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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 64 post(s)
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 260	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:18:00 - [571] - Quote Sid Grey wrote: Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it! I must have missed that post. Actually would work well. AFK drone boats would be useless, while players willing to tell there drones what to do are rewarded with no drone aggro. However this will not address the problem with group PVE. A battleship will still not be able to protect a logi. The logi will pull even more aggro from smaller ships as it will not share those ships with drones. Large weapon systems need a large increase in hate generation. And hate generation needs to be more powerful than size preference. A battleship should be able to pull the agro of cruiser size ships off other cruiser size ships. I really do not want to have to give up flying battleships in PVE and switch to HAC's just to manage aggro. And what does this do to mission runners that can not fly T3 cruisers or HAC's? A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:18:00 - [572] - Quote Sid Grey wrote: Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it! Far more issues than just drones..
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 260	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:56:00 - [573] - Quote Singira wrote: Ok, since apparently reading is hard.. My PvE = Not affected because I can easily do 0.0 anoms and lvl4's without the use of drones, and there is no such thing as a "hard" lvl4 mission.. Actually I can fit less tank to my missionboats now, because I know agro will be distributed between them and none of them will take full agro.. And you say I can't read?? Your PVE in a Tengu not being affected has absolutely zero impact on how other play styles are affected. This change is game breaking for battleships and drone boats. Ships like Tengu's that speed tank and do not use drones are irrelevant to this discussion. Singira wrote: My PvP = Broken cause I can no longer hunt ratters in a bomber or other small stuff solo.. Simple enough I should think.. If you actually read the comments from FOXFOUR this has already been fixed. Attacking a ratter will no longer generate threat with the NPC's. You will still have to deal with some small rats that the ratter has not generated threat with switching to your smaller ship. But hey, even ganking ratters needs to have some risk. Singira wrote: As for the PLEX debate: ALL PLEX on market have been paid for allready with RL cash. The time they have been there is irrelevant, it is a I.O.U. from CCP to the person who redeems said PLEX. If you stop supplying RL cash, it will show up in the "checkbook" because less money is going in and if this is going to balance then "someone" has to start buying more PLEX to make up for the loss in subs, or GTC's.. There are no two ways about that.. Yes they have been payed for. The game time they will eventually cover has also been accounted for in CCP's finacial plan. You massively underestimate the number of new PLEX brought into the game thru players buying them with real money. Do you recall what happened to PLEX a few months ago when the website to purchase PLEX was down? PLEX prices spiked to almost 700 mil and supply in Jita almost dried up. At one point there was less than 30 PLEX available in Jita. You think I do not understand what you are saying. I do. It is just that you are wrong. If everyone stopped buying PLEX for real money today there would be no PLEX to buy in game within a few days. They move that fast. The more players buy PLEX for ISK in game the higher the price will go. The higher the price goes the more players will buy PLEX for cash to sell for isk. The more this happens the faster the PLEX market will move. No matter how many players stop paying subs and switch to buying PLEX with isk it will only benefit CCP. there are already thousands of accounts payed with PLEX bought with isk. The one day their web site was down proved how quickly the PLEX supply depletes with the supply is stopped. There is no financial scenario where players switching from subs to buying PLEX for isk will not benefit CCP. The PLEX in the in game market are turned over in days not years. And the account extension from every PLEX in game has already been accounted for by CCP. So the scenario you are pushing does not exist. Singira wrote: If you feel that you should keep paying CCP for adding the AI you allso dislike, feel free to do so.. PLEX will get more expensive regardless, simply because more people will have more ISK to spend so demand will rise.. How is it that players have more isk to spend? Mining income has been increased some, most other incomes from mission running, plexing, ratting, incursions, etc. have not changed much, while the costs of everything in game has gone way up. Similar incomes combined with higher expenses means players have less isk over all to spend not more. Singira wrote: Clear cut enough for you? I hope so, cause im not argueing with you about this anymore. Pay them if you want to, don't if you want to push them a little towards making proper changes sooner than later... I for one am going to keep my money and let someone else with too much RL cash pay for Foxfours terrible AI that is going live despite the fact that Foxfour has infact stated that it will be replaced because it is not working as intended.. It should simply just not go live untill a proper AI is created.. Well no offense but it make absolutely no difference to CCP if the money for your account comes from you or someone else who payed for the PLEX. In fact it is actually better for CCP to receive $17.50 to $20 for the PLEX than to receive $11.25 to $15 from you for the same game time. All the money goes to the same place, and increasing the demand for PLEX will only cause more PLEX to be purchased for real money. This will in now way reduce CCP's income, it will only increase it. The PLEX you use for your game time was not generated two years ago. It was probably generated within the last 48 hours. PLEX does move that fast. We have all seen it. When the PLEX spike comes around X-mas as it always does. I plan On buying 6-12 PLEX to sell for isk. This will give me the capital needed to keep me in ships over the holidays when I do not wish to spend time grinding isk. I do understand what you are trying to say. You just do not understand that you are wrong.
Mund Richard 7	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:59:00 - [574] - Quote Sid Grey wrote: Ver very simple fix! Was mentioned before 20 pages ago, NPC'S ONLY AGGRO AGGRESIVE DRONES!! Fix it and everyone has a great experience and this thread wont get deviated from any longer. Fix it! While I see what you want to achieve, I don't see it being done from a designer's POW. As in, it makes not much sense. Could just remove the aggressive drone setting and call it a day. Of course that would be a terrible idea, when you are jammed or dampened below the target's range. What about NPCs that do those, suddenly drones need to be on "auto pilot", but then they are ripped apart? Not good. You could just call for disabling target swapping for drones, but allow new waves to target drones. That would still require some presence from the player, and yet wouldn't be just a switch on the player's part, which is a bit silly. Sarcasm can be like drugs.
Mund Richard 7	Posted - 2012.11.20 19:06:00 - [575] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect. Interestingly enough, it's not just the cruisers that swap to new targets at times, but the WHOLE FRAGGIN ROOM! So you'll need a logi that tanks, and a similarly fit logi that repairs the logi under fire, and then the other way around when the AI goes for the other one. And let's not head into the Gurista jamming topic... Sarcasm can be like drugs.
Sid Grey Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2012.11.20 19:35:00 - [576] - Quote Seriously though, CCP is trying to crackdown on farming, which sounds mostly legit. Dropping them in anoms and walking away yes is wrong, but active using your drones shouldnt get them nuked while there 30km and have no hope of making it back. Its like CCP gives drone users a reward in one hand(drone dps buff), then smacks the **** outta us with the other (dead drones). Hoever you can, please fix with either less aggro or no aggro for actively using my drones in anoms
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 260	Posted - 2012.11.20 19:35:00 - [577] - Quote Mund Richard wrote: Bugsy VanHalen wrote: A well fit logi can tank agro from a couple cruiser and smaller ships long enough for the BS to kill them. But sometimes there are 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships. If they all aggro the logi at once it is dead. the missions where a logi is actually needed, like most level 5 missions, 15-20 cruiser and smaller ships is very common. So the missions where the logi is needed the most are the same missions where it is the hardest to protect. Interestingly enough, it's not just the cruisers that swap to new targets at times, but the WHOLE FRAGGIN ROOM! So you'll need a logi that tanks, and a similarly fit logi that repairs the logi under fire, and then the other way around when the AI goes for the other one. And let's not head into the Gurista jamming topic... Interesting. With my testing I was able to hold the agro of the Battlecruisers and battleships off my logi, but all the cruisers, destroyers, and frigates in the room attacked the logi and drones. when the drones where gone they all switched to the logi. In a mission where there are only a handful of smaller ships this was manageable. I could pop them quickly. But some missions has over 20 small ships. That was enough DPS to insta pop my logi even with a tank on it. The alfa of so many NPC's switching at the same time insta popped it. having another logi there to throw reps would not have helped. There is no way of fitting a logi with enough buffer and still be an effective logi. This is level 5 missions not level 4. No need for logi in level 4 missions. you can spider tank a bunch of HAC's and/or T3's but the traditional BS with logi support is no longer viable with this change.
Veryez Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 42	Posted - 2012.11.20 20:36:00 - [578] - Quote CCP FoxFour wrote: Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them. Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if this is really 'your' goal, or 'our' goal. Perhaps it is both. Reading this makes it sound so enjoyable, I mean who doesn't like PvP? But when you delve a little deeper into this statement, you come up with some pretty nagging questions: 1) Will the NPC rats drop the nice deadspace booster that the last tengru I killed did? Perhaps then it will be worth my time. 2) CCP hates solo PvP and has said so on multiple occasions, face it. PvP in EvE is always a matter of 'bring more', as 'bring more' always wins. So missions will turn into affairs of 'bring more' with the proposed change? We already have team NPC stuff (incursions and sleepers), now all rats will require teams? 3) Maybe you're much better than I am, but I have never considered PvPing in a marauder, ever. Not to mention that active tanks in PvP become rather pointless as numbers grow. So are you changing Marauders into solo pwn mobiles, or removing them from the game? See marauders are suppose to be mission running ships, and not PvP ships (thus the minimal sensor strength and gimped grid on the vargur so you can't put neuts on it - remember that's what you told us when you released them) Can I have my sp refunded when they are removed from the game? Face it, turning missions into solo PvP contests is rife with problems. Shield tanks are often gimped when they have to fit webs and scrams to hold NPC's while you kill them. But we can handle this in PvP since we don't solo in them, I love my hawk when I'm roaming in a gang, but for solo work I normally switch to the vengence. I guess I applaud your decision to not allow NPC's to target drones multiple times until you fix the problems with NPC agression (because I like to hunt ratters too). But you need to fix other issues too, like frigates than can target you @ 70k and web you from 60. NPC's that you can't neut off their guns and reps. NPC torps that hit you from beyond t2 jav ranges. And the fact that tanking 20 NPC battleships shooting at you isn't all that difficult. When you give NPC's the same ships that players have, with the same limitations and drops, then by all means make me kill one or two of them and call it a mission, hell remove the bounties and let me live on random drops of faction/deadspace loot. Oh and fix the marauders so that they work against these new NPC's or remove them and refund our sp's.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:04:00 - [579] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: And you say I can't read?? Your PVE in a Tengu not being affected has absolutely zero impact on how other play styles are affected. This change is game breaking for battleships and drone boats. Ships like Tengu's that speed tank and do not use drones are irrelevant to this discussion. This is a perfect example of you reading but apparently not understanding. Not bothering anymore.. Bugsy VanHalen wrote: If you actually read the comments from FOXFOUR this has already been fixed. Attacking a ratter will no longer generate threat with the NPC's. You will still have to deal with some small rats that the ratter has not generated threat with switching to your smaller ship. But hey, even ganking ratters needs to have some risk. Foxfour has said no such thing, and if you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that it is the small rats that is the problem, not the battleships.. You think there is not enough risk involved in jumping a BS or BC in a frig deep in hostile 0.0 with 10+ of his friends in local? Either you are clueless or trolling. I just went to Buckingham before posting this, to test that I am not wrong.. Went to an anomaly with an alt and started ratting.. Jumped my alt with a Purifier and warpdisrupted him. Instantly caught agro from frigates/dessies regardless if he had drones out. Most of the time I get agro from a few cruisers too Even got up to BS agro ONLY for warpdisrupting the ratter if I stuck around disrupting the ratting BS for long enough. I even caught agro from rats the ratting BS was currently shooting at.. Edit: And how do you suggest the ratter will "generate threat" on these other rats, when their agro is based on Sig radius and use of Ewar?... Even from the viewpoint of a ratter this is so incredibly stupid, and it is in sharp contrast to wanting to nerf 0.0 PvE income.. Bugsy VanHalen wrote: bla bla bla more crap about PLEX Not getting into this anymore as you clearly do not understand the point, do as you wish I dont care.. Bugsy VanHalen wrote: How is it that players have more isk to spend? Mining income has been increased some, most other incomes from mission running, plexing, ratting, incursions, etc. have not changed much, while the costs of everything in game has gone way up. Similar incomes combined with higher expenses means players have less isk over all to spend not more. They will have more ISK because the only thing that is preventing full farm 23-7 in 0.0 is people trying to kill them. And you make significantly more out there than you do running missions.. The new "AI" quite simply means that hunting ratters is close to impossible without a gang or upshipping to the point where I can tank the ratter and the rats. But in turn that will mean getting around will become close to impossible as I will be a lot easier to catch for the blob having SOV and a more expensive and thus more interesting target to hunt. Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Blabla more PLEX ****. You just do not understand that you are wrong. Well you assume that you are right based solely on the assumption that an equal ammount of PLEX will be bought to compensate. And like I said, it is your money do with them as you please, keep paying for admitted broken content going live regardless. But from my point of view.. If you want to avoid your logi getting agro, don't bring it.. Bring a fast frigate with a targetpainter and speedtank everything while your ratting BS can just sit practically without a tank and kill everything while the fast frigate is orbitting you at your optimal range speedtanking everything.. Most of the time the frig will get most of the agro.. Last but not least, any testing done lately should have been done on Buckingham, so clearly you havent been on testservers for quite a while. So stop trying to lecture me about how it works when you have not even checked it.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:08:00 - [580] - Quote Veryez wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them. Whenever I read something like this, I wonder if this is really 'your' goal, or 'our' goal. Perhaps it is both. Reading this makes it sound so enjoyable, I mean who doesn't like PvP? But when you delve a little deeper into this statement, you come up with some pretty nagging questions: 1) Will the NPC rats drop the nice deadspace booster that the last tengru I killed did? Perhaps then it will be worth my time. 2) CCP hates solo PvP and has said so on multiple occasions, face it. PvP in EvE is always a matter of 'bring more', as 'bring more' always wins. So missions will turn into affairs of 'bring more' with the proposed change? We already have team NPC stuff (incursions and sleepers), now all rats will require teams? 3) Maybe you're much better than I am, but I have never considered PvPing in a marauder, ever. Not to mention that active tanks in PvP become rather pointless as numbers grow. So are you changing Marauders into solo pwn mobiles, or removing them from the game? See marauders are suppose to be mission running ships, and not PvP ships (thus the minimal sensor strength and gimped grid on the vargur so you can't put neuts on it - remember that's what you told us when you released them) Can I have my sp refunded when they are removed from the game? Face it, turning missions into solo PvP contests is rife with problems. Shield tanks are often gimped when they have to fit webs and scrams to hold NPC's while you kill them. But we can handle this in PvP since we don't solo in them, I love my hawk when I'm roaming in a gang, but for solo work I normally switch to the vengence. I guess I applaud your decision to not allow NPC's to target drones multiple times until you fix the problems with NPC agression (because I like to hunt ratters too). But you need to fix other issues too, like frigates than can target you @ 70k and web you from 60. NPC's that you can't neut off their guns and reps. NPC torps that hit you from beyond t2 jav ranges. And the fact that tanking 20 NPC battleships shooting at you isn't all that difficult. When you give NPC's the same ships that players have, with the same limitations and drops, then by all means make me kill one or two of them and call it a mission, hell remove the bounties and let me live on random drops of faction/deadspace loot. Oh and fix the marauders so that they work against these new NPC's or remove them and refund our sp's. THIS... SO MUCH THIS! Can I vote for you next CSM?

Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 261	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:23:00 - [581] - Quote Singira wrote: BLA BLA trolling Um are you a complete idiot?? The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality. if this has been changed then I got more testing to do. Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank? The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed. This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter?? The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works. I am done with you.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:36:00 - [582] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Singira wrote: BLA BLA trolling Um are you a complete idiot?? The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality. if this has been changed then I got more testing to do. Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank? The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed. This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter?? The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works. I am done with you. Did I just write that I tested on my own alt? I think I did.. Back to the issue of having trouble reading and understanding... If they are tested on duality can you please explain why it says "Please use Buckingham" when logging on Duality and it has 0 players on it and is not accepting connections? Really...
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 261	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:48:00 - [583] - Quote Singira wrote: Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Singira wrote: BLA BLA trolling Um are you a complete idiot?? The new A.I. changes are not on Buckingham, they are being tested on duality. if this has been changed then I got more testing to do. Even if it was, you would have to find someone ratting on buckingham to gank. I just checked and there are only 176 players logged onto buckingham right now. Who did you try to gank? The issue with the new A.I. auto targeting ships that warp in and attack the ratter not the NPC's has been fixed. This is a ganking tactic anyway, I thought you said you were a PVPer? Anyone can kill a PVE ratting ship that has a room full of NPC DPS on them already. Are you really complaining about failing to gank a ratter?? The PLEX market has been proven to self balance within days. Just as how quickly the PLEX in game are consumed was confirmed when the website went down and their were almost no PLEX in game to buy within 24 hours. You are the one who can not grasp how it actually works. I am done with you. Did I just write that I tested on my own alt? I think I did.. Back to the issue of having trouble reading and understanding... If they are tested on duality can you please explain why it says "Please use Buckingham" when logging on Duality and it has 0 players on it and is not accepting connections? Really... Duality is an internal testing server. It is only available for us on special occasions. It says use buckingham because duality is only available for open testing at specific times. Only weekends for the last month or so, specifically to test the new A.I. Also duality gets tweaks and updates constantly it is not as stable a build as buckingham is. Buckingham is used for testing changes that are done and ready to be deployed. Testing for bugs, not input on the changes. If you had actually participated in the tests you would know this. I have added you to my blocked list, and will not respond to any more of your trolls.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:56:00 - [584] - Quote Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Huge load of butthurt backpaddle I now understand why people like you use posting alts, hope to meet you ingame :) CCP FoxFour wrote: Hey guys, I have been a bit silent here and for that I apologize. An update on where we stand with the AI changes: As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ. While the change did not make it to the current version on Buckingham I have lowered the drone hate of the AI some more. While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution. After Retribution we will be making a change to the AI so that they only consider damage being dealt to them as something to increase a targets threat. That way when you warp in to kill someone running an anomaly shooting the player does not make the NPC hate you. Also after Retribution, and on the same topic as the previous point, we will be making it so that unless you do something like shoot the NPC or repair a player the NPC won't take your signature radius into account when evaluating targets. Even with the above change without this one frigates would still switch targets. This is where the rest of us are atm. Note the "After Retribution" wich is what I have been saying all along.. I do believe you owe me an appology and the chewing of your own foot..
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 407	Posted - 2012.11.20 22:58:00 - [585] - Quote Right now I am running Damsel in Distress on TQ. Just had the 2 Spider Drones in the 2nd spawn instalock me and drop my speed from 540 ms/ to a tad over 21 m/s, and were webbing me at 28 km. I am certain that my PvE experience will become so much more "enjoyable", when my Hobs are instawebbed to 4% of their max speed, and they are oh, I dunno, 10 km from my ship. Like I said many times, lights and heavies are finished as PvE platforms once this AI is put into full effect.
Miss Silv Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.11.20 23:05:00 - [586] - Quote If we really wanted to play PvE content with rugged intensity and advanced A.I, we'd play singleplayer games. shocker A forced merging of all relaxed PvE content into intense PvP-emulating content is one hell of a d+¡ck move.
CaptainFalcon07 Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost 43	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:59:00 - [587] - Quote This is a very short-sighted changed. You cannot change AI for missions until you change the format of missions. Large ships usually do not have weapons that are battle to destroy smaller ship that go beyond their tracking other than drones. If the NPC's destroy your drones, there is nothing you can do except logoff the site and pray that you don't die, wait for someone to help, or sit and die. This change favors ships that do no require drones such as the Tengu which can reliably hit all sizes of frigs (not quite as well anymore with the nerf).
handige harrie Hedion University Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.11.21 07:52:00 - [588] - Quote Guess CCP is back to their old ways; 1. Think of something that isn't broken or a cause for bad gameplay 2. Change it to something new 3. Say you want feedback 4. Ignore said feedback 5. Release broken feature because of 'time constraints' 6. ?? 7. Tell community you are sorry for the broken feature, but you can't fix it for 2 years because of 'planning' Baddest poster ever
Keko Khaan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2012.11.21 08:40:00 - [589] - Quote Singira wrote: I do not agree.. I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu.. I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain. Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage.. But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE... You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it...
Taupwnz Merchant Union 0	Posted - 2012.11.21 11:13:00 - [590] - Quote Keko Khaan wrote: Singira wrote: I do not agree.. I usually do anomalies in my 100mn PvP fit tengu.. I predict this change to have absolutely no influence on my PvE, however my primary PvP pleasures is going down the drain. Sure I get a little less range, and a little less damage.. But overall, this is going to mean absolutely nothing to my PvE... You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it... It's tank by paasive shield regeneration.

Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.21 11:38:00 - [591] - Quote Keko Khaan wrote: You say your doing anoms in your 100mn pvp tengu.. Is it perhaps buffer fitted tengu that uses logistics as reps? That scimi/whatever is going to die when new ai rats switch agro on it... None of the rat's hit it really, so no it is solo and yes it is just buffer.. Works just fine for lvl4 missions too.. New AI is still crap imho... Was merely making a point that it is very possible to PvE with PvP ships.. Obviously a "real" PvE ship is better at it's job, but it can be done..
Grombutz Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 13	Posted - 2012.11.21 12:58:00 - [592] - Quote Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted. This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis. However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare). CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience. TLDR: Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners.
Singira Snowflake Federation Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 6	Posted - 2012.11.21 13:02:00 - [593] - Quote Grombutz wrote: Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted. This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis. However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare). CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience. TLDR: Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners. Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius.. It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve.. To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works..
Rengerel en Distel Amarr Science and Industry 509	Posted - 2012.11.21 14:02:00 - [594] - Quote Singira wrote: Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius.. It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve.. To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works.. My guess is that they have it to an acceptable spot where nothing else is broken, so that means 'it goes live!' ... if the new changes are in the retribution.1 patch, it'd have to be 2 weeks to a month at the earliest if they allow testing. with holidays, vacations, etc. it'd probably be feb.
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 262	Posted - 2012.11.21 14:20:00 - [595] - Quote Considering 80% of the player base is PVE carebears. Breaking the PVE side of the game could be very bad for business.
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 408	Posted - 2012.11.21 16:24:00 - [596] - Quote Singira wrote: Grombutz wrote: Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted. This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis. However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare). CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience. TLDR: Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners. Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius.. It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve.. To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works.. Yeah, love the part about switching threat assessment to damage rather than sig (not that sig mechanic worked anyway, my drones were insta-aggroed in all missions I tested in an Ishtar, Vargur, and Navy Domi). So let's see......AI chooses targets based on damage being done.....so I am in an Ishtar, and a single Heavy or Sentry does more damage than my guns (which is the case with the majority of well-skilled pilots)....the AI ignores my hull and goes after the drones.....excellent.
Rengerel en Distel Amarr Science and Industry 509	Posted - 2012.11.21 18:13:00 - [597] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Singira wrote: Grombutz wrote: Indeed, we could use a real aggro-system, so people could play tanks, healers and/or DPS while fleeted. This could be the first step to make grouping up more of a teamplay action than it is atm, where all pressure is on the logis. However, the drone AI change (even though I like it) is terribad. Drones are needed for basically every single turretship ingame (except high DPS factionboats like vindi, mach and/or nightmare). CCP refuses to change it, but we will see how many critics they earn once people notice that they are stuck in a mission because they can't kill the orbiting scramble-frigg because their drones went poof. Ofcourse, smart missile-users won't have any problem at all, besides a little inconvenience. TLDR: Drone AI is a perfectly hidden nerf to most mission/anom/complex-runners. Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius.. It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve.. To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works.. Yeah, love the part about switching threat assessment to damage rather than sig (not that sig mechanic worked anyway, my drones were insta-aggroed in all missions I tested in an Ishtar, Vargur, and Navy Domi). So let's see......AI chooses targets based on damage being done.....so I am in an Ishtar, and a single Heavy or Sentry does more damage than my guns (which is the case with the majority of well-skilled pilots)....the AI ignores my hull and goes after the drones.....excellent. That's a pvp fix, you can tell that not many in CCP actually care about the pve end of things. I don't see why they don't just reward direct ISK for pvp kills, and remove pve stuff and save themselves the hassle of pretending.
Sid Grey Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2012.11.21 23:25:00 - [598] - Quote Apperently we forced CCP into reinforced mode, they wont be attackable/reachable until sometime late January 2013
Adigard RubberDuckies -Entropy- 36	Posted - 2012.11.22 00:48:00 - [599] - Quote Singira wrote: Actually Foxfour said that "After Retribution" they will be making an AI that bases threat on damage done rather than signature radius.. It would just be very interesting to know how long "after Retribution" this is, because the current AI planned is going to be very bad for a lot of playstyles and not really solve any of the issues they set out to solve.. Since FoxFour has been working on numerous projects since deploying this change a few months (2 or 3?) ago... I'd say it's not any sort of priority for his manager's. It's possible the whole bloody mess could linger for another 18 months while we wait for the Dev's to get back to it. That could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on just how broken the Rat AI is when it's deployed. If it's deployed in the 'sac a T1 light drone or pull your drones in after they pull aggro and the AI shuts off forever' we won't mind much at all. If it's deployed in the promised 'fix' mode where that 'feature' has been disabled it could be fairly ugly. Singira wrote: To be honest I have no idea why they are insisting on deploying this instead of just waiting till they have something that works.. It makes a lovely bullet point? And they can point back to it and say "Look, we tweaked PvE!"
Mund Richard 7	Posted - 2012.11.22 10:32:00 - [600] - Quote Adigard wrote: That could be a good thing, or a bad thing, depending on just how broken the Rat AI is when it's deployed. If it's deployed in the 'sac a T1 light drone or pull your drones in after they pull aggro and the AI shuts off forever' we won't mind much at all. If it's deployed in the promised 'fix' mode where that 'feature' has been disabled it could be fairly ugly. In all honesty, I don't like that exploit. Even if it works perfectly, and makes me able to ignore a badly done feature that is claimed to be game design, but mostly just work in development on the TQ test server after december. Sarcasm can be like drugs.



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