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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Ascendance.
374
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Posted - 2012.09.08 15:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
The read of the full simulated election was interesting. While not an accurate way to evaluate how the election would have gone becouse we do not know how the rest of the candidits would have placed as there second choices it still elected 11 of the 12 current CSM but not in the same order.
Will there be a run using the Goons desired formule? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2849
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 15:57:00 -
[62] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote: What you've done here is admit exactly what we've been charging: this is not an attempt to make a "fair" system. This is an attempt to specifically bias the system against the CFC.
No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
Let's say the CFC disappeared overnight, and another group rose to take its place? How would Trebor's proposal treat that other large entity any different? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4538
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Posted - 2012.09.08 15:58:00 -
[63] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Assuming for a moment that any large entity was capable of and succeeded in achieving 3/14 seats on CSM. This is over 20% of council representation. I think most players can understand that there might be something unfair about any group that holds less than 20% of the player population covering 20% of the council. Does anyone see any reason for that discrepancy to exist, or have an explanation as to how that discrepancy benefits the players?.
So did your votes come from 7% of the player population? please leave |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:01:00 -
[64] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
Trebor's proposal is to ensure that voting blocks achieve lower-than-proportional representation. It's not intended to ensure we have a fair amount of representation: it is an attempt to make sure we have an unfairly low amount. |
Lord Zim
1322
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:02:00 -
[65] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:You're absolutely right. Invading was a poor choice of words, it implies that Goons don't have a right to be here. Thank you for pointing this out as it was not my intention. I was commenting more on the speed and force with which they responded. You know why the response was what it was? It was because it was FW farmville level of openly gameable, and the fact that it's so openly designed with one specific goal in mind (nerf CFC) makes it even worse. It's seriously like going back to the ankh-era of navelgazing combined with CCP-quality game mechanics design of the past few years (titans own subcaps? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW was gameable as all hell? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW is now farmville? shucks, didn't see that one coming.)
How long have you guys been discussing this topic, anyway? Since the whole CSM "how can we vote someone off the CSM?" meeting where the CSM meeting minutes were from?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Every player has a stake in how the elections are reformed, and is welcome to speak up about this. Good thing you're not coming in here telling us to shut up because we're not positive enough, then. |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1405
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:"We are posting this idea as a call for discussion"
*people start a discussion on why the idea is bad*
"Grr why are people INVADING and TINFOILING this thread, we wanted a discussion"
goons INVADING my thread |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: Let's say the CFC disappeared overnight, and another group rose to take its place? How would Trebor's proposal treat that other large entity any different?
It would, as now, systematically throw out votes for qualified and effective candidates because those are a political threat.
Currently, if I vote for Eminiently Qualified Candidate, and you vote for Random Shirtlord Running A Vanity Campaign, but my Eminiently Qualified Candidate already has a quota, you throw out my vote. However, your Random Shirtlord Running a Vanity Campaign vote is preserved (and moved to Random Shirtlord #2). That's what's going on here that's unacceptable. |
Sal Volatile
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
A "bloc" of players (however you define it) might also have internal divisions which, while agreeing on most issues, might disagree on a few things or just have different priorities.
Additionally, organized blocs do not even have to run candidates themselves to be powerful. It's an interesting thought experiment to consider what would happen if a large coalition like the CFC or HBC pointedly did not run candidates or make official endorsements, but strongly encouraged their members to vote, and see what the overall shift to the political landscape would be as CSM candidates tried to court their votes.
Suppose this did happen, and an otherwise completely independent candidate managed to court a huge overvote without intending to. Under the proposed system, all those overvotes will have to be thrown out. How is that fair to the voters who independently cast them?
Essentially, this proposal seems to take as a given the often asserted but patently ridiculous idea that voters in large blocs do not actually have free will and are just toeing the party line, rather than making a conscious choice to express their concerns in participatory democracy. This proposal quite openly designates their votes as less valuable.
The proposal is, itself, dehumanizing, and I can see why people might actually "take it personal |
digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: What you've done here is admit exactly what we've been charging: this is not an attempt to make a "fair" system. This is an attempt to specifically bias the system against the CFC.
No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
How is this even a problem? Before you laugh, understand that I ask this question honestly. What exactly can you lay at the feet of the current system? You are on the CSM right now. It's up to you to fix represent us. How has the current system influenced the game since you've been appointed to the CSM? If there are issues internally to the CSM, you have no one but yourselves to blame. That isn't a player problem, it's a CSM problem. If you are trying to pin your current failures on the CFC, then good luck, because it's not the CFC's fault you are ineffective at your job.
Here's a tip about voting: the majority wins. I know this is a strange concept but there will always be a majority. Democracy is crazy, right?
The voting system isn't broken. You and the rest of the CSM are broken. I'm disappointed in you. I could say many things about the majority of the CSM, but I had hope for you and you've flubbed it.
Again, I reiterate: do your damn job. Leave this thread and go make our game work.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
550
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:05:00 -
[70] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Alchenar wrote: Hey guys what if there was a correlation between being in the leadership of the most successful and largest coalition in the game and being competent, articulate and making good suggestions? I'd say the chance of that correlation existing is extremely high.
I would also say the chance of people being competent/good that are in smaller organizations with with no record of success probably also correlates. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
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serras bang
Lucien Coven
21
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:07:00 -
[71] - Quote
well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2849
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:08:00 -
[72] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
Trebor's proposal is to ensure that voting blocks achieve lower-than-proportional representation. It's not intended to ensure we have a fair amount of representation: it is an attempt to make sure we have an unfairly low amount.
What percentage of the player base does the CFC represent, and how does this proposal ensure that they receive less that that percentage of coverage on the CSM? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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David Carel
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
261
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:08:00 -
[73] - Quote
serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance.
Alt alliances, been there; done that. |
Kitty Vintner
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
Andski wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Assuming for a moment that any large entity was capable of and succeeded in achieving 3/14 seats on CSM. This is over 20% of council representation. I think most players can understand that there might be something unfair about any group that holds less than 20% of the player population covering 20% of the council. Does anyone see any reason for that discrepancy to exist, or have an explanation as to how that discrepancy benefits the players?. So did your votes come from 7% of the player population?
Assuming 350,000 subscribers Hans' votes (2,439) come from .7% of the player population. That's 7 tenths of 1 percent. Mittens' 10,058 votes represent approximately 3% of the player population. |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
202
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
THERE ARE NO SECOND CLASS CITIZENS IN NEW EDEN
except fweddit Follow me on twitter |
Lord Zim
1322
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:09:00 -
[76] - Quote
serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. The system is setup to nerf the voting power of the CFC. How many alliances are within the CFC? How does this affect your suggestion? |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
21
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:10:00 -
[77] - Quote
David Carel wrote:serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. Alt alliances, been there; done that.
lol to bad i still win :P
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David Carel
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
261
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:10:00 -
[78] - Quote
serras bang wrote:David Carel wrote:serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. Alt alliances, been there; done that. lol to bad i still win :P What? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4539
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:10:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kitty Vintner wrote:Andski wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Assuming for a moment that any large entity was capable of and succeeded in achieving 3/14 seats on CSM. This is over 20% of council representation. I think most players can understand that there might be something unfair about any group that holds less than 20% of the player population covering 20% of the council. Does anyone see any reason for that discrepancy to exist, or have an explanation as to how that discrepancy benefits the players?. So did your votes come from 7% of the player population? Assuming 350,000 subscribers Hans' votes (2,439) come from .7% of the player population. That's 7 tenths of 1 percent. Mittens' 10,058 votes represent approximately 3% of the player population.
It was a rhetorical question. Of course everyone in the CSM is "over-representing" their individual "constituencies." please leave |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
764
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:11:00 -
[80] - Quote
serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance.
We split Goonswarm into Goonswarm1, Goonswarm2, Goonswarm3 etc and field one candidate fro each.
What on earth do you expect? Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1303
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
David Carel wrote:serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. Alt alliances, been there; done that. So we'd have to have, what FA, FCON, SMA, EXE, LAWN, TNT, C0NVICTED, RZR ? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: What percentage of the player base does the CFC represent, and how does this proposal ensure that they receive less that that percentage of coverage on the CSM?
This system is intended, deliberately, to throw out overvotes. Large blocs, voting in clearly qualified candidates, produce overvotes. Those are thrown out.
STV is designed to ensure nobody's votes are thrown out. You've found that to be unacceptable: the voters, it seems, keep not voting the way you think they should. So you're designing the system to throw out the votes you don't like, and keep the votes you do like.
It's a laudible goal to move to STV to reduce wasted votes. It's a crass undemocratic powergrab to deliberately design the system to only preserve the votes you want to preserve and throw out those you don't. |
Brooson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:11:00 -
[83] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote: What you've done here is admit exactly what we've been charging: this is not an attempt to make a "fair" system. This is an attempt to specifically bias the system against the CFC.
No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council. Let's say the CFC disappeared overnight, and another group rose to take its place? How would Trebor's proposal treat that other large entity any different?
All I got form this is, Goons are terrible and have control of the voting process and I am going to complain about it because I secretly wish I had the support of a tight-knit community. |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
2849
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:You know why the response was what it was? It was because it was FW farmville level of openly gameable, and the fact that it's so openly designed with one specific goal in mind (nerf CFC) makes it even worse. It's seriously like going back to the ankh-era of navelgazing combined with CCP-quality game mechanics design of the past few years (titans own subcaps? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW was gameable as all hell? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW is now farmville? shucks, didn't see that one coming.)
What does the farmability of FW have to do with any of this? I specifically asked about the market price determination formula long before Inferno's release and many of us on the CSM warned them about the likelihood of this being abused. Surely it doesn't suprise you that CCP doesn't always take the CSM's advice. Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
764
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:12:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Let's say the CFC disappeared overnight, and another group rose to take its place? How would Trebor's proposal treat that other large entity any different? Here's what you're not getting, Hans: if the CFC vanished into a black hole overnight, so would all those 'concerned citizens' sockpuppet threads about voter representation. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Lord Zim
1322
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:You know why the response was what it was? It was because it was FW farmville level of openly gameable, and the fact that it's so openly designed with one specific goal in mind (nerf CFC) makes it even worse. It's seriously like going back to the ankh-era of navelgazing combined with CCP-quality game mechanics design of the past few years (titans own subcaps? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW was gameable as all hell? shucks, didn't see that one coming. FW is now farmville? shucks, didn't see that one coming.) What does the farmability of FW have to do with any of this? I specifically asked about the market price determination formula long before Inferno's release and many of us on the CSM warned them about the likelihood of this being abused. Surely it doesn't suprise you that CCP doesn't always take the CSM's advice. You're missing the point, read it again. |
serras bang
Lucien Coven
21
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:13:00 -
[87] - Quote
David Carel wrote:serras bang wrote:David Carel wrote:serras bang wrote:well heres another thought to represent the player base a little better how about only allowing one candidate from each alliance. Alt alliances, been there; done that. lol to bad i still win :P What?
alt alliances ect would also be taken into acount for this i aint that stupid to make a suggestion just to allow players to skip alliance at ellection time to another alliance to get in. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
551
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:13:00 -
[88] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
Trebor's proposal is to ensure that voting blocks achieve lower-than-proportional representation. It's not intended to ensure we have a fair amount of representation: it is an attempt to make sure we have an unfairly low amount. What percentage of the player base does the CFC represent, and how does this proposal ensure that they receive less that that percentage of coverage on the CSM?
Wrong question. The better question is, what percentage of the VOTING player base does CFC represent. I would say we are well under represented when we only elected a single person. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4539
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:15:00 -
[89] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: No, what I said was that Trebor's proposal biases the system against the single most powerful voting bloc achieving higher-than proportional representation on the council.
Trebor's proposal is to ensure that voting blocks achieve lower-than-proportional representation. It's not intended to ensure we have a fair amount of representation: it is an attempt to make sure we have an unfairly low amount. What percentage of the player base does the CFC represent, and how does this proposal ensure that they receive less that that percentage of coverage on the CSM?
Can you demonstrate how a bloc-level candidate only represents the interests of his coalition (say, The Mittani and the CFC) rather than the overarching interests of nullsec players? How did his membership in the CSM further the CFC's goals? please leave |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.09.08 16:15:00 -
[90] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:What does the farmability of FW have to do with any of this? I specifically asked about the market price determination formula long before Inferno's release and many of us on the CSM warned them about the likelihood of this being abused. Surely it doesn't suprise you that CCP doesn't always take the CSM's advice. That CCP doesn't listen to you is your failure. If you spent time working on being persuasive, working on ways to show CCP that an idea is flawed, and worked on ways to expand your influence, then they'd listen. That's what an effective CSM does. It doesn't whine that nobody listened to it and give up.
You couldn't demonstrate to CCP an obviously and hilariously flawed system was broken. How the hell are you going to persuade them of anything less obvious? |
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