- Whats the reasoning behind giving the celestis the higest sensor strengt of the 4 ships? At 20, its even better than caldari battlecruisers.

- Whats the reasoning behind giving the celestis the higest sensor strengt of the 4 ships? At 20, its even better than caldari battlecruisers.

Looks good and in line with the previosuly stated design goals. Some questions though:
- Why does the Arby retain its mining bonus to drones?

- Whats the reasoning behind giving the celestis the higest sensor strengt of the 4 ships? At 20, its even better than caldari battlecruisers.

- The Blackbird and Celestis are designed for ranged EW-support, so whats the reasoning behind the increased dronebay on the Celestis?

I still have to ask, isn't there any other bonus that suit the disruption role better than the Launcher ROF for Bell?

As stated, Bell and Arbitrator are being tailored for smaller gangs in which their dps contribution is important. Thats why you see 1 dps and 1 EW bonus, while Blackbird and Celestis have 2 EW bonuses and no dps bonus

Yes but I did pointed out in a post that the Arbitrator's "DPS", or 2nd, bonus also benefit OTHER drones like the EWAR drones. Bell's 2nd bonus benefit only specifically a weapon system.

Also, the arbitrator looks awesome, but there was talk of adding at least a taste of missile based ships in the tech 1 amarr lineup. I was waiting for it with frigates, but it never came. Adding one or two missile hardpoints to the arbitrator without increasing fitting would be a welcome stepping stone for the curse, damnation, and sacrilege. Also, as it stands, it seems the bellicose can clearly out dps the arbitrator without a huge loss of versatility.

We didn't see any reason to remove it.

Well, after the proposed changes to the Osprey and Schyte, it will be the only T1 cruiser left with a mining bonus. I just thought you guys had decided to use ORE ships as the bonused mining ships all the way. But its not a big deal obvioulsy.

Also, drones on the blackbird? not a fan. The blackbird is pretty powerful already due to the nature of ECM. Unless there is some nerfbat coming to ECM I think the blackbird is a little much. Specifically the targeting range. Thats absurd. I was expecting a targeting nerf on the blackbird, actually, not a buff.

Current plan is for the drone ships to keep their mining drone bonuses, as they're really a different thing entirely compared to the actual mining cruisers.

You really need to either adjust damps to have a bit more inherent usefulness or significantly increase that bonus (if you want to avoid the old situation of GÇ£damps on everythingGÇ¥).

I haven't done the all the maths for where it needs to be but really, what you should be aiming at is that with a reasonable fit and without any special bonuses (command ships etc.), and after stacking penalties, a Celestis that concentrates all of its disruption on a single ships should do pretty much the same thing as the equivalent Blackbird would do the the same shipGǪ which would pretty much entail damping any normal ship down to, oh, 2km lock range or so.

GǪso keep bumping those bonuses up, because you're not there yet.

Current plan is for the drone ships to keep their mining drone bonuses, as they're really a different thing entirely compared to the actual mining cruisers.

Fozzie - during your interview for kil2's podcast, you mentioned that you guys use modified versions of pyfa when tweaking and testing these new ships. Would it be possible to make those modified versions available when you post threads like this so we can play with the proposed new changes in a fitting program rather than just looking at text stats or fiddling with homebrew fitting tools? It'd make it a lot easier to form a reasonable opinion of their strengths and weaknesses...

Fozzie - during your interview for kil2's podcast, you mentioned that you guys use modified versions of pyfa when tweaking and testing these new ships. Would it be possible to make those modified versions available when you post threads like this so we can play with the proposed new changes in a fitting program rather than just looking at text stats or fiddling with homebrew fitting tools? It'd make it a lot easier to form a reasonable opinion of their strengths and weaknesses...

wat? have you lost it? maybe i don't understand , are you gving a non ore ship a random never to be used drone bonus to mining?

I'd rather have a Blackbird that concentrates all its jammers on one ship be closer in power to the Celestis than the other way around, however yeah there is more that needs to be done with damps.

What am I supposed to do with that extra low slot on the Celestis? I'd imagine some damping equivalent to Signal Distortion Amplifier would make the Celestis shine a bit better, but as is there's not very many things that buff damp strength :/

Celestis:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness
10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener optimal range
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+2), 3 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 375 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1300(+11) / 1700(+411)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1300(+175) / 463s(+63s) / 2.8 (-0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+29) / 0.505(-0.06) / 12070000 / 5.7s (+0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+10) / 290(+2) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 320

Not sure how I feel about the bellicose having a full drone bay. Two ewar ships, okay, but three reeks of too much homogenization. Bring the bellicose down, at least one medium drone. The balance team also added tons of drones to frigate hulls, it feels like gallente's specialization is being entirely eclipsed. The vexor, with only 75 bw (which most people only use a flight of mediums anyway) loses its advantage in the cruiser realm. A similar thing is true with the thorax.

Arbitrator:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 5 L (+1), 2 turrets, 1 launcher
Fittings: 575 PWG, 325 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(+84) / 1500(+132) / 1600(+232)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+313) / 490s(+108.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+41) / 0.56(-0.05) / 11200000 / 5.9s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 150
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 285(+3) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+3)
Signature radius: 130
Cargo capacity: 345

Blackbird:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range and falloff
Slot layout: 4 H, 6 M, 3 L (+1), 3 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 525 PWG, 425 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1200(+145) / 1400(+267)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 190(+9) / 0.48(+0.025) / 13190000 / 5.9s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+10) / 230 / 8
Sensor strength: 20 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 150
Cargo capacity: 305

Celestis:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness
10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener optimal range
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+2), 3 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 375 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1300(+11) / 1700(+411)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1300(+175) / 463s(+63s) / 2.8 (-0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+29) / 0.505(-0.06) / 12070000 / 5.7s (+0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+10) / 290(+2) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 320

Bellicose:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness
5% bonus to Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 360 CPU (+110)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+150) / 1200(-11) / 1500(+289)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+262.5) / 427.5s(+92.5s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240(+31) / 0.51 / 11550000 / 5.5s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42.5km / 300(+7) / 7
Sensor strength: 14 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 120 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 315

Not sure how I feel about the bellicose having a full drone bay. Two ewar ships, okay, but three reeks of too much homogenization. Bring the bellicose down, at least one medium drone. The balance team also added tons of drones to frigate hulls, it feels like gallente's specialization is being entirely eclipsed. The vexor, with only 75 bw (which most people only use a flight of mediums anyway) loses its advantage in the cruiser realm. A similar thing is true with the thorax.

What to fit in the Arbitrator's high slots has always mystified me. What are you proposing is a "good" fit for the Arbitrator's high slots with 2 utility highs? Also, the extra low might need some more grid. The extra sensor strength is much appreciated.


-Liang

I personally want Medium Neuttralyzers / NOS to drop to 100ish Grid so they will be more fittable to Cruisers and have the Arbitrators base Grid brought to 800 and base Capacitor to around 1500.

That and finally add a third bonus to Disruption Cruisers and Frigates, each get 1 EWAR Bonus, 1 DMG Bonus and 1 secondary EWAR Bonus governed by the Electronic Warfare Skill.

The Disruption Frigates all getting their Range Bonus so they can be highly mobile and hard to catch and Cruisers with their heavier tank getting a secondary bonus that makes them better in closer ranges in the fray. IE 7.5% Warp Disruption Range Celestis, 5% Capacitor Drain Bonus Arbitrator, 7.5 or 10% Web Range Bonus Bellicose and for the Blackbird besides range umm... Jammer Cap use or something.

Even tough Im up for buffing T1 Cruisers... Adding such a bonus would trample on Combat Recon's roles

Why do you think that?

Rapier can fire webs out to 60km, Bellicose to 20km
Curse has 4X the Neut Bonus and 200% more Range
Aruzu has 2x the Interdiction Range
Falcon has twice the Jammer Strength.

What is more the T2 versions have T2 Tanks, More Slots and half of them are invisible.

Saying it tramples on anything is like saying the Cyclone tramples on the Sleipnir because they bonus have Projectile Dmg and Shield Boosting or the Caracal on the Cerb because they both do Missile Damage and Range. The T1 versions being worse versions of T2 ships is not a bad thing.

why does the bellicose have more structure than shields?
Also cruisers need more speed and EHP across the board if you want to see more increased use
and the blackbird has same shields as structure why?
And arbitrator has more structure than armour

Blackbird:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
10% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range and falloff
Slot layout: 4 H, 6 M, 3 L (+1), 3 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 525 PWG, 425 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1200(+145) / 1400(+267)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 190(+9) / 0.48(+0.025) / 13190000 / 5.9s (+0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(+10) / 10(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 85km(+10) / 230 / 8
Sensor strength: 20 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 150
Cargo capacity: 305

Celestis:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness
10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener optimal range
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+2), 3 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 375 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1300(+11) / 1700(+411)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1300(+175) / 463s(+63s) / 2.8 (-0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+29) / 0.505(-0.06) / 12070000 / 5.7s (+0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+10) / 290(+2) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 320

Bellicose:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness
5% bonus to Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 360 CPU (+110)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+150) / 1200(-11) / 1500(+289)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+262.5) / 427.5s(+92.5s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240(+31) / 0.51 / 11550000 / 5.5s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42.5km / 300(+7) / 7
Sensor strength: 14 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 120 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 315

What to fit in the Arbitrator's high slots has always mystified me. What are you proposing is a "good" fit for the Arbitrator's high slots with 2 utility highs?

Obviously a Small Smartbomb and an Auto-Targeter. DUH! F-ing noob!

Erm... Please reassure us again that you are going to beat ECM with crowbar. Otherwise this might be a bit overpowered. Thought you guys figured out that range bonus AND strength were a bad combo on ECM cruisers when you nerfed the Falcon & Rook.

I was really hoping for an extra turret and some more grid. The extra low slot is pretty good too, but the grid is kinda mandatory no matter what.

-Liang

So now the arbitrator is going to have a larger TD bonus than the curse?

The biggest issue I see is that blackbirds (and family) are already the trump card in unequal small scale engagements. If my enemy has five cruisers and my team has two or three, the one with the most jamming survives. The falcon and rook are really the ships that force me to break my engagement as soon as they enter the field (small gangs, remember). Every other EWAR platform is a pain, but not a gamechanger. The last thing we need is another ECM platform to screw over small gang fights. I'm all for buffing the cruiser line up, but it seems if the blackbird is going to get many of its basic stats increased, ECM needs nerfbat so small gangs can still exist. This is just my experience, but imo, ECM need attention before a more powerful blackbird is released.

I'd rather have a Blackbird that concentrates all its jammers on one ship be closer in power to the Celestis than the other way around, however yeah there is more that needs to be done with damps.

So now the arbitrator is going to have a larger TD bonus than the curse?

Word on the street is that the Cane and (Drake or HML) will be seeing some downward adjustments. I wouldn't count these cruisers out just yet.

-Liang

something tells me the cane will loose those two utility high slots...

and heavy missiles will get thier range reduced...

something tells me the cane will loose those two utility high slots...

and heavy missiles will get thier range reduced...

and for the myrm i hope it looses the repping bonus gets a sentry drone damage bonus and looses a high slot for a low slot or two... plus increased drone bay and up the activation amount to 4 sentries so thats 100 mb

The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.

The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.

The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.

Indeed but T2 is supposed to be better at its chosen specialization so it makes no sense to keep allowing the blackbird to be BETTER than T2 ecm ships at ecm range

It has made a lot of sense for years and it still does. The only way to survive in a BB is range. It doesnt have the resilience, agility, speed or cloaking ability to survive without range, because it will ALWAYS be primaried.

It has made a lot of sense for years and it still does. The only way to survive in a BB is range. It doesnt have the resilience, agility, speed or cloaking ability to survive without range, because it will ALWAYS be primaried.

You should look into ECCM implants. Seriously. Low grade if you fly frigates frequently or high grade for cruiser and above. They're cheap and very effective.

-Liang

Also the tier 3 bc's are faster than most of these cruisers i mean wtf!!!!! there cruisers there meant to be mobile this is why people use bc's not cruisers cruisers are massively underpowered in many ways its speed/mobility is meant to be the redeeming feature over bc's better tank better dps better....
This is just another nail in the coffin of cruisers i hope you do better with the attack cruisers you need too

This is my point exactly. There *are* ways around it, but I shouldn't have to buy a set of implants to counter the basic functionality of another ship.

Yes but its T1 it should be more killable and i have already said it needs a buff to its mobility/tank to compensate but bottom line is T1 logi don't have better range than the T2 despite its ridiculous 1000% bonus its meant to be worse it shouldnt have a better bonus than rook or falcon i mean they both have same issue then if you're locked you cant cloak and you have crap tank and mobility but much higher ecm to compensate but its 200mil plus ship so it should a bb is cheap as hell why should it be immune to being killed by its excessive range bonus?

Tier 3 BCs are basically cruisers with Battleship guns. I'd feel pretty comfortable taking on a Tier 3 BC with a cruiser.

-Liang

Ed: Calling them cruisers is a bit of a stretch. I don't think they have the tank of a cruiser. Maybe a bit more like a 70M ISK AF with a massive sig radius?

Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang

Why shouldn't you have to take precautions to defend yourself against CC?

-Liang

so if BC's are allowed to be faster than a cruiser than what is the point of a cruiser?
might as-well remove them from the game as useless pieces of junk :P

a full implant set for tech 1 cruiser level combat? I think that's a stretch. Maybe (and I mean maybe) for fighting rooks and falcons. Implant sets are usually the domain of turbo pirates and cap pilots. I am neither, I don't think you should have to be to fight a tech 1 cruiser.

There are an enormous number of reasons why someone would fly cruisers instead of Tier 3 BCs. Here is a small and not complete list:
- Tier 3 BCs cost 14x as much, just for the hull. Their guns are 2-4x as expensive, and there are more of them.
- Tier 3 BCs have a frigate tank, which is to say it is made of paper.
- Cruisers have 320% better base tracking.
- Cruisers are just as fast when fit to kite.

Your post is a bad post and you should feel bad.

-Liang

Tier 3's dont have a frigate tank they about 2k to its main tank like cruisers do but seriously i skipped the whole cruiser segment besides bb in favour of the good old drake so what does this tell you?

Then fit an ECCM and stop whining?

-Liang

You know as well as I do that that's not always an option, especially in amarr ships with few mids.

All I'm asking for is ECM such that its not either absolute win or total fail. Seems that there should be some middle ground. Dampeners, TP, and even neuts all have some maneuvering room. That's not the case with ECM.

You know as well as I do that that's not always an option, especially in amarr ships with few mids.

All I'm asking for is ECM such that its not either absolute win or total fail. Seems that there should be some middle ground. Dampeners, TP, and even neuts all have some maneuvering room. That's not the case with ECM.

That the Drake is overpowered.

-Liang

How imaginative but we already knew about the drake but you could take this example to all the races the answer would always be that bc's are better in every way that counts.

How imaginative but we already knew about the drake but you could take this example to all the races the answer would always be that bc's are better in every way that counts.

Celestis:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness
10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener optimal range
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+2), 3 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 575 PWG, 375 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1300(+11) / 1700(+411)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1300(+175) / 463s(+63s) / 2.8 (-0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+29) / 0.505(-0.06) / 12070000 / 5.7s (+0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75km(+10) / 290(+2) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 320

So with the inevitable offgrid mindlinked link T3, a rigged Arbitrator will have TDs that each have -92.25% to optimal or tracking? Wow.

(hope those numbers are right )

4 dev replies and 0 answers later, still waiting to hear how the pure DPS Belicose is somehow a disruptor cruiser that out dps's both Amarr Cruisers maxed out on dps even if the Maller gets a 5% damage bonus

Exactly what about painters disrupts anything?

4 dev replies and 0 answers later, still waiting to hear how the pure DPS Belicose is somehow a disruptor cruiser that out dps's both Amarr Cruisers maxed out on dps even if the Maller gets a 5% damage bonus

Exactly what about painters disrupts anything?

Bellicose:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness
5% bonus to Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
Slot layout: 4 H (-1), 5 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 launchers
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10)/ 50(+10)

4 dev replies and 0 answers later, still waiting to hear how the pure DPS Belicose is somehow a disruptor cruiser that out dps's both Amarr Cruisers maxed out on dps even if the Maller gets a 5% damage bonus

Exactly what about painters disrupts anything?

i get -83.665%

Im not sure where you're getting your numbers . . . are you adding the T3 bonus instead of multiplying it?

Both Amarr cruisers? Last I checked there were like 4. And the new DPS Belli looks like it will do about 350-ish dps (~200 HAM / 150 drones). Which is about the same (or possibly even less) than the new Arbi. As for the Maller, I was under the impression that it too will be changed. Upgraded rather significantly from what was implied in the DevBlog. Or perhaps you know something we don't? Or we could all just jump on the rage wagon too!

Your opponent's ship blowing up tends to disrupt them slightly. Using Painters on them can help facilitate their ship blowing up.

Some of them could certainly use some nudging, but saying that as a class they need much more speed and mobility is just wrong. I don't even have a problem with slow brawl fit cruisers being kited by Tier 3s. They're fast and fragile, just they're meant to be - it's a good game mechanic.

-Liang

CCP Fozzie did mention in a podcast interview that cruisers are getting a 20-35% base speed buff.

Unless the Caracal is getting a full flight of light drones (or more), the Bellicose will out damage and better tank the Caracal. ... I know we haven't see the Caracal yet, but the TP bonus, drones, and sub-high slots will be hard to match.

check your facts, it will do 552 dps maxed out before overload or implants are even considered.

Exactly what about painters disrupts anything?

Show your work.

352 HAMs
190 Drones

---

542... excuse me, i was 10 off.

You can eft an osprey navy to see the missile damage, and the 4th low would go to a drone damage mod. Still leaves room for an MWD and a LSE in the mids, and the usual other items.

and oh yeah, unlike most other ships, it's not tied to damage types....

352 HAMs
190 Drones

---

542... excuse me, i was 10 off.

You can eft an osprey navy to see the missile damage, and the 4th low would go to a drone damage mod. Still leaves room for an MWD and a LSE in the mids, and the usual other items.

and oh yeah, unlike most other ships, it's not tied to damage types....

check your facts, it will do 552 dps maxed out before overload or implants are even considered. Both amarr cruisers was supposed to say both amarr dps cruisers.

your second comment is just batshit ********.

Can we please discuss real fits? That is over on both CPU and grid, and even if it fit would be a **** fit.

-Liang

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone damage Amplifier I

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

with 22 cpu left for the last mid slot.... easily fit another painter or several other options.

If you really want to toss our 40 dps, you can lose the drone damage amp and still be over 500 dps, and get your precious DCU.

Learn how to fit.


Hammerhead II x1

Jesus can you learn how to fit a ******* ship? Do you even PVP?

-Liang

Jesus can you learn how to fit a ******* ship? Do you even PVP?

-Liang

It is this.

[empty med slot]

That makes it art.

hey dip ****, did you see the part where i left it open intentionally and told you teh remaining CPU so that you could fit in a variety of options? Or are you one of those ******* retards who needs me to spell this out 100% for you?

I'm sorry, lets see a real fit pro? I know that this fit gets around 20-30,000 ehp for small fleet combat and who honestly gives a **** about sig ratio on a throw away dps ship. You will only find 3 other cruiser under current game mechanics that can even compete dps wise to this "disruption" cruiser.

I'm sorry, lets see a real fit pro? I know that this fit gets around 20-30,000 ehp for small fleet combat and who honestly gives a **** about sig ratio on a throw away dps ship. You will only find 3 other cruiser under current game mechanics that can even compete dps wise to this "disruption" cruiser.

The whole beauty of drone boats is that they can do a little bit of everything. There are mining drones, so why shouldn't drone boats get bonuses to use them? ORE barges tend to pack combat drones for self-defense.

If CCP really wanted to go nuts, they'd throw in a generous bonus to mining drone velocity per level. For those with Gallente or Amarr Cruiser 5 there might even be a use for Harvesters, at long last.

I know that this fit gets around 20-30,000 ehp for small fleet combat...

Because including leadership/link bonuses in your base stats is always a good idea....? Let's be honest, your fit has 19K ehp (with Liang's DCU). It is made of glass. And overlooking the lack of a point, it does have some niche uses. But for general use it is horribly terribad.

B/C when it explicitly states "small gang combat" you naturally move away from bonuses huh?


I really wish you guys would quit trying to judge ships by their unbonused, un buffed neutered to hell fits and realize that your terribad style of gameplay is not how this game get's balanced properly.

B/C when it explicitly states "small gang combat" you naturally move away from bonuses huh?


I really wish you guys would quit trying to judge ships by their unbonused, un buffed neutered to hell fits and realize that your terribad style of gameplay is not how this game get's balanced properly.

B/C when it explicitly states "small gang combat" you naturally move away from bonuses huh?


I really wish you guys would quit trying to judge ships by their unbonused, un buffed neutered to hell fits and realize that your terribad style of gameplay is not how this game get's balanced properly.

Please what is a small gang then? Edit: Google said a small gang is <= 10 pilots.

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone damage Amplifier I

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
EM Ward Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
[empty med slot]

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Assault Missile

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

with 22 cpu left for the last mid slot.... easily fit another painter or several other options.

If you really want to toss out 40 dps, you can lose the drone damage amp and still be over 500 dps, and get your precious DCU.

Learn how to fit.

Another thing to consider is buffing the rigs for sensor dampening strength.

The Tech 1 rsd rig is a mere 5% increase. The tech 2 is a 7.5% increase.

The rigs were nerfed when damps were nerfed.

I'd rather have a Blackbird that concentrates all its jammers on one ship be closer in power to the Celestis than the other way around,

Now, on a sidenote, I think the Celestis is still going to be a little weak. Gallente being the drone race and all, and Celestis being basically the "go to" e-war cruiser for Gellente in the next expansion, I was hoping to see a drone bonus somewhere in there. Hopefully it will happen on another cruiser besides the Vexor, which will pretty much remain similar from what I've read, if only to give Gallente some more identity.

I'd rather have a Blackbird that concentrates all its jammers on one ship be closer in power to the Celestis than the other way around, however yeah there is more that needs to be done with damps.

Arbitrator:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 5 L (+1), 2 turrets, 1 launcher
Fittings: 575 PWG, 325 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(+84) / 1500(+132) / 1600(+232)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+313) / 490s(+108.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+41) / 0.56(-0.05) / 11200000 / 5.9s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 150
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 285(+3) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+3)
Signature radius: 130
Cargo capacity: 345

4 dev replies and 0 answers later, still waiting to hear how the pure DPS Belicose is somehow a disruptor cruiser that out dps's both Amarr Cruisers maxed out on dps even if the Maller gets a 5% damage bonus

Exactly what about painters disrupts anything?

Wow, with these new 7.5% bonuses we're getting back to pretty much old Arazu dampening you by -75% by each RSD. Apply 3 and nobody can lock anything even at 10 km. Heck, even 2 will do it for most cases.

Do you, Fozzie, really believe it's good for the game to have an option of rendering any given ship (bar supercaps, for sure - they are what real man fly and thus can not be touched) totally useless by such overwhelming EW modules?

Isn't this precisely the reason why ECM causes so much hate? Being able to establish lock is god damn CRUCIAL for basically anything you might want to perform. If you have no intentions of introducing a hard limit to what ships can be damped to (say, they always retain 30% of their base lock range), then you're pretty much failing at not making the game even harder for soloers - the concern you named recently.

It looks like the new bellicose will be going around 2k/s without any mods. I also studied the HAM version, but I believe HML version will be more widely used as it has WAY better damage projection.

The question is can Valkyries or heavy missiles reliably hit a frig when it is painted by bonused painters?? If not, bellicose will die horribly to frigs if it doesn't field warriors.

The Bellicose is going to be a Frigate shredding machine.

so if BC's are allowed to be faster than a cruiser than what is the point of a cruiser?
might as-well remove them from the game as useless pieces of junk :P
And btw at the moment the tier 3 bc's have better tank then cruisers too

They also cost 10 times as much and are more skill intensive. What's your point?

Looks good at a glance, the only thing that caught my eye is the Belli getting 4 bonused launchers and a full flight of meds, isnt that a bit much? 1 turret short of being the same layout as our current 'gank' cruiser the thorax

They also cost 10 times as much and are more skill intensive. What's your point?

B/C when it explicitly states "small gang combat" you naturally move away from bonuses huh?


I really wish you guys would quit trying to judge ships by their unbonused, un buffed neutered to hell fits and realize that your terribad style of gameplay is not how this game get's balanced properly.

Looks good at a glance, the only thing that caught my eye is the Belli getting 4 bonused launchers and a full flight of meds, isnt that a bit much? 1 turret short of being the same layout as our current 'gank' cruiser the thorax

In exactly what way is a 542 dps Belicose with 0 disrupting effects a disruption cruiser?
It now does around 80 more dps than a 5% per leve damagel maller would do with 3 HS based on those proposed changes and about 31 more dps than the current 5 pulse 3 HS omen does. When does thinking ever come in to the picture at CCP

still waiting to hear how the belicose proposal makes sense.

4 dev replies and 0 answers later, still waiting to hear how the pure DPS Belicose is somehow a disruptor cruiser that out dps's both Amarr Cruisers maxed out on dps even if the Maller gets a 5% damage bonus

In exactly what way is a 542 dps Belicose with 0 disrupting effects a disruption cruiser?

Until you tell us what's up with the ECM mechanics, there's no way to comment on this ship.

Not sure how I feel about the bellicose having a full drone bay. Two ewar ships, okay, but three reeks of too much homogenization. Bring the bellicose down, at least one medium drone. The balance team also added tons of drones to frigate hulls, it feels like gallente's specialization is being entirely eclipsed. The vexor, with only 75 bw (which most people only use a flight of mediums anyway) loses its advantage in the cruiser realm. A similar thing is true with the thorax.

seriously what happened to more mobility isn't that supposed to be the point of cruisers over bc's?

seriously what happened to more mobility isn't that supposed to be the point of cruisers over bc's?

We increased the speeds on all the ewar cruisers as part of an overall speed increase for cruisers, including giving the Arbitrator a very significant 20% bump. But the ewar cruisers are intentionally one of the slower sets of T1 cruisers and we're not going to give the class so much speed that it becomes overpowered.

That being said, building strawman fits optimized for EFT numbers is the oldest trick in the book for "winning" theorycrafting arguments and you shouldn't count on me not knowing the difference between the paper dps of a 4 damage mod rage ham setup and the actual value of that ship in space.

If you're going to be messing with damps, you should probably look at the lock ranges of recon ships. They all have absurd range, making them mostly immune to range dampening.

...we'll see as we go forward...

It's quite possible that we may need to bump the Belli dronebay back to the 40m3 it has currently to balance it, we'll see as we go forward. As for the expansion of drones into more ships, it's a side effect of our desire to make drones a more mainstream weapon system instead of leaving Gallente pilots alone in the cold. The creation of the drone damage mod was another step in that direction and there's more we want to do. We balance ships based on their capabilities, not on making certain races specialized just for the sake of specialization.

Good morning everyone. Gonna go over some of the key questions and comments I'm seeing in the thread so far.



It's quite possible that we may need to bump the Belli dronebay back to the 40m3 it has currently to balance it, we'll see as we go forward. As for the expansion of drones into more ships, it's a side effect of our desire to make drones a more mainstream weapon system instead of leaving Gallente pilots alone in the cold. The creation of the drone damage mod was another step in that direction and there's more we want to do. We balance ships based on their capabilities, not on making certain races specialized just for the sake of specialization.

7.5% bonus per level? Did you realize that this is dramatically better than what the T2 ships have? So even if T2 cruisers are planned to be brought in line with this later on, we will have a period of at least several months, or maybe even a year, where cheap t1 cruisers will be better at the jobs their T2 versions are supposed to be specialized in? This is ridiculous and completely unacceptable.

First you change FW so that 2-day-old alts can earn 100+ million ISK/hour in T1 frigates worth 3 million, now this. Please realize that you just can't make some changes without changing something else... at the same time, not many months later.

Well, it's cool to see that drone ships no longer lose a slot because of drones... at least if they are not Gallente.

If we change the tracking disruptor bonus on the Arbitrator and Crucifier, we will change the bonus on the T2 versions at the same time.

Why no variation in cap/sec? Amarr are supposed to have good cap, minmatar are supposed to have bad cap.

Why no variation in cap/sec? Amarr are supposed to have good cap, minmatar are supposed to have bad cap.

If we change the tracking disruptor bonus on the Arbitrator and Crucifier, we will change the bonus on the T2 versions at the same time.

Do you think that 92% tracking disruptors and 78% RSDs are really a good idea? If not, you need to do something about warfare links. When even the Gallente info links are arguably overpowered, there's a real problem.

I think basically every frigate should fear the Bellicose, and any ship that can't hit out to 24 km should fear it too since it will just kite you to death with its speed and missiles. And if it does get caught, it can always release the ec-600's and gtfo. No risk pvp is here!

Warfare links, regardless of on grid or off grid, are overpowered as hell. Why do we have a ship providing +50% bonuses in a game where people train months for 2% more damage? I really hope we see links becoming nice to haves instead of must haves like they are becoming now.

I say this as someone with ~25M SP (and counting) invested in Leadership.

-Liang

You mention possible change of ECM mechanics, but could something be done to absurd dampening, too? They say move closer, but if your locking range is cut down to, say, 5-10 km or so you while your operating range is more like 30-40, moving closer is of no particular use. RSD mechanics is to be changed as well to prevent RSD from being abused while keeping them as a valid tool for fleet-warfare. Do you agree?

I assume you're talking about a 2km/s AML kite fit with a TP and dual webs or something? I'd feel pretty comfortable taking the ship on with any of the new T1 attack frigates.
-Liang

Warfare links, regardless of on grid or off grid, are overpowered as hell. Why do we have a ship providing +50% bonuses in a game where people train months for 2% more damage? I really hope we see links becoming nice to haves instead of must haves like they are becoming now.

I say this as someone with ~25M SP (and counting) invested in Leadership.

-Liang

Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. Please tell us how you'd do it.

I agree completely. I also think it's crazy that it's so cheap to get large link benefits, relative to, say, sticking deadspace hardeners, RF points or FN webs on your entire gang.

The idea of one ship being able to simultaniously boost 200 others for the same benefit as boosting just 1 is utterly flawed.

Change links to the way logistics and any remote buffing operate - so that they either provide huge boosts to one ship or just slightest to a blob. Hooray, we fixed gang-links once and for all.

No worries man. The basic problem is that Light Missiles basically don't hit anything going faster than 3.5km/s. The new T1 frigs are that fast, at the very least. So for the Bellicose to deal damage, it'd have to close with the frig and get webs, but that's about as likely as a cruiser webbing a Slicer. It can happen but it requires the Slicer pilot to **** up pretty hard.

The Drones (provided they fit 5 light ECM/5 light Warriors) would by far be the biggest threat. The Condor can just straight tank them and the others will just kill them.

-Liang

Ed: Remember, the Caracal is able to do this because its missiles go 50% faster than the Bellicose.

Yes, I once tried to use an AML Navy Osprey but found that the missiles weren't quick enough to actually hit an intelligently flown, fast frigate that wasn't just flying straight at me. They just ran out of flight time first.

But there's a difference between "take on" and "kill"...

Butthurt because kiting can be countered now?