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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.03.03 09:52:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 03/03/2005 10:34:29
lol, this change puts the crusader and malediction as close range inty's... at this range the taranis will decimate them... and the crow will keep range...
And just so you know, no, small BEAMS are not good frigate weapons, they are nigh on impossible to fit, do **** poor dmg at range, and ontop of this they have poor tracking.
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Dred 'Morte
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Posted - 2005.03.03 10:08:00 -
[92]
im thinking here how am i going to NPC Hunt after this, i need to hit betwen 20 and 40 Km.
Hopefully, Crystals II will arrive soon, and i'll be able to make up for this change.
The ranged crystal dmg nerf is VERY bad, devs have no idea how bad really... But like i said, im going to train evrything to level 5, get tech II weaponry, and then i'll know the feeling of the loyal minmatar projectille users who soffered so much.
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Moadyb
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Posted - 2005.03.03 10:23:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/03/2005 09:27:45
Originally by: Moadyb Blah blah
Blah blah blah
Rod, please, you make it sound like lasers wtf pwns everything left and right. Could I interest you in a discussion about missiles in another thread?
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 10:41:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
All in all. The megapulse needed a change.
And I think it hasn't been finished yet. Not because ion blasters suck in comparison, because they don't aside from their cap use (I assume a webbed target, which will increase their dot reasonably in most cases). But because the megapulse still does way too much damage over way too much range. And more importantly, it is medium range.
I have't really been able to absorb all this yet, but lets just start here. It looks like the MP's optimal with MF has been cut to about 10km. Thats exactly what we all seemed to want in the last big thread. We also got the Radio crystal damage reduction, which was discussed previously. We also saw Hammer say that he might look at hybrids in the future regarding overall damage and cap use.
What more do you want?
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.03.03 10:52:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Moadyb
Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/03/2005 09:27:45
Originally by: Moadyb Blah blah
Blah blah blah
Rod, please, you make it sound like lasers wtf pwns everything left and right. Could I interest you in a discussion about missiles in another thread?
Well, in a comparison between a damage bonus ship like the arma and another damage bonus ship like the mega, they do actually. Old thread on megapulses hodl some of those numbers done by players. Would be a good read for people that don't get why others see a big issue with megapulses.
But in general I was referring to those megapulses. If you'd take a look at the numbers pre-nerf, and compensate for whatever you can think of in their defense, they still outperform by margins that are totally out of whack.
But then again, like I've said before. A limited out-of-whackness is fine with me, as long as it is not at MEDIUM range.
Medium range pwns. I wish I had the most damaging gun there. Then I'd pwn too. You see, i've asked this before:
imagine the 5 most common instances in which you have a BS v BS standoff, or any pvp fight involving BS's.
Do it objectively.
Now, imagine being in a amarr ship with old megapulses. You pick your target. At what range is it in those 5 cases ?
4 out of 5 in more or less ideal range for you right away ?
That's why medium range guns can't pwn. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.03.03 10:57:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/03/2005 11:01:07
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: Rod Blaine
All in all. The megapulse needed a change.
And I think it hasn't been finished yet. Not because ion blasters suck in comparison, because they don't aside from their cap use (I assume a webbed target, which will increase their dot reasonably in most cases). But because the megapulse still does way too much damage over way too much range. And more importantly, it is medium range.
I have't really been able to absorb all this yet, but lets just start here. It looks like the MP's optimal with MF has been cut to about 10km. Thats exactly what we all seemed to want in the last big thread. We also got the Radio crystal damage reduction, which was discussed previously. We also saw Hammer say that he might look at hybrids in the future regarding overall damage and cap use.
What more do you want?
Tbh, the optimal was cut by 28.something %. 28km base x 0.72 = 20.2 *1.2 for skills = 24.2km
radio: 24.2 x 1.6 = 38.7km MF: 12.1km
It sounds about right actually. You are right, the range reduction does seem enough. The fact that the graph hammer made does not include any bonuses nor the usual web a blasterboat carries makes for a bad look. And aside form that the figures are now close enough to make the usual blurring done by skills and setups matter more then the actual edge pulses still may or may not have.
I still want to see what happens to the actualy using of these guns tho. It should get reduced by alot in pvp in favour of the now relatively better beams. Let's see.
after all, tis more about the medium range domination then anything else for me. If they no longer are a no-brainer and we'd see less domination of emdium range by amarr ships, its fine with me.
But for now, I concede. Megapulses seem ok after these changes. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:01:00 -
[97]
just to reiterate, since my message is not completely clear.
This change will kill amarr frigs being used in combat, you need to be able to stay out of web range, with this change you cannot.
So in closing.
Nerfing megapulse = good Nerfing smallpulse = bad
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Thanit
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Altai Saker just to reiterate, since my message is not completely clear.
This change will kill amarr frigs being used in combat, you need to be able to stay out of web range, with this change you cannot.
So in closing.
Nerfing megapulse = good Nerfing smallpulse = bad
Small rails, small howies are as hard to fit as small beams, hevae worse tracking, and no better damage.
What is the problem again ?
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bsspewer
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:05:00 -
[99]
graphs are not the solution to the problem :)
look ma! it's a problem! I'll fix it sweety, gimmie some graph paper
hehe
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Thanit
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:08:00 -
[100]
Originally by: bsspewer graphs are not the solution to the problem :)
look ma! it's a problem! I'll fix it sweety, gimmie some graph paper
hehe
OMG
It's the "lets make a constructive post, oh wait i can't think of an argument" - guy.
Better call superman to deal with his limegreen words of evil 1!!ohnoesYAY
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:14:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Thanit
Small rails, small howies are as hard to fit as small beams, hevae worse tracking, and no better damage.
What is the problem again ?
Medium Beam Laser I: 16MW 20Tf 150mm Railgun I: 10MW 25Tf
You were saying?
(Remember that PG is far scarcer than CPU on a frig, even an Amarr one) ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
ElectroSister4
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:15:00 -
[102]
Originally by: bsspewer graphs are not the solution to the problem :)
look ma! it's a problem! I'll fix it sweety, gimmie some graph paper
hehe
Look ma! I make my text green so i can feel special! Graphs in this case are an excellent way to show the differences in attributes between the guns.
--
"Its better to burn out then to fade away" - Kurgan
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Thanit
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:17:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Thanit on 03/03/2005 11:17:12
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Thanit
Small rails, small howies are as hard to fit as small beams, hevae worse tracking, and no better damage.
What is the problem again ?
Medium Beam Laser I: 16MW 20Tf 150mm Railgun I: 10MW 25Tf
You were saying?
(Remember that PG is far scarcer than CPU on a frig, even an Amarr one)
grid comparison between frigs ? cpu comparison between frigs ?
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:23:00 -
[104]
Well, I have to admit mixed feelings at this point. Firstly, yay! I got it right! If my maths is correct, this reduces the base optimal of a mega pulse to 20km as I (and others, I won't try and take all the credit ) suggested. 'Fixing' long range crystals was also necessary.
Secondly, boohoo , my golden age of pulse lasers npcing is over. I know this change was necessary, which is why I have been supporting it for a long time, but that doesn't mean it really gives me happy feelings: I really like my pulse lasers.
Finally, a big thank you to Hammer. Mega pulses have caused a lot of discussion recently, and it has not been easy to separate the various sides looking a it from the 'omgwtfbbqnerf!', 'we want balance' and 'amarr4twleavemypulsesalone' points of view. I am quietly confident that this is not too far from the mark, and hope that people appreciate the results.
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:27:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Thanit grid comparison between frigs ? cpu comparison between frigs ?
Taranis: 35 grid/150 CPU Crusader: 40 grid/ 100 CPU
The Taranis has 50% more CPU than the Crusader. The Crusader has 14% more grid than the Taranis.
The 150mm Rail uses 25% more CPU than the Medium Beam. The Medium Beam laser uses 60% more grid than the 150mm Rail.
Can you see the imbalance yet? When Weapons Upgrades kicks in and reduces gun CPU needs even further, the problem becomes even greater. ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Michael Schumacher
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:34:00 -
[106]
plz plz plz plz plz Dont nerf medium and small lasers! They are fine!
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:42:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
after all, tis more about the medium range domination then anything else for me. If they no longer are a no-brainer and we'd see less domination of emdium range by amarr ships, its fine with me
One of the benefits of this I think is the inability to hit everything that jumps or warps in at 15 perfectly using the highest damaging ammo. Sit me in my gank'a'geddon right on a stargate and any BS that jumps thru or warps in at 15 is in perfect range currently for my most damaging crystals. Even at the 20km mark I could stick with MF. Now I need to rethink that
I'm starting to think that while these changes (especially the crystal ones) are gunna take me some time to get my head around, they seem pretty good so far.
So far though I do agree with everyone regarding the small Pulse turrets. Please for the love of god leave them alone. It seems so balanced right now, at least between inties (as an example). Theres a good chance my Crusader will kill someone in a Taranis, but its far from assured! It comes down to skills and the pilot in that situation, and that seems right.
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2005.03.03 12:41:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Gaius Kador on 03/03/2005 12:44:02 Aiii...
This will really hurt the frigate class pulses. Med turrets will hurt too, but not by far as much as the little ones :(
Edit: I cant help but to initially think Amarr frigs have been gimped by this, and I'll try to test this out on Singularity asap.
My gut feeling says its one big hurt tho... ----------------------------------------------
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.03.03 12:54:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Sorja on 03/03/2005 12:55:39
You won't probably love me for asking you this Hammer, but you could have some integral math on your graphs. I don't know the exact word in english, but it's the sign ∫ In other words, compute the surface that any curve encompasses. That's the only way to have an exact damage output comparison. For now, everybody says 'it looks like such and such'. That's not correct. There's no room for intuition in math.
If you remove the 9 various ranges and converts them to 3, you also remove the ability to choose your range accurately. And range is very important when you fit, for example, 125mm rails or 150. Especially when you fit several types of guns on a same ship, like a Cormorant, e. g.
If you are about to fix lazers, please keep in mind: a) lazers don't use ammo, and so are cheap b) lazers don't use ammo, and so leave the cargo hold empty while others have to fill it up c) crystals are instant swap while other ammo need roughly 10 seconds to swap.
When you compare a Blaster Cannon and a 350mm rail, you can see there's a huge hole between 10 and 17km, which is the range at which most skirmish fights take place. Megapulses, on the other hand, shine at that range. Since I read many complaints about Blaster Megathrons having issues getting in range, and heavy rails being uneffective, I think you might want to revise both blasters and rails so their damage is not so tightly related to range, or, even better but less likely, introduce a new rail that has the same properties as the megapulses.
When you have finished your work, could you point at your friend dev's that there's no Caldari ship that can use those shiny large guns effectively ?
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Jens Wu
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Posted - 2005.03.03 12:58:00 -
[110]
Well, all changes proposed are based on a mind set to equality between all races and players. That's fine in one way and will benefit the Noobs and lazy thinkers and of course the time-to-time players as well.
On the other hand, equalling out the weapon's behavior of all races will take out the need to think carefully about what sort of PvP/PvE battle style one wants to pursue and train skills accordingly.
IMHO, to make chances the same to all players, all we would need is an ingame tool, which will be able to draw the graphs we have been shown here (automatically considering the character's skills and current ship boni), to judge by ourselfs which waepon/race/skill to use. The tool should be available via a push button in the fittings screen. That would keep the diversity in the game AND make weapons differences much more transparent.
A standard set of tables showing the genaral graphs of weapon categories (without skills and ship boni considered) should be set up by the devs (also popping upon a push button) to show their main behavior as a reference starting point of all further thinking.
Having such a tool would make the the need for TomB to get out his nerf bat a very rare thing in the future (for weapons balancing at least).
The ingame tool shouldn't be too hard to implement, as there is already a dev's tool existing which did draw the graphs shown here.
BTW:
WE NEED A PROPER 2nd SCREEN OPTION NOW !!!
1st screen for HUD and gameplay, 2nd for all the communication windows and option screens (map, trade, wallet etc.). Like in Adobe Photoshop for example. Easily to be switched on and off in the ESC options screen.
It's about time !
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:07:00 -
[111]
Please can someone at CCP also make a graph of how these changes will affect beam lasers?
Tachyons and Megabeams already have problems engaging 1400mm-equipped ships at long range, and lowering the damage of radio crystals will make life harder.
As far as I'm concerned, this thread has the wrong title. It's not pulse lasers (and yes, they did need looking at) that are getting nerfed, but all lasers.
Nobody has seriously complained that beam lasers are overpowered, so why nerf them? Unless beam lasers get an increase in damage mod to compensate, I can see a lot of Apoc using snipers dumping their tachs in favour of 1400mms and 425mms. |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:20:00 -
[112]
Hammer, I'd really like to see the Small Turret graph comparing a Dual Light Pulse 2 with whatever it should be compared against in the Proj and Hybrid areas. I don't know anyone that really uses Med Pulses on interceptors.
Alternatively can you give us the math you used to create those graphs? I don't mind fooling around in Excel
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:29:00 -
[113]
Originally by: mahhy Hammer, I'd really like to see the Small Turret graph comparing a Dual Light Pulse 2 with whatever it should be compared against in the Proj and Hybrid areas. I don't know anyone that really uses Med Pulses on interceptors.
Alternatively can you give us the math you used to create those graphs? I don't mind fooling around in Excel
Seconded. Dual Light Pulse IIs with MF vs Blasters and ACs with short-range ammo would be great too. Of course, the formula would be the best of all . ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:34:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Hakera on 03/03/2005 13:36:27
by the looks of it, its just base ammo dmg*turret modifier graphed vs optimal/falloff range
Im not sure what difference T2 would make as T2 turret vs another T2 turret is the same thing as they are factored up by the same ratio.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:37:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 03/03/2005 13:34:19 by the looks of it, its just base ammo dmg*turret modifier graphed vs optimal/falloff range
Yes but its the math behind the falloff I'd be interested in.
Originally by: Hakera Im not sure what different T2 would make as T2 turret vs another T2 turret is the same thing as they are factored up by the same ratio.
T2 or T1, I don't really care, but my request was a bit selfish since I use almost entirely T2 gear now-a-days.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:43:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Hakera on 03/03/2005 13:44:37
Originally by: mahhy
Yes but its the math behind the falloff I'd be interested in.
just from visually looking at the graph
from optimal to falloff 1 = constant decay of 50%, so at 15k, 50% dmg
at optimal+falloff+falloff = approx same decay rate ~50% from 5hp/s to 0
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Doc Brown
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:09:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Sorja
You won't probably love me for asking you this Hammer, but you could have some integral math on your graphs. I don't know the exact word in english, but it's the sign ∫ In other words, compute the surface that any curve encompasses. That's the only way to have an exact damage output comparison. For now, everybody says 'it looks like such and such'. That's not correct. There's no room for intuition in math.
Yay! Somebody who thinks like I do.
If you don't have the actual formula do intregrate over, why not just count the number of pixels contained under the cruves in the graphs? Assuming similar scales on the graphs it'd give a close approximation. _________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:09:00 -
[118]
Hammerhead - more graphs please :) I think everyone wants more of them
How about
Rifter w/200mm auto Punisher w/ med pulses Incurses w/ neutron blasters Merlin w/ neutron blasters
all with lvl 4 skills
then same with long range so:
Rifter w/280mm howitzer Punisher w/ med beams Incurses w/ 150mm rails Merlin w/ 150mm rails
using relevent ammo
if you got time, show effect on the bs varients as well :)
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:36:00 -
[119]
If you've got the equation, and there is one, as well as the variables (which you choose according to what situation you're calculating) then it's easy to make the graphs in a proper math program such as Matlab.
What is the case when it comes to frigates compared to cruisers and battleships is that frigates are more or less even when it comes to powergrid and CPU. Powergrid mainly. This means that while it's easy to fit Megapulse on an Apoc, it's damned hard to fit them on a Punisher. As such, frigates are a chapter by themselves. --
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:47:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ithildin If you've got the equation, and there is one, as well as the variables (which you choose according to what situation you're calculating) then it's easy to make the graphs in a proper math program such as Matlab.
MatLab 4tw
Originally by: Ithildin
What is the case when it comes to frigates compared to cruisers and battleships is that frigates are more or less even when it comes to powergrid and CPU. Powergrid mainly. This means that while it's easy to fit Megapulse on an Apoc, it's damned hard to fit them on a Punisher. As such, frigates are a chapter by themselves.
Well frigates do have one of the more overpowered modules in game or the micro auxiliary power core. Even on a punisher it still gives 10/42*100 = 23.8% increase in grid. Then again you do waste one low slot and a little cpu. __________ Capacitor research |
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