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OMG Pulse Laser Nerf

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Phades	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:10:00 - [331] Actually if the taranis only had 1 low slot, perhaps 2, that might be valid, but having 3 they will always have the option to do so when fitting ions.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:12:00 - [332] Originally by: Phades Actually if the taranis only had 1 low slot, perhaps 2, that might be valid, but having 3 they will always have the option to do so when fitting ions. shrug Its not about a gauruntee
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:29:00 - [333] So its balanced if umm the taranis doesnt want to do the most damage it can? I guess you can color me puzzled. Wouldnt that be akin to a thorax not using a mwd, or a armageddon not trying to maximise damage by overloading the lows with all damage mods?
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 09:43:00 - [334] Originally by: Phades So its balanced if umm the taranis doesnt want to do the most damage it can? I guess you can color me puzzled. Wouldnt that be akin to a thorax not using a mwd, or a armageddon not trying to maximise damage by overloading the lows with all damage mods? sigh - lower skilled pilots - ship fittings might not be optimal (idiot pilots, very common) - range (fit a web on the crus f.ex) Theres lots of reasons the Taranis I go up against may not be able to kill me before I kill him. Its not just a black and white "the Taranis does the greatest damage!". When you have pulse lasers doing quite nice damage (sometimes comparable to blasters) at greater ranges than blasters, is that not exactly the definition of "balance" in this game? Nothing is supposed to be able to outdamage a blaster 1v1, but then the other turrets can play the range card which the blaster can't.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.03.08 10:46:00 - [335] Edited by: Nafri on 08/03/2005 10:53:21 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nafri no it was just that there was no need to make a decision when to fit a amarr ceptor, cause medium pulses were always the best you can think of when you reduce their ranges and make frigate size beams easier to fit, you should bring it back on line and beeing unique is mostly overpowered, especially when its unique flexible at the best ranges Once again you prove that you know ** all. 95% of crusader pilots fit Dual Light Pulse. Medium pulse is already the least used on amarr inties because of the high fitting requirements. It really only works on a Malediction as a sub-par Taranis imitation. If you can't bother to post correct information, why don't you just stop all together? doesnt change my point lets analyze my point: PULSE IS ALWAYS YOUR CHOICE TO FIT ahh ok, right the short range gun is always good to fit cause of its range now my suggestion: MAKE BEAMS USEABLE TO GIVE THEM A CHOICE ok now allow them to fit 2 different clases of guns dual pulse is the same with neutron, ion and electron blasters, gallente and matari ships need to make choice which range thy will fight, and which guns thy will fit, not like "will I fit neutron or ion blasters today?" sorry, and I wrote "you can think of" its like the neutron blaster is the best blaster you can think of on a taranis, but other than the amarrs the gallente could also desire to fit 150mm rails on their ceptors so please read my postings before you replay, thx Wanna fly with me?**
Nafri	Posted - 2005.03.08 10:48:00 - [336] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Nafri no it was just that there was no need to make a decision when to fit a amarr ceptor, cause medium pulses were always the best you can think of Dual Light Pulse 2. It allows you to fit a Heatsink 2. With the right skills you actually outdamage a Taranis, if the Taranis isn't fitting a dmg mod. Med Pulse 2 are too tight to fit. And everyone thats moaning about the small pulse range reduction, go do the math. You still outrange a Taranis. You also still do almost exactly the same amount of damage if you're not fitting a heatsink, or more if you do. Just means you have to get closer. Fun well my point was just that pulses are always best to fit, no matter what but on amarr ceptor and aussault you should also have the choice to fit beams or pulses, so make beams ***ble and the world would be much brighter Wanna fly with me?**
Nafri	Posted - 2005.03.08 10:50:00 - [337] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Phades So its balanced if umm the taranis doesnt want to do the most damage it can? I guess you can color me puzzled. Wouldnt that be akin to a thorax not using a mwd, or a armageddon not trying to maximise damage by overloading the lows with all damage mods? sigh - lower skilled pilots - ship fittings might not be optimal (idiot pilots, very common) - range (fit a web on the crus f.ex) Theres lots of reasons the Taranis I go up against may not be able to kill me before I kill him. Its not just a black and white "the Taranis does the greatest damage!". When you have pulse lasers doing quite nice damage (sometimes comparable to blasters) at greater ranges than blasters, is that not exactly the definition of "balance" in this game? Nothing is supposed to be able to outdamage a blaster 1v1, but then the other turrets can play the range card which the blaster can't. yeah and thats the point where the small pulse lasers where so overpowered thy had the damage, range and tracking you need to stay just out of webbing range and ***** all small range ceptors which couldnt keep up with your speed Wanna fly with me?**
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.08 11:04:00 - [338] Originally by: Nafri yeah and thats the point where the small pulse lasers where so overpowered thy had the damage, range and tracking you need to stay just out of webbing range and ******* all small range ceptors which couldnt keep up with your speed No. It was not overpowered. Mahhy said that Crusader w/ 4xDLP + 1 Damage Mod > Taranis w/ 3xIons + 0 Damage Mods This does not imply that DLP are overpowered, especially when the Taranis has the CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods if it wants to. The Crusader does not have enough CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 11:55:00 - [339] Originally by: Julien Derida Crusader w/ 4xDLP + 1 Damage Mod > Taranis w/ 3xIons + 0 Damage Mods Its oh-so-slightly more powerful than a Taranis with 3x Neutrons too. But by a very small margin. But as other people have said its not every Taranis you meet thats going to NOT be wearing a dmg mod. And we still have range too. Now its a decision to either fit for range and be a tackler without a lot of punch, or fit for damage, go close and use a web. If we had some improvements to the small beams we might have a bit more flexibility, but it doesn't seem that's going to be happening anytime soon.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:12:00 - [340] The range on webs is changing as well so it wont be an option for any laser user to retain a distance advantage against another pilot on the frig scale using the damaging frigs, not that there are any on the tech 1 level. I am fairly convinced that the lasers in general were designed to compete against both the best of the long and the short range alternatives, while keeping the ship's limitations in mind. Being forced to bring twice the number of ships to the table or be relegated to using the sub par damage ships just to attempt to keep distance is not a viable option either as the non damage orientated types are slower. As to why the pulses were fitted, is most likely due to the tracking advantage they had over beams, but the beams were more cap heavy in addition to being harder to fit. Idiocy shouldnt be the determining factor for balance, nor should skill or the lack there of. With being presented with many options for adaptation, the variance should balance out the choices, but in many cases there is no viable alternative.
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:37:00 - [341] comparing the dot of dlp to ions is kindof pointless... at close range the taranis' guns track fine, dlp dont Mostly harmless
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:41:00 - [342] Originally by: Grut comparing the dot of dlp to ions is kindof pointless... at close range the taranis' guns track fine, dlp dont Web.
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:46:00 - [343] Then if you begin to beat him out on raw dps, then he will warp out and just come back or change ships.... Right? Wasnt the entire style of the crusader a struggle of positioning to keep the other guy at bay or too close to be useful?
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:48:00 - [344] Originally by: Phades Then if you begin to beat him out on raw dps, then he will warp out and just come back or change ships.... Right? Wasnt the entire style of the crusader a struggle of positioning to keep the other guy at bay or too close to be useful? Or die before they warp. If people refuse to believe that a Crusader with a web can work, fine, obviously nothing will change that opinion. I'm done arguing this one...
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:53:00 - [345] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Grut comparing the dot of dlp to ions is kindof pointless... at close range the taranis' guns track fine, dlp dont Web. thats with a web Mostly harmless
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:54:00 - [346] Yep, the stupid people argument has been beat to death
fras	Posted - 2005.03.08 12:56:00 - [347] Originally by: mahhy Edited by: mahhy on 08/03/2005 08:56:14 Originally by: Phades Er, how is a 2.4 damage mod with a 2.7 rof base and a 25% damage bonus compare to a 3.375 damage mod with a 3 rof and a 50% damage bonus? Do the math. Its not just about base module attributes. Take into account all the skills like Rapid Fire, Gunnery, Small Energy/Hybrid, Surgical Strike, Small Pulse/Blaster Spec, Interceptor, Sharshooter, and Trajectory Analysis all at level 5 for both pilots, any implants you want and dmg mods. Then consider that the Crusader has 4 turrets, versus the Taranis 3 turrets. If the Taranis is not fitting a dmg mod (and since I'm not a Taranis pilot I have no idea how common this would be) the Crusader will outdamage it, while at the same time having greater range and an armor rep (again, don't know how common this is on Taranis') EDIT: Basically what I'm trying to point out is that in some situations the Crusader will be better than the Taranis, or any other Interceptor for that matter. Its not a gauruntee, its not going to happen every time, but then there isn't supposed to be a "I Win Every Time" fitting/button. If you assume equal skills between pilots then all you need to be concerned with is weapon stats, ship boni & slot loadout. All the other skill you mention affect each pilot equally(except controlled bursts maybe). This is the maths the way I see it: Per turret on a Punisher & an Incursus: Light neutron blaster II: 100% (1.5 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Medium pulse laser II: 68.57% (1.02857 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Per turret on a Crusader and Taranis: Light neutron blaster II: 100% (2.25 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Medium pulse laser II: 57.13% (1.2857125 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Fully fitted: Taranis: 3x Light neutron blaster II: 100% (6.75 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Crusader: 4x Medium pulse laser II: 76.19% (5.14285 normalised, only frig 5 considered) Remember that's completely theoretical, I've never seen a pvp crusader with 4x medium pulse II, but I have seen Taranis with 3x Light neutron II's (understandable as both guns require 12 pg but the crusader has 5 more pg & has an extra turret to fit). Anyway, theoritically if a crusader fit 4x medium pulse II & a damage mod(adds 24%) it would do roughly the same damage as a Taranis with 3x light neutron II and no damage mods. Of course there are other factors like the lasers extra range and the blasters more than double the tracking.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.08 13:25:00 - [348] Originally by: fras Anyway, theoritically if a crusader fit 4x medium pulse II & a damage mod(adds 24%) it would do roughly the same damage as a Taranis with 3x light neutron II and no damage mods. I was only doing the math for Dual Light Pulse 2's, never even considered Med Pulse 2's
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.08 13:28:00 - [349] being as someones doing the math might aswell use the right guns ion blaster 2's 1.125 normalised 0.336 tracking dual light pulse 2's 0.88889 normalised 0.219 tracking 200mm ac 2 0.924 normalised 0.315 tracking Normalised to shippies Taranis 3x1.5x1.125 5.0625 Crusader 4x1.25x0.88889 4.4445 with dmg mod 5.51118 Claw 3x0.924x1.5 4.158 + rl roughly 4.7 From the tracking, somethings broke in inty vs inty that will really drag down the crusaders dps. With all 4 highs filled the crusader is roughly as effective as the claw & nis, which both have a slot in hand. Mostly harmless
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.03.08 14:19:00 - [350] Can ccp plz show a graph contaning levels of damamge rof of each weapon is the following damage mods are put on. 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x. I beleive this will let ppl see how sniping tempests and gankegeddons get on with damage mods. It will also help balacning wepons rof/damage multipyer. I'm gonna mke a list asap and post a new topic on it. ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.03.08 14:25:00 - [351] Originally by: Grut being as someones doing the math might aswell use the right guns ion blaster 2's 1.125 normalised 0.336 tracking dual light pulse 2's 0.88889 normalised 0.219 tracking 200mm ac 2 0.924 normalised 0.315 tracking Normalised to shippies Taranis 3x1.5x1.125 5.0625 Crusader 4x1.25x0.88889 4.4445 with dmg mod 5.51118 Claw 3x0.924x1.5 4.158 + rl roughly 4.7 From the tracking, somethings broke in inty vs inty that will really drag down the crusaders dps. With all 4 highs filled the crusader is roughly as effective as the claw & nis, which both have a slot in hand. Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 -- "Its better to burn out then to fade away" - Kurgan
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.08 18:09:00 - [352] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 Yeah, that really ******* matters when you're going 4km/s ________________________________________________________
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.08 18:16:00 - [353] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 This is offset to a pretty large degree by the lower tracking and falloff of the laser, especially when using close-range ammo. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Nafri	Posted - 2005.03.08 18:47:00 - [354] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Nafri yeah and thats the point where the small pulse lasers where so overpowered thy had the damage, range and tracking you need to stay just out of webbing range and ***** all small range ceptors which couldnt keep up with your speed No. It was not overpowered. Mahhy said that Crusader w/ 4xDLP + 1 Damage Mod > Taranis w/ 3xIons + 0 Damage Mods This does not imply that DLP are overpowered, especially when the Taranis has the CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods if it wants to. The Crusader does not have enough CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods. ion blasters are much more risk to use Wanna fly with me?**
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.03.08 20:48:00 - [355] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 Yeah, that really ******* matters when you're going 4km/s Are u telling me optimals dont matter if u fighting ceptor vs ceptor? -- "Its better to burn out then to fade away" - Kurgan
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.08 23:12:00 - [356] Edited by: Grut on 08/03/2005 23:18:16 Edited by: Grut on 08/03/2005 23:11:56 Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 Yeah, that really ******* matters when you're going 4km/s Are u telling me optimals dont matter if u fighting ceptor vs ceptor? Your missing the nerf, 30% off and that optimals down to 5k. longer range ammo dosent work as you have to pop your target before he decideds to warp this leaves shorter range ammo which puts you in direct competition with acs & blasters. Though tbh all of this is redundent considering how uber bs are atm and how the prop changes look like boosting it further. bs ftw \0/ Mostly harmless
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.08 23:59:00 - [357] Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 Yeah, that really ******* matters when you're going 4km/s Are u telling me optimals dont matter if u fighting ceptor vs ceptor? What Grut said. ________________________________________________________
Nafri	Posted - 2005.03.09 01:31:00 - [358] Originally by: Grut Edited by: Grut on 08/03/2005 23:18:16 Edited by: Grut on 08/03/2005 23:11:56 Originally by: ElectroSister4 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: ElectroSister4 Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too Dual light pulse: 7560 Light ion blaster: 1500 Yeah, that really ***** matters when you're going 4km/s Are u telling me optimals dont matter if u fighting ceptor vs ceptor? Your missing the nerf, 30% off and that optimals down to 5k. longer range ammo dosent work as you have to pop your target before he decideds to warp this leaves shorter range ammo which puts you in direct competition with acs & blasters. Though tbh all of this is redundent considering how uber bs are atm and how the prop changes look like boosting it further. bs ftw \0/ longer range ammo works all you need is to stay out of webbing and in warp disurptor range normaly you can run the warp disurptor long enough to kill a ceptor and 5km is still out of blaster range Wanna fly with me?**
Phades	Posted - 2005.03.09 03:21:00 - [359] Not when the webs start to have a 36km range....
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.09 07:33:00 - [360] Originally by: Nafri all you need is to stay out of webbing and in warp disurptor range Just read the "R.I.P. Fun" thread by DigitalCommunist, and hes saying webs now have an optimal of 18km (no I haven't been on the test server yet). If thats the case, is there ANY frig/inty/assault that can operate effectively outside web range? Need to pull out my old Crow and check it, but I think pretty much all turret based frigs will 99% of the time be within web range now. That both levels the playing field, and makes short range setups more difficult.

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