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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 81 post(s) |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
34
   |
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:02:00 -
[151] - Quote
More variety/unpredictability for PVE is something I've wanted for a long time in EVE, right now this sounds like a nerf to drone users and those running sites that require a fleet.
Now since I know essentially bugger all about running plexs I'll focus on the drones...
Right now there are a couple of missions (L4s) that will target your drones, the first room of WC being one that springs to mind, and as it stands it happens a bit and is slightly annoying, especially if you forgot/weren't paying full attention, but overall it's not really a major issue. Now if what we're going to see is a similar level of rats occasionally switching to your drones in other missions, it'll be a nerf to drone users simply because the moment you have to spend more/any time switching out drones you're losing effective dps, but it shouldn't be TOO bad. If we see drones pulling aggro with any great frequency you can basicly right off every droneboat as a viable PVE ship, there really wont be much reason to use them in place of guns/missiles that don't have the same issue of extra micromanagement and dropping dps as you try to keep your drones alive. As for viewing it as "ammo cost" to replace drones, I'm guessing people are forgetting that losing t2 drones is not cheap at all, and if it happens often (lol heavies getting wiped as they trundle back) it'll far exceed equivalent ammo costs.
Sadly with the general drone-hate from CCP and the tendency to release things in a horrible state in general, I'm very glad I have equally perfect gun/missile skills on my only char that uses drones heavily, and I'll be comfortably switching to something that isn't getting beaten with a nerfbat whenever this goes live.
tl/dr: Why must it be that drones YET AGAIN get the muddy end of the stick?? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
Il Reverendo wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
I can't imagine how you'd do a Blood Raider 10/10 now.
It's easy, all ships just have to be able to tank the torp, deal dmg, rr and not be dependent on cap. ...oh wait....
Well played sir.
The Blood Raider 10/10 is a MONSTER (i tank it with a faciton/deadsapce fit loki, love those em resists) backed up by logi with other ships for DPS, how do I make that loki be able to to rep the logi with no cap, how do I tank a logi to withstand the torp AND rep with no tank after it gets neuted ect ect.
The High End DED plexes were created and balanced under the current "dumb AI" regime. CCP you HAVE to redesign them 1st before you introduce target switching of you make them either undoable or utterly unprofitable (which is the same as making them undaoble lol). |
Karl Planck
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:04:00 -
[153] - Quote
superb, the tears are already flowing from this change. Yes, this will drastically change DED sites. Yes this will be a huge nerf to afk botting highsec turds.
HAHAHAHHHAHAHAHA
Low-sec Best-sec |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:05:00 -
[154] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
This is one of the reasons we are trying to get this out on the test server now and feedback on it. What we actually hope happens, due to ships wanting to kill ships of their own size, is that newer players can come along in frigates and deal with the frigate NPCs.
Forcing us to basically bring a gang of logistics or spider tanking battleships just to do high level DEd plexes is a big nerf. The NPCs across eve might be the same, but the situations you find them in is not. While this might be a minor nusiance in a lvl 4, it becomes a game ending nightmare in the monster DED complexs that ALREADY damn near require at least dual boxing to complete. This is the problem with the "broad brush" approach (don't get me started on what another part of CCP is thinking of doing with Heavy Missiles lol), change one thing, screw 10 others, PLEASE consider this carefully. Or, take citadel torps out of DED plexes and just add more npc ships. Some of us REALLY don't want to have to avoid DEd plex escalations because of this. So you say, there are DED Plexes that are soloable, but only very tight and are very close to requiring at least 2 chars in it and are stating that these plexes won't be doable solo anymore if the new AI hits TQ? Well, according to the Dev-Blog, the NPCs will get a target switching AI. They will still have the same dps, speed, optimals, tank, ewar. So ... If doable solo before the change, i can imagine no reason why it wouldn't be doable solo after the patch. For one Pilot doing the site, nothing changes unless you rely heavily on drones.
You must not do high end DED plexes that through torps that do 160,000 points of damage to you every 30 seconds.....
Under the current scheme, you can send in an uber tank to soak up these ship killers, then bring in dps and/or logi support. If the torp chuker ships or structures start switching targets, the problem that plex poses rise exponentially.
I totally fine with the change everywhere else (missions, anoms, lower end deds ect), Don't mind seeing afk drone NPCing go away either, but it could break the 9/10s and 10/10s is ccp isn't careful. |
Dersen Lowery
Knavery Inc.
StructureDamage
97
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:06:00 -
[155] - Quote
Large drones are already of questionable value, because they're so slow and so easy to kill. This makes them even less useful. Not a problem for me, because I never deploy them, but just a heads-up that they'll be reduced to the nichest of niche roles, like buffing the DPS of Myrmidons in EFT.
Aethlyn asked why people would AFK missions. corestwo has answered the question indirectly. The AFK Domi mission-runners I know are nullsec PVP pilots who hate PVE and have having to do PVE, but need the ISK to do what they want to do. Like many nullsec pilots, they multibox, so they'll have an alt AFKing L4s while their main does something more engaging. One guy would start his Domi in a big L4 and leave the house. The point is, for them it's not about fun, it's about finding the least time- and attention-intensive way to make enough ISK that they can have their kind of fun.
I'd like to approach something Tippia said from the other side: If the rats have real ships with real modules, EWAR works against them in a way that is consistent with the way they work against player ships of the same type. Right now, except for absurdly reductive examples in the tutorials, the only thing missions teach you about EWAR is that you can feed your capacitor indefinitely by pointing a NOS at a nearby rat. With all the cool rebalancing to EWAR boats that'll be rolling out this winter, it would be nice to be able to have the option of learning how to use them in PVE, instead of thinking that sensor damps are useless because the rat cruiser shooting you from 20km away has a 300km targeting radius.
Make no mistake, I'm overall very happy with this change. It will make things more exciting for me. But there are ramifications to consider. |
Lord Xander
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:07:00 -
[156] - Quote
1 pve will NEVER be fun
2 you will kill jewing High sec and low and 0.0
3 you will never see me running a Maze ever
4 "CCP"
so in the end, F*&% jewen and more scaming, this is what you want form us, so so you will get it.
hope you like it. |
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:11:00 -
[157] - Quote
That one with aggroing drones is not good.
Let's say i have a ship which only has drones like carrier... or dominix on which all high slots are used for ulility..
If npc's kill all of my drones then scramble me i can't warp out and i can just sit there indefinitely can't warp out, can't do nothing.
I support this change but please program npc's to leave drones alone.
|
Nijle
Star Frontiers
THORN Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:12:00 -
[158] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only? To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.
Concerning 10/10 complexes (and fleet staging 9/10)
Naval Shipyards can not have capitals in it, for this site you need to bring a heavily tanked ship such as a Tech 3 or Broadsword to tank the Citadel torpedo. It is gated and can not have capitals in it.
The Maze also has this by the way.
Please please please make sure you guys test this to make sure that it does not switch targets (or some other fix, lower damage?). Those sites will NOT be able to be completed if the Citadel torp switches targets to a Logi or other ship that has moderate tank but is setup for dps. They will one or two shot everything that is not the "tank" (the torps do 150k dmg every 10 seconds!) with that torpedo! So anything sub mid 90s resists to the damage type and a moderate buffer will be popped.
Aside from this concern these changes sound great!! Thank you. |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:13:00 -
[159] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: [...] the only thing missions teach you about EWAR is that you can feed your capacitor indefinitely by pointing a NOS at a nearby rat. [...]
Tested 2 weeks ago in a curse. Does not work.
@ Jenn aSide:
Allright, I've never done the highend plexes before. But maybe the solution will be not to bring a Logi and T3s, but to bring spidering Battleships. I could see a bunch of Sins (reliying on drones lol) performing ... acceptable. Marauder Gangs. Or the fact that 9/10 and 10/10 are no longer designed for one or two guys multiboxing, but as a Fleet-PvE adventure much like Incursions. Share the wealth ;)
Or yeah, adjusting the Sites to new AI in terms of DPS might also be a good idea. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:14:00 -
[160] - Quote
Spc One wrote:That one with aggroing drones is not good.
Let's say i have a ship which only has drones like carrier... or dominix on which all high slots are used for ulility..
If npc's kill all of my drones then scramble me i can't warp out and i can just sit there indefinitely can't warp out, can't do nothing.
I support this change but please program npc's to leave drones alone.
Now, i don't agree with this part, a carrier can mount smart bombs and neuts, hell I've ECM-bursted my way out of level 5s in a carrier before just to see if I could do it.
The problem I have with switching aggro to drones is just the shear tediousness of having to do it over and over again. That's not fun, pve should at least be somewhat enjoyable.
We'll see how it pans out. |
Lord Okinaba
25
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:16:00 -
[161] - Quote
As if flying drone boats isn't a ball ache as it is. 
Now we're going to have to micro manage them even more and with still a very out dated and cumbersome control system.
*sigh* |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
Solar Assault Fleet
189
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:19:00 -
[162] - Quote
This will create an awesome flood of tears, wailing and pulling hair and beards (if present).
It will make it harder to just use the same old and well documented ways/fittings/tactics over and over again.
Think the awesome amount of dead ships (some very shiny) followed by huge amounts of tears when incursions was released, but at least 10x more ;)
No longer will npc rats just follow the script and let themself be slaughtered without actually forcing the player to assess the situation and react.
It will be harder to just grind the same series of missions/deds/plexes over and over again without even bothering.
Some will see this as an annoying way to make it harder to farm the isk they want/need for having fun (which most likely doesn't include PvE stuff).
But I'd say that this change is well overdue, and like it was with incursions, people will assess, analyze and adapt.
And those who can't or can't be arsed to, will leave or find another way to fund their habit.
But drones will be an issue, ctrl-r is nice, but sentries move quite slowly ... ;)
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:19:00 -
[163] - Quote
Syrias Bizniz wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote: [...] the only thing missions teach you about EWAR is that you can feed your capacitor indefinitely by pointing a NOS at a nearby rat. [...] Tested 2 weeks ago in a curse. Does not work. @ Jenn aSide: Allright, I've never done the highend plexes before. But maybe the solution will be not to bring a Logi and T3s, but to bring spidering Battleships. I could see a bunch of Sins (reliying on drones lol) performing ... acceptable. Marauder Gangs. Or the fact that 9/10 and 10/10 are no longer designed for one or two guys multiboxing, but as a Fleet-PvE adventure much like Incursions. Share the wealth ;) Or yeah, adjusting the Sites to new AI in terms of DPS might also be a good idea.
I highlighted the important part. That torp will ALPHA a battleship (even a bonused resist monster liek an Abaddon) spider reps or not, which is why no one bring battleships to TANK Fleet Staging Points, Mazes or other 9-10/10s. Hell, people who didn't know what they were doing have in the past lost carriers and dreads in some of these (namely fleet staging point) although you had to be really asleep at the wheel to do that.
No, the stations or rats that shoot citadel torps switching would totally break the 9-10s and 10/10s that have them, it's not a matter of "bring more people". |
Travis Wells
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
240
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Making pve more "engaging" makes pve more tedious than it already is, making the time sink to make isk to fund other adventures more difficult giving us less fun, or more work, grrrrreeeeaaaattttttt |
Warr Akini
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:19:00 -
[165] - Quote
CCP, heed my words:
If you're going to do this, at least add a "Launch Drones" hotkey. I know you don't currently have a system to designate which five (assuming five+) drones to launch, but let us deal with that while you give us a basic function. |
Mr Quinto
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:23:00 -
[166] - Quote
I guess CCP wants us to quit the game, and perhaps I will when this change comes.
It takes a long tedious grinding with drones. Even with them not being targeted, each mission will take an hour to complete, also preparing the mission, and moving my ship there.
I guess this game won't be worth my time anymore if spending all these hours to lose ships in some L4 missions.
I am not playing this game as a labour, I played this game for fun.
|
Sverige Pahis
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1079
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:25:00 -
[167] - Quote
good point travis wells |
Emmy Mnemonic
Entropy Extension
Soldiers Of New Eve
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:25:00 -
[168] - Quote
I studied a class in Artificial Intelligence at the university faculty of computer science, some 20 years ago. Still remember our professor that started the first lecture by defining what AI is in mathematical terms, one definition more boring and dry than the other. But near the end, he put up a picture with the definition he said that he liked the most:
"Artifical Intelligence is when you make computers behave like they do in the movies".
Guess we now could include "..and in EVE" to that ;-)
Good job CCP! Shooting artificially smarter rats is more fun than shooting artifically stupid rats! I playe EVE to get a challenge, if it was no challenge I would quit. Mostly you get challenges from other players (social aspects, pvp, cooperation in corps and alliance, different people from around the world with different languages and culttures etc etc). But when they are not around, AI rats will give you a substitute and make the boring parts of EVE less boring. |
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:29:00 -
[169] - Quote
good work.. it will cover "player drone ai" too, wont it? |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
193
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:30:00 -
[170] - Quote
FYI, drone launch button would actually be pretty easy to implement
The current issue (I assume, at least) is "how do you decide what drones to launch when the hotkey is pressed"
The solution is simple -- allow us to drag a drone group onto the hotbar. Then, the existing [ctrl|alt] F1-F8 keys can be used to launch drones, removing any ambiguity in the command. |
Konrad Kane
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:32:00 -
[171] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:If you are a solo mission runner using turrets or missiles, this is a virtual non-change. It only impacts drone users and fleets. Standard combat pilots have ammo costs ( excluding t1 crystals ). Drone pilots will now have ammo costs.
It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes.
Now if they allowed you to move drones from your hold to your bay I think you'd have a very fair point.
I'm also interested to see if it'll make some site impossible for a mid SP level player to run solo.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:33:00 -
[172] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:FYI, drone launch button would actually be pretty easy to implement
The current issue (I assume, at least) is "how do you decide what drones to launch when the hotkey is pressed"
The solution is simple -- allow us to drag a drone group onto the hotbar. Then, the existing [ctrl|alt] F1-F8 keys can be used to launch drones, removing any ambiguity in the command.
So much this lol.
|
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Konrad Kane wrote:It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes. Or be a non-drone combat pilot that is ECM jammed 30 seconds at a time (possibly until your tank snaps), dampened and webbed to under 4k lock range (no point in having turrets for some situations), and similar scenarios.
|
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:34:00 -
[174] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, i don't agree with this part, a carrier can mount smart bombs and neuts, hell I've ECM-bursted my way out of level 5s in a carrier before just to see if I could do it.
The problem I have with switching aggro to drones is just the shear tediousness of having to do it over and over again. That's not fun, pve should at least be somewhat enjoyable.
We'll see how it pans out.
Well heavy drones are very slow, so you will loose drones. Smartbombs are not good in high sec.
So yea, please program npc's to leave drones alone at least in high sec.
|
aoeu Itonula
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:35:00 -
[175] - Quote
Will you also be removing the absurdity of "groups" in missions (and select DED sites)? It's hilariously unrealistic that going into a room and shooting 1 rat should leave the majority of the rats just sitting there doing nothing, so will that be changed as well with the AI changes? |
Aethlyn
EVE University
Ivy League
135
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:36:00 -
[176] - Quote
Despana wrote:Let me tell you why I will quit this game if this changes will go live:
I play eve since 2004 and I am not a big fan of gangs, fleets etc.
Because this game is sandbox, it gives us free choice what to do. My choice is SOLO, period, and here's why it will kill 95% of my fun:
I do fly Assaults and other small ships ships in null / low sec. to catch belt, anomaly, mission hunters on small ships and then kill them when they don't pay enough attention to local and d-scan. Now, killing drakes, ravens, dominixes and other hunter will be impossible on small ships, because I won't have enough time to kill them before NPC's will trim me off.
I think you're taking the change more serious than it is. Feel free to proof me wrong, but what kind of encounters are we talking about? Let's say there's a Battlecruiser doing a Level 3 in low. So you sneak in and start attacking the Battlecruiser with an Assault Ship. What happens now is not having every second NPC start shooting you immediately or anything like that.
There's a chance that they start shooting you, however only the small NPCs flying frigates as well might do so immediately. The bigger ships will still most likely continue shooting the Battlecruiser. You might even be able to use the whole change to your advantage, especially in the case the NPCs start shooting the Battlecruiser's drones rather than you.
Looking for more thoughts? Read http://aethlyn.blogspot.com/ or follow me on http://twitter.com/Aethlyn. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
337
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:36:00 -
[177] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Konrad Kane wrote:It's not really the same is it? Rats don't kill missile launchers, when you kill a drone you're removing DPS entirely from the fit. The only way to lose DPS on a missile boat is to run out of ammo. If not perfectly balanced you could lose your whole DPS from a drone wing in minutes. Or be a non-drone combat pilot that is ECM jammed 30 seconds at a time (possibly until your tank snaps), dampened and webbed to under 4k lock range (no point in having turrets for some situations), and similar scenarios.
At least in the future this will only matter until the NPC's aggro your drones. At which point you recall. Then when you relaunch and are jammed they will just sit there and we will both be in the same boat. |
Ardon Gareau
Chasm City Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:39:00 -
[178] - Quote
Tsukinosuke wrote:good work.. it will cover "player drone ai" too, wont it?
I would certainly hope so. Player drones are currently dumb as a rock. |
Reginald Zebranky
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:42:00 -
[179] - Quote
NPCs switching targets in some of the more difficult complexes is going to be troublesome for sure.
I know lots of folks rely on being able to manage who the structures/npcs are shooting at.
Sites like
- The Maze (final room)
- Dread Guristas fleet staging point (final stage)
- No Quarter (final stage)
put out an astronomical amount of DPS. A dedicated tanking ship is usually required.
The tank-ship (often a pimped-out Tengu or a capital ship) typically sacrifices dps for tank.
The high-skilled tengu-tanker takes the aggro and lower-skilled players warp in with whatever dps ships they have.
Managing who that structure fires its Citadel Torps or Siege Railguns Batteries at is pretty key.
It is going to be interesting to see how this works out. We're going to have to come up with new techniques on the double.
Hopefully it won't lock lower-skilled players out of participating in these harder plexes entirely.
On a related note: Along with the heavy missile dps nerf this is another hit to nullsec player income. We could sure use an isk buff out here! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
250
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:44:00 -
[180] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:What about sites like Dread Guristas Fleet Staging Point 3?
There is a Guristas Fleet Stronghold that launches Citadel Torpedos every 30 seconds. It will obliterate any subcap support for the capital already required to tank it if it switches targets.
Or is it expected some sites become cap only? To be honest I am not familiar with this site and will have to test it.
Wait, WHAT? I totally missed this.
You're thinking about making changes to content you're not personally familiar with?
Are you familiar with any of the DED 10/10s and 9/10 equivalents (Fleet Staging Points), like especially the Blood Raider one that not only throws a citadel torp at you but neuts you so dry the only way to tank it is with a totally passive and expensive armor tanked low sig high EM resist ship?
As politely as I can manage may I say please don't screw around with content that your players enjoy that you know nothing about until you know more about it please. This is how things get broken, does ccp normally let people who don't know the content inside and out make changes?
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