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Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:15:00 - [241] Edited by: Parallax Error on 04/03/2005 15:16:02 Originally by: Bunny Wunny TBH blasters are supposed to be the best damage out of any guns, yet the lazers have better range and damage. whats with that? Lasers dont have better damage, the problem with blasters are that the fitting requirements are over the top. If you could actually fit like for like blasters and pulse lasers on Amarr and Gallente ships, they would be much more balanced imho.
ElectroSister4	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:20:00 - [242] Can all you kids stop whining! please With all fairness your guns are still the best, even with the current planned nerf of lasers... why cant you realize all of us non-laser dudes have had to use worse guns then you will use after the nerf for a long long time? Give each other cookies and milk and be happy instead, you still have the best guns -- "Its better to burn out then to fade away" - Kurgan
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:38:00 - [243] This is the stupidest nerf ever. Geddon with MPs and MF crystals still rapes a Blasterthron. Apoc with Tachyons and Radio(which was balanced) is now 30% weaker. WAY TO GO CCP!! Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:39:00 - [244] Originally by: Arbenowskee Pulses have to much range with their tracking. period. They are close version of lasers, like autocannons are close version of projectiles and blasters are close version of hybrids, not a medium range gun. And -28% percent of range isn't THAT much... they'll still have the best range of all close range guns by far. They used to be mid ranged guns, and were fine as mid ranged guns until they got tweaked. Problem with trying to turn pulse lasers into a close range gun is it'll never work unless you drop the optimal more and increase the fall off by a lot. Pulse lasers dont work as close range guns that are balanced with AC's and Blasters with their current stats on Sisi because their optimal+fall off range is altered too much by ammo changes.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:39:00 - [245] Originally by: Lallante This is the stupidest nerf ever. Geddon with MPs and MF crystals still rapes a Blasterthron. Apoc with Tachyons and Radio(which was balanced) is now 30% weaker. WAY TO GO CCP!! What about Tachyons with Microwave?
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.03.04 15:59:00 - [246] Originally by: Arbenowskee Pulses have to much range with their tracking. period. They are close version of lasers, like autocannons are close version of projectiles and blasters are close version of hybrids, not a medium range gun. And -28% percent of range isn't THAT much... they'll still have the best range of all close range guns by far. Yep, imo the optimal should have been cut even more - but the screams would be even louder then they are now =/
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:03:00 - [247] Originally by: Kayinan Malrean Originally by: mahhy Originally by: fras I had no idea dual pulses were being changed too. I went on the test server last night and my previous 14km+ range on dual light pulse II with radios has been dropped to 10km. 10km with Radio? Damnit. This is why I wanted Hammer to produce graphs using the DLP2. I wonder how good or bad my Crusader will be after this one Yuh, while everything else is being balanced, nobody seems to remember that half of the laser turrets are never, ever used for anything, because they are completely useless. I'd love to see those graphs as well, and reasoning behind how and why the crystal changes affect them the way they do. I mean, CCP must have taken this into account, rite? What is the deal with people who say everything is now useless, was useless, has been rendered useless, etc, etc. The only reason you view the other laser turrets as useless is because they are not all uber god mode freakin sick overpowered and abusable like the Mega Pulse is and has been. If lasers are "useless" then so is every other turret in the game because the truth is that even post nerf the mega pulse is still superior to the other turrets in it's class.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:16:00 - [248] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: fras I had no idea dual pulses were being changed too. I went on the test server last night and my previous 14km+ range on dual light pulse II with radios has been dropped to 10km. 10km with Radio? Damnit. This is why I wanted Hammer to produce graphs using the DLP2. I wonder how good or bad my Crusader will be after this one After testing, I've concluded that a Crusader with DLP2 is now a poor mans Taranis. It deals less damage, can't hit as close, and of course still has the old web/scram dilemma. A Taranis will now beat any Crusader foolish enough to fit DLP2 with relative ease. I've had a small amount of success with Dual Modulated Light Beams. If you run them alongside a couple of Tracking Enhancer IIs you can hit at 14km with UV. This leaves you with pretty favourable damage compared to DLP2 w/Radio pre-nerf. Of course, you can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs without a gimped setup due to CPU issues I think its ironic that this whole nerf hits Amarr Frigs way harder than the Gankageddons it was designed to counter. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:30:00 - [249] well here is what I think... first of all... I do like the proposed ammo changes what bugs me tho is the following... you need a certain amount of dot to kill someone... and I feel that exactly this issue is the reason why eg. certain ammo types were never used... eg. you know that your megathron with rails can kill the usual raven tank with antimatter, plutonium and uranium ammo... but you also do know that there is no chance at all to kill that usual raven tank with iridium, tungsten or iron ammo... its just not possible to do any harm with certain ammo types... why is this??? cuz this game is a dot race... which is the fault of the following 2 modules: shield booster armor repairer and I do think that exactly these 2 mods should be radically changed... tanking should work as the following: you need 5 mins to kill someone with antimatter ammo since iron ammo does exactly half the dmg... you would need 10 mins to kill the same target but currently you do 200 dmg/sec with antimatter ammo while the raven tanks 150 dmg/sec and now you do 100 dmg/sec with iron ammo while the raven still tanks 150 dmg/sec there is just no chance at all to ever kill that raven with iron ammo due to the way how tanking in eve works. so imo change the tanking system and I bet that you see many guys out there using different ammos... right now you have no other choice but to use the ammo which does enough dot to ***** the tank which very much limits you in your choice of ammo... think about it... Greetings Grim
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:37:00 - [250] Julien: Thats because the whole system for balancing turrets in the first place isn't very good. If as Hammer has suggested that themedium and large turrets are all extrapolated from the small turrets then theres your problem. The dynamics of frigate to frigate combat is vastly different from Cruiser to Cruiser or BS to BS. Upshot of this, is each size class of weapons should be balanced independantly of the other size classes. What you can't go doing is drawing conclusions from one weapon and assuming the same problems translate perfectly to the smaller 'clones' of that gun. Megapulse have a huge operating range and that creates a massive unbalance because battleships take a decent amount of time to move through that distance, hence getting hit alot. Medium Pulse aren't unbalanced because there are only 3 ranges in frigate combat anyway and also a frigate can travel the operating range of a medium pulse in very little time. Just for info the 3 ranges of frigates at the moment are <5km >10km and >20km
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:39:00 - [251] Edited by: Parallax Error on 04/03/2005 16:41:05 Originally by: Grim Vandal well here is what I think... first of all... I do like the proposed ammo changes what bugs me tho is the following... you need a certain amount of dot to kill someone... and I feel that exactly this issue is the reason why eg. certain ammo types were never used... eg. you know that your megathron with rails can kill the usual raven tank with antimatter, plutonium and uranium ammo... but you also do know that there is no chance at all to kill that usual raven tank with iridium, tungsten or iron ammo... its just not possible to do any harm with certain ammo types... why is this??? cuz this game is a dot race... which is the fault of the following 2 modules: shield booster armor repairer and I do think that exactly these 2 mods should be radically changed... tanking should work as the following: you need 5 mins to kill someone with antimatter ammo since iron ammo does exactly half the dmg... you would need 10 mins to kill the same target but currently you do 200 dmg/sec with antimatter ammo while the raven tanks 150 dmg/sec and now you do 100 dmg/sec with iron ammo while the raven still tanks 150 dmg/sec there is just no chance at all to ever kill that raven with iron ammo due to the way how tanking in eve works. so imo change the tanking system and I bet that you see many guys out there using different ammos... right now you have no other choice but to use the ammo which does enough dot to ***** the tank which very much limits you in your choice of ammo... think about it... That is an absolutely marvellous point. Maybe CCP should try something like that out on a closed system at their offices: hitpoints x10 and no reppers? Edit: Or.... taking damage degrades your resistances and repairers, boosters.. repair them upto their max? (with HP x10)
Drommy	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:46:00 - [252] not that i know here grim is coming from about hubrid ammo. it is relative to the subject. as stands, with microwave infared and radio, (6 pulse lasers with 2 aberlest torps) i dont do enough DOT to take down a gurista usurper and have a huge probelem with conquistidors. a shot at a mamoth for about half an hour b4 i gave up. and all of the npc's above keep range at about 50km. the only way i can get them effectively is getting into 25km (which i cant do cos there faster) and using uv (and drones) and then they go down slowly but shorely, MF is quickey, but its extremely hard to get that close. ( warp point missions i can just warp in at 15km. but deadspace missions are an **** solo for an apoc imo. now with damage being bought down further at long range solo i fear will be an imposibility _______________________________________________ A good leader takes their people where they want to go A great leader takes their people not where they necessarily want to go, but ought too.
thebold	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:50:00 - [253] Since im out of work ill post what i tried to earlier :) Hi All, My constructive feedback on the ammo changes à I would hope constructive to some :) Projectiles: Ok so Projectilesà The only type of unique weapon in the game, it has the ability to do all types of damage at as we can see by the changes nice damage. This makes the tempest one of the best damage dealers in the game, any ship trying to tank against it would need to cover the full spectrum instead of tanking it out with 1x Em 2x Thermal vs. a GankaGeddon for instance. I believe that Phased Plasma should be less in damage by 2 points to thermal and a addition 2 points to kinetic creating a hybrid equivalent. Hybrid: In the EVE Universe today all armour tanks specialize to anti EM, Thermal. The Hybrids loss of Kinetic damage to increase Thermal I believe is a massive degrade to all Blasterthron pilots in the game. The Kinetic damage is generally that special part of the ammo that gives you the advantage over a enemy armour tank, However we now get in close to do about 50% less damage onto a 80% Thermal Armour tank or Shield Tank. The use of other ammoÆs such as uranium work at larger ranges this gives the enemy the ability to use his close range Lasers/Projectile guns causing the Blasterthron to loose his close range advantage. However when it comes to Raven combat the reduction of Kinetic wouldnÆt be felt as a PVP raven with a 70%Anti Kinetic Tank creating the deadly balance of Thermal Damage as a raven shields are slightly weaker to Thermal this would give a slight advantage. Longer range ammoÆs seem to be balanced off rather nicely but those ammoÆs would only be used in a Rail not a Blaster, at least I donÆt know of a Blaster Pilot that sits 50km away shooting its prey without the ability to even web and scramble it. I think this change will cause much confusion to Blaster pilots and make them wonder why they bothered training Large Blaster Spec 5 or so for all those months. I think you could balance Antimatter by making it to values: Kinetic: 5 Thermal: 7 This will still give you your favour to Thermal damage and still give Blaster pilots the versatility of the damage they need. If you donÆt do this I will train Caladri Raven 5 and go get a Navy Raven instead because I wouldnÆt want to fly a ThermalÆAÆthron. Lasers: Your move to increase the EM damage from Amarr ships shouldnÆt create such a bad impact on the current GankaGeddons and ApocÆs of today. Why? The Universal 80/80% Thermal EM Tank, The 0% EM shields and basic 60% EM on all armours (Bar Mimtar) will still be there but making a lazer a beter shield killer than a armour killer. Your change to damage type is very slight the only thing to worry about is the slight adjustments in ranges of the crystals, That shouldnÆt cause so much of a issue. These ammoÆs hit very hard but they are very easy to tank against as they are so often used. Ships: Also I know you want to balance the ammo, however do you take into account actuall ship this ammo goes on. For instance, A Tempest: vast ranges of damage types at a total variety of ranges. The ROF is easily handled by the set of damage modÆs in the lows causing a stronger hit on the target. A Tempest has the option to have a shield tank as defense (Tier 2 BS yes but a Apoc wouldent be as effective as his lows are his defense). Compared to a GankaGeddon that has the option of full out damage onto a Mimtar ship with a shield tank when that Mimtar ship can hit harder and has a defensive advantage over a Armageddon that has no defence only Offence. Maybe this is balanced by the massive ROF MimtarÆs suffer today. Who knows this is where it gets complex and needs lots of graphs charts etcà Just my 2 cents. bold ============================================== We do the Blowing up thingy
CB Cyrix	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:51:00 - [254] Right mr CCP READ THIS. All three of your graphs have a major flaw. Take a look at them again before reading so you understand what im on about..... Right, you have missed one BIG facter in your graphs CAPACITOR USE. Three variables but only two shown, if you work the cap into the graph it looks normal. The crystals are set correct as they are, if you look at radio, you get loads of EM only damage, so when you hit a shield like on your first graph, ofcorse you will have high damage, coz its untanked, 7EM ONLY, so useless against armour, and anyone with a brain that shield tanks uses EM hardners, so then useless against shields too, so its fine. Plus you look and see EM causes the same damage as MW for instance, you might think woot, ill get EM coz its the same damage and works up to a longer range WRONG, MW uses less CAP. So with 3 variables, cap use, damage, and range, do a real graph on a ship with equal resist on every damage, then and only then can you see that the crystals are fine, you trade range for cap, or for multi you trade range and cap for damage, simple. Then the point of the meg-pulse, reduce the range by -15% and then its all fine, leave other lasers and crystals alone, and do ONE range change and your sorted. Easy fix. I have done graphs and other than MP having to much range, everything is ok the way it is, excluding hybrids being crap.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:53:00 - [255] Originally by: Sorja If you are about to fix lazers, please keep in mind: a) lazers don't use ammo, and so are cheap b) lazers don't use ammo, and so leave the cargo hold empty while others have to fill it up c) crystals are instant swap while other ammo need roughly 10 seconds to swap. Please keep in mind that there is no 'z' in Laser. It's an acronym and stands for: Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation But on a more serious note WTF does everyone keeping saying you can change crystals without delay? Perhaps all my turrets are defective but in order to change a crystal I have to deactivate the turret and wait for it's current cycle to end. I don't call this instantaneous. It takes several seconds before the turret is ready again. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.03.04 16:55:00 - [256] Originally by: Karol Kei I wonder if any one is seriously contesting that mega pulses need a change? Why not do just that, change megapulses, and leave the rest of the stuff alone as far as laser nerfing is concerned? Exactly. Speaking as a developer I can also only agree with an earlier poster that changing more than one thing at a time is bad news. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:32:00 - [257] Originally by: Parallax Error That is an absolutely marvellous point. Maybe CCP should try something like that out on a closed system at their offices: hitpoints x10 and no reppers? Edit: Or.... taking damage degrades your resistances and repairers, boosters.. repair them upto their max? (with HP x10) exactly what im up about... a few problems which arise from this: capacitor balance for offense and defense is screwed... what happens to cap injector depandant ships like the blasterthron... log off timer would need to be even longer and now the pros: 10x more hps would be another reason for insta's beeing removed ... shield recharge time could be made a viable attribute through this change... it doesnt matter how much dot you do, the only differnece is that a ship doing huge dot needs less time to kill someone compared to a ship with pretty low dot... after all it will be a matter of time instead a matter of hps restored each second... and afterall it would give every ammo type a reason to be used Greetings Grim
Deadzone	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:42:00 - [258] Edited by: Deadzone on 04/03/2005 17:44:35 Edited by: Deadzone on 04/03/2005 17:43:21 Edited by: Deadzone on 04/03/2005 17:42:22 Originally by: Lallante This is the stupidest nerf ever. Geddon with MPs and MF crystals still rapes a Blasterthron. Apoc with Tachyons and Radio(which was balanced) is now 30% weaker. WAY TO GO CCP!! Whats wrong Lallante, won't be able to pirate r@pe people as easily as before?? Now thats a shame. Let me shead a single tear for you. 'Just say no to pirate carebears'!! Vice-Admiral Executive Commanding Officer Military Command Hadead Drive Yards
Kayinan Malrean	Posted - 2005.03.04 17:45:00 - [259] Originally by: Niki Silver What is the deal with people who say everything is now useless, was useless, has been rendered useless, etc, etc. The only reason you view the other laser turrets as useless is because they are not all uber god mode freakin sick overpowered and abusable like the Mega Pulse is and has been. If lasers are "useless" then so is every other turret in the game because the truth is that even post nerf the mega pulse is still superior to the other turrets in it's class. What is so hard in admitting that these changes may not the best best solution? Is it a completely incomprehensible concept, that a solution that indeed does weaken Pulses does have unwanted side effects, and doesn't fix but on point of view in the problem field. What is so hard in admitting that while Pulses have been too strong, this isn't overall balancing. Instead, it breaks things that were moderately ok, it nerfs things that were already useless even further. Idea is good, changes are needed, but these changes barely make it half-way on the design board. Hope they'll think them through a few times more and try different perspectives as well.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.03.04 18:33:00 - [260] Originally by: Parallax Error Julien: Thats because the whole system for balancing turrets in the first place isn't very good. If as Hammer has suggested that themedium and large turrets are all extrapolated from the small turrets then theres your problem. The dynamics of frigate to frigate combat is vastly different from Cruiser to Cruiser or BS to BS. Upshot of this, is each size class of weapons should be balanced independantly of the other size classes. What you can't go doing is drawing conclusions from one weapon and assuming the same problems translate perfectly to the smaller 'clones' of that gun. Megapulse have a huge operating range and that creates a massive unbalance because battleships take a decent amount of time to move through that distance, hence getting hit alot. Medium Pulse aren't unbalanced because there are only 3 ranges in frigate combat anyway and also a frigate can travel the operating range of a medium pulse in very little time. Just for info the 3 ranges of frigates at the moment are <5km >10km and >20km Thankyou, that's exactly what I've been saying for the last few days. It's a shame hardly anyone else seems to understand. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.03.04 18:57:00 - [261] The vast majority of people complaining here, aren't saying don't nerf the megapulse. What is being said is this: A blanket change to every pulse laser is going to unbalance an awful lot of ships and setups that were reasonably well balanced. Yes, sort the megapulse out, but changing every other pulse laser? This change isn't going to do squat to sort out gankgeddons and is going to hurt other ships. Armageddons can get similar results using Dual Heavy Beams and the damage trade off isn't much. Armageddons can still use the equally damaging megapulse at a slightly closer range, thus making it harder for long range ships to hit.
Judas Jones	Posted - 2005.03.04 20:28:00 - [262] What he said, don't hurt the range cos of 1 over balanced gun, just look at the gun range in question, I.E Mega Pulse. why should the smaller versions and Beams be effective also. Don't really think anyone can realistically cry out that Mega Beam weapons are overpowered.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.03.04 20:30:00 - [263] Actually, I think that if the Devs look at the frigates powergrid and CPU as well as the friggy turret powergrid and CPU usage, then Amarr friggies will not be left so far behind. 40 PG on a Crusader and 35 on a Crow!? What kind of balance is that? Std. Launcher uses 3PG and Medium Pulse 11 (Light Neuts are even worse off)... Not that damage is remotely close, but purely by fitting this is wrong. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.03.04 20:37:00 - [264] Originally by: Ithildin Actually, I think that if the Devs look at the frigates powergrid and CPU as well as the friggy turret powergrid and CPU usage, then Amarr friggies will not be left so far behind. 40 PG on a Crusader and 35 on a Crow!? What kind of balance is that? Std. Launcher uses 3PG and Medium Pulse 11 (Light Neuts are even worse off)... Not that damage is remotely close, but purely by fitting this is wrong. was about to mention that aswell ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.03.04 21:18:00 - [265] oo btw. <-- Hybrid User ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Hanns	Posted - 2005.03.04 21:47:00 - [266] exactly what lasers are getting nerfed? all pulse lasers? or just medium/heavy/mega?
Galomier	Posted - 2005.03.04 22:16:00 - [267] All i have to say, is that please CCP, dont ignore this problem, we all know in our gut that lasers have been put on a pedistal and adorned with roses and shiney polish, while hybrids were kicked to the curb. Ih have been quietly hopeing things would change for some time now, and im excited someone from CCP has actually noticed. So please dont throw out this oportunity to make things right. oh and kaeten, you sig is hilarious = P.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.04 22:17:00 - [268] Originally by: Hanns exactly what lasers are getting nerfed? all pulse lasers? or just medium/heavy/mega? All Pulse lasers, and all because of the armageddon, yay for nice small tweaks \o/ ________________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.04 22:25:00 - [269] Edited by: Selim on 04/03/2005 22:26:05 All the 'big' (medium, heavy, mega) pulse lasers were unbalanced. Due to the range. Ammo was too. What needs to be fixed now? Well, an armageddon is still way too good, as its ridiculously easy to fit megapulse and 8 heatsinks on it. You can't fit a full rack of the best guns on most other ships in game... it should be fitting dual heavy pulse. As a counter to this, I think frigate and cruiser beam lasers need to be easier to fit.
Judas Jones	Posted - 2005.03.04 23:37:00 - [270] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Hanns exactly what lasers are getting nerfed? all pulse lasers? or just medium/heavy/mega? All Pulse lasers, and all because of the armageddon, yay for nice small tweaks \o/ Yep, not just the laser either, also the frequency crystal's are being chnaged also, now no laser wielding peep is gonna be able scratch the hull of another ship. Significantly reduced armor base damage across ALL crystal's. Yeah, that's a waste of skill training for me.

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