost always against any form of change historically. But after the dust settles and they get a chance to get used to it, all is well (most of the time anyways) Can I take that as confirmation that you're backing Trebor's proposal? |
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Lord Zim
1373
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:00:00 -
[501] - Quote
Dovinian wrote:Now that I'm back from sailing and still a little drunk.
Hello people! I need to catch up on all the pages on this thread but I'll get it done soon.
Basically, changing the voting system isn't really a bad thing as long as it's done intelligently. EVE Players are almost always against any form of change historically. But after the dust settles and they get a chance to get used to it, all is well (most of the time anyways) Starting off a discussion with "we'll **** over voters in big blocs" isn't a good starting point. Find a new starting point. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1570
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:01:00 -
[502] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote: This approach just confuses me. I don't see how Trebor's views on what a voting system should be doing and what your view on a voting system should be doing can't coexist in a discussion space about voting systems. They cant both WIN that discussion but why does the existence of disagreement between you and Trebor, me and Trebor, and/or me and you translate to nothing to discuss?
Because given the context of Trebor's OP - "how do we lower the voting power of all those people who didn't vote for us?" - hopes are low of carrying out a debate in good faith are left in serious doubt. Frankly after Trebor's suggestion, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith.
Trebor: "Hey howabout we round up all you undesireables into boxcars and railroad you off into a camp somewhere" Players: "Howabout no, being sent to a camp sounds bad." Seleene: "Crazy conspiracy idiots tinfoiling about how we want to 'send them into a camp somewhere. Sheesh. Now let's get into those boxcars!" Player: "But Trebor said it. RIght here." Seleene: *leaves thread, goes on to bungle some other eve related thing* Aleksander: "Okay okay, maybe we don't have to send people off in boxcars off somewhere, but what's wrong with having a little open debate about increasing public transportation over rail? Right?"
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Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1100
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:04:00 -
[503] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:In the most recent election, for example, almost 25% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not win election to the CSM Holy ****. Contact themittani.com and EN24 ... some people don't win elections.
Are we in grade five now, where everyone must be a winner?
Caldari Militia |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1321
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:14:00 -
[504] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Because given the context of Trebor's OP - "how do we lower the voting power of all those people who didn't vote for us?" - hopes of carrying out a debate in good faith are left in serious doubt. Frankly after Trebor's suggestion/attempts to subvert democracy, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith. With such ill-intent revealed, many feel it's best not to let you anywhere near the election process in any capacity. Please stay away from tampering with it.
Trebor: "Hey howabout we round up all you undesireables into boxcars and railroad you off into a camp somewhere" Players: "Howabout no, being sent to a camp sounds bad." Seleene: "Crazy conspiracy idiots tinfoiling about how we want to 'send them into a camp somewhere. Sheesh. Now let's get into those boxcars!" Player: "But Trebor said it. RIght here." Seleene: *leaves thread, goes on to bungle some other eve related thing* Aleksander: "Okay okay, maybe we don't have to send people off in boxcars off somewhere, but what's wrong with having a little open debate about increasing public transportation over rail? Right?" In serious doubt? I don't think anyone looking at this can say there's any doubt that they're trying to kick us off their little tour bus.
Next time don't state openly you're going to try and rip off people. Even if you have to blatently lie and say it's totally fair, put your efforts towards making a fiendishly complicated system. Not that it'll save you when the likes of CFC leadership are examining it. But at least you'd make it less obvious than saying "put your vote into the shredder."
At least put a little sign on the shredder that says "ballot box". Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
631
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:14:00 -
[505] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Frankly after Trebor's suggestion/attempts to subvert democracy, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith.
Come on man. That's racist ;p "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
CSM7 rep, CSM 4 vet Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
174
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:14:00 -
[506] - Quote
This is really dumb and candidates who seriously wanted to get elected would find ways to get on the CSM.
Also if you think patriotism is bad you should biomass IRL. The only person at fault for a publord noname candidate not getting elected is himself for not getting support or having a terrible platform and/or grasp on things. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1321
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:14:00 -
[507] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:In the most recent election, for example, almost 25% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not win election to the CSM Holy ****. Contact themittani.com and EN24 ... some people don't win elections. Are we in grade five now, where everyone must be a winner? Going by the articles at themittani.com, a lot of people lose. Sometimes it's us Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lord Zim
1374
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:19:00 -
[508] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.
you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later.
You've spent 3 months on this. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1103
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Posted - 2012.09.10 01:21:00 -
[509] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Players legit worry about giving their vote to a small candidate not because he or she doesn't match their views but because they feel their vote would be wasted. And yet, you, Hans, Issler (and Trebor to a lesser degree) were voted in. Seems like the small candidates did fine.
Trebor was definitely on the outs this year, and worked hard to pull in the vote. And the rest of you that I named, your bases are all reasonably small, and there was no guarantee any of you would win seats.
Caldari Militia |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1321
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:22:00 -
[510] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Lord Zim wrote:
You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.
you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later. You've spent 3 months on this. I think the suggestion quite capably satisfies their requirements. If it didn't, we wouldn't worry about them trying to shred our votes.
Next time, try and spend a month on how you'll "sell" it. Hint: Telling us upfront you want to shred our votes isn't going to cut it. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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