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CCP Hammer
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Posted - 2005.03.02 20:44:00 -
[1]
I'm going to start this post with an image:
That is the current state of the small short range/high damage weapons fitted with the longest range/lowest damage ammos. This is with no ship bonuses, shooting at a frigate flying at 300m/s. I would say that the blasters and autocannons compare relatively well to each other but there is a line on that graph that is just a little out of place, you might even say it's not balanced. That's the pulse laser. The pulse lasers optimal range gives it what some might call "an advantage" over the other classes of short range/high damage weapons. The damage output is also an issue when using Carbonized Lead vs. Iron vs. Radio. This is something that most sane players with a mind for balance and fairness would want fixed I'm guessing.
It's worth noting at this point that the guns are all factors of their smaller siblings so if the Mega Pulse is out of Balance with the 800mm autocannon then the same must hold true for the medium and small guns. Some people might need to read that last sentence twice. Now we then look at a graph of the just the mega pulse lasers with each type of crystal fitted. This simulates shooting at a battleship traveling at a transversal of 150m/s. (no skills included in the calculations)
As can be seen by this graph the laser frequency crystals are all over the place with regard to their range and damage. The standard crystal just sucks and the longer range crystals just get better and better as they go further out without ever getting lower in damage like would be expected and like happens on Hybrid Charges and Projectile Ammo. This makes the radio crystal a no brainer when you want anything longer range than UV and makes the other crystals pretty pointless. This is especially true when considering firing on a typical triple hardened battleship their least resisted damage type is EM. So some fixing was in order for the crystals to fix their feng shui.
So what we're putting out for testing is the fix to crystals and nerf to the pulse lasers optimal range to see if this helps to balance them out. Nerfing optimal seemed like the best choice as that's where they are currently out of balance with the other guns. The other logical choice would have been to reduce their damage at turn them into a truely medium range gun but that would have left lasers with no short range option and would have left hybrids and projectiles without a true medium range weapon. This could have thrown the balance furhter out of wack instead of fixing things.
So here is a graph of the proposed change to crystals and pulse lasers (with no skills added):
If you compare that to the second image I'm sure you would agree that this looks far more "correct".
Finally I've included a graph of the pulse lasers imposed with an ion blaster and a 350mm railgun both fitted with antimatter. This is also shooting at a 400 sigRad target moving 150m/s transversally. (gunnery skills at 5 but no ship skills)
The hybrids are perhaps doing a little less damage than they should be doing considering the amount of cap they use so that will mostly lilely get looked at at some point in the future but no promises there. (I said no promises!  )
I await the flames of my evil Amarrian supressors.
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.03.02 20:47:00 -
[2]
First post!!!!
Glad to see your making changes
<-- Hybrid user
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Soren
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Posted - 2005.03.02 20:47:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Soren on 02/03/2005 20:52:52
\0/
Hybirds need to be looked at, seeing that a ion balster does the same damage as megapulse with MF crystal, but crapy range and more cap use.
Also, why no projectile comparisons on the graphs? I'd like to see how I fair compaired them them as well  .
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Chrisb6122
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Posted - 2005.03.02 20:53:00 -
[4]
Thx for the info
Keep looking at the cap usuage on blasters do
< hybrid user
Magnet41 > i kill people ingame because i would take a bigger sec if i killed them in rl |
Saladin
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Posted - 2005.03.02 20:58:00 -
[5]
What factor was the optimal reduced by. It looks like 50% but I cant tell exactly from the graph
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Epofhis
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:00:00 -
[6]
Well glad to see cpp doin somethin
<----- Hybrid user as well
there are you happy now, my sig fits every rule. Now, no delete me pls, I promise to be good!!!11010101!! |
Kurenin
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:00:00 -
[7]
Stats are nice, but frankly, in practice things don't work that way.
Radio does one damage type. Lasers have awful falloff etc.
-----
[22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas?
[22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Inactivity wins you. |
Sivona
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:01:00 -
[8]
Most appropriate changes it appears to bring these back in line
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Lorth
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:02:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Saladin
What factor was the optimal reduced by. It looks like 50% but I cant tell exactly from the graph
Just less then 30% if you look at the number under the graph.
One question, it would seem that pulse are still doing as much damage as blasters are. Though at a longer range and for less cap usage.
What concerns me is the advantage pulse still have over blasters and autocannons based on thier greater range and as much damage. While I know there are no ship skills in the graphs, the geddon for example does have as much as a bonus as the mega does for example.
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GFLTorque
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:05:00 -
[10]
Hammerhead 4 th3 w1n !
Hammerhead = undisputable logic
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
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Demitri Klashnikov
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:11:00 -
[11]
Somthing wrong with a Minnie messing with my lasers 
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:14:00 -
[12]
Getting there - nice work
How about a reduction in tracking? They hit frigates very easily.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/03/2005 12:18:58
Looks like a good start.
As you see, megapulse+mf > ion blaster +AM.
Add ship bonuses and the difference is in favour of hybrids comparing apoc+megapulse (which would be correct in view of the argument im gonna give below), but is even more in favour of megapulse when considering rof bonus on arma v damage bonus on mega.
But for me, the main point is the fact that megapulses operate at medium range, and with this change, thats reduced. They now comfortably rule from 10km up to 30KM. Ok, thats not as good as they were, and worth a shot.
IMy argument: no gun should be allowed to dominate medium range with damage comparable to either short range or long range guns. Playability is suffering because of it.
aside from all that, i'm curious about how they will behave towards smaller targets now.
I wonder if one tracking comp will still mean instadeath for frigs and cruisers at range between 20 and 50 km with these stats. Seeing as tracking wasnt changed it seems, that imbalance should also still be there, altho reduced due to lesser effectivity at 30+km.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Kikapu
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:21:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Kikapu on 02/03/2005 21:33:30
about time. why not fix hybrids now?
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Making a new char picture will not work on the forums. The payment, however, does. |
Renox
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:22:00 -
[15]
it is certainly more in line with how it should be. One thing I don't understand though, why do the megapulse + multi do the same (more?) dam at 15 km as an ion blaster + AM at 5 km?
"
While Celestial Apoc is filled with smack talking, safespot hugging, gate cudling, empire war exploiting |
Saerid
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:34:00 -
[16]
So to sum up, megapulses lose some 10-15km from the top end range, and need to step up to higher range crystals a bit earlier in the low end. Tracking and damage as before.. Can't say I mind that a whole lot (and I'm using megapulses more or less exclusively).It's still a very convenient weapon after the changes,and it's strong points will still cover most used ranges.
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Kikapu
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:36:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kikapu on 02/03/2005 21:38:04
"it is certainly more in line with how it should be. One thing I don't understand though, why do the megapulse + multi do the same (more?) dam at 15 km as an ion blaster + AM at 5 km?"
thats beacuse amarr is better at whining than we gallente. if we gallente made alot of noise, we would get heard, but we dont. we just float on.
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Making a new char picture will not work on the forums. The payment, however, does. |
sableye
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:36:00 -
[18]
although changes seem nice in some ways, the main thinsg these graphs show me is hybrids suck and the megapulses still look good, plus I don't see these changes stopping gankgedons at all, they'll still be as popular as ever.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:38:00 -
[19]
Ehh.. hybrids "might" be looked at later?
Great, so they continue to suck more cap than lasers which is inherently wrong.
¼©¼
a history |
Wuubaa
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:40:00 -
[20]
Looking good. Lets hope it works as well in practice as the graphs show it to 
And YAY for hybrids gettin a look maybe, no promises, soon, ish 
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Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:41:00 -
[21]
I don't get it...
I mean I get the change to the pulses...
I just don't get the change to the long range crystals.... or did you forget there are other lasers that use those crystals as well.... such as the tachyon, which last time I checked was a long range weapon.... of which you want to reduce the damage output by 30%
my god...
it's projectile changes all over again
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
danneh
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:47:00 -
[22]
<-- cant use anything but lasers
:> |
Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:52:00 -
[23]
beams suck, their only advantage is range, and the only way to make range effective, is for it to be VERY LONG range, and we still need damage, if they reduce dmg of long range crystals, beams=suxor
As for pules, thx, im thinking how the *** am i going to npc hunt after this...i guess i'll maximize my skills to lvl 5... get tech II, just like the poor minmatars did...
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Thanit
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Na'Axin
I don't get it...
I mean I get the change to the pulses...
I just don't get the change to the long range crystals.... or did you forget there are other lasers that use those crystals as well.... such as the tachyon, which last time I checked was a long range weapon.... of which you want to reduce the damage output by 30%
my god...
it's projectile changes all over again
Only the radio crystals as far as i can see tbh.
And those were up ahead by that margin already anyway.
Tachs will still rule at the shorter end of very long range, escpecially due to their insanely high tracking.
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Perry
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:54:00 -
[25]
I've flown my Armageddon for 20 Month now (yes the ship is that old, no i dont use cheats *g*), and every couple of Months it feels like I'm changing the Ship without even knowing. 
The first graph looks quite good, shows that i've choosen the right race.  Im not concerned about large and medium Turrets, the fix is needed cause im slaughtering enemies left and right with my pulses from hell, BUT have a careful look at frigate level warfare. Crusader and Malediction are on paar, but not superior. If you change *caughnerfcaugh* small pulses, they could possible become quite useless with their mediocre pulses, because A) beams doesnt even fit on aussaults and B) all other ceptors have better weapons. I mentioned assaults right. Amarr ones suck quite a bit, and pulse nerf is hurting them further.
But i'll watch the fireworks when patch kicks in, be it exploding geddons left and right or going on ganking the crap out of stuff with my pulses from hell balanced edition
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Redwolf
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Posted - 2005.03.02 21:57:00 -
[26]
OMG!
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.02 22:04:00 -
[27]
The first graph summed everything up really. The optimal nerf looks ok, a drop in 10k of base max range, which will still mean 65k range with skills.
Any chance of a graph to compare, pulses/beams vs the hybrids and projectiles on their respective ships with skills (say lvl 4) with these change.
Looks reasonable anyway, and hybrids for a start could do with at least less cap use as lasers use less than they do atm.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.03.02 22:05:00 -
[28]
Has anyone figured out which proj/hybrid gun the megapulse is meant to compare with?
Can't think of another gun that does blaster damage at mid-range.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Moadyb
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Posted - 2005.03.02 22:07:00 -
[29]
Oki, fine, we knew the pulse nerf is coming after the endless threads of hybird and projectile users whining.
The topic says 'OMG Pulse laser nerf'. Oki, fine, lets see. read it, cried a little, and i think the topic should be changed to:
OMG Total nerf of all Lasers!
Tachs and Beams are going to become useless with the proposed changes in crystals, if you want to make the pulse useless, fine, go ahead, but at least leave us laser luvers with something to shoot with.
And CCP, do you really think you gonna bring balance? You only gonna shift the whining to another weapon class.
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Caldorous
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Posted - 2005.03.02 22:08:00 -
[30]
Comments about the graphs:
1st) Something must be changed, indeed (/me points the red curbe)
2nd) In fact, the radio, infrared and microwave damage output must be nerfed, but something has to be taking into account=> the speciality of damage, a EM tanked bs can reduce the damage of that crystals to a ridiculous ammount, so dont reduce too much the damage of the ammo
3rd) The graphic is pretty but that damage should take into account the restricted damage type that the high range crystal suffer.
4rd) Definately, the ion blaster should do at least the same damage that the megapulse
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2005.03.13 01:11:29combatYour 350mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar), wrecking for 0.0 damage.
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