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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
150
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:14:00 -
[181] - Quote
It is, essentially, a way to get a weighted sample of the EVE population. If you just want lots of viewpoints you can post on the forums, and you'll get all of them. However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.
Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it. All viewpoints aren't equally relevant: that's the great thing about the CSM. We can seperate out the platforms people care about - that of, say, The Mittani - from those people do not, the perennial losers.
STV allows those perennial losers, to the extent they have legitimate support but poor organization, to get that representation. Fixing that is laudible. But what Trebor's trying to do isn't get better representation, it's to try and disenfranchise the voters he doesn't like so the representation is more to his liking. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
565
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:18:00 -
[182] - Quote
The obvious bias element is one thing.
Take it a step further. How many blocks do you think have perfect exit polling and excellent voter coordination? Where they can optimize their results using their IT infrastructure.
This new system will be game-able, by only those blocks with that ability. You are going to make your problem a whole lot worse. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:18:00 -
[183] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:It is, essentially, a way to get a weighted sample of the EVE population. If you just want lots of viewpoints you can post on the forums, and you'll get all of them. However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.
Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it. All viewpoints aren't equally relevant: that's the great thing about the CSM. We can seperate out the platforms people care about - that of, say, The Mittani - from those people do not, the perennial losers.
STV allows those perennial losers, to the extent they have legitimate support but poor organization, to get that representation. Fixing that is laudible. But what Trebor's trying to do isn't get better representation, it's to try and disenfranchise the voters he doesn't like so the representation is more to his liking. Well that's what the smoke and mirrors is for, there's a hidden lens there to distort things.
But the claim is that it's optimal to distort things... I guess we could use more miners' friends (you know what I mean) around.
EvilweaselFinance wrote: However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.
Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it. Basically instead of sockpuppeting with thread spamming and/or alts, you do it "legitimately" via a new voting mechanism. Excellent. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2849
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:20:00 -
[184] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.
Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Thanks for the white knight though.
Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
150
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:21:00 -
[185] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.
Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Thanks for the white knight though. Trebor clearly implied his proposal was that of the CSM (as I pointed out when I showed him doing it three times in two sentences). Could you confirm that's not the case? |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1080
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:22:00 -
[186] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:PS: If the candidates in the previous election would care to let me know what their preferred alternate representatives were, I would be happy to update the simulator to reflect these. For the record, mine would have been: Seleene, Hans, Two Step, Meissa, Alek, leboe and corebloodbrothers. Nobody had better have Kelduum on their preferred alternates list.
Caldari Militia |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:23:00 -
[187] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.
Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Thanks for the white knight though. Trebor clearly implied his proposal was that of the CSM (as I pointed out when I showed him doing it three times in two sentences). Could you confirm that's not the case? I hope they'd all have done their homework to ensure that the people voting for them would get a "leg up" via the new system.
Otherwise you'd look pretty silly. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Lord Zim
1334
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:26:00 -
[188] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.
Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Thanks for the white knight though. So what you're saying is that in other words, Trebor incorrectly wrote the entire starting post as something the CSM as a whole stood behind, but it's just Trebor which should be lynched, and while you defended it initially, you've now turned coat 180 degrees and are now against it? |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1081
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:31:00 -
[189] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Thanks for the white knight though. You haven't said anything, though.
You've pretended that this change isn't about the CFC by throwing out complete flights of fancy (i.e., what if Kelduum controlled the largest powerbloc in the game, then this new voting proposal would be good, right? What if cows wearing ridiculous hats ran for the CSM, and those cows duped humans into voting for them?)
Actually, I'm not sure what this proposal is meant to solve? For CSM7 ... the CFC threw all their votes behind one candidate. Only one CFC candidate would be on the CSM right now (had he not resigned.) Because they chose NOT to game the system.
Under this new proposal, The Mittani would have been voted King, plus two people he deemed as alternates in the Queen and Prince positions. Without even trying to game the system, the CFC would now have three candidates on the CSM.
Perhaps you should explain to us what is broken about the current system? And why The Mittani's votes are any less valid than your own votes or Trebor's votes? Hell, Kelduum's votes are valid, even if he turned out to be a useless teet.
Caldari Militia |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
156
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:32:00 -
[190] - Quote
let us not forget: the csm also has decided the people cannot be trusted to elect the Chairman and has decided that should be taken away from the voters as well |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1305
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:33:00 -
[191] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Perhaps you should explain to us what is broken about the current system? And why The Mittani's votes are any less valid than your own votes or Trebor's votes? Hell, Kelduum's votes are valid, even if he turned out to be a useless teet.
Well one's own votes are always more valid.
Besides, if it's now about The Mittani we can go back and dig up/necro the old threads by, what was it, a couple of CSM members demonizing him? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:34:00 -
[192] - Quote
In the interest of neutrality, can I request that we stop referring to the CSM's proposed electoral system as "STV"? It isn't STV and has just been named as such to hide the fact that there's some additional clauses which haven't been proposed or reviewed in the real world. As for my opinion on the electoral system: If you want to replace the current partial block voting with a different system, choose one that has seen public scrutiny, preferably one that's also been widely debated in literature, rather than making a system up on the spot that has the express intention of disenfranchising voters ("Reduce ... the advantages held by highly organized voting blocs"), and then pretending it's basically a widely studied system. |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:37:00 -
[193] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Under this new proposal, The Mittani would have been voted King, plus two people he deemed as alternates in the Queen and Prince positions. Without even trying to game the system, the CFC would now have three candidates on the CSM. No, without trying to game the system exactly that wouldn't have happened, because all of the surplus Mittani votes would have been thrown out. You see, that's the entire intention of calling the proposal "STV-CD": you associate it with STV, where you have an idea how it works. Yet it doesn't work like that, because it isn't STV.
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Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
221
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:37:00 -
[194] - Quote
When election time comes around Im gonna link the **** out of this thread to remind people how the CSM couldn't make up their mind whether they did or did not want to actively toss out the votes of people because they don't like who they are voting for. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1306
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:38:00 -
[195] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:In the interest of neutrality, can I request that we stop referring to the CSM's proposed electoral system as "STV"? It isn't STV and has just been named as such to hide the fact that there's some additional clauses which haven't been proposed or reviewed in the real world. As for my opinion on the electoral system: If you want to replace the current partial block voting with a different system, choose one that has seen public scrutiny, preferably one that's also been widely debated in literature, rather than making a system up on the spot that has the express intention of disenfranchising voters ("Reduce ... the advantages held by highly organized voting blocs"), and then pretending it's basically a widely studied system. Presumably the hope is that, in Jita Park, it would not recieve too much attention which is then just whitewashed as "ah it was discussed" (as per the topic) and then they use it to help ensure they get to stay and stay CFC free.
Perhaps not, but hey, how many people are going to see this, other than a few people noting it's not a great idea. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:48:00 -
[196] - Quote
Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1306
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:50:00 -
[197] - Quote
Remnant Madeveda wrote:Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro".
As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:51:00 -
[198] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Remnant Madeveda wrote:Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro". As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired.
There are rules about that though... |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
221
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:52:00 -
[199] - Quote
What about a Poll Tax? We can RP it in terms of needing to fund the voting infrastructure. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1307
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 18:54:00 -
[200] - Quote
Remnant Madeveda wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Remnant Madeveda wrote:Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro". As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired. There are rules about that though... Perfect, so it'll be long "discussed" "settled" and "approved" in time to maximize their voters' potential. Excellent. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:58:00 -
[201] - Quote
I'm assuming they will at least have to exlpain how they want this system to work. That thread will also go for a fair few pages if they decide to go with this model. So in short, there will be exposure, even if we have to figure out creative ways to make it happen. The problem will of course be the TL:DR groups, but meh I assume most of them wont vote anyways. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1308
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:13:00 -
[202] - Quote
Remnant Madeveda wrote:I'm assuming they will at least have to exlpain how they want this system to work. That thread will also go for a fair few pages if they decide to go with this model. So in short, there will be exposure, even if we have to figure out creative ways to make it happen. The problem will of course be the TL:DR groups, but meh I assume most of them wont vote anyways. Note that the whole discussion is framed already as " there are many election systems that are clearly better than the current one."
This should not be simply accepted as given. Of course having votes transfer means you can have an ideal situation where you split all your votes N ways, and have alternatives in a ring so you'll get the most number of people in. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:18:00 -
[203] - Quote
Given that in Eve the meta-game is as important or moreso than the game itself it seems silly to believe the current system is flawed at all. If you really consider what goes on and how much time is put into the work of gaining recognition as a competant individual then you see these people, generally, deserve to be on CSM if they are elected. With that being said after losing a member of their team the current CSM appears to have lost an extra bit of guidance that would potentially allow them to be more cohesive, competant, and perhaps effective as a team.
So, my contention is leave the system as it is, and attempt to educate the playerbase you are so concerned with being underrepresented. If they are concerned about it at all, and it's not just sockpuppet arguements, then they will get people on CSM. I mean they keep saying that highsec is where most of the game is, if that's the case then it clearly should be able to dominate any election. Jesus, you'd think someone might realize that and make a voting system based on each person who cares having an opinion and using it to elect an official without any extra bullshit. You know a true democracy..oh wait...
This is a simple form of democracy, it does not need to be ******* rocket science. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
665
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:22:00 -
[204] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I asked why they felt it targeted the CFC in particular and not "whichever group in the game has the most organized power". In other words, if your worst nightmare came true and Kelduum metagamed EVE University into the largest, most organized player entity in the game, how would Trebor's proposal treat EVE Uni any different than the CFC?
Why is disenfranchising a large portion of ANY organized voting bloc, whether it's Eve-U, the CFC, the HBC, or some future, not-yet-created bloc, okay. Answer that, it's the question you've been dancing around the whole ****ing thread. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
fofofo |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1313
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:27:00 -
[205] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I asked why they felt it targeted the CFC in particular and not "whichever group in the game has the most organized power". In other words, if your worst nightmare came true and Kelduum metagamed EVE University into the largest, most organized player entity in the game, how would Trebor's proposal treat EVE Uni any different than the CFC?
Why is disenfranchising a large portion of ANY organized voting bloc, whether it's Eve-U, the CFC, the HBC, or some future, not-yet-created bloc, okay. Answer that, it's the question you've been dancing around the whole ****ing thread. Because people working together is bad.
This is EVE, where "group mining" is a multiboxed fleet.
I should add, having friends is bad (sea of blues), and having friends who like to undock together is even worse (blob!). Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4556
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:31:00 -
[206] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: I asked why they felt it targeted the CFC in particular and not "whichever group in the game has the most organized power". In other words, if your worst nightmare came true and Kelduum metagamed EVE University into the largest, most organized player entity in the game, how would Trebor's proposal treat EVE Uni any different than the CFC?
Why is disenfranchising a large portion of ANY organized voting bloc, whether it's Eve-U, the CFC, the HBC, or some future, not-yet-created bloc, okay. Answer that, it's the question you've been dancing around the whole ****ing thread.
it's perfectly fine because our chosen candidate still gets in right?
I mean sure it makes only three fifths of the votes for the top guy relevant in this "candidate designated STV" but that's ~democracy~ please leave |
Brooson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:32:00 -
[207] - Quote
I want proof that this STV idea was discussed in previous CSM.
If not I am going to assume that we are being lied to by our current CSM. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1313
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:32:00 -
[208] - Quote
Andski wrote:it's perfectly fine because our chosen candidate still gets in right?
I mean sure it makes only three fifths of the votes for the top guy relevant in this "candidate designated STV" but that's ~democracy~ Yeah, they gotta make sure "we" never get in otherwise we'll play the same game and then next time they'll get no one in. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:34:00 -
[209] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Andski wrote:it's perfectly fine because our chosen candidate still gets in right?
I mean sure it makes only three fifths of the votes for the top guy relevant in this "candidate designated STV" but that's ~democracy~ Yeah, they gotta make sure "we" never get in otherwise we'll play the same game and then next time they'll get no one in.
I think everyone is forgetting two important variables, CFC and HBC bad at Eve.. good at politics. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1313
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 19:41:00 -
[210] - Quote
Remnant Madeveda wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Andski wrote:it's perfectly fine because our chosen candidate still gets in right?
I mean sure it makes only three fifths of the votes for the top guy relevant in this "candidate designated STV" but that's ~democracy~ Yeah, they gotta make sure "we" never get in otherwise we'll play the same game and then next time they'll get no one in. I think everyone is forgetting two important variables, CFC and HBC bad at Eve.. good at politics. Politics are so amusing sometimes.
You almost CAN'T get blueballed in Forums Online. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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