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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 64 post(s) |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
23
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Posted - 2012.10.18 22:26:00 -
[151] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. But I have experienced game changing patches in games many times before and it has never ended well. SOE developers insisted that the NGE patch was the right thing to do, yet it still resulted in near death of SWG which it never recovered from.
This won't be a NGE moment, but there will be a fair chunk of player's having just slightly less fun at PvE afterwards.
Apparently, that's the goal though. I guess like everything else, it'll be awesome after 18 months. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
695
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Posted - 2012.10.18 22:32:00 -
[152] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Smart AI and Dumb players leads to a lot of frustration and cancelled accounts. Cancelled accounts hurt an MMO no matter what type of players it is that cancelled.
Since when can you run a Vangard with 3-5 ships? That is small gang PVE. While Vangaurds are certainly no where near the massive fleets seen in null sec sov war. A small gang is 3-5 ships not 9-12. 9-12 ships requires an organized fleet with an experienced FC to actually work. A small gang can be multiboxed by a single player.
I was talking about level 5 missions not level 4 and 9/10 and 10/10 DED sites. The only way to solo those is with a carrier. Any thing sub cap you need a small gang.
I agree that player will learn to adapt and change the way they play to suit the new AI. But how many will quit before that happens. From what I have seen in MMO's in the past most players will rage quit rather than adapt and change their play style. You can say good riddance, but in an MMO declining population means death of the game. EVE has done well to survive for over 9 years. I would hate to see it take a dive because the developers over looked something so significant.
Maybe I am seeing something that is not there. But I have experienced game changing patches in games many times before and it has never ended well. SOE developers insisted that the NGE patch was the right thing to do, yet it still resulted in near death of SWG which it never recovered from.
If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%
You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
23
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Posted - 2012.10.18 22:44:00 -
[153] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote: If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%
You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.
Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though.
And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation? |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
695
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Posted - 2012.10.18 23:10:00 -
[154] - Quote
Adigard wrote:Tobiaz wrote: If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%
You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.
Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though. And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation?
There are still mass tests coming. Who knows how much the AI template will be altered after that. I wouldn't be surprised if CCP pays extra attention to the Domis and Rattlers on the test server.
As for profitability... with all the downtime, running HQs really isn't that profitable yet it's very popular. Ofcourse that's mostly because of the social aspect. Just as there are mission runners that are determined to grind missions solo with their multi-box fleet, ignoring other, more profitable PVE, because it requires teamplay. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
195
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Posted - 2012.10.18 23:23:00 -
[155] - Quote
I am so excited This should liven up high Sec
I now have to find the time to play this weekend Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
467
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Posted - 2012.10.19 02:05:00 -
[156] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Adigard wrote:Tobiaz wrote: If the new AI makes it much harder to fly multi-boxed 3-5 fleets I will support this 100%
You're seriously exaggerating the amount of people that will ragequit over a harder AI. Like I said, it's already implemented in Incursions and the players obviously enjoy it. So saying copying it to missions will 'kill' EVE, makes you sound like Chicken Little.
Fairly certain the new AI has been proven to add zero difficulty to the Dual AFK Domi setup... Can't imagine how this change will impact multi-boxers without also impacting real live player's though. And while comparing Incursion 'fun' to mission fun... are you also remembering to compare the profit? Or is that totally absent from your equation? There are still mass tests coming. Who knows how much the AI template will be altered after that. I wouldn't be surprised if CCP pays extra attention to the Domis and Rattlers on the test server. As for profitability... with all the downtime, running HQs really isn't that profitable yet it's very popular. Ofcourse that's mostly because of the social aspect. Just as there are mission runners that are determined to grind missions solo with their multi-box fleet, ignoring other, more profitable PVE, because it requires teamplay.
As was said in the other thread i believe, WHs and Incursions were developed with the improved AI in mind. Nothing else in the game has been, so everything else that has npc AI is being altered. They've already had to go back to the old AI in some cases because the site wasn't designed to not have aggro set on warpin. The testing is fast approaching though, so at least we can finally stop all these "what if" and doom and gloom posts.
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
427
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Posted - 2012.10.19 09:09:00 -
[157] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Ganthrithor wrote:CCP FoxFour-- I notice you haven't responded to people's questions regarding player ships attacking ratters in sites. Will the NPCs aggro the attacking player?
If this is the case it will need to be changed, seeing as the types of ship that are typically capable of getting a tackle on a ratter (covops, bombers, interdictors, inties, etc) are generally extremely fragile and will not be able to deal with incoming dps from both the rats and the ratter. It's already extremely difficult to grab ratters before they can warp out to a safe location, please don't make it even harder. The balance on this issue is something we are discussing internally and still play testing. I have not responded because we are still not 100% sure if we want to change anything and if so what. :) That's what we like to hear :) Or just adapt and use a Proteus, the definitive heavy cloaky tackle of w-space. Aggro-switching to attacking players is an awesome game mechanic, forcing attackers to think. More variables on field is always a good thing. Add more scramming rats so the ratters can't always warp away!
Maybe you're not aware, but a stealth bomber is often the only type of ship in the game that stands a reasonable chance of tackling a ratter, since it is the only type of ship with a high base scan res, the ability to warp cloaked, and no sensor recalibration time after decloaking. So, as much as we'd just love to adapt (I would love for CCP to introduce something bigger and tankier with the aforementioned attributes!) there's simply no other option at this time. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1354
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Posted - 2012.10.19 17:52:00 -
[158] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:Maybe you're not aware, but a stealth bomber is often the only type of ship in the game that stands a reasonable chance of tackling a ratter, since it is the only type of ship with a high base scan res, the ability to warp cloaked, and no sensor recalibration time after decloaking. So, as much as we'd just love to adapt (I would love for CCP to introduce something bigger and tankier with the aforementioned attributes!) there's simply no other option at this time.
And the tradeoff for all that power is a frail ship.
I'd love a heavier ship with no sensor recalibration too, but it would become the defacto hunting first tackler and really shake up the game.
In the meantime, train cloak to V and use the rigs that lower the recalibration time.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
John Henke
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.10.19 19:18:00 -
[159] - Quote
I just logged in to Duality and started missioning.
My first impression of the new NPC-AI is, that is much too aggressive.
I was doing Intercept the Saboteurs in my CNR. In the second stage i lost 4 of my 8 Hobgoblins II within seconds. I recalled them 2 or 3 times. After restarting 1 or 2 of them have been killed almost immediately. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
468
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Posted - 2012.10.19 19:19:00 -
[160] - Quote
Trying a few level 1s in a Vexor, and I don't always get aggro at all. If i destroy 5 out of 7 ships, the others eventually pick me up and start firing. If i launch light drones, they'll switch to the drones. As there's no indicator to really know which is hitting which drone, i can't tell if they pick different drones, then switch, or if they're picking individual drones from the start. If i then recall the drones, i often don't pick up aggro again.
Tried a level 1 with a rattlesnake, just to get a large size difference, and it was nearly impossible for me to get aggro from the drones. I was firing missiles and target painting, and it didn't seem to have any effect. If any ewar is supposed to draw aggro from the drones, it's not quite working.
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
357
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Posted - 2012.10.19 19:43:00 -
[161] - Quote
It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators. Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working.
He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test.
The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE.
Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit? If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it.
I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th.
Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384 |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
468
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Posted - 2012.10.19 20:20:00 -
[162] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators. Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working. He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test. The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE. Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit? If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it. I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th. Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384
This is the actual feedback thread, please keep your whining confined to the other threads.
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
785
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Posted - 2012.10.19 23:27:00 -
[163] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators. Goliath and I tangled in one of the other threads and he stated that he is not interested in how difficult this makes missions, or impossible, but only if the actual mechanic is working. He stated that if the AI works in one mission, it will work in all missions, and that is all he cares about finding out with this test. The only way he, Fox Four, and the other null sec zealots will scale back the devastation this does to high sec income will be when this mechanism hits Tranquility, and the posts start flying in the forums. Even then, it won't matter until sub rate drops can be directly attributed to this attack. And given all the other changes going on, plus the addition of Dust, it won't be possible for months to sort out how many players quit over this destruction of high sec PvE. Further, why do you think no one has posted with any stats since Diagoras got fired or quit? If there is no information provided on high sec income (Diagoras used to give precise info), then all CCP has to say is "nope, people are happy with the changes, since high sec income has shown no dropoff", and there is no way to refute it. I am grinding as much ISK as I can now, using my Ishtar, and will be moving to a gunboat BS after Dec 4th. Drones as a PvE platform are dead after Dec 4th. Edit: adding the link where Goliath states he does not care if the new AI wipes out drone based PvE, for the purposes of this test window. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2063384#post2063384
Have you tried it yet?
Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
715
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Posted - 2012.10.19 23:28:00 -
[164] - Quote
It's awesome that you can now hear things in your head that aren't there -- and you expect everyone else to verify it for you.
On the actual topic, will try to hop on tomorrowish. I'm really looking forward to this. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
398
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Posted - 2012.10.19 23:32:00 -
[165] - Quote
Mission completion will be hard in the mass test becouse structures can not be destroyed. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
468
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Posted - 2012.10.19 23:46:00 -
[166] - Quote
Trying level 4s with a rattlesnake, and light drones get aggro pretty quickly. One went into armor before the UI even showed they had launched to me. Was able to retrieve them and relaunch to less aggro, but still that seemed a little quick. I haven't tried one using heavy drones, but I can't see that going well if they get aggro. Target painting wasn't enough to get me aggro over just the innate drone sig size.
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Davith en Divalone
Open University of Celestial Hardship Art of War Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.10.20 01:38:00 -
[167] - Quote
Just did Level 2 Smuggler Interception (Angels). Drones got frigate aggro once. The change was visible in the overview. The rats snapped back to me as soon as I recalled and didn't have a problem after I redeployed. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
265
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Posted - 2012.10.20 03:21:00 -
[168] - Quote
Ran some quick missions in a Nighthawk and had very little frig aggro towards my drones.
Not even when I focussed on the larger boats and let the drones feast on the frigs.
They got aggro from frigs at some occasions but either a quick recall and redeploy or just flicking a missile at the misbehaving frig solved it.
Will break out the Rattler and run some more during the weekend.
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mkint
919
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Posted - 2012.10.20 06:45:00 -
[169] - Quote
I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf? Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1936
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Posted - 2012.10.20 07:55:00 -
[170] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:It is pointless to give examples of how disastrous these changes are for drone operators.
By "examples" do you mean "actual events where I have run missions using drones" or do you mean "based on theory crafting and forum warrioring"?
mkint wrote:I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf?
Partly because people were AFKing DED complexes with sentry Domis 24x7. Partly because CCP want to bring PvE more inline with PvP (that is: the AI will target the most dangerous/easiest to kill enemy, rather than whoever arrived on grid first).
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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Scorpio DK
FireStar Inc Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.10.20 10:06:00 -
[171] - Quote
ran a sansha haven using a drone ship had no real issues with the aggro on the drones,
they would swap back between my main ship and the drones depending on what ship was doing more damage to them i guess i shot 1 specific npc with a railgun it aggro the dominix but the others focused on the drones
i did notice 1 thing that i am not sure if it is intended the npc had me warp scrambled so i attacked it with my light drones and it stopped warp scrambling me so i could recall my drones and warp off without being scrambled if i wanted to, not sure if this was intended or not
overall looks like it works, was more work to monitor the drones but had no issues completing the haven at all |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
20
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Posted - 2012.10.20 10:43:00 -
[172] - Quote
Just tested dualboxing in high-end complex (9/10) using bs+ab logi setup.
No problems at all.
It seems that bs generates much more threat and primaried 90% of time. Those aggro that goes on logi sometimes (at the end of the resp mostly) is totally mitigated by ab and single active tank module
Still, some of the complexes, requiring high dps (those with station like 8/10 of sansha and angel) will be undoable this way. as even with old bs+sentry domi setup they take veeery long time to break. Oh well, good riddance, since sanshas 8/10 usually drops nothing but box. Wasnt worth of time anyway. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
621
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Posted - 2012.10.20 13:08:00 -
[173] - Quote
mkint wrote:I'm still confused. Why the drone nerf?
its not really a drone nerf its more a complex nerf...
right now i use a NH and rr domi to do 10/10 complexes...
after the expansion this will no longer be possible because the domi will drag aggro and die...
i'm still playing around but i think i will have to switch to a duel snake setup to solo these things...
though tbh i have been calling for enhanced AI for a while now... i just wish they reduced the amount of rats you have to shoot and made them harder to kill to offset... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
621
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Posted - 2012.10.20 13:18:00 -
[174] - Quote
i think the best way to offset the done pilots pain due to new drone aggro mechanincs would be to allow drones to be repaired while in a drone bay via using nano repair paste...
what this would do is allow a drone pilot to repair his drones while they are in the bay and this would greatly reduce the pain of drone death... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
468
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Posted - 2012.10.20 13:59:00 -
[175] - Quote
Perhaps instead of saying "drone ship" people can give actual info. I ran around 10 missions between a vexor and rattlesnake, and saw consistent drone aggro, while others are saying it was minimal. It would be nice to know if it's because of the inherent lack of other dps on drone boats vs ships that can also use drones. A destroyer that can deploy 1 drone is hardly a drone boat, for example.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1068
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Posted - 2012.10.20 14:25:00 -
[176] - Quote
I just tried AE4 with a Navy Domi. It was hard to test as Duci seems stuck at 10% TiDi, so even after an hour I had not done even the first room. But....
The sentries never got aggro. No issue. When I launched the light drones to kill the frigates, they caught aggro right away, and it was rather difficult to get them back before one died. I did get it back, but if there were more than 2 frigs, the drone would have died. Or if I had lower skills or T1 drones. I think that is the issue: no way to control aggro; you launch drones and BAM! they die. Someone in chat said the same thing: Launched fighters from a carrier and they die to an alpha strike.
Losing drones is not like expending ammo, its not the cost of the loss that's the issue. Its that you have one less weapon system for the remainder of the mission. Its like losing a gun on a gun boat. Thinking of that, one way to adjust things is to increase the size of all drone bays, so more spares can be carried. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
621
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Posted - 2012.10.20 14:26:00 -
[177] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Perhaps instead of saying "drone ship" people can give actual info. I ran around 10 missions between a vexor and rattlesnake, and saw consistent drone aggro, while others are saying it was minimal. It would be nice to know if it's because of the inherent lack of other dps on drone boats vs ships that can also use drones. A destroyer that can deploy 1 drone is hardly a drone boat, for example.
ok from the top of my head: (as i am at work)
drone boats =
tristan
ishkur
ishtar
vexor
myrm
domi
eos (lol)
guritas line up
ammar recons
gal tech III config that uses drone sub systems...
carriers.
new gal and ammar desi
though there are still lots of ships that have drones as a secondary dps source to take out frigs and smaller ships...
so it would be interesting to get a contrast between the two kinds of drone ships... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Renan Ruivo
Vera Cruz. Nulli Secunda
886
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Posted - 2012.10.20 15:23:00 -
[178] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:[...]one way to adjust things is to increase the size of all drone bays, so more spares can be carried.
And then suddenly we are screwing with PVP balance because of a PVE change. The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
339
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Posted - 2012.10.20 15:43:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ran pirate invasion lvl 4 against Angels in a Rattlesnake. Primarily used sentries with some use of heavies/lights. Drones drew no aggro from the spawn which initially aggresses. 2 frig rats specifically orbited me most of the entire mission without switching targets despite no outgoing DPS, RR or Ewar. Subsequent groups which were engaged with the drones targetted them initially, but switched to the RS once recalled and did not attempt to engage the drones again after being redeployed. |
tribcomm4
T A M
0
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Posted - 2012.10.20 16:29:00 -
[180] - Quote
Ran the mission Vengence (lvl4 - Sanshas) in hi-sec.
Warped into first room and didn't shoot anything as i was waiting for the aggro from certain groups - whole pocket aggroed me.
Got an alt to fly into the same room and again didn't fire but the whole room started shooting him. Could only get the aggro off of me by both shooting and then one guy stopping.
Both toons are in tengus (surprise!)
Tried again with one of them fitted with an ecm module and the npc's eventually switched - not quickly though (may try remote reps or drones to switch aggro)
Dont know if the 'in space mission journal' is on tq (have not run missions for a while) but it is very awesome - makes everything so much easier.
Tribcomm4
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