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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Missions, belts, anoms and similar are having their AI updated to include sleeper-similar target changing, based on ship signature. How will you handle this change and what are your thoughts?
Quote:citation: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413forum thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690&find=unread snippet from the blog Q) Will the NPC's switch targets now? A) Yes, yes they will. Q) Will the NPC's choose a targets of the same size, so npc frigates will first target player frigs. A) Yes, the NPC will try and pick targets matching their own size. Q) Will NPC's kill my drones? A) Yes, but they don't hate them nearly as much as sleepers. I ran 9 level 4 missions and lost 2 drones. It does mean you need to pay more attention though. We can adjust their hatred of drones though which is why we are asking for feedback when this hits a test server. Q) Will NPCs do any new ewar? A) No. Their actual weapons and effects will not be changing. Q) Does this change things like spawns or range activation? A) No. When the NPC decide to start hating you is still based on the individual mission. Q) Does this also cover DED sites, exploration sites, belt NPC, faction navies, and hauler NPC? A) Yes. It covers everything except CONCORD. |
Tarikla
Projet Aurora
28
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 15:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
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Posted - 2012.09.20 15:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).
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Tarikla
Projet Aurora
28
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).
You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...
So RIP Drones Ships . |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...
So RIP Drones Ships . You assume I don't active play my 960 dps Rattlesnake. Or my 1.2k dps Navy Dominix.
I understand and am aware of AFK drone boats being hit by this. But not all drone boats, and not all drone pilots are afk pilots. |
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
80
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:RIP AFK Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. Pretty much this. Can't see a change in damage or EWAR profiles, so no unexpected neuts / TD / TP etc.
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Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
12
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think it will somewhat hurt genuine users of drones (like myself). Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps.
Sentry drones require the ship to be near them to get them in, so it means the player can't go off and kite easily.
Not saying this is a bad change, I think it's quite exciting, but it will shake things up a bit. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Chimpy B wrote:Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps. Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
249
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 16:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
If the do this wrong it stand to be a huge and intense nerfing of null sec DED complexes, some of which throw insta-killer citadel torps at you.
For anomalies and such that I do, it doesn't mean anything every ship I take into an anom can tank the anom, period, hell, target switching means my machariel will take less damage in forlorn hubs, making it safer all around. I just worry about the affect this could have on 9/10 and 10/10 styled DEDs. The (slim) chance scalations from anoms to high level DEDs is part of the fun of doing anomalies, if they make them too risky I'd just have to skip em :(..... |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals). You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ... So RIP Drones Ships .
Non-sense. |
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
996
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals). Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock. I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots.
Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
996
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Chimpy B wrote:Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps. Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps? No, because drones already have to deal with tracking, falloff, and sig radius. This is a additional hit that only effects drone users and fleets. Solo gun and missile users are not affected. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Syn Fatelyng wrote:Chimpy B wrote:Yeah you can recall them and get them out again, but it takes time, especially for medium and large drones and this will cripple dps. Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps? No, because drones already have to deal with tracking, falloff, and sig radius. This is a additional hit that only effects drone users and fleets. Solo gun and missile users are not affected. With one omnidriectional tracking computer my Ogre IIs can hit everything, with very few glancing shots. This includes spider drones. Two omnis means my ogres couldn't glancing hit if they wanted to.
With one module, two at most, you completely negate the small penalties that drones have. You can't do that for turrets with two tracking computers. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
337
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I don't see active drone ships having much issue, at all. Sentry drones can be pulled in very quickly and any heavy drones that are taken out can be chalked up to what every other combat pilot experiences: Ammo cost (excluding t1, nonfaction crystals).
Ammo cost, really? When I lose drones during combat it isn't like using up ammo. It's like losing ammo and THE GUN. Not at all the same.
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Much like how falloff and tracking reduce turret dps, or transversal and speed reduce missile dps?
You haven't pulled in heavy drones from 35km + much have you? It is a significant amount of time where you are applying ZERO DPS. It's not like your drones fire as they are retreating. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
338
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock. I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots. Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range.
Yea and if a drone pilot is damped and cannot lock he also cannot control the drones. Yes sometimes they will keep fighting on autopilot (possibly hitting a trigger early). Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there.
And in the future when they take aggro they will have to be recalled and then we are both in the same boat as they won't auto re-engage when re-deployed.
Bottom line is these changes are gonna suck for drone ships more than any other. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Ammo cost, really? When I lose drones during combat it isn't like using up ammo. It's like losing ammo and THE GUN. Not at all the same. When I don't pay attention and pop the wrong ship in Blockade, my primary weapon system has the potential to become completely and totally useless. Either by constant jams or a locking range so short that my guns can't hit.Derath Ellecon wrote:You haven't pulled in heavy drones from 35km + much have you? It is a significant amount of time where you are applying ZERO DPS. It's not like your drones fire as they are retreating. I have, plenty. In fact, my primary ships are an active Rattlesnake and active Navy Dominix. In fact, here's a few tips for you:
- Don't pull in all of your drones when only one has aggro. You have skills to increase drone durability for a reason.
- Order your drones to engage the webbers, if one of them has your drone locked down
- Don't use heavy drones for targets that your Gardes can kill in a fraction of the time. Typically 20k and closer is Heavy Drone range.
Quote:Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there. In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
338
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 17:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Quote:Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there. In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue.
I haven't been playing 10 years, and I have had times where my drones won't attack. And if I'm jammed out the just sit. Or I have had a new wave spawn, aggro drones, so drones get pulled, re-deploy but they wont attack because I'm still jammed.
And I honestly don't use heavies all that often specificaly because they take too long, even at 20km. But sometimes sentries become tedious as they completely kill your mobility.
And yea, I only have drone durability at 4. All other drone skills at 5 however(well not all the specs, they are at 4 too). But thanks for the tip.
Either way, same argument still stands. These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others.
Quote:edit:You're making responding to you most difficult by creating so many posts.
I've only made 3 posts to your 7 |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
996
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Not quite. Losing a drone on a drone boat would be like losing a gun on a gun boat: Your dps is down for the rest of the mission or until you dock. I do get what you're saying. I really do. It's the complete removal of a damage system, for drone pilots. Now I need you to understand that there are a number of missions where if non-drone pilots don't manage their aggro correctly, our entire tank and weapon system is removed. Serpentis Blockade? Most of the dampeners are 70+k away and if webbed, closing distance for short-range weaponry can be either difficult or impossible (not all ships have room for drones) while long-range weaponry won't have the tracking to hit the dampeners once you do reach the 4-5k lock range. I do that same mission with sentry drones, and can have similar issues. Long range drones cannot track once the enemy gets close. I switch to Gardes for the close targets, but if Im damped or jammed, I cannot get the drones to attack them. Sometimes the drones will auto-aggro (if a jammer misses a cycle, then hits you again, the drones will auto aggro), but with this change Ill have to keep pulling them in and re-launching them, and then wait for them to auto-aggro, hoping that happens before they catch NPC aggro.
I can have my entire weapon system removed in 2 ways: The drones get destroyed, and by ECM coupled with drone aggro. A gun user can only have it removed one way: ECM.
Blockade is also one of those missions that shows the folly of "Launch drones, go AFK". The drones seem to love triggering additional waves early. Unless you are in a Rattler you can easily pop from those. Also new waves aggro drones. If you go afk you could easily come back to find them all gone.
Testing to see if any of this is really an issue is needed. CCP said it will not be nearly as bad a W-space. I fly a Thanny in W, so I know what sleepers are like (solo: terrible, 3 ships: no issue). http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
33
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others. And that is the point I can agree on.
I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most.
Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.
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Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others. And that is the point I can agree on. I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most. Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.
I think methods could be implemented to compensate for this, and fits can be altered. Perhaps modules or rigs for large boosts to drone durability and/or MWD speed. (this might even bring about some interesting PvP possibilities)
Realistically, though, the AI needs to change because right now the default AI is absolutely pathetic. It's boring, and boring hurts Eve.
This will definitely make the high end DED complexes more interesting. Any ship on the field is going to have to be able to tank those ridiculous citadel torpedoes. Gurista complexes will be particularly... er, interesting, since their torpedo does EM damage. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
338
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:These NPC changes will negatively impact drone ships more than any others. And that is the point I can agree on. I think it brings it more in line with what non-drone pilots have to deal with, but this patch does without a doubt impact drone ships the most. Whether or not you agree with that, well... perhaps to each their own opinion on this one. However, you seem intelligent enough and I'd like you to convo me in-game if you ever want to talk drone mechanics. Always helpful to have people share their experiences, and perhaps show me the drone bug you spoke of.
Well no I really don't.
Drone pilots already have to deal with aggro. With the exception of missions etc that are a single wave, each additional wave can aggro drones. When drones are your primary DPS this means a lot more than to a non-drone ship. For non-drone ships your drones are generally frig support, so if you have to pull them for a new wave, you can still be applying your turret DPS to other targets.
Drone ships already have to deal with ewar as well. Jamming and damps can limit or remove your ability to control your drones. Sure your drones may still be firing (sometimes) but hitting a trigger early can be worse than not firing at all.
webs and tracking disruptions dont really affect drone ships right now. But in some ways for a turret ship this can be used as a tactic to HELP them. Launch light drones and bounce them around NPC's. You not have a greater chance that those drones will take aggro AWAY from your main ship, pulling the ewar off of you. In this way a turret ship could use cheap T1 drones as "chaff" against ewar.
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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
34
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Posted - 2012.09.20 18:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:text wall I don't think you're making an effort to understand what it's like for non-drone users, even with my patient attempts. Cheers, I think we're done here.
Ishen Vilone wrote: Perhaps modules or rigs for large boosts to drone durability and/or MWD speed. (this might even bring about some interesting PvP possibilities) I agree with most of your content, and thought you might enjoy knowing that the module Drone Navigation Comuputer exists, and with two of them can nearly double the MWD speed of heavy drones (and almost triple medium and light drones).
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Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
34
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote: I agree with most of your content, and thought you might enjoy knowing that the module Drone Navigation Comuputer exists, and with two of them can nearly double the MWD speed of heavy drones (and almost triple medium and light drones).
Yeah, I was thinking larger boosts or even a mod that combines both bonuses. (and rig additions) For example, the drone speed rig is like a 10% bonus... not terribly helpful. |
GreenSeed
85
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
horrible changes, really.
i can understand buffing plex ai, but lvl4s? currently lvl4s have crap payouts, crap loot, crap salvage and are boring as hell. yet its the only way to get standing with corps besides midless courrier missions.
the real question is why? why doing it? how does having NPCs swich targets affect people blitzing on machariels or nightmares? no change at all. how does it affect noobs in dominixes? how does it affect a small fleet of noobs doing lvl4s?
it only makes an already crappy and boring "job" even crappier.
we know why they are doing this, its becuse plex farming, so why changing lvl4s? lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed, and any change of this sort only affects newbs and people who arent familiar with the game. so why doing it?
its really beyond me, specially on a game like eve that should at least pretend to be welcoming to new players. if when i started years ago i would have to face one of this new lvl4s flying my trusty old brutix with 1600plates (LOL) and some other newbie from my corp flying a thorax with remote reps i would just call it quits. and yeah, that did happen, and it was fun.
and yeah, if you dont believe me just go to any lvl3 or lvl4 agent and scan some of the 4 month old characters and youll see why this is bad. this game is really complicated already even when facing mindless ai, notions of active tanking, effective reps, resistances vs buffer, speedtank - sigtank, are really hard to explain or see for oneself. if CCP expects newbs to suddenly figure them out while under fire, they are wrong.
let one newb sit on a dual rep dominix playing "tank" while some other dude flyes around in a frigate have their fun please, and buff only the plex ai. this will only make it harder for new players to get into the game. specially now that the "gamers" get into new games in groups of friends irl or from other game, you can see this on any new or old title.
lvl5s are the ones that need a buff in difficulty and a far greater one in payout. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
341
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:text wall I don't think you're making an effort to understand what it's like for non-drone users, even with my patient attempts. Cheers, I think we're done here.
I don't have to make an effort to understand non-drone ships. I fly them as well. In fact I had to pretty much give up my drone ways when I moved into WH life, due to this type of NPC AI. (yes I know the new NPC ai wont be as anti drone as sleepers but stil...)
What I am trying to convey is that it's is inaccurate to portray the scenario that drone ships are somehow immune to NPC ewar effects. But you ignored all of that which I wrote again so I won't repeat it.
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Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
34
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Posted - 2012.09.20 18:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP).
Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat.
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
169
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.
Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.
Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.
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The Renner
Canadian Operations Yulai Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
So instead of 1 tank 1 dps, it will take 2 tanks to slowly grind down highend nullsec plexes? Should raise prices on deadspace loot I suppose. |
Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.
Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.
Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.
Screwed? Their missions are being made less boring, as you just said. That's the opposite of being screwed. |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
252
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 19:45:00 -
[31] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:This seems to me to be one of those patches to fight AFK farming. I have seen it done in many games before.
Usually the farmers end up finding a way around it and it only serves to make the game harder for normal players.
Personally I welcome the change as it will make missions a little less boring. But what about all the new players that can barely complete level 4 missions as it is? They get screwed just so they can stop a few AFK drone boat farmers? If this AI change also make your own drones smarter than I could support it. However making changes that negatively affect new players while having little to no effect on veteran players will not help EVE to grow.
yep, ccp tempting the Gods of Unintended Consequences yet again lol.
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Melina Lin
Universal Frog
38
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ishen Villone wrote:Screwed? Their missions are being made less boring, as you just said. That's the opposite of being screwed.
They are not changing the missions, they are as mind numbingly boring as ever. If you on the other hand find buying three new drones exciting...
It'll start to get exciting if NPC battleships would actually do 1000DPS each. Add heavy neuts for good measure and elite frigs which TD and neut you like a Sentinel does.
THAT would get exciting rather quickly. |
stoicfaux
1664
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 21:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
Biggest risk for non-drone boats is losing your light drones to NPC drone hate and getting perma-webbed/scrammed by NPC frigates.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
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Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
29
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Posted - 2012.09.20 22:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
Losing drones is the same as using ammo for gun/missile users.
If you are using drone boats you will have multiple flights of drones the their drone bays are usually multiple time the size of the bandwidth.
if i'm in my arbi (which I have always loved :) ) running sites in low sec (poor pirate here!) and I lose a drone I don't cry about it I just launch another one and rack it up to 'ammo cost'.
All the ships that use drones as a primary DPS source can field multiple flights of the same drone. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |
GreenSeed
85
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 03:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:GreenSeed wrote:lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP). Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat. i dont think you have an idea of what the plex exploit is. what you are talking about requires you sitting at the pc and doing something, the plex farm would work while 100% afk. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
39
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 04:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Syn Fatelyng wrote:GreenSeed wrote:lvl4s dont respawn and CANT be farmed Mission farming is actually very common. Setup 5-6 agents with the Big Missions (World's Collide, Dread Scarlet, etc) and so long as you don't kill the trigger for each mission it will fully respawn after DT. Easy ISK, and it's something I used to do at 70-80m an hour (bounty+reward+salvage+loot+lp@900ISK/LP). Then, just before the mission fails (7 day timer), you turn them in and repeat. i dont think you have an idea of what the plex exploit is. what you are talking about requires you sitting at the pc and doing something, the plex farm would work while 100% afk. I was misinformed then. Thank you for clarifying. |
Bing Khagah
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 04:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Using drones is the same as using ammo for gun/missile users. If you are using drone boats you may have multiple flights of the exact same drone, normally, though, the different flights have different purposes and are therefore not greatly interchangable - a couple of spares of a couple of types though is more probable , bays are usually multiple time the size of the bandwidth. All the ships that use drones as a primary DPS source can field multiple flights of the same drone - if they give up dynamic response flight setups - who needs gardes when I can have 10 5-drone hobgoblin flights!
Fixed.
Taoist Dragon wrote: if i'm in my arbi (which I have always loved :) ) running sites in low sec (poor pirate here!) and I lose a drone I don't cry about it I just launch another one and rack it up to 'ammo cost'.
Wouldn't it be great if the AI modifications also included NPCs treating all primary weapons system as disposable? Just fit another one and rack it up to 'weapon system cost' And eh. This'll make things interesting. I do hope pilots decide to willingly sacrifice their ecm/web/etc ohsit saviours. |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
749
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 10:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;) CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
|
Hav0cide
Shadow Proclamation.
6
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 10:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Well this will make the 'maze' and a few other 1010's very interesting. Your gonna need a logi to rep the logi. Just means more team work. :) |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
216
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 10:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
In all honesty it's a huge area that does need adjustments... Even new players can easily handle NPC's behaving smarter, doing mroe dps and tanking better. Reducing NPC groups to half their numbers with double HP/DPS/Bounty and perhaps even adjust bounty payments to something similar to taking out incursion sites would really enrich EVE for almost everybody.
Pinky |
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Lord Okinaba
25
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...
So RIP Drones Ships . You assume I don't active play my 960 dps Rattlesnake. Or my 1.2k dps Navy Dominix. I understand and am aware of AFK drone boats being hit by this. But not all drone boats, and not all drone pilots are afk pilots.
First off, I don't believe there are fully AFK Domi pilots out there, unless they're running low level mission with them. Going fully AFK in a L4 isn't feasible, even with the current AI. Semi AFK, maybe.
I actively run run missions in a Navy Domi and find that at the moment I do far too much drone juggling. I dread to think what it will be like after the new AI has been implemented.
Also 1.2k DPS from your Navy Domi? Fit please. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
39
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lord Okinaba wrote:Also 1.2k DPS from your Navy Domi? Fit please. Standard 3x DDA, 3x Mag Field(faction), 425mms (faction AM, dirt cheap with rail RoF). Shield tanked. 5x Gardes and no need for sentry rigs. Throw on gun and shield implants as needed.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
253
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 13:00:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hav0cide wrote:Well this will make the 'maze' and a few other 1010's very interesting. Your gonna need a logi to rep the logi. Just means more team work. :)
You know of a logistics ship that can tank the Torp (while probably webbed) in the last room of the Maze? I'd love to see it, that is if it existed at all, which it doesn't.
Plenty of people in the blog comments thread (including myself) have repeatedly warned the DEVs of the potential for this change to utterly break High End DED/Exploration sites.
IMO They either need to damp down the citadel torps in those plexes (or remove them altogether to be replaced by more npc ships or gun-turrets) or keep the npcs/structures that fire the torps under the current AI scheme (where they don't switch aggro at all).
Once they fix the Citadel Torp issue, i have no other concerns. Yea, the change will mean different approaches to high end plexes, maybe even having to "bring friends" to what for the last few years has been basically "solo" content (I do every 10/10 and high end exept the blood raider one by dual boxing Machariel and Tengu). That is basically a nerf, but it's all good, it just means plex loot will be more profitable.
|
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
873
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 14:35:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)
I'm sure that'll be interesting.
So you're saying we'll have Neuting, Webbing, Scramming all on one ship? From frigates to battleships?
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
TriadSte
IronPig Sev3rance
111
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 16:07:00 -
[45] - Quote
People just simply run 2 tengus with 1 large RR each and deadspace hardeners
That is what you call
Winning
Even after the HML nerf it will put out 450 DPS per ship so 900 DPS in a ded plex aint too bad.
|
Ishen Villone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
35
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 16:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
TriadSte wrote:People just simply run 2 tengus with 1 large RR each and deadspace hardeners
That is what you call
Winning
Even after the HML nerf it will put out 450 DPS per ship so 900 DPS in a ded plex aint too bad.
Tengus are a challenge to harden for the maze, as the torpedo is EM but you also need substantial kinetic and thermal resists for the rest of the guristas. Once you're up to speed it's not bad, but the first couple minutes while you swat all the web frigates can get hairy.
I'll probably upgrade my Tengus to X-type hardeners. Not like they're in short supply for a maze runner! |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
316
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 17:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time Selective Pressure [FOVRA] is now recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1797934#post1797934 |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
751
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 20:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time
Thing is, it's not really the programmers who are dealing with the NPC AI... it's the content designers, and not even the entire content team. For example, I am working on FW not NPC AI CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
896
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 22:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time
NPC AI is more important as you think. If we would be able to use pvp fitts for pve eve would be a much better place a eve-style bounty system https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Tarikla
Projet Aurora
30
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 00:07:00 -
[50] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)
Is this only a graphic thingy ? Like, no more Rail on a NPC Rattlesnake hull (kind of hilarious i must say) ? Or does that mean also a change in their DPS, Ewar ability, ect ? |
|
stoicfaux
1670
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 01:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:My thoughts are there are too many broken items in Eve for CCP to be wasting time with NPC AI at this point in time NPC AI is more important as you think. If we would be able to use pvp fitts for pve eve would be a much better place
Never fear, CCP is ...err I mean it's in the works: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688
CCP FoxFour wrote: Our ultimate goal is that PvP and PvE fits should be the same and a lot of the thought process should be the same. That is... a long way off though.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
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Belthazor4011
Battle BV I Know Right
52
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 01:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
This is just a slap in the face for drone users. Anyone that doesnt rely on their drones for DPS isnt gonna notice this change at all. Seriously this has 0 impact on someone not using drones...
|
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 03:12:00 -
[53] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Sometimes they just plain stop and sit there. In ten years, this has never happened to me. My drone settings are aggressive, focus fired, and so long as something is hitting me or them there's zero issue.[/quote]
In those ten years you've never ever attempted Worlds Collidev. Guristas Pirates & Serpentis, right? Because it's fairly common for the Serpentis rats to drop aggro en-masse and either target your drones mid-fight or continue attacking you while your drones go AFK.
There are a few other circumstances where certain drones (looking at Sentries here) will focus fire on a frigate which they'll never hit, ignoring the larger ships they could easily kill, but that's easily corrected if you're actively paying attention to what your drones are hitting. |
Syn Fatelyng
Redanni
41
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 05:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
Adigard wrote:In those ten years you've never attempted Worlds Collidev. Guristas Pirates & Serpentis, right? Because it's fairly common for the Serpentis rats in the first room to drop aggro en-masse and either target your drones mid-fight or continue attacking you while your drones go AFK. My primary mission hub is with Serpentis, and what you are describing has never occurred to me.Quote:Just a minor nit-pick... but how on earth are you farming LP on a mission you turn in once a week? Also, how much travelling are you doing each day to hit those 6 missions? It's not like agents don't offer a lot of scut missions for each one of the worthwhile ones. So apparently you're declining 5-10 missions per agent x 5 agents and repairing your faction by completing one worthwhile mission per agent per week? Or are you chain-completing some of those worthless missions x5 agents until each agent offers you one of a very small and select pool of valuable missions that's actually worth repeating. I do not have any answers for your questions, I'm afraid. I answered the initial question as a means of showing that quite a few people do farm missions in that manner. However, I only know the answers via proxy. I am not a mission farmer myself (sleeper income).
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1263
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 06:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
This fixes one of the stupidest mechanics of EVE Online, and has been on my short list of dream fixes since I started playing-
"Tank & DPS" ships. It's hilariously ******** that you drop a tanking ship to a site, and then the rats just keep shooting it, and neglect all the other ships that are actually killing them. Props to CCP for fixing this!
This also means that a PVEr is not automatically worse off in case someone jumps you while running a site. In w-space attackers have to account for the sleepers, which makes it more interesting and challenging to everybody.
As what comes to drones getting aggro, it's a non-issue, especially if it's even milder than in wormholes. I've soloed C 1-3 anoms and sites in drone ships and it's perfectly doable. Yes, you have to be alert, but that's why I play, to have an immersive and involving experience. I've never worried about waiting for aggro before dropping drones, when running k-space plexes in Ishtar I always drop sentries right away, and start one-shotting frigs. By the time the poor rats realize they are getting obliterated and start locking my drones, I've done a lot of damage. Then recall them, drop again.
HP bonused drones don't instapop.
Drones today are very powerful for their raw dps, range, tracking and damage application, this change prevents drones from becoming completely OP compared to other setups in PVE. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Lord Leftfield
The Society Calyxes
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 10:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
In many ways I personally welcome this change. Having trouble staying awake in missions and anomolies these days, this certanly will give it more longviaty. But on the other side, double nerf will sit ill with parts of the community. The rumored missile nerf and now this, a droneboat "nerf". Migth be to much for some |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
49
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 18:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
Guess I won't be bringing in low-SP friends in their terribad fits into Lv4s while I tank everything in a Rattlesnake, just for giggles. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
42
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 16:21:00 -
[58] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)
This is a good thing.
but will you be doing them as supertanky pve fits, or superganky pvp fits :D |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
543
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 18:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually.
I use drone ships in both wormholes and incursions without losing any.
Glad you did your research before posting. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 23:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
After this change, will sentries be far preferable to heavies, given that sentries can be recalled instantly, while heavies have to MWD directly away from the rats back to your ship, probably getting popped in the process? |
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Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1268
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 05:03:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 11:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. Does that include nullsec ratting/anomalies, or were they only preferred for missions? |
bufnitza calatoare
Snap Crackle Pop. AAA Citizens
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 13:49:00 -
[63] - Quote
Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. Does that include nullsec ratting/anomalies, or were they only preferred for missions?
I use them in forsaken hubs. |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 15:33:00 -
[64] - Quote
bufnitza calatoare wrote:Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. Does that include nullsec ratting/anomalies, or were they only preferred for missions? I use them in forsaken hubs.
Awesome, thanks. I've been doing those in a Myrmidon with Hammerhead IIs while saving up/training up to use the Domi. With the medium drones, the battleships and elite cruisers can take a while to pop, so I'm looking forward to getting into the Dominix. Too bad I already wasted 3 days training Heavy Drones V, but I'll still train it at some point anyway, so at least it isn't totally wasted. |
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 15:34:00 -
[65] - Quote
If this is going to happen I really think the component cost of T2 drones needs to be reduced to compensate, so drones could be treated more like ammo.
Also drone AI could be improved. I'd like to see drones attack in priority of: - same sized enemies (e.g. medium drones attack cruisers first) - then highest dps targets first after that. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
260
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 15:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chimpy B wrote:If this is going to happen I really think the component cost of T2 drones needs to be reduced to compensate, so drones could be treated more like ammo.
Also drone AI could be improved. I'd like to see drones attack in priority of: - same sized enemies (e.g. medium drones attack cruisers first) - then highest dps targets first after that.
I wish we had more drone command options to like "return to drone bay if drone gets to half shields" and such.
The current drone interface is just beyond tedious, which is why I tend to do anomalies without drones (thank god for FoF missiles lol).
|
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
13
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 16:30:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Chimpy B wrote:If this is going to happen I really think the component cost of T2 drones needs to be reduced to compensate, so drones could be treated more like ammo.
Also drone AI could be improved. I'd like to see drones attack in priority of: - same sized enemies (e.g. medium drones attack cruisers first) - then highest dps targets first after that. I wish we had more drone command options to like "return to drone bay if drone gets to half shields" and such. The current drone interface is just beyond tedious, which is why I tend to do anomalies without drones (thank god for FoF missiles lol). Yeah that would be nice, but might be considered too "easy mode" and also the interface might get too complicated for new players.
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
350
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 17:06:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Chimpy B wrote:If this is going to happen I really think the component cost of T2 drones needs to be reduced to compensate, so drones could be treated more like ammo.
Also drone AI could be improved. I'd like to see drones attack in priority of: - same sized enemies (e.g. medium drones attack cruisers first) - then highest dps targets first after that. I wish we had more drone command options to like "return to drone bay if drone gets to half shields" and such. The current drone interface is just beyond tedious, which is why I tend to do anomalies without drones (thank god for FoF missiles lol).
I would just be happy to have some early warning. Like a warning alarm when my drones are getting yellow boxed, so I dont have to wait until they are taking damage to react, and then wait for their lag time responding etc etc. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 23:43:00 -
[69] - Quote
Time to train up drone durability 5
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1270
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 15:28:00 -
[70] - Quote
Allophyl wrote:bufnitza calatoare wrote:Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. Does that include nullsec ratting/anomalies, or were they only preferred for missions? I use them in forsaken hubs. Awesome, thanks. I've been doing those in a Myrmidon with Hammerhead IIs while saving up/training up to use the Domi. With the medium drones, the battleships and elite cruisers can take a while to pop, so I'm looking forward to getting into the Dominix. Too bad I already wasted 3 days training Heavy Drones V, but I'll still train it at some point anyway, so at least it isn't totally wasted.
Especially anoms and exploration, I haven't spent much time missioning. I'd consider the Ishtar for null ratting, you will appreciate it's agility when you need to leave in a hurry, but Dominix is a boss as well.
Heavy Drones SP are certainly not wasted, don't worry! They are mobile, which is handy in some situations. Sentries just do instant damage over long ranges with very good tracking (think of long-range battleship guns with short-range gun tracking). Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
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Veritas Luxmea
Cosmo Paladins Tribal Band
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 23:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
I currently use 2 accounts to dual-box 10/10s in Blood Raider nullsec (and all other plexes below 10/10, obviously). My setup is a tank and a DPS. Each is trained and fitted for its own role, in a way my tank doesn't do any DPS, and my DPS doesn't tank a flying chicken coming it's direction.
Target changing means the end of Plexing for me.
Since plexing is one of the things I do the most in EVE, I wonder if it will break my will to play.
It remains to be seen. |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 23:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)
While this and the whole "improving the AI to make rats more like players" sounds like a nice goal on paper, in reality there is a huge problem with it. There's a major difference between PvP and PvE: PvP costs money. PvE is used as a way to make money. In PvP you *expect* to lose your ship, while in PvE, losing ships at anything near the rate you do in PvP will make it completely unsustainable and make it impossible to make a profit except with large gangs. Granted, PvE should still carry *some* risk, but when you start giving every rat a point, web and prop mod and bring their ships in line with player ships, *and* give the player absolutely no way of controlling aggro, the risk suddenly goes through the roof, making the reward no longer worth it, and making the curve for new players orders of magnitude steeper - and not only that, but it will absolutely kill variety in fits, since every single player will have to fit for both tank and dps - goodbye specialized ships. |
Veritas Luxmea
Cosmo Paladins Tribal Band
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 00:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Here! Let's change something that's worked well for nearly 10 years! |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 00:22:00 -
[74] - Quote
Allophyl wrote: ...but when you start giving every rat a point, web and prop mod and bring their ships in line with player ships, *and* give the player absolutely no way of controlling aggro, the risk suddenly goes through the roof, making the reward no longer worth it, and making the curve for new players orders of magnitude steeper - and not only that, but it will absolutely kill variety in fits, since every single player will have to fit for both tank and dps - goodbye specialized ships.
Ultimately we'll have rat cruiser's spider tanking all the incoming damage... and they'll still be worth 150k ISK.
Really I think the people hoping for rat AI / ship fittings to be equal to player's forget that the average L4 mission has 40+ rats, very few of which are actually worth killing for their ISK rewards. |
Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 01:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
My question would be ... Does this also affect the "AI" of gate guns? |
Hyrath Rotineque
EXTERMINATUS. Nulli Secunda
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 04:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Veritas Luxmea wrote:Here! Let's change something that's worked well for nearly 10 years! Stop complaining and just get 2 Marauders with 1 energy transfer and 2 reps. Problems solved. |
bufnitza calatoare
Snap Crackle Pop. AAA Citizens
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 05:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
imo and as other have said before me. tot he solo player it will have neg effect if at all.
but to those that use a logistics alt it will have more noticeable effect.
otherwise its eve online as usual. |
bufnitza calatoare
Snap Crackle Pop. AAA Citizens
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 05:13:00 -
[78] - Quote
Veritas Luxmea wrote:Here! Let's change something that's worked well for nearly 10 years!
not going to worry me in the slightest. iw ill still make 35+m per tick.
well if you cant handle the change feel free to contract me everything you own and I will give you an account name to transfer your char/s to.
have a good one |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1271
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 05:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
Veritas Luxmea wrote:I currently use 2 accounts to dual-box 10/10s in Blood Raider nullsec (and all other plexes below 10/10, obviously). My setup is a tank and a DPS. Each is trained and fitted for its own role, in a way my tank doesn't do any DPS, and my DPS doesn't tank a flying chicken coming it's direction.
Target changing means the end of Plexing for me.
Since plexing is one of the things I do the most in EVE, I wonder if it will break my will to play.
It remains to be seen.
How about revisiting your setup to accommodate for these changes instead?
Don't you think the current AI is ridiculously idiotic- they keep shooting the same ship they can't break, while the clearly superior threat keeps popping them left and right?
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 11:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Roime wrote: Don't you think the current AI is ridiculously idiotic- they keep shooting the same ship they can't break, while the clearly superior threat keeps popping them left and right?
Actually what I think it ridiculously idiotic is changing something that's worked perfectly for damn near a decade for absolutely no immediate gain (unless you benefit from one of the raft of unintended consequences this is going to bring) other than being able to add a little blurb on the patch notes.
Also, there's no actual proof that what you're assuming, is actually how they work... of course the test servers mysteriously vanished early on and won't be back until this weekend, so who knows. |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1272
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 12:18:00 -
[81] - Quote
It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 12:20:00 -
[82] - Quote
Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game? |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
376
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 14:47:00 -
[83] - Quote
i'll just buy 10000 T1 drones and never ever recover them. problem solved.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 15:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game?
Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Roime wrote:Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game? Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something. Is this a troll, or are you just that dense and incapable of actually reading? Having a way to control a mob's aggro is essential for group PvE to work, otherwise you have squishy dps players/ships dying all the time and leaving the tanks without enough dps to kill the mobs, and anything beyond solo PvE becomes unfun, or else EVERYBODY is forced in to the same, identical cookie-cutter role. In Eve, rather than having skills to control aggro, we're able to exploit its AI. YES, it is unrealistic, but so is the mechanic in other MMOs, and since when do we play MMOs for their realism? Fun > Realism. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
362
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Ishen Villone wrote: Realistically, though, the AI needs to change because right now the default AI is absolutely pathetic. It's boring, and boring hurts Eve. This will definitely make the high end DED complexes more interesting. Any ship on the field is going to have to be able to tank those ridiculous citadel torpedoes. Gurista complexes will be particularly... er, interesting, since their torpedo does EM damage.
+10 on this +100 on this
The missions are too much of a cakewalk with the predictable current AI. Incursion AI can still surprise at times & although it does become a grind they often can become challenging when someone DC's or screws something up. I assume the sleeper AI is the same.
I think it is far FAR BETTER to improve the AI to reduce the mission/rat/anom/complex ISK faucets then to have to resort to the 10% across the board bounty reductions that CCP Soundwave was putting forth during his TenTonHammer interview earlier this year.
I see this as a good step and hopefully one of many towards improving Eve's PvE. Nostalgie ist die Faehigkeit, darueber zu trauern, dass es nicht mehr so ist, wie es frueher nicht gewesen ist. -- Manfred Rommel-á |
Nikolai Dostoyevski
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
My thoughts:
Instead of people running a tank and dps for lvl 4 missions, you're just now going to see the same thing you saw in wormholes - RR'ing ships that orbit each other. My dominix/dps combo will now become RR domi/domi sentry drone.. Yawn. |
Chimpy B
The Philosophy Of Two
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 20:11:00 -
[88] - Quote
I foresee the market cost of deadspace modules is going to go up :p |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 20:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
This isn't fixing it, it's breaking it more. Why do you think every single MMO out there has a way to control a mob's aggro? Do you seriously think that taking that ability away is going to be good for the game? Do you actually claim that wh PVE and Incursions are bad for the game, because they are not like other MMOs? Or something. Is this a troll, or are you just that dense and incapable of actually reading? Having a way to control a mob's aggro is essential for group PvE to work, otherwise you have squishy dps players/ships dying all the time and leaving the tanks without enough dps to kill the mobs, and anything beyond solo PvE becomes unfun, or else EVERYBODY is forced in to the same, identical cookie-cutter role. In Eve, rather than having skills to control aggro, we're able to exploit its AI. YES, it is unrealistic, but so is the mechanic in other MMOs, and since when do we play MMOs for their realism? Fun > Realism.
I do only group PVE in EVE, against rats that already have this improved AI.
Take your dumb back to wow, while we have fun with remote repair.
Oh and this PVE is even more fun because it happens in -1.0 space with very limited means to control player aggro. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Allophyl
Psycho Clowns The Jagged Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 20:54:00 -
[90] - Quote
Roime wrote:Take your dumb back to wow. Not only have I never even touched wow, aggro-control mechanics have existed since the days of MUDs, many of which, if you want this to be a "EVE is so hardcore and so am I hurr durr go back to wow" pissing contest, were far less forgiving than Eve is. Enjoy your cookie-cutter fits. |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
306
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 20:56:00 -
[91] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Testing to see if any of this is really an issue is needed. CCP said it will not be nearly as bad a W-space. I fly a Thanny in W, so I know what sleepers are like (solo: terrible, 3 ships: no issue).
And you actually BELIEVE the devs???
Just like Incursions were going to suffer a slight nerf, and datacore income was only going to be halved, and meta 4 drops were not going to be increased.....yeah, I have total faith in what CCP says. This is a complete disaster for drone boat operators, right across the board.
But as I posted on GD, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop when the null sec plexers scream blue murder in the high end plexes (and they rightly should), so Fox Four will fix it for null by introducing a separate slider for null sec so the AI target switching is a bare minimum, while high sec is cranked right up. |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 22:37:00 -
[92] - Quote
Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
ITT someone is actually silly enough to believe that mission rats are worth the same amount of ISK at the end of the day as incursion and WH rats.
wow. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
565
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 02:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
Roime wrote:This fixes one of the stupidest mechanics of EVE Online, and has been on my short list of dream fixes since I started playing-
"Tank & DPS" ships. It's hilariously ******** that you drop a tanking ship to a site, and then the rats just keep shooting it, and neglect all the other ships that are actually killing them. Props to CCP for fixing this!
This also means that a PVEr is not automatically worse off in case someone jumps you while running a site. In w-space attackers have to account for the sleepers, which makes it more interesting and challenging to everybody.
As what comes to drones getting aggro, it's a non-issue, especially if it's even milder than in wormholes. I've soloed C 1-3 anoms and sites in drone ships and it's perfectly doable. Yes, you have to be alert, but that's why I play, to have an immersive and involving experience. I've never worried about waiting for aggro before dropping drones, when running k-space plexes in Ishtar I always drop sentries right away, and start one-shotting frigs. By the time the poor rats realize they are getting obliterated and start locking my drones, I've done a lot of damage. Then recall them, drop again.
HP bonused drones don't instapop.
Drones today are very powerful for their raw dps, range, tracking and damage application, this change prevents drones from becoming completely OP compared to other setups in PVE.
It means is this;
The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.
So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP. We now return you to your regularly scheduled **** poast. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 04:40:00 -
[94] - Quote
Adigard wrote:Roime wrote:It hasn't worked perfectly for a decade. It's been ridiculous, broken and exploitable for nearly a decade, now they finally fix it.
Sleeper & Incursion Sansha AI, which is what the new AI is based on, is just more fun and challenging than vanilla empire PVE, now you can enjoy it too :)
ITT someone is actually silly enough to believe that mission rats are worth the same amount of ISK at the end of the day as incursion and WH rats. wow.
ITT someone actually stupid enough to believe that the deciding factor in a game is virtual currency.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 04:49:00 -
[95] - Quote
Allophyl wrote:Roime wrote:Take your dumb back to wow. Not only have I never even touched wow, aggro-control mechanics have existed since the days of MUDs, many of which, if you want this to be a "EVE is so hardcore and so am I hurr durr go back to wow" pissing contest, were far less forgiving than Eve is. Enjoy your cookie-cutter fits.
My point is that this aggro-switching rat AI already exists in EVE, and most people agree it's more fun than the idiot version.
Cookie-cutter? Unlike the current cap-stable L4 fits? Empire AFK mission running, the pinnacle of innovation. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 04:54:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
It means is this;
The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.
So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.
That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
306
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 05:19:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. I use drone ships in both wormholes and incursions without losing any. Glad you did your research before posting.
Yes, I believe you. I must go now, Scarlett Johansson is about to give me my rubdown. I believe my statement has as much validity as yours. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
306
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 05:19:00 -
[98] - Quote
Roime wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
It means is this;
The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.
So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.
That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day.
Yes, it is so much fun watching your drones evaporate and watch your ISK/ hour reduced to nil. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1274
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 05:39:00 -
[99] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Roime wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:
It means is this;
The Eve economy is ****** and CCP wants more PvP deaths. They all but stated this in their QEN's. As a matter of fact they did state it, just without the F word.
So Sleepers, Incursion Sanshas, and now mission boats will have fits that induce a more PvP like setup from the player, in an effort to get them to PvP.
That is a good motive, PvP is fun and CCP wants their customers to have as much fun as possible, instead of AFK-grinding or botting all day. Yes, it is so much fun watching your drones evaporate and watch your ISK/ hour reduced to nil.
They don't evaporate, and I'm referring to the full version of the new AI, not the toned down one empire rats get. You can use solo drone ships in C3 and below just FYI.
I fly a sentry Domi in wh PVE, it's an awesome ship and centerpiece of our C3 farming concept. I've lost exactly one Garde during the past seven months, and I haven't ruled out the possibility that one of us shot it by accident.
All this nerfs is AFK drone farming. Which is really good for the game, economy and the fun factor.
Sky is not falling, this is a good change. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 11:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
Roime wrote:My point is that this aggro-switching rat AI already exists in EVE, and most people agree it's more fun than the idiot version.
Because the rewards in a single L4 mission are equal to the rewards in a single C3 WH site...
the risks should be the same?
the difficulty should be the same?
Oh wait... the rewards aren't the same at all, or did CCP add ribbons to the high-sec salvage loot pool when I wasn't looking? |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1276
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 11:31:00 -
[101] - Quote
Oh just forget it.
You quote a part of my post that explicitly talks about FUN, and you talk about risk/reward.
And fwiw, this AI change does not increase the risk of your dear L4s at all.
RIsk in WH PVE comes from the higher DPS of rats, and mostly from other players, and from the fact that might not get any rewards at all (yes, sometimes a Noctis dies) and that is the basis of higher rewards.
Dev Blog wrote: Why are we doing this:
There are plenty of reasons for doing this. Trying to bring everything up to date, to stop maintaining old code, to give us new options for what we can do in missions, to try and close some exploits, to attempt to make the PvE more engaging, and more.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
310
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 20:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both.
A complete lie. |
LiquidDreams
Legion of Anarchy
2
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 21:46:00 -
[103] - Quote
im thinking
new eve players will get even more problems
and goodbye drones ! ehhw ! |
Hash Arzi
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 02:14:00 -
[104] - Quote
This change would simply kill drone boats. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
310
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 03:34:00 -
[105] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Roime wrote:Sentries have always been preferred choice for PVE, but ideally you would have both. A complete lie. This comment brings to question your expertise on the matter |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1278
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 08:15:00 -
[106] - Quote
Hash Arzi wrote:This change would simply kill drone boats.
Nope, it doesn't affect the tank of drone boats at all.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Kara Vix
Sanford and Son Salvage Peregrine Nation
32
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 09:51:00 -
[107] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Tarikla wrote:RIP Drones Ship. Except for that, not much changes. NPC will still have fail-fits and no real ewar except for those missions like The Blockade, so ... Not much change here actually. All new NPCs I create will have player like fits and hopefully one day I will have time to go over the older NPCs.. this is a lot of work though ;)
You have the coolest job ever, I am jealous. |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 11:07:00 -
[108] - Quote
While this all sounds so well and good, I wonder what CCP is going to do to the petitions where someone has lost their drones and is scrambled in a mission by an NPC or two (which can't possibly kill them), and are stuck there until the next dt.
Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. Every "change" to missions has nerfed them and infuriated mission runners. Give it up, now.
The average mission runner doesn't read these forums, nor does he really want to be 'challenged'. Missions (and other forms of PvE are mostly 'the grind' necessary to fund PvP activities, so why on earth are you thinking of making 'the grind' harder?
You want to make PvE more like PvP? Guess what, not many people jump into a battleship and try to solo 30 to 50 other people in PvP. So what are missions going to become? Jump into a battleship and try to solo 2 to 5 NPC's (hopefully they are faction fit so they have a chance of dropping something)? And use this to fund PvP? Are we going to have to fit a point to hold the NPC's? Will we have to probe them down if they jump away? Or will this end up really like PvP where I have to bring a bigger blob to counteract the NPC blob. - You, really sounds like fun to me..... |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 11:17:00 -
[109] - Quote
Veryez wrote:You want to make PvE more like PvP? Guess what, not many people jump into a battleship and try to solo 30 to 50 other people in PvP. So what are missions going to become? Jump into a battleship and try to solo 2 to 5 NPC's (hopefully they are faction fit so they have a chance of dropping something)? And use this to fund PvP? Are we going to have to fit a point to hold the NPC's? Will we have to probe them down if they jump away? Or will this end up really like PvP where I have to bring a bigger blob to counteract the NPC blob. - You, really sounds like fun to me.....
Enough people in this game either fund everything via PLEX purchase, or living off the null faucet. There is a certain drive to see that exact set of events happen. |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
369
|
Posted - 2012.09.30 03:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Veryez wrote: Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. .
None of the CSM's representing HI SEC is HI SEC's fault for voter apathy for the most part. If we as the majoriy of EVE don't vote it is our fault. I'd perfer the CSM being more representative with electoral districts but any system that tried to base its its reps from where they 'appear' to be from probably would be highly susceptableto gaming.
I don't think none of the CCP DEVs lives inHI SEC but itdoes often appear to be true and I believe a majoriy are NULL or WH residents . I am positive they do careabout HI SEC though I'm sure thegame designers such as CCP Afinity do read these posts here. That said Iknow it is tuff to notbe overly negitive ( I'm oftenguilty of that too ) but stating that improved AIs as being anegitive just is silly...
I believe making mission AI's in the long run will improve the game and hope Incursion AI's ( whom I fight daily) in the future too become smarter even though in the long run my ISK generation would be reduced; why? because I enjoy the challenge of a goodfight in PvE Nostalgie ist die Faehigkeit, darueber zu trauern, dass es nicht mehr so ist, wie es frueher nicht gewesen ist. -- Manfred Rommel-á |
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1284
|
Posted - 2012.09.30 07:13:00 -
[111] - Quote
Veryez wrote:While this all sounds so well and good, I wonder what CCP is going to do to the petitions where someone has lost their drones and is scrambled in a mission by an NPC or two (which can't possibly kill them), and are stuck there until the next dt.
Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. Every "change" to missions has nerfed them and infuriated mission runners. Give it up, now.
The average mission runner doesn't read these forums, nor does he really want to be 'challenged'. Missions (and other forms of PvE are mostly 'the grind' necessary to fund PvP activities, so why on earth are you thinking of making 'the grind' harder?
You want to make PvE more like PvP? Guess what, not many people jump into a battleship and try to solo 30 to 50 other people in PvP. So what are missions going to become? Jump into a battleship and try to solo 2 to 5 NPC's (hopefully they are faction fit so they have a chance of dropping something)? And use this to fund PvP? Are we going to have to fit a point to hold the NPC's? Will we have to probe them down if they jump away? Or will this end up really like PvP where I have to bring a bigger blob to counteract the NPC blob. - You, really sounds like fun to me.....
Most people move out of hisec because it is mindnumbingly boring and offers no challenge.
Yes, PVE where the rats are harder and with better AI is in fact more fun. And I play games for fun, not to get piles of virtual currency.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1284
|
Posted - 2012.09.30 07:16:00 -
[112] - Quote
I've actually like two DN posts already :D
In this case the man knows what he's talking about. Better AI, harder sites, = more fun. Not forgetting teamwork, which is what MMOs are all about. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
272
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 19:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1990692#post1990692
Null sec explorers (especially those with experience with the MAZE), does this strike anyone else as odd? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
316
|
Posted - 2012.10.01 19:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1990692#post1990692
Null sec explorers (especially those with experience with the MAZE), does this strike anyone else as odd?
Under the old conditions, what the dev did is impossible.
Under the new conditions, who knows?
But according to the other posts by the dev in the same thread, it is irrelevant, since null sec will be taken care of by nerfing the plex damage or some other method. But you already know that, because you have posted in that thread.
What this likely will end up being is a buff to null sec plex income, while at the same time satisfying the requirements of the null sec zealots to hugely damage high sec. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
49
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 11:32:00 -
[115] - Quote
Syn Fatelyng wrote:Tarikla wrote:You assume Drones Ship are played in an active fashion ... it's not the case. Drones Ships are AFK machines, anyone who want an active ship will go for a GunBoat, much more efficient in term of damages ...
So RIP Drones Ships . You assume I don't active play my 960 dps Rattlesnake. Or my 1.2k dps Navy Dominix. I understand and am aware of AFK drone boats being hit by this. But not all drone boats, and not all drone pilots are afk pilots.
He probably does ..
There is a group mindset held by some people that play eve that believe the following statements are all true facts
1 player AFK droneboats, then all droneboats are flown by AFKer's 1 miner bots, then all miners are RMT botters
The FoTM sheep mentality is so ingrained into thier playstyle that they cannot comprehend individuality. The hardcore nonthinkers even believe CCP has actively colluded with RMT'ing websites in the past.
All you can do is ignore them as they will never go away, because the universe doesn't prohibit stupid from breeding. |
|
CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
761
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 11:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Veryez wrote: Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. .
None of the CSM's representing HI SEC is HI SEC's fault for voter apathy for the most part. If we as the majoriy of EVE don't vote it is our fault. I'd perfer the CSM being more representative with electoral districts but any system that tried to base its its reps from where they 'appear' to be from probably would be highly susceptableto gaming. I don't think none of the CCP DEVs lives inHI SEC but itdoes often appear to be true and I believe a majority are NULL or WH residents . I am positive they do careabout HI SEC though I'm sure thegame designers such as CCP Afinity do read these posts here. That said I know it is tuff to notbe overly negitive ( I'm oftenguilty of that too ) but stating that improved AIs as being a negitive just is silly... I believe making mission AI's in the long run will improve the game and hope Incursion AI's ( whom I fight daily) in the future too become smarter even though in the long run my ISK generation would be reduced; why? because I enjoy the challenge of a goodfight in PvE even though they are rare & usually are because of DC's of logi
Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present. CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
|
Matt Grav
Wrath of the Pea
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 12:38:00 -
[117] - Quote
I'm really looking forward to the additional challenge of the new AI. It should make PvE more interesting. PvE should create a fun interaction, not just a boring, same every time isk grind. |
Lord Okinaba
28
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 12:56:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Veryez wrote: Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. .
None of the CSM's representing HI SEC is HI SEC's fault for voter apathy for the most part. If we as the majoriy of EVE don't vote it is our fault. I'd perfer the CSM being more representative with electoral districts but any system that tried to base its its reps from where they 'appear' to be from probably would be highly susceptableto gaming. I don't think none of the CCP DEVs lives inHI SEC but itdoes often appear to be true and I believe a majority are NULL or WH residents . I am positive they do careabout HI SEC though I'm sure thegame designers such as CCP Afinity do read these posts here. That said I know it is tuff to notbe overly negitive ( I'm oftenguilty of that too ) but stating that improved AIs as being a negitive just is silly... I believe making mission AI's in the long run will improve the game and hope Incursion AI's ( whom I fight daily) in the future too become smarter even though in the long run my ISK generation would be reduced; why? because I enjoy the challenge of a goodfight in PvE even though they are rare & usually are because of DC's of logi Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present.
Well I'm not afraid of new challenges. My concern is that currently, the drone boats only niche is PVE. They are very rarely used in PVP because missiles/guns are far more effective and reliable at applying damage.
If this new AI is too aggressive towards drones then it will only serve to make drone boats even more redundant.
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
761
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Posted - 2012.10.02 12:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
Lord Okinaba wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:Veryez wrote: Here's a suggestion CCP, you guys don't live in highsec, you don't run missions, neither does the CSM. .
None of the CSM's representing HI SEC is HI SEC's fault for voter apathy for the most part. If we as the majoriy of EVE don't vote it is our fault. I'd perfer the CSM being more representative with electoral districts but any system that tried to base its its reps from where they 'appear' to be from probably would be highly susceptableto gaming. I don't think none of the CCP DEVs lives inHI SEC but itdoes often appear to be true and I believe a majority are NULL or WH residents . I am positive they do careabout HI SEC though I'm sure thegame designers such as CCP Afinity do read these posts here. That said I know it is tuff to notbe overly negitive ( I'm oftenguilty of that too ) but stating that improved AIs as being a negitive just is silly... I believe making mission AI's in the long run will improve the game and hope Incursion AI's ( whom I fight daily) in the future too become smarter even though in the long run my ISK generation would be reduced; why? because I enjoy the challenge of a goodfight in PvE even though they are rare & usually are because of DC's of logi Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present. Well I'm not afraid of new challenges. My concern is that currently, the drone boats only niche is PVE. They are very rarely used in PVP because missiles/guns are far more effective and reliable at applying damage. If this new AI is too aggressive towards drones then it will only serve to make drone boats even more redundant.
Team Five 0 are testing the new AI with drone boats in missions - NPCs will target switch according to sig radius so sure, frigs might target your drones.. but so far this has proven to cause minimal drone casualties.
CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
761
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Posted - 2012.10.02 13:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
I have also pointed this thread out to CCP Foxfour so hopefully he will post soon :) I don't work on this feature, so only so much I can comment on CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
272
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Posted - 2012.10.02 13:02:00 -
[121] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:
Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present.
Sigh
I'll say it again, Many of us are not scared of new challenges, we're scared of the unintentional consequences that can come with make making changes in a good way. Some of us simply think that trying to "retro-fit" new AI into old content (rather than building new content from the ground up, like was done with incursions and wormholes, content BUILT for advanced AI) is inviting these unintended consequences that could ruin the game experience for quite a few players.
This is why were are highlighting the potential problems, such as the unintended effect of giving null sec "ratters" more protection from pvp due to the possibility of npc pirates switching target to the guy (ganker) who is incidentally trying to save said npc pirates lol.
And that's just one off the top of my head.
"Moving forward" is fine, as long as it's moving forward smartly and with due caution. We appreciate the work FoxFour is putting into testing stuff like the DED plexes to make sure this doesn't kill high end null sec exploration, but many of us (myself included) think a better plan would be a more comprehensive review and then reform of old pve content, not some willy-nilly peicemeal change. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
67
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Posted - 2012.10.02 13:05:00 -
[122] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Time to train up drone durability 5
And level 5 gives you a whopping +25% HP ... or you could just fit a Drone Durability Rig and get +20% HP for zero days of training.
As it is now, most drones don't last more than 2 or 3 hits from high level rats, and even if you're totally focused on them it doesn't help: As soon as you hit the "recall" order you drone first comes to a complete stop for a few agonizing seconds and then beelines right back to your ship, which gives the rat shooting at a pretty much flat shot on the drone the whole way back. On the tougher missions you can recall a drone at the first plink of damage and it still won't make it back in time before the rats pop the poor thing.
Point being: Drone Durability skill is going to need a serious buff when these changes happen. When you get +10% for the skill of whatever boat you're flying and slap another +20% in with a cheap T1 rig, spending all the time to train to all the way to level for only +25% total HP simply doesn't balance out in the grand scheme of things. That skill is going to have to give at least +10% per level now if they don't want to break drone warfare completely.
Oh wait, they do. Well nevermind, then.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
67
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Posted - 2012.10.02 13:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present.
It might be wise to consult with those whom vote with their money before going ahead and making decisions that will negatively affect their desire to give your company their vote.
EvE Forum Bingo |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
761
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Posted - 2012.10.02 13:38:00 -
[124] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present. It might be wise to consult with those whom vote with their money before going ahead and making decisions that will negatively affect their desire to give your company their vote.
Five 0 are reading all the feedback and making sure the concerns raised are included in tests they do. Unfortunately, we cannot halt all development until we make sure everyone is 100% happy with the changes being made, but what we can do is take your concerns on board and make sure we negate them prior to release. CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
20
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Posted - 2012.10.02 14:27:00 -
[125] - Quote
So you might have to actually replace some drones... I have to replace ammo.. so go figure. So much whinage. |
Martin0
Maximum-Overload
76
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Posted - 2012.10.02 14:29:00 -
[126] - Quote
Casirio wrote:So you might have to actually replace some drones... I have to replace ammo.. so go figure. So much whinage.
Your ammo isn't 500k isk each round, and you can carry a lot of ammo, we can have only a few drones. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
902
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Posted - 2012.10.02 14:31:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:
Five 0 are reading all the feedback and making sure the concerns raised are included in tests they do. Unfortunately, we cannot halt all development until we make sure everyone is 100% happy with the changes being made, but what we can do is take your concerns on board and make sure we negate them prior to release.
I think the bigger concerns at this point highlighted from the other thread (The main comment thread) - are that sites from 5/10-6/10, and 10/10s, etc are going to become way too overpowered to bring both DPS and Tank. Possible? Yes. But, unintentionally "nerfing" how fast people can do these sites is peoples fundamental concerns (always about the money).
What needs to be tested is bringing 2-3 man groups into 6/10s up to 10/10s and see how difficult it becomes to kill **** in realistic setups that can survive low/null sec.
Because, being forced to take 2-3 ubertanked battleship to take those sites is a pain the bigger and the more ships you need to take.
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
902
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Posted - 2012.10.02 14:37:00 -
[128] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Casirio wrote:So you might have to actually replace some drones... I have to replace ammo.. so go figure. So much whinage. Your ammo isn't 500k isk each round, and you can carry a lot of ammo, we can have only a few drones.
Have you seen T2 Large Laser Crystal costs? lol
Get off your high horse.
Not only are they expensive, they also break eventually. We should just ask CCP to have drones take "ammo" damage and eventually break. And before you say something about "noone uses faction lasers for missions" or some nonsense, noone is forcing you to use T2 drones.
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=23105 Imperial Navy Multifreq L 1.0 Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy818,999.95382012-12-2810-02 12:52:33
http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12820 Scorch L 0.9 Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant944,998.00 ISK269 2012-12-3110-02 10:08:21 Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
902
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Posted - 2012.10.02 14:45:00 -
[129] - Quote
Lord Okinaba wrote:CCP Affinity wrote:
Yes I do read the posts :) and lots of us devs do live in HI SEC - but we have to move forward.. we can't just never update the NPCs because people are scared of the new challenge it might present.
Well I'm not afraid of new challenges. My concern is that currently, the drone boats only niche is PVE. They are very rarely used in PVP because missiles/guns are far more effective and reliable at applying damage. If this new AI is too aggressive towards drones then it will only serve to make drone boats even more redundant.
You're scared, admit it. Scared that drones won't have somewhere special to be or something. We can buy them a little orphanage in Tibet and let them all go there and spend the rest of their mechanical little lives dreaming of Nirvana.
Seriously, the DRONES WILL BE OK. I promise! They will BE OK!
Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Hulk Miner
SKOOKUM TUMTUM
0
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Posted - 2012.10.02 15:25:00 -
[130] - Quote
A long awaited fix for the NPC's. I may go back and start running missions when they are not so predictable and unchallenging. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
726
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Posted - 2012.10.02 15:27:00 -
[131] - Quote
Hey guys!
So if you don't know who I am I am the guy that is making this change. Just to be clear the dev blog about this can be found over here and the feedback thread for it can be found here.
I have been attempting to follow that feedback thread primarily and I apologize for not reading this thread and commenting on it sooner. I would prefer if you had additional feedback that you posted it in the feedback thread above.
Now, down to business. I have read a good portion of the thread, if I don't answer your question directly sorry. I will however try and answer as many questions as possible.
I have read a few posts stating that devs don't play the game, or that we don't play a specific area of the game such as high sec PvE, or null sec PvE. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. Just in the game design department alone we have people who play both of those areas and much more. This is also not a change we just willy nilly said "well we have nothing else to do so letGÇÖs throw darts at a board and pick something random." This is a change we really feel is needed and really believe in.
As most of this thread is focused on the concerns of drone users letGÇÖs start with them. I don't think I made this entirely clear when I posted the dev blog, but one of the factors that go into an NPC picking a target is the sig radius of both the NPC and the target. The NPC prefer to shoot things matching their own sig radius. This means that if you are in a BS with drones, the cruiser and BS sized NPCs will much prefer to target you while the frigates will probably prefer to switch to your drones. In other words; even when the NPC decide to shoot your drones they don't die nearly as quickly as when you accidentally kill the wrong trigger and a whole new wave spawns shooting your drones. Is that a buff to drones? I donGÇÖt know, but it sure is a change.
I also don't think I made it entirely clear as to how much threat generation matters to this new NPC. One of the really cool things you can do is take two ships with less tank than is currently required, when one tank is failing do something to generate a lot of threat and have the NPC switch to you. I know, this whole concept of managing aggro is new to EVE but other games have been doing it for a long time. With how smart you guys are, I have faith you will quickly come up with ways to beat the new AI far faster than we can.
One of the things I have been doing is using a flight of light drones to kill the frigate NPC and then going with sentry or heavy drones because once the light drones are dead the cruisers and BS basically don't care about drones. Also, a smart bomb is nice for dealing with large numbers of frigates in close.
I am actually currently of the opinion that these changes are making missions two easy in some cases. With how the NPC acted before, all you had to do was bring one tank that was good enough to tank them for the entire time. Now all you need a tank enough to survive until you get them to switch targets. I have seen people run missions/PLEX with dual rep Dominix and maybe a bit of RR on a second one. You can now do the same with 0 local rep, some RR, and replace the local reps with drone damage mods. The result? More DPS from you primary form of DPS (your drones) and this fantastic ability to control aggro.
People in wormholes and Incursions have been dealing with this new AI for some time now without much of a problem. I have seen wormhole setups that use drones be of great success. The NPC I am giving the new AI to will have a lot less hate towards drones than the ones in Incursions or wormholes. This means drone setups should be even more viable than in either wormholes or Incursions.
So drone users, please hold on for just a bit and as soon as our test server is up with these changes I will let you know. Once you have had a chance to test it, died/failed miserably, and tried a new setup I would love some feedback.
To give you an example of how these changes have made things too easy in my opinion. I tanked the final room of The Maze, specifically the citadel torpedo launcher that does something like 180k EM damage, with a single flight of light drones. o_O That will probably change, but my point stands. There are plenty of options still out there for drone users.
Admittedly for those that solo missions in a ship that has no drones this change means nothing at all. It has the largest impact on drone users and groups of players.
Think about this. If we had this AI in from the beginning and came to you and said "hey, we want to swap the AI out to something that will pick the first target it sees and never changes" I am pretty sure we would be laughed at... a lot.
Are there going to be people that die to this change? Yea, especially to that crazy citadel torpedo launcher that exists at the end of The Maze and other anomalies. Just like how peopled died to it when we first introduced it. What I advise is that players take extreme care when they are doing any PvE content in which they previously did with more than one ship and/or with drones. Don't trust the guides online, don't trust what you know. Approach it as new content.
If you are aware of any specific content in which you fear will be unplayable after this changes please bring it to my attention. I am playing through and testing as much content as I can get my hangs on.
What other things are being brought up as concerns?
Null sec ganks of people running PvE content. This does have an effect on that no doubt. To be honest yes this means you will no longer be able to do this solo in a stealth bomber. I however just tested it and was able to tank six frigate NPC in my nemesis long enough for another character to jump into the system and warp 73au. I might be wrong but with the amount of EWAR that comes from frigates, and their hatred of drones, most people usually shoot them first when running these. The cruisers and BS never even looked at my Nemesis while I ganked the Raven. I also made sure the Raven was only running local tank so as not to generate any extra threat. If you want to be able to gank these guys solo, then yes it is going to mean you will need to bring something bigger. If there are a lot of frigate NPC on the field, well that will be difficult. We have accepted that as OK.
I have read a few posts that state having a way to control aggro is essential to group ... Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
272
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Posted - 2012.10.02 15:38:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys!
:(
Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (BRNS) and Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard (ACNS), I really REALLY want you to go do those and see how it goes, please let us know. BRNS specifically is a crap your pants experiance, try it.
I'll make some replies to other stuff later, but this post did kind of answer one of my questions about drones, if cruisers and BS don't much care to aggro drones Ima go super slaughter Forsaken Hubs with the drones I don't get to use now lol.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
272
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Posted - 2012.10.02 15:43:00 -
[133] - Quote
Hulk Miner wrote:A long awaited fix for the NPC's. I may go back and start running missions when they are not so predictable and unchallenging.
They might eventually get there, this change doesn't do that and I don't understand why people think it will. Read FoxFour's big post, if it goes in as it is, it may end up making missions MORE "predictable" and safer the way Incursions are totally predictable and safe. That is if it goes in as stated, we still need to test it.
I am going to **** PVE lol. I'm almost excited to see December now, iskies , they are going to be great!
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
316
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Posted - 2012.10.02 17:47:00 -
[134] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys! Lots of words Your post makes me want to get into the test server more than ever at this point. From this description it still looks like drone boats are only the way to go if you can't fly anything else with the same proficiency. I wonder how well light drones will last if frigs, especially elites, tend to like my drones more than my ship. Past experience indicates it's not long, and smartbombing is not wise in highsec.
I can see using ECM or RR as viable counters, but it's an interesting compromise that only affects drone ships and means sacrificing slots for mods a gunship wouldn't need while in many cases the drone ships already have one less slot than other equivalent ships of the same type.
In groups, the dedicated tank may still remain, just now with more of a focus on actually pulling aggro, but will that be enough with gimped DPS output to keep rat focus off of any RR support that may be needed? So many questions.
Perhaps these are minor concerns that won't play out but that's all the more reason we need to have a chance to test this on the test server. Really can't wait for the opportunity. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
12
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Posted - 2012.10.02 18:20:00 -
[135] - Quote
Why the new thread? A link to the dev blog discussion thread would have made more sense, no? |
Sinigr Shadowsong
WATAG Academy SOLAR WING
20
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Posted - 2012.10.02 19:45:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: Wall of text.
Have you tested carriers with the new AI? It's signature is way to big to interest Rats :(. Are NPC consider signature radius of ships or only base signature? I mean will they treat specially targets on MWD? |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
373
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Posted - 2012.10.02 22:27:00 -
[137] - Quote
Lord Okinaba wrote:
Well I'm not afraid of new challenges. My concern is that currently, the drone boats only niche is PVE. They are very rarely used in PVP because missiles/guns are far more effective and reliable at applying damage.
If this new AI is too aggressive towards drones then it will only serve to make drone boats even more redundant.
I think from what I've read of DEVs posts that there is a Drone hate slider with the AI... in Inucrsions and WH's it is fairly high. From what I've hear it will be in comparision higher in Missions then what it is now it'llbe around 1/2 the Incursion drone hate on the meter. While Domi's & drone boats are not at all favored in the Incursion communities it mostly because in competition turrents are much faster although often a few drones get killed by the eysters its never all the drones unless there was a failscade Nostalgie ist die Faehigkeit, darueber zu trauern, dass es nicht mehr so ist, wie es frueher nicht gewesen ist. -- Manfred Rommel-á |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
19
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Posted - 2012.10.02 23:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP FoxFour : This is a change we really feel is needed and really believe in.
And some of us simply wish this change wasn't being made in a vacuum...
CCP FoxFour : This means that if you are in a BS with drones, the cruiser and BS sized NPCs will much prefer to target you while the frigates will probably prefer to switch to your drones.
This test apparently was done with light drones... my findings (posted in that other thread) with medium drones had remarkably different results, but the server's been down for a while so I can't actually finish testing. Also, the general feedback I've heard suggests staying motionless with sentries killing Cruiser's and BS's while leaving your cadre of frigates in orbit as a type of insta-CONCORD protection from PvP interlopers in frigates.
CCP FoxFour : Also, a smart bomb is nice for dealing with large numbers of frigates in close.
Doing this in high-sec, of course, will eventually result in the loss of said ship... but there seems to be considerable controversy in the other thread about how successful this tactic would be in the DED 10/10 missions.
CCP FoxFour : I am actually currently of the opinion that these changes are making missions two easy in some cases.
Welcome to unintentional consequences? This, coupled with the lousy drone interface system is my biggest complaint. Not that "zoinkies, we've got to adapt to change", but that this is a pretty massive change with very little short-term gain, until you guys get back to it and iterate more in 18 months...
CCP FoxFour : You can now do the same with 0 local rep, some RR, and replace the local reps with drone damage mods. The result? More DPS from you primary form of DPS (your drones) and this fantastic ability to control aggro.
Stealth Dual AFK Domi buff?
CCP FoxFour : People in wormholes and Incursions have been dealing with this new AI for some time now without much of a problem. I have seen wormhole setups that use drones be of great success.
Comparing apples to a fruit cocktail doesn't... exactly work, but I understand the thought process behind the comparison, even if I don't like it. I think it's worth pointing out though that the average WH pilot seems to ignore drones. Average, of course, does not apply to Drone boat proteus WH salvage fits, and the like.
CCP FoxFour : So drone users, please hold on for just a bit and as soon as our test server is up with these changes I will let you know. Once you have had a chance to test it, died/failed miserably, and tried a new setup I would love some feedback.
My current disdain is based on the test I ran, but again... not done with testing.
CCP FoxFour : Think about this. If we had this AI in from the beginning and came to you and said "hey, we want to swap the AI out to something that will pick the first target it sees and never changes" I am pretty sure we would be laughed at... a lot.
And yet, 100% of the content designed over those years would have been written with these changes in mind. Now we've got years and years of existing content with a new AI bolted on top. That's one of the big complaints people have.
I'm not as angry about these changes as these posts may appear, but it just seems like a really poorly thought out idea to me with little to no real 'gain' until whenever you guys get back to it and iterate more. |
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
100
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Posted - 2012.10.03 00:37:00 -
[139] - Quote
Train drone durability 5 guys.
With that skill and HP bonus given by a droneship, your drones last quite a bit, and very rarely you'll lose it in missions. Sometimes when I mission in a droneship, I just dont care about their aggro, and let them be hit, it takes quite a bit they to lose shields.
So deploy them, if they get aggro (and you'll know, bc the rats wont be yellow boxing red boxing you!) get them in, redeploy. Easy. Just that means, no more ez-mode afking or botting with a droneship. And if you dont wanna micro, dont use droneship (pet class!). |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
363
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Posted - 2012.10.03 01:04:00 -
[140] - Quote
Adigard wrote:Lots of words
Good post. Fox also asked for feedback in the feedback thread. I would suggest posting this there so it is sure to be seen. |
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Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
19
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Posted - 2012.10.03 02:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:This is unrelated, but I've been laughed at for having drone durability 5 ("one of those useless skills" one guy said). OFC when rats had (and still have) abysmal AI!
Drone Dura V and Gal BS V are roughly 50 days training (since you can't possibly be spec'ed for both without a remap) and is only 11% more total drone health. Gal BS V is more damage and is therefore worthwhile, but Drone Dura V remains semi-questionable. Drone Dura V, if you already had Gal BS V, is a scant 4% more health.
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Time to train up drone durability 5 And level 5 gives you a whopping +25% HP ... or you could just fit a Drone Durability Rig and get +20% HP for zero days of training. Point being: Drone Durability skill is going to need a serious buff when these changes happen. When you get +10% for the skill of whatever boat you're flying and slap another +20% in with a cheap T1 rig, spending all the time to train to all the way to level for only +25% total HP simply doesn't balance out in the grand scheme of things. That skill is going to have to give at least +10% per level now if they don't want to break drone warfare completely. Oh wait, they do. Well nevermind, then.
wut?
DDE's at 100 calibration don't seem very likely to make much of a splash, even with this change. But who knows, maybe they will. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1294
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 05:08:00 -
[142] - Quote
What they could do is reduce the drone signature radiuses across the board. Currently mediums have larger sigs than frigates. Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
16
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Posted - 2012.10.03 09:13:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: Null sec ganks of people running PvE content. This does have an effect on that no doubt. To be honest yes this means you will no longer be able to do this solo in a stealth bomber. I however just tested it and was able to tank six frigate NPC in my nemesis long enough for another character to jump into the system and warp 73au. I might be wrong but with the amount of EWAR that comes from frigates, and their hatred of drones, most people usually shoot them first when running these. The cruisers and BS never even looked at my Nemesis while I ganked the Raven. I also made sure the Raven was only running local tank so as not to generate any extra threat. If you want to be able to gank these guys solo, then yes it is going to mean you will need to bring something bigger. If there are a lot of frigate NPC on the field, well that will be difficult. We have accepted that as OK.
You have accepted it as "OK"? Catching a ratter in an anom relies 100% on the ratter not to be paying attention - it takes at minimum 20 seconds after spiking local to scan down and land on grid with a ratter - and now you want to make it so even if you do get tackle in an interceptor, you're going to have to also hope the ratter killed all the frigates? Really, the odds were already skewed heavily in the null bears favor, and now you are basically deeming it OK to destroy an entire play-style.
That's without mentioning people who like soloing in stealth bombers (of which there are a lot) which you basically just said "yeah well **** you guys I like PvE more, get a friend or a bigger ship" to.
I don't know why you think its okay to do this.
The corp I'm in will basically have to recreate itself or die if this goes through, since all we do is being destroyed by the whimsical changes of a dev who doesn't care for a particular style of play.
On another note, why would Sansha start shooting at someone who was quite clearly helping them? That's stupid. |
Golar Crexis
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
33
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Posted - 2012.10.03 09:38:00 -
[144] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote: Null sec ganks of people running PvE content. This does have an effect on that no doubt. To be honest yes this means you will no longer be able to do this solo in a stealth bomber. I however just tested it and was able to tank six frigate NPC in my nemesis long enough for another character to jump into the system and warp 73au. I might be wrong but with the amount of EWAR that comes from frigates, and their hatred of drones, most people usually shoot them first when running these. The cruisers and BS never even looked at my Nemesis while I ganked the Raven. I also made sure the Raven was only running local tank so as not to generate any extra threat. If you want to be able to gank these guys solo, then yes it is going to mean you will need to bring something bigger. If there are a lot of frigate NPC on the field, well that will be difficult. We have accepted that as OK.
You have accepted it as "OK"? Catching a ratter in an anom relies 100% on the ratter not to be paying attention - it takes at minimum 20 seconds after spiking local to scan down and land on grid with a ratter - and now you want to make it so even if you do get tackle in an interceptor, you're going to have to also hope the ratter killed all the frigates? Really, the odds were already skewed heavily in the null bears favor, and now you are basically deeming it OK to destroy an entire play-style. That's without mentioning people who like soloing in stealth bombers (of which there are a lot) which you basically just said "yeah well **** you guys I like PvE more, get a friend or a bigger ship" to. I don't know why you think its okay to do this. The corp I'm in will basically have to recreate itself or die if this goes through, since all we do is being destroyed by the whimsical changes of a dev who doesn't care for a particular style of play. On another note, why would Sansha start shooting at someone who was quite clearly helping them? That's stupid.
I foresee a new strategy of leaving the small rats alive simply to help kill hostile tacklers.
I would like to ask about the test that was conducted. Did the raven put light drones and its launchers on the nemesis? Was the raven actually properly pve fit? With hardners? Because based on my experience even the tanked Stealth bombers we use would find it difficult to deal with small rat aggro + raven agro.
I believe this change will make all anoms safer to run except forsaken hubs simply because the frigates will be on the ratters side.
Also funny thought but if you are tackled by the rats you can simply send out light drones after them and they swap aggro.
Edit: perhaps if this change was paired with a corresponding local nerf or tweak it might not be so bad. I would really like ccp's opinion on this simply because it seems like they have just decreased the risk across the board. |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
19
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Posted - 2012.10.03 11:13:00 -
[145] - Quote
Capqu wrote:You have accepted it as "OK"? Catching a ratter in an anom relies 100% on the ratter not to be paying attention - it takes at minimum 20 seconds after spiking local to scan down and land on grid with a ratter - and now you want to make it so even if you do get tackle in an interceptor, you're going to have to also hope the ratter killed all the frigates? Really, the odds were already skewed heavily in the null bears favor, and now you are basically deeming it OK to destroy an entire play-style.
...
On another note, why would Sansha start shooting at someone who was quite clearly helping them? That's stupid.
CCP has accepted the death of this playstyle, along with a few others as okay. You heard it from the team who 'fixed' Incursions. You'll, cope, I guess? Just like the Incursion players d... oh wait.
Golar Crexis wrote:I foresee a new strategy of leaving the small rats alive simply to help kill hostile tacklers.
The strategy will probably be the same as it is now for some player's. Kill the BS's first, while leaving the frigates and cruiser's. If a PvP pilot pops in on you, stop shooting at the rats because all the frigate's and potentially some of the cruiser's will swap to the PvP'er and you'll have your own pocket CONCORD to protect you. Even though you were just recently killing them. Fortunately for the lucky 'bear, they'll focus on killing the PvP'er until the 'bear swaps back to them.
Golar Crexis wrote:Also funny thought but if you are tackled by the rats you can simply send out light drones after them and they swap aggro.
Do it with medium drones and you can escape faction police scrams as well... whee for unintended consequences.
Golar Crexis wrote: Edit: perhaps if this change was paired with a corresponding local nerf or tweak it might not be so bad. I would really like ccp's opinion on this simply because it seems like they have just decreased the risk across the board.
They seem to be okay with it. |
Beagle von Space
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
7
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Posted - 2012.10.03 11:38:00 -
[146] - Quote
Missions are mind-numbingly simple, easy to farm, and overpowered as it is. They are a significant part of the low-risk, moderate-to-high reward lifestyle of high sec.
Yes, mistakes may be made that will need to be iterated on when these changes are implemented, but all-in-all, I think these will be for the better.
tl;dr: Your bottomless, semi-afk isk fountain getting nerfed doesn't mean CCP hates you, it means you're not supposed to have bottomless, semi-afk isk fountains.
I'm too young to be a bittervet.... |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
273
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:32:00 -
[147] - Quote
Adigard wrote:[quote=Capqu]If a PvP pilot pops in on you, stop shooting at the rats because all the frigate's and potentially some of the cruiser's will swap to the PvP'er and you'll have your own pocket CONCORD to protect you. Even though you were just recently killing them. Fortunately for the lucky 'bear, they'll focus on killing the PvP'er until the 'bear swaps back to them.
Seems likely, and I just think it's bizarre that ccp thinks this is "better". The NPC frigs are one thing, but the thing I plan on leaving alive in noms and plexes as my "pocket concord" or "Bear Shield" (took me all night to think up Bear Shield, where is my forum copyright button?) are the NPc DESTROYERS, 3 or 4 of whom could instapop a frigate sized ship trying to tackle me.
A warp disruptor or scram counts are EWAR right, so mister "i'm gonna kill yo shiney ship in the sanctum" just made him NPC enemy #1 by pointing me LOL.
I don't know about you Adi, but I'm book marking this thread and the other one for my victory lap/"we told you so" postings I'll do sometime after Dec 3 :) .
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Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
110
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:54:00 -
[148] - Quote
Capqu wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote: Null sec ganks of people running PvE content. This does have an effect on that no doubt. To be honest yes this means you will no longer be able to do this solo in a stealth bomber. I however just tested it and was able to tank six frigate NPC in my nemesis long enough for another character to jump into the system and warp 73au. I might be wrong but with the amount of EWAR that comes from frigates, and their hatred of drones, most people usually shoot them first when running these. The cruisers and BS never even looked at my Nemesis while I ganked the Raven. I also made sure the Raven was only running local tank so as not to generate any extra threat. If you want to be able to gank these guys solo, then yes it is going to mean you will need to bring something bigger. If there are a lot of frigate NPC on the field, well that will be difficult. We have accepted that as OK.
You have accepted it as "OK"? Catching a ratter in an anom relies 100% on the ratter not to be paying attention - it takes at minimum 20 seconds after spiking local to scan down and land on grid with a ratter - and now you want to make it so even if you do get tackle in an interceptor, you're going to have to also hope the ratter killed all the frigates? Really, the odds were already skewed heavily in the null bears favor, and now you are basically deeming it OK to destroy an entire play-style. That's without mentioning people who like soloing in stealth bombers (of which there are a lot) which you basically just said "yeah well **** you guys I like PvE more, get a friend or a bigger ship" to. I don't know why you think its okay to do this. The corp I'm in will basically have to recreate itself or die if this goes through, since all we do is being destroyed by the whimsical changes of a dev who doesn't care for a particular style of play. On another note, why would Sansha start shooting at someone who was quite clearly helping them? That's stupid.
Ahhhhh. My heart bleeds for you.
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
734
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:56:00 -
[149] - Quote
Guys please move the feedback to the other thread. I should have made my post there and posted a link from here to there. Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
374
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:45:00 -
[150] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Guys please move the feedback to the other thread. I should have made my post there and posted a link from here to there. Only way to kill this thread is to give a final link to where you want them to go & close it IMHO. Nostalgie ist die Faehigkeit, darueber zu trauern, dass es nicht mehr so ist, wie es frueher nicht gewesen ist. -- Manfred Rommel-á |
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
365
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:50:00 -
[151] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Guys please move the feedback to the other thread. I should have made my post there and posted a link from here to there. Only way to kill this thread is to give a final link to where you want them to go & close it IMHO.
+1 |
WInter Borne
Cold Station 12 Surely You're Joking
8
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Posted - 2012.10.03 17:12:00 -
[152] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys!
:( Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (BRNS) and Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard (ACNS), I really REALLY want you to go do those and see how it goes, please let us know. BRNS specifically is a crap your pants experiance, try it. I'll make some replies to other stuff later, but this post did kind of answer one of my questions about drones, if cruisers and BS don't much care to aggro drones Ima go super slaughter Forsaken Hubs with the drones I don't get to use now lol.
Try a double sleeper escalation then get back to me. |
Aimee Maken
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:22:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys!
Look, at this point, it does not seem that there is an willingness of ccp to put out actual pve content, having the AI change is not something that was completely needed for pve in high or null.
Having some tiered system where people can scale up and down group size and risk (think of how wow handles 5 to 25 people content, add in scaling up to 100 or more people and call it something for eve) that is not just high end content like incursion which would be very nice. Something that scales from baby's first group content with frigates and destroyers, to 100 man shiny fleets out in null with good location choice, eyes, hot drop backup and semi pvp fit with good FC.
PvE in any other game is something I can get a group of my IRL friends to come in, does it in an hour or two, and then if they want to do something else, I can do my own thing that is harder afterwards. There is no such equivalent in eve.
It would be nice for example to have some scripted content, like say having the need for smaller ships to bait larger ships into asteroid belt or mine field. Or having ECM applied at specific times to mitigate a "big hit", think something like a charge up time for a large gun that you better have enough TD and angular velocity ready to counter it.
Then to scale those, at the start the bait ship could be done by any thing reasonably fast, and the mine field or asteroid would be easily avoidable and don't need much manual piloting. While at the highest end, you need Inty or AF to tank some incoming damage (gear check), that has lots of zones where you need to do manual piloting to avoid (skill check), and has the chaser needing some sort of ECM to get things going (coordination check).
Eve needs some content to be consumed, it can't all just be dynamic player produced content when it is Player verses ENVIRONMENT. Having this AI change is simply going to annoy the high sec players that never reads forums or communicates other than their little bubble of people, it isn't going to draw in any more people or interest any more people than what we got now because it is simply making the tedious and boring pve content a bit more annoying to do.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
278
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:57:00 -
[154] - Quote
WInter Borne wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys!
:( Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (BRNS) and Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard (ACNS), I really REALLY want you to go do those and see how it goes, please let us know. BRNS specifically is a crap your pants experiance, try it. I'll make some replies to other stuff later, but this post did kind of answer one of my questions about drones, if cruisers and BS don't much care to aggro drones Ima go super slaughter Forsaken Hubs with the drones I don't get to use now lol. Try a double sleeper escalation then get back to me.
Been there, dont that (when we didn't known any better and tried to warp in TEN RR battleships........).
BRNS is worse the 1st time, easy after you knew how to tank it. But it's an example of an insane complex created with the old mechanics in mind that will not work with the new AI, and not even because of the torp.
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Lithorn
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
0
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Posted - 2012.10.03 20:41:00 -
[155] - Quote
" This is why were are highlighting the potential problems, such as the unintended effect of giving null sec "ratters" more protection from pvp due to the possibility of npc pirates switching target to[i] the guy (ganker) who is incidentally trying to save said npc pirates lol. "
That logic doesn't work, that would be like whining about a ganker appearing on grid in an active WH site, said griefer dies and says the "sleepers were protecting him from pvp!!" That is just silly, don't go in the kitchen if you can't tank the heat. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
42
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 22:21:00 -
[156] - Quote
Lets say a ganker appears and attacks the initial ratter. Wouldn't it make sense that the NPC would not aggro the ganker as he is attacking what they were already attacking?
Your intention is to make the rats smarter isn't it? Making them switch to the ganker would effectively not accomplish your goal. |
Adigard
RubberDuckies -Entropy-
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 23:04:00 -
[157] - Quote
Lithorn wrote:" This is why were are highlighting the potential problems, such as the unintended effect of giving null sec "ratters" more protection from pvp due to the possibility of npc pirates switching target to[i] the guy (ganker) who is incidentally trying to save said npc pirates lol. "
That logic doesn't work, that would be like whining about a ganker appearing on grid in an active WH site, said griefer dies and says the "sleepers were protecting him from pvp!!" That is just silly, don't go in the kitchen if you can't tank the heat.
Fortunately for everyone that doesn't hunt carebears in their missions and PLEX's, the griefer will pretty much die because the mission rats will protect the carebear from unexpected PvP. Depending on how smart the carebear is (doesn't have to be very), the rats will turn into CONCORD and focus fire on the PvP interloper until he dies... and only then will they focus attention back on the carebear.
CCP is okay with this, btw... just in case that was a follow-up question.
Beagle von Space wrote:tl;dr: Your bottomless, semi-afk isk fountain getting nerfed doesn't mean CCP hates you, it means you're not supposed to have bottomless, semi-afk isk fountains.
I'm too young to be a bittervet....
Read some of the threads, then get back to us :)
If you still imagine this change is going to do a single thing to stop totally AFK drone usage, then you may want to re-read, slower. |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
12
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 09:28:00 -
[158] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:Lets say a ganker appears and attacks the initial ratter. Wouldn't it make sense that the NPC would not aggro the ganker as he is attacking what they were already attacking?
Your intention is to make the rats smarter isn't it? Making them switch to the ganker would effectively not accomplish your goal.
Does that happen in 0.0 systems with NBSI policy? Why should the rats be more diplomatic than nullsec players?
Oh and btw. the link FoxFour forgot to post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690 |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
742
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 10:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Maz3r Rakum wrote:Lets say a ganker appears and attacks the initial ratter. Wouldn't it make sense that the NPC would not aggro the ganker as he is attacking what they were already attacking?
Your intention is to make the rats smarter isn't it? Making them switch to the ganker would effectively not accomplish your goal. Does that happen in 0.0 systems with NBSI policy? Why should the rats be more diplomatic than nullsec players? Oh and btw. the link FoxFour forgot to post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690Could a mod close this thread please, so we can discuss in ONE thread? Thanks.
Yea, that was my fault I included a link in my big post but should have added it again.
Please try and keep the feedback over in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690 Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 12:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Maz3r Rakum wrote:Lets say a ganker appears and attacks the initial ratter. Wouldn't it make sense that the NPC would not aggro the ganker as he is attacking what they were already attacking?
Your intention is to make the rats smarter isn't it? Making them switch to the ganker would effectively not accomplish your goal. Does that happen in 0.0 systems with NBSI policy? Why should the rats be more diplomatic than nullsec players? Oh and btw. the link FoxFour forgot to post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690Could a mod close this thread please, so we can discuss in ONE thread? Thanks. Yea, that was my fault I included a link in my big post but should have added it again. Please try and keep the feedback over in this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690
I think the NPC should ignore the guy attacking their own target... unless that target is also remote repping or assisting him... or attacking the rats... or at least have him as low priority... what is your opinion FoxFour if you havn't answered this somewhere else... (what if I caught a battleship with my frig, and it was taking long time to kill him... but he couldn't damage me at all, and then suddenly the NPC changed target to me... that would basicly have turned the NPC into his friends and nerfed pvp to some degree) Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
287
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 13:02:00 -
[161] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Maz3r Rakum wrote:Lets say a ganker appears and attacks the initial ratter. Wouldn't it make sense that the NPC would not aggro the ganker as he is attacking what they were already attacking?
Your intention is to make the rats smarter isn't it? Making them switch to the ganker would effectively not accomplish your goal. Does that happen in 0.0 systems with NBSI policy? Why should the rats be more diplomatic than nullsec players? .
Yes it does, an FC with a fleet getting DECIMATED by the enemy isn't going to shoot the new neutrals that warp in and start shooting the people that are killing them. At least till after the main threat is dead, then if the FC thinks he can take the new neutrals and get more kills, most will.
This is what we are talking about, pragmatic reality, it makes no sense for NPCs to shoot a stealth bombers that is no immediate threat to them AND helping them kill the BATTLESHIP that has already killed 25 of their own battleships lol.
Then there is reality. The reality is with this change less ratters in shiney ships will be killed. Less ratters in shiney ships being killed means a drop in the prices of the BPCs that drop from content the ratters are doing ect ect. I obvioulsy don't want to lose my Machariel, but isk making in null is already incredibly easy and their is NO justification for a null sec ratting safety buff/pvp nerf.
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
769
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 13:40:00 -
[162] - Quote
Closing this thread.
As stated several times, all feedback welcome here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155690 CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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