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Sticky:[Winter] Disruption Cruisers

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)
Martin0 The Scope Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2012.09.16 07:53:00 - [271] - Quote Marcel Devereux wrote: Annoitte wrote: I'm Down wrote: No, i think disruptor is a prime choice... but even ewar isn't met. Arbitrator... disrupt gun ships offensive abilities range/tracking (a defensive mechanic) Blackbird... disrupts a ships locking abilities (a defensive mechanic) Celestis.... disrups a ships target range or lock time (a defensive mechanic) Belicose... increases a targets incoming damage (an offensive mechanic) notice a disparity there? It's probably already been said, but... It's Minmatar. Minmatar attack things, not hide from them. This type of E-War fits their combat philosophy perfectly. Offense is best defense, and all that. Expect it is not. Almost all their ships have excellent tanks and can speed tank. So their best defense is to have a defense, and all that. You said it yourself. Minmatar can speed tank and avoid getting hit, so for them is better an offensive bonus. They aren't amarr sitting still or caldari with huge sig radius or gallente with crappy range.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 287	Posted - 2012.09.16 09:34:00 - [272] - Quote Martin0 wrote: You said it yourself. Minmatar can speed tank and avoid getting hit, so for them is better an offensive bonus. They aren't amarr sitting still or caldari with huge sig radius or gallente with crappy range. What I read him as saying, and what I also believe is that they have, due to relaxed fittings, static tanks comparable to other three races plus the speed tank and offensive capability. Think about it, do you really think that Eve would have been Winmatar Online going on three years were they not generally better than everything else available .. in post nano-nerf Eve the skirmishing/hit'n'run tactics are at best a niche yet ships from the race supposedly designed for it makes up the vast majority of fielded hardware.
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 55	Posted - 2012.09.16 12:21:00 - [273] - Quote Obsidiana wrote: Garviel Tarrant wrote: Obsidiana wrote: I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal. You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..? So comparing the two as they stand is very silly. Just voicing a concern. Please not the unassuming tone. I have faith in CCP Fozzie. The Merlin turned out great and the new Kestrel seems balanced. That said, I think that just the damage bonus will change to RoF. A ship line from Kestrel to Caracal to Raven is being drawn (BCs and DDs likely to follow). I don't want the range of the Caracal to be over estimated or its lack of drones overlooked. I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy 200	Posted - 2012.09.16 20:30:00 - [274] - Quote I really like the way this is going. As long this doesn't lead to a massive powercreep ofcourse Obvisouly I hope the battlecruiser won't get the same treatment or the cruiser revamp will be wasted... Here is my thoughts and concerns : Overall... To enforce a certain selection of shield or armor tank I really, really suggest adding 200-400 hitpoints to whatever flavor you intend for each ship. Even EW cruisers seems to need more hitpoints to avoid exploding in a few battlecrusier volleys... Arbitrator... The Arbitrator is already a working ship only let down by less slots and EHP compared to the bigger brothers... The extra lowslot really makes sense to enforce armor + drone damage mod. The mining bonus is weird but doesn't matter. Make sure it's universal for T1 drone boats. Powergrid and CPU is fine - but a little bit short if the hi-slots are meant to be usefull... If hi-slots doesn't matter you can easily fit a XL ASB with only 1 T2 Co-CPU and a T1 CPU rig I would suggest to add 2 more launcher slots for a total of 3 and keep the limited fittings Blackbird... Nothing extraordinary here either. Business as usual... The extra lowslot will really help the ship survive a few extra seconds If ECM is changed the BlackBird wlil need way more hitpoints - People already give up tanking it for more ECM 150 sig radius seems a little big even though it has not been a huge issue so far The BlackBird without a damage bonus could easily need 4 guns/launchers and a little extra fitting to follow Celestis... I would allow it 3 launchers if people should want to. With a dampener bonus only what harm can it do? I'm a little sceptic to damps so I'd suggest an additional 25m3 drone bay Bellicose... Im in love and I like the way the balancing team are thinking to wolve the "target painter isn't a usefull EW" complaints. It looks rather nasty... If it shows a bit powerfull you can not only adjust bonus to damage (makes better sense with a target painter anyway) but you can also cut off 25m3 drones... Closing up... Obviously it is hard to figure out wether this is too little or too much. So far we know what frigates can do but the combat/attack cruisers and the battlecruisers are still unknown. I like what I see and read so far. I would ofcourse defiantely look into the XL ASB thing - Im loving it but it feels wrong for a cruiser?? Pinky
Obsidiana White-Noise 188	Posted - 2012.09.16 20:50:00 - [275] - Quote Garviel Tarrant wrote: Obsidiana wrote: Garviel Tarrant wrote: Obsidiana wrote: I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal. You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..? So comparing the two as they stand is very silly. Just voicing a concern. Please not the unassuming tone. I have faith in CCP Fozzie. The Merlin turned out great and the new Kestrel seems balanced. That said, I think that just the damage bonus will change to RoF. A ship line from Kestrel to Caracal to Raven is being drawn (BCs and DDs likely to follow). I don't want the range of the Caracal to be over estimated or its lack of drones overlooked. I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless. Sadly, most people complain about missiles doing full damage at range, then use something else that does more damage. I had to "quiet" (politely) someone who complained about my missiles doing good damage at 100k in a co-op mission. I reminded him that, one mission earlier, I had used guns on a Navy Domi. I know what both can do; I know how to use both (snipe the frigates, ppl). IMHO missiles are effectively the reverse of guns.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 190	Posted - 2012.09.16 21:49:00 - [276] - Quote These look good, the only worry for me is the celestis and thats to do with damps rather than the ship itself tbh. Bellicose especially looks like it will now do what it was supposed to do all along (point defence). not really surprised to see arbitrator and blackbird getting minimal changes as they were both rather good to start with. i do think the the split weapon system on the arby is a bit meh though, give it 3 launcher (the whitling away of amarr missile ships disappoints me) or 3 turret slots and we are good to go.
Grey Azorria Federation Industries 211	Posted - 2012.09.16 22:08:00 - [277] - Quote Doddy wrote: Not really surprised to see arbitrator and blackbird getting minimal changes as they were both rather good to start with. I do think the the split weapon system on the arby is a bit meh though, give it 3 launcher (the whitling away of amarr missile ships disappoints me) or 3 turret slots and we are good to go. This, a million times this. and while you're at it, get one of the art guys to look at the slot layout (the lopsidedness annoys me ) either that or give it 4 hardpoints . Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Joelleaveek Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2012.09.16 22:32:00 - [278] - Quote I think you need to either drop the mining bonuses or make them across the board for all drone bonused ships. I also think if you are going to commit to no T1 missile frigs for Gallente and Amarr you should do the same for the Cruisers by dropping the launcher hardpoints on the Celesis and Arbitrator and going for 3 turret hardpoints on each.
CyrusNZ Stimulus Rote Kapelle 0	Posted - 2012.09.16 22:40:00 - [279] - Quote Damn Fozzie loving some of these ideas. That Bellicose is pretty awesome, maby a little too much so. Smaller drone bay might help balance that. Also I feel the Arby would benifit more from a 5th midslot rather than another lowslot, would bring it more inline with the Curse as an EWAR platform, that extra midslot would help the Arby perform as a more mobile ranged ewar platform.
Alara IonStorm 3150	Posted - 2012.09.17 05:59:00 - [280] - Quote Garviel Tarrant wrote: I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless. I am hoping it is good with both HAM's and Heavy Missiles personally. I would rather it be the close range ship instead of a Blaster designed Moa like the Merlin. I would prefer they make Medium Rails a good fleet / gang choice on it instead.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy 201	Posted - 2012.09.17 09:22:00 - [281] - Quote The long range missiles "heavy" and "cruise" really would benefit from -25% range and +20% damage, just like beams and rails would benefit from getting alpha strike doubled without increasing the dps...
Alara IonStorm 3150	Posted - 2012.09.17 10:17:00 - [282] - Quote Pinky Denmark wrote: The long range missiles "heavy" and "cruise" really would benefit from -25% range and +20% damage, just like beams and rails would benefit from getting alpha strike doubled without increasing the dps... Tengu with 20% more Damage and fires to 100km Drake Fleet fits losing the 2 CCC's for Velocity Rigs and firing at longer ranges faster while still running their MWD's for about 7min get 20% more Dmg. My god the Drake would actually do more DPS then the 720mm 2 Gyro Arty Cane does with close range ammo to 4 times the distance and with almost twice the tank... and the Cane has 2 DPS bonuses
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 55	Posted - 2012.09.17 10:40:00 - [283] - Quote Heavy missiles need to lose some range but mostly they need to be worse against frigs.
Galphii Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE 63	Posted - 2012.09.17 10:54:00 - [284] - Quote Yeah heavies need less range and less accuracy.
Bouh Revetoile Barricade. 61	Posted - 2012.09.17 12:01:00 - [285] - Quote Pinky Denmark wrote: The long range missiles "heavy" and "cruise" really would benefit from -25% range and +20% damage, just like beams and rails would benefit from getting alpha strike doubled without increasing the dps... I personnaly would have thought that HML would deserve -5% dps or something alike ; range+explosion velocity nerf may be a good "alike".
Rayner Vanguard EVE University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2012.09.17 12:04:00 - [286] - Quote Quote: Arbitrator: Cruiser skill bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 5 L (+1), 2 turrets, 1 launcher Fittings: 575 PWG, 325 CPU (+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(+84) / 1500(+132) / 1600(+232) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+313) / 490s(+108.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+41) / 0.56(-0.05) / 11200000 / 5.9s (-0.5) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 150 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 285(+3) / 7(+1) Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+3) Signature radius: 130 Cargo capacity: 345 Looks like a bit stronger version than Vexor Quote: Blackbird: Cruiser skill bonuses: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength 10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range and falloff Slot layout: 4 H, 6 M, 3 L (+1), 3 turrets, 3 launchers Fittings: 525 PWG, 425 CPU (+25) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1200(+145) / 1400(+267) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 190(+9) / 0.48(+0.025) / 13190000 / 5.9s (+0.3) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+10) / 230 / 8 Sensor strength: 20 Gravimetric Signature radius: 150 Cargo capacity: 305 Additional 1 med drone or 2 small drones? Even more powerful than Celestis Quote: Celestis: Cruiser skill bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener optimal range Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+2), 3 turrets, 2 launchers Fittings: 575 PWG, 375 CPU (+50) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1300(+11) / 1700(+411) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1300(+175) / 463s(+63s) / 2.8 (-0.01) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+29) / 0.505(-0.06) / 12070000 / 5.7s (+0.7) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+10) / 290(+2) / 8(+2) Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric Signature radius: 135 Cargo capacity: 320 As long as damp still like this, I guess not much changes Please buff the damp Quote: Bellicose: Cruiser skill bonuses: 7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness 5% bonus to Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 launchers Fittings: 575 PWG, 360 CPU (+110) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+150) / 1200(-11) / 1500(+289) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+262.5) / 427.5s(+92.5s) / 2.8 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240(+31) / 0.51 / 11550000 / 5.5s Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42.5km / 300(+7) / 7 Sensor strength: 14 Ladar (+3) Signature radius: 120 (+10) Cargo capacity: 315 Smart move Instead of fixing the tp, ccp buff the tp ship to a solo capable Now, Arbitrator and Bellicose on the grey area (e-war or attacking ship? ), especially Bellicose. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 55	Posted - 2012.09.17 12:52:00 - [287] - Quote [quote=Rayner Vanguard Now, Arbitrator and Bellicose on the grey area (e-war or attacking ship? ), especially Bellicose. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing [/quote] Thats what they are supposed to be. ewar combat ships.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy 200	Posted - 2012.09.17 13:22:00 - [288] - Quote Artillery have a super low dps and if they didn't have a huge alpha potential deserved a dps increase... Also Drake and Tengu definately need an adjustment so rejecting a suggestion with those examples are bad. But you are right the heavy missiles with the second lowest medium sized dps isn't the worst missile system. The range however could easily handle a cut down in range and we will hopefully be able to use HAMs on a Caracal in the near future without becoming too limited. The cruise missile range could easily be cut in half and they really need some love in the dps compartment... Pinky
Denuo Secus 62	Posted - 2012.09.17 13:36:00 - [289] - Quote Since the Arbitrator is part of this change: do you plan to review Amarr scout drones? At the moment there is no reason to use them. Minmatar drones are faster and do more damage. And if I want damage against shield tanked ships I'd use Gallente drones.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 84	Posted - 2012.09.17 14:22:00 - [290] - Quote Denuo Secus wrote: Since the Arbitrator is part of this change: do you plan to review Amarr scout drones? At the moment there is no reason to use them. Minmatar drones are faster and do more damage. And if I want damage against shield tanked ships I'd use Gallente drones. A drone adjustment here would be nice, there is quite a speed buff going on here for cruisers, i think that is good but has any thought been put towards medium drone speeds, will any adjustements be required. How fast does that bellicose go must be around 2km/s hammerheads go around 2.1 I think.
Alara IonStorm 3150	Posted - 2012.09.17 15:47:00 - [291] - Quote Alticus C Bear wrote: [quote=Denuo Secus]Since the Arbitrator is part of this change: do you plan to review Amarr scout drones? At the moment there is no reason to use them. Minmatar drones are faster and do more damage. And if I want damage against shield tanked ships I'd use Gallente drones. I think they should use what already works and buff by opposite Damage Types. Amarr Drones copy the Minmatar Drone Stats but do the opposite Dmg Type. EM for Shields EX for Armor. Gallente and Minmatar Drones do the same, Therm Resists is lower on Shields, Kin Resists is lower on Armor. That way there is no "best" just best for the situation, High Speed / Low Damage Armor or Shield Vs Low Speed / High Damage Armor or Shield.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos 492	Posted - 2012.09.17 16:55:00 - [292] - Quote Here is my thinking on damps: The only problem with damps is that they don't go well with blaster hulls. In that sense they are nonsensical with the theoretical Gallente close range fleet fighting doctrine everybody is stuck on. (BTW, I don't understand CCP Fozzie's fascination with damps + drones - the other guy will simply shoot the drones when they get into range.) Otherwise they are very effective in fights involving mid ranges (25 to 120 km), and are a good fit with rails. The Gallente fleet "meta" is now rails - not blasters. Javelin + rails hits really well at close range, and rails can project damage out to long range with other ammo types. Rails have more dps than arties and the challenge for them is to be able to apply damage over time - which is helped when a lower lock-ranged arty/laser hull is damped out. Also, damps + speed + cap stability is a deadly combination to go up against. Celestis will be able to solo many ships slower than itself if fit up properly. There are several light missile fit "nano" hookbills out therethat omgwtfpwn other hulls. Damps could use more optimal to beat down on hulls fighting in the 100 km to 150 km range, so giving the Celestis damps optimal bonus is a good thing. Force those hulls to either burn out to warp in range, or force them to burn into regular tackle range. So, optimal+falloff out to 150 km is a good thing. Damps also have the nice feature of scan resolution dampening which gives smaller ships the ability to manuever against bigger hulls as well as significantly reduce the effectiveness of enemy ships from switching targets (logi, BS switching targets to smaller hulls).
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy 200	Posted - 2012.09.17 17:53:00 - [293] - Quote Well - Hopefully CCP will try to make long range weaponry viable for more than tier 3 battlecruisers and then a dampening bonus won't be bad... This does however also require more alpha for long range guns and perhaps less dps penalty for longer ranged ammo. As well as a look into certain game mechanics :-)

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 1407	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:01:00 - [294] - Quote Thanks to everyone why has been providing constructive feedback here, I really appreciate it. Have a few tweaks to announce, they're all updated in the OP as well. - Removed 10m3 dronebay and 10mbit bandwidth from the Bellicose, dropping it back to the 40m3 it has on TQ now. We may re-evaluate again in the future. - Added a launcher hardpoint to the Arbitrator and Celestis Game Designer \| Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

Harvey James Prospero's Sight 14	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:31:00 - [295] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Thanks to everyone why has been providing constructive feedback here, I really appreciate it. Have a few tweaks to announce, they're all updated in the OP as well. - Removed 10m3 dronebay and 10mbit bandwidth from the Bellicose, dropping it back to the 40m3 it has on TQ now. We may re-evaluate again in the future. - Added a launcher hardpoint to the Arbitrator and Celestis cool but what about the having more structure than its main tank thing?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 1410	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:46:00 - [296] - Quote Harvey James wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Thanks to everyone why has been providing constructive feedback here, I really appreciate it. Have a few tweaks to announce, they're all updated in the OP as well. - Removed 10m3 dronebay and 10mbit bandwidth from the Bellicose, dropping it back to the 40m3 it has on TQ now. We may re-evaluate again in the future. - Added a launcher hardpoint to the Arbitrator and Celestis cool but what about the having more structure than its main tank thing? Adding structure is a way to add some more buffer to a ship without making it too much easier to remote rep them. It was a conscious choice in this case. Game Designer \| Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

Warde Guildencrantz TunDraGon 35	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:49:00 - [297] - Quote when can we expect the combat/attack cruisers
MIrple BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team 110	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:49:00 - [298] - Quote Just one question. Will all the new t1 cruiser bonuses be applied to the T2 ships as well. Like with what ever changes happen to the Thorax will they also be applied to the Demois. Or will the bonuses be different?

CCP Fozzie C C P C C P Alliance 1414	Posted - 2012.09.17 18:56:00 - [299] - Quote MIrple wrote: Just one question. Will all the new t1 cruiser bonuses be applied to the T2 ships as well. Like with what ever changes happen to the Thorax will they also be applied to the Demois. Or will the bonuses be different? They will not be automatically applied to the T2 ships. We will carry over bonuses as appropriate on a case by case basis. Game Designer \| Team Game of Drones https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie

Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2165	Posted - 2012.09.17 19:00:00 - [300] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: - Added a launcher hardpoint to the Arbitrator and Celestis Thanks, I think. You may want to consider bumping the CPU on the Arbitrator if you expect us to make use of that. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

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