Did some more testing, some lvl4s as well as some lvl1s and lvl2s, in the new destroyers. Sweet rides by the way, bear to fit tho. More often than not as soon as lights were launched they were targeted and destroyed like Sleepers do, meds and heavies... nothing, just like on TQ. Once I had aggro I could release meds or heavies and the rats would ignore them, they would swap between my logistic alt and myself but ignored the drones unless they were lights or sentries.
If the new AI is going to come to TQ your really going to have to look at how missions/deadspace sites spawn/work. Beefing up NPCs and removing some is one way to help balance things, fewer targets but stronger ones.

Clearly, the AI is not ready for TQ.

in a test environment ! outrageous !

I like the new AI, it invalidates a lot of old dogma and guides, and it requires you to think, so it's fun.

May I ask what level 5 missions you ran?

I vary between 2 accounts. One that is all maxed out with all level 5 skills and one that I apply the needed skills to as I go and delete every so often.

Lots of words

There have been numerous questions about what, if anything, we are going to do about how this change will effect certain gameplay styles outside of running missions or ratting. Things like hunting ratters, ninja salvaging, and playing content with your new friends.

For the most part our stance is that we believe you will adapt and find a way to do it. In some cases this may mean increasing the barrier to entry, but we have already seen players coming up with new ways to do the same stuff..

One of the things we are looking at is increasing how much threat you need to generate before the NPC switch. The specific case we want to look at solving is as I said an experienced player in a Tengu bringing a new player in a Rifter along. If that new player is doing very little damage we don't want all 15 frigates to suddenly decide he needs to die.

Why is this a specific case that needs solving and hunting ratters is not?

What happens if a ship on grid with the NPCs inflicts no damage on them and does not activate any assistance modules on ships that have aggressed the NPC? If I warp in a bomber and activate torpedo launchers and tackle/EWAR modules on a ratter, will this still generate aggression with the NPCs?

The aggression model needs to be smart enough to prevent NPCs from turning into de-facto bodyguards for ratters.

There have been numerous questions about what, if anything, we are going to do about how this change will effect certain gameplay styles outside of running missions or ratting. Things like hunting ratters, ninja salvaging, and playing content with your new friends.

For the most part our stance is that we believe you will adapt and find a way to do it. In some cases this may mean increasing the barrier to entry, but we have already seen players coming up with new ways to do the same stuff.

We do have a concern about the ability for experienced players to bring new players along with them on content. We are also looking into this. What effect any changes we make here have on those other forms of gameplay is not entirely certain yet.

One of the things we are looking at is increasing how much threat you need to generate before the NPC switch. The specific case we want to look at solving is as I said an experienced player in a Tengu bringing a new player in a Rifter along. If that new player is doing very little damage we don't want all 15 frigates to suddenly decide he needs to die.

If what ever change we make to help mitigate that effects the other gameplay styles as well, then so be it. Our stance however is that those that want to will find a way to continue doing those other activities.

Pretty much this. If you want to make PvE 60% more irritating then by all means, go ahead. It's already soul-crushingly awful. But don't go making ratter ganks even fewer and further between. It's already difficult enough to even get on grid with a ratter before they warp out, much less hold a tackle when they start lighting you up. If you take aggro as well based on the size of your ship and whether you use ewar or not then ganking ratters is going to be next to impossible.

It's already difficult to tank ratters long enough to kill them when you're flying the kind of ship that can catch a ratter (bombers, inties, HACs, recons, etc)-- ratters usually do quite a bit of damage. If you then add to that a significant portion of the PvE site's DPS as well there's no way solo players are going to be able to gank ratters anymore, not to mention the fact that NPC aggro potentially mitigates players ability to tackle the ratter at all (NPC jamming or sensor damping is not conducive to point-holding).

You need to find a way to make your AI not switch to players who aren't engaging the rats or otherwise assisting a ratter. Full stop.

Realistically the scenario mentioned doesn't have the NPC's evaluating if 2 pilots within their area of aggression are allied or not, just the amount of threat generated. So what benefits the allied new pilot in a rifter that isn't generating enough damage to trigger a switch also helps the enemy SB pilot since he isn't shooting the rats

In theory this is how it should work but based on Foxfour's earlier comments about solo ganking in a bomber "no longer being possible" and the devblog indicating that rats prefer to target ships closer to their own size, there is more to the switch trigger than just aggression.

Indeed, but the comment presented about the Rifter flying with a Tengu seems aimed at that very scenario. The Rifter is a frig so the NPC frigs should prioritize killing it but threat level evaluation prevents that (or perhaps just reduces the likelihood?) and keeps them focused on the source of the DPS threatening them. If this general idea is implemented to some degree I can't see how they would fix one without fixing the other.

There have been numerous questions about what, if anything, we are going to do about how this change will effect certain gameplay styles outside of running missions or ratting. Things like hunting ratters, ninja salvaging, and playing content with your new friends.

For the most part our stance is that we believe you will adapt and find a way to do it. In some cases this may mean increasing the barrier to entry, but we have already seen players coming up with new ways to do the same stuff.

We do have a concern about the ability for experienced players to bring new players along with them on content. We are also looking into this. What effect any changes we make here have on those other forms of gameplay is not entirely certain yet.

One of the things we are looking at is increasing how much threat you need to generate before the NPC switch. The specific case we want to look at solving is as I said an experienced player in a Tengu bringing a new player in a Rifter along. If that new player is doing very little damage we don't want all 15 frigates to suddenly decide he needs to die.

If what ever change we make to help mitigate that effects the other gameplay styles as well, then so be it. Our stance however is that those that want to will find a way to continue doing those other activities.

From what I understand from this, if someone lands next to someone ratting in 0.0 and tackles the him, the rats will not likely start shooting at the tackler, unless the tackler also started agressing the rats in some way

I tested what would happen if I were a Thrasher pilot with evil designs on a mission runner. The frigates liked shooting the Thrasher regardless of its behavior. I could sit there at zero velocity with no modules active and they would switch to me. The frigates especially liked shooting the Thrasher if the mission runner recalled drones for a few seconds. They really liked shooting the Thrasher whenever it pointed the mission runner (that got me tackled and webbed by the NPCs). It seems like in the absence of multiple ships with similar sig radii to force it to calculate threat, the AI will just go after whatever matches the relevant sig radius without thinking about threat. So...unless the AI gets smarter about assessing threat, small things warping into missions will get shot up by frigates, be they friend or foe.

To all you people rejoicing the further nerfing of L4's with this idiotic change, I ask why?
What the hell did someone running a L4 mission ever do to you?
How is their gameplay affecting you?

BTW, those that run BS gunboats in missions, and believe this new AI will have zero impact on them, think again.
I tested it.

Unless your BS has a webber and possibly a target painter on it, I would just love to know how you plan on nailing the tackling frig NPC's, that get under your guns.

Because the new AI instapops small drones now, and Fox Four will be making the AI harder, not easier.
The AI ignored my heavies in missions, but immediately went after the lights.

Fox Four plans on addressing the AI ignoring the heavies, and that means the AI will hammer the lights even harder.

When this atrocity hits TQ, their will be so much loud and long screaming.

Indeed, but the comment presented about the Rifter flying with a Tengu seems aimed at that very scenario. The Rifter is a frig so the NPC frigs should prioritize killing it but threat level evaluation prevents that (or perhaps just reduces the likelihood?) and keeps them focused on the source of the DPS threatening them. If this general idea is implemented to some degree I can't see how they would fix one without fixing the other.

To be more direct if threat generation is needed to get aggression then something that generates no threat gets no aggression be it friend or foe of the missioner/plexer/ratter/etc. The only question is how hard the NPC's will stick to that mechanic, but regardless PvP'ers will benefit more than PvE'ers since the latter will be trying to generate some threat to the NPC's while the former will be concentrating solely on the PvE'er and generating less, if not no threat to the NPC's.

I think you're forgetting the fact that the new AI hates / loathes / despises EWar. So once the PvP'er lights up the PvE'er with a Warp Scram / Web and starts shooting... he's going to top the hate list.

Regardless of how much damage the PvP'er deals to the Rats or the mission runner... he's still gaining mountains of hate from all the EWar he's doing. Unless you actually imagine the CCP Dev's are going to rewrite the AI code to help PvP'ers (a group they've already decided can just suck up the change).

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.

Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive hate spikes.

Heck, it seems you can web your own drones and gain the threat (I haven't tested this personally BTW), so it definitely is not going to assist PvP'ers at all.

Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive heat spikes.

Threat generation should take into account what the target of the EWAR is. Other MMOs have managed to achieve this for over a decade now so I don't understand why the supposedly new and improved AI is so dumb that it cannot assign threat based on what the EWAR or assistance modules are actually targeted on.

At this rate of confusion and "what if's?" I foresee this whole change ending up in the trash can.