First!

Warning points for users like this please.

Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first.

Especially for the CCP posters who have an unfair advantage in getting in first.

Well, to start with it would help if a thread about forum moderation (in general) actually listed the complete set of rules and guidelines supposedly used by the CCP and ISD moderators. For example, at the moment, based on personal observation of actual moderator actions, apparently it is ok to lock threads as duplicate without including a reference to the duplicated thread, or to provide a reference to the duplicated thread which is itself locked. :facepalm:

Cites to the above behaviors:
Locked as duplicate without reference to appropriate thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2040255#post2040255
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039860#post2039860

Locked as duplicate, directing user to another locked thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2039308#post2039308

(N.B. I already reported these posts a few days ago hoping they would be fixed.)

MDD

This will be addressed, but as we we do not discuss warnings and specific moderation actions on our forum, we cannot comment further on this.

Other off topic posts were removed. Please stay on topic and constructive, thank you.

Locking and linking to a locked thread is a no go and was somehow done in error which of course i apologize for. But you have to notice that the thread linked to was locked at a later date.

Keep using the report system for such infos, we are watching it.

Actually I had not noticed that the referenced thread was locked after the duplicate thread was locked. So Praetoxx if I've inadvertently and undeservedly painted you in an unflattering light, my apologies.

Eshtir, do you have any thoughts on how to avoid repeats of that sequence of events?

Good to know. Should I expect the reported posts to be corrected?

BTW, I don't want the original point of my post to be lost: Can we have, in this thread, a complete list of rules and guidelines which the moderators should be following? I say this because it is a bit hard to talk about moderation actions in general without that list, as I believe what would tend to happen is that absent the list, specific instances would be used (like I did above). Although I believe I was appropriately neutral and "meta" in this instance, you and both know that is highly unlikely to be the rule for other posters.

MDD

So why was my post removed? Because I gave the opinion that people who just post saying "First" and don't add anything to a discussion (in this case, what we should and should not moderate in general on the forum)?

It wasn't meant to be targeted at that individual poster, rather the idea that surely posts with "First" aren't helpful or needed. Warnings or deleting posts (or both) would be appropriate for first time offenders.

Of course if THIS is also discussing a specific moderation issue in your eyes I can always file a petition to get the answer, but I'd rather not as everyone has quoted my post anyway so I'm not too bothered about my point not being made.

The system locks any thread that hasnGÇÖt had any replies in the last 90 days, but I see some posts being locked as necro.

At what point is it considered a necro post?

Your point was very valid but Phantom simply wanted to have the discussion and conclusion covered in one post.

Okay here we go.

We have to face it that errors will happen, i can not making promises that it wont happen again. But rather i will say that as a lead i have feedback function within the team. So evaluation of certain actions and providing feedback for the team is vital here. This means that mails are get sent out to the whole team, explaining the situation and offering a different approach. They might also end with the words "This is a policy".

I appreciate that you want to deepen the discussion with our internal guidlines and policies. First and above all, our most important tool set are the forum rules. The second tool set available to the team is a policy document which is bound to the NDA (that we as ISD have signed) and has therefor restricted access.

Oy. Put your armor down; I'm not out for blood. I'm not so daft to think that extracting a promise of "never again" is likely or even worthwhile. I fully realize that moderation errors will continue to happen. I'm genuinely trying to have a conversation about what mechanics might help prevent a repeat of that sequence (because, as you acknowledge, a locked thread directing posters to another locked thread is undesirable). Perhaps I can ease your mind by throwing out the first obvious idea: before locking a thread, have the system report any other locked threads which refer (by URL) to the current thread. Obviously, this is predicated on the system having the ability to tell the moderator about those references. Obstacles: This ability probably doesn't currently exist, and it may not have enough importance behind it to get the manpower allocated to implement the ability. The automatic detection may not be foolproof. The moderators may fail to use such a report.


I will try to suppress my incredulity here; you're asking us to have a discussion of moderation in general without providing the current guidelines to discuss? Eshtir, I realize you are but a humble volunteer and this is not your decision to make. Please direct someone at CCP corporate (Gargant?) to look at this and re-evaluate whether keeping the current moderation guidelines under NDA is in the best interest.

MDD

No worries there. Im here for a very long time now and have been through much darker conversations.

Your idea sounds good, but if we lock a thread for being a duplicate one, we already know there is an existing one.

Regarding the policy document, the Community Team has it and it has their approval is all i can say for now. But you have my promise i will talk to CCP Gargant and the Volunteer Manager about this.

There are plenty of people in NPC corps posting in the COAD forums. Forum rules state this isn't allowed, are these posts being deleted and being warned (or their main being warned if they have used it to alt post)? If not does this need to start happening or does the rule need to change?

There are plenty of people in NPC corps posting in the COAD forums. Forum rules state this isn't allowed, are these posts being deleted and being warned (or their main being warned if they have used it to alt post)? If not does this need to start happening or does the rule need to change?

Please can you reconsider the 'no linking to killboards' thing? When sharing killmails, users have a choice between posting a long, hard-to-read killmail, or posting a short link to an easy-to-read website. I don't see any extra harm in linking to eve-kill instead of, say, evenews24. Posts that are a hyperlink only are contentless posts anyway.

Thanks. Just to be clear: I'm not asking for the entirety of the ISD policy document to be made public. Only the portions of it which refer to rules and guidelines for moderators' actions in the forums. It's difficult for us to make general comments about them when all we have are specific instances to cite.

MDD

It's not a good idea in general to publish internal guidelines on how to handle the various rule violations. If that would answer all the questions and eliminate the grey areas, we'd totally do it. But in reality, going into too many specifics only tends to make things worse for everyone because of the endless complexity of human behavior and creativity. It's hard for us to internally define once and for all how to interpret every rule in the book for every scenario, so trying it clear it up for everyone will probably blow up the planet or something.

P.p.s. Here-¦s a picture of CCP Gargant after he heard something about the benefits of drinking and moderation

There is a difference between discussing moderation in a general sense and discussing specific instances of moderation. The latter type should always be petitioned to us in the Community Team by selecting the Other Issues GÇô Community category. This will allow CCP staff to review what has occurred and hopefully answer any questions that might have been raised by moderation actions. The URL to file petitions is the following:

https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/MyPetitions.aspx

Hi MDD,

Just to stop you before you go very far with this.

As CCP Gargant stated, this thread is about the discussion of moderation in general, not specific cases.
He's said quite clearly what you need to do, if you've got a problem with a specific case of moderation: *snip*

*Let's not consider the absurd case of a ISD volunteer having no active normal player characters...

Yes, we realise that - I was just concerned that you were going spend a long time writing a constructive post, based on specific posts.

As you may know, I'm a lead in the CCL team, my job is to coach existing members, train new members, be a sounding board for tricky problems and before ISD Eshtir and the Community team, to be a voice of authority.

From my perspective, I can tell you that we're encouraged to be communicative, friendly, transparent and funny when it's appropriate. After all, we would much rather our CCL staff to be posting rather than moderating.

Our position is intended to be liaisons in the community more than it's custodians and the best way for us to achieve that is to be a part of the community.

I think you and I disagree on that last point. The ISD volunteers have (AFAIK) normal player characters with which to engage in non-moderator activities. The CCP staff, which you mention that you are encouraged to emulate, have less freedom to use normal player characters. And I do agree that the "communicative, friendly, transparent, and funny" are all worthy goals provided they are achieved within the confines of moderator activities.

On this specific post; we certainly do have normal player characters, but we're not permitted to be using them 'on the job' so to speak.

It's important to maintain detachment in that regard so we can't be accused of favouritism. It's also why we're not allowed to moderate posts that belong to or involve our character/s. corporation or alliance.

If you've not seen it, we held a seminar this weekend - this is the transcript. I like to think it's interesting reading!

*snip*
As you may know, I'm a lead in the CCL team, my job is to coach existing members, train new members, be a sounding board for tricky problems and before ISD Eshtir and the Community team, to be a voice of authority.
*snip*

I think the spam and the trolling is a problem, yes... but I also think the ISD has done a pretty poor job of moderating the forums all around. They delete posts and lock threads that are sometimes just funny, or sometimes a genuinely good topic of conversation (albeit sometimes controversial).

Wow. Talk about the blind leading the blind. You are one of the worst when it comes to deleting posts that are lightharted and funny. Your sense of humor is terrible. You really shouldn't use yours to gauge what constitutes "funny."

I mean who decides what is content on a general discussion forum..."general"

Making eachother mad in eve is also healty for a game that is all about conflict and community,

I've been using the "Report Post" flag to provide (what I hope is) corrective feedback on specific moderator actions. Although it is open-looped (I don't get feedback on how effective they, individually, are), for convenience it beats petitions hands down. I recommend it. General statements such as the above lack the specificity of which moderation actions you disagree with, and the comment gives you a chance to say how the moderation action should have been handled differently.

Now see, I'd call the above "unproductive personal attack." You can disagree with the moderator's apparent sense of humor (or lack thereof), but the moderator really has no one else's sense of humor from which to judge. The content of your message can be greatly simplified to: "you're a poor moderator -- go away." That is both extremely unlikely to happen and unlikely to effect any change in the moderating policy. In fact, in a more Machiavellian universe* that borders on evil trolling (making "unpleasant" moderation more likely).

If you genuinely want the moderation to change, you'll need to put forth the effort to compose useful suggestions as to how it could be better.

MDD

* One shudders at the mere hint of a thought of a more Machiavellian universe than Eve...

ISD Eshtir, Suvetar, CCP Gargant, Guard: You'll forgive me for jumping in here to respond to a post clearly directed at one or all of you, but I can't resist gimmes!


Simple answer: the forum owners. In this case, that's CCP hf., an Icelandic corporation. More elaborately, CCP hf., through her officers, has delegated that authority to the CCP Community team, and from them to the ISD moderators.


I find that claim unsupported and suspect on its face. Can you provide a more detailed, reasoned, post support it?

MDD

These Forums have been rendered un-usable by a corruptly motivated, unjust, dishonest, condescending, morally bankrupt agenda.

The meta game isn't supposed to be played against those that maintain the general health of the community. There really isn't a reason for it.

The reason this thread exists and has been sticky'd at the top of GD is because your assertion that ISD have been effective in "maintaining the health of the community" is in question.

Then they should go about it in a more proper business like nature and try to form their opinions from facts and real examples for their dislike and belief they are ineffective rather than just dressing up their distaste for moderation as orwellian/reich like a alliance political game.

Facts and real examples will be removed by moderators as personal attacks.

Then they should go about it in a more proper business like nature and try to form their opinions from facts and real examples for their dislike and belief they are ineffective rather than just dressing up their distaste for moderation as orwellian/reich like a alliance political game.

Welcome to having your intelligence under valued & underestimated.
Welcome to the process of Weeding Out undesirables, silencing dissenting opinion & permanently Banning those who simply won't shutup or fall into line.

*lots of stuff*

Edit : or to use moderation when and if really really needed ... (not sure why block spam topics, does it occupy GB on your hard disks ? ) always wondered that :P

Right. I get my post deleted if I get specific because it's viewed as a personal attack, but if I don't get specific my opinion is invalid because it wasn't substantiated with specifics. That about cover it?

"You're a poor moderator -- go away" (is) exactly what I am saying. The volunteer program does not work. The ISD's should "go away". CCP might actually have to pay someone to do the job because the ISD as it is isn't cutting it. That's my cold judgement of the ISD as an organization... an attempt to support my argument. If you are going to use an example you might have to get specific... but fine I'll speak in general terms: Fire the ISD and hire some pros.

I would like to float the idea that this level of 'moderation' was never needed, is totally superfluous & counter productive & is in fact destroying the health of the Community.

This is the last character I have to post with, soon I too will be silenced, how many others have gone the same way for minor infractions, speaking their minds & insulting ISD's after provocative locks & interjections? Many more just don't bother with GD anymore, it's a losing game, CCP wants us to accept hopelessness, give up, resign ourselves to this tyranny.

Look... everyone knows the rules.

So what is the point of merely locking thread after thread posted by the same group of accounts alt posting and adding a line like "thread locked for XXXXX reason"? Why would you need to explain it?

Better yet, if they are alt posting, just shame them. Post all of the account names and say "the following forum accounts were banned in connection with this thread: Char 1, char 2 char 3. Reason: racist language" You've stopped the troll... outed his accounts, and provided the reason so there are no illusions about what this or that behavior will get you.

I'll clarify a couple of points, to oil the wheels of debate so to speak.
We can't ban or warn, other than leaving a message in a thread.
*snip*
I hope this helps.

That wasn't a personal complaint specifically. The observation applies to you as well as the other ISDs, and it's definitely relevant to the conversation. No wonder people dislike the ISDs so much... you aren't moderating. You are taking things personally. You are trying to control the conversation. You (ISD) remove legitimate posts. Funny posts. You (ISD) often do this randomly based on personal preference and NOT on any actual guidelines. I want you (ISD) to do the job... but the manner in which you do it is biased and just makes the forums dry and tedious. I think using volunteers for it is a failure. The ISD is just too unprofessional.

~Gogela

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence*. Succinctly, what is your evidence that the health of the Eve community is in decline? What is your evidence that the present level of moderation is a factor in such decline?

The assertion that a community that survived for 8 years before an ISD CCL team & without Block available somehow all of a sudden couldn't survive without the constant handholding of a bunch of 'well meaning' volunteers running amok locking, editing, deleting nearly everything in sight is more than a little hard to swallow.

Again I say, the manifest function of this extreme solution to a problem that never really existed, is not the 'Health of the Community', this is purely about controlling thought, opinion & ideas on their Forum.

... this thread is a response to the fact that a certain degree of overmoderation did happen sometimes. As we have said, mistakes happen and sometimes we are wrong.

By doing this we are trying to give you binoculars to watch the watchers, so to speak.

Hope this helps

I am a bit annoyed by the



sign of all ISD posts.
Please stop.

Have a nice day,
See you soon,
Take care,
Fly safe,
Feel free to ask if you have anything else on your mind

ET
CETERA

Have a nice day,
See you soon,
Take care,
Fly safe,
Feel free to ask if you have anything else on your mind

ET
CETERA

They are allowed to have manners and be sociable. It's called being human.

I would like to float the idea that this level of 'moderation' was never needed, is totally superfluous & counter productive & is in fact destroying the health of the Community.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence*. Succinctly, what is your evidence that the health of the Eve community is in decline? What is your evidence that the present level of moderation is a factor in such decline?

Ok, firstly I detect smugness, so I'll try not to be too irritable.

I'm speaking from personal experience with the Forums, I used to enjoy the Forum experience & considered it representative of the community at large & good fun, entertaining & vibrant.

Now, definitely not. The quality of threads is in sharp decline as is the quality of the discussion & even when a good discussion does happen chances are it will be imposed upon by an ISD who will attempt to direct the conversation, warn players of possible 'rule violations' or simply lock it for whatever inane reason imaginable.

The new forums have the excellent Block function available

Humor does seem to be addressed with a bias. Several threads have been allowed to exist that would have been locked immediately if they had been started today.

Is there a process where a global moderator consensus can be applied to locking a humor thread? Would a dislike/like function for only the moderators be helpful in resolving this?

If you don't want to have a Humor Suspect taking off before getting a moderator consensus can be reached use a flag that locks the thread temporarily - one publicly visible.

ISD moderation is subject to petition, but I wonder if petitioning would really fix the unfairly locked threads problem because it would still be dependent on one person's sense of humor, which is definitely going to have culture bias in it.

These are two excellent observations. Firstly no matter whether it is a Community Rep or an ISD member, petitioning will always cause us to review what went on. If we find that something was done badly we make sure the people involved know about it. That should at least cause some awareness to that specific subject.

Secondly, humor. We are a very humorous bunch here at CCP as might have become evident by some of the tomfoolery we do. I must admit that we don't have a specific guide to what constitutes humor and what constitutes as a contentless contribution. That is one of the things I intend to have changed though.

The internet was an extreme solution to a problem that never really existed. Times change.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that this thread is a response to the fact that a certain degree of overmoderation did happen sometimes. As we have said, mistakes happen and sometimes we are wrong. By doing this we are trying to give you binoculars to watch the watchers, so to speak.

did

If a thread is contentless it would die out by itself... if people are responding, there is either an element of content or humor

That is a rather limited outlook. How often can and will a topic wind down to the same 3 or 4 people in an insult loop or rehashing the same info that's been said before for the past 20 pages? Specially rumor mills that incite arguments from false allegations. It may be funny for a bit to read the ridiculousness of it, yet it can confuse others as to the truth of it and shine an unwarranted bad light on CCP. They are not black-ops coverups but shouldn't spreading baseless allegations toward a company be moderated on their own forums?
A passive or overlooking attitude toward their forums can show a lack of care or respect to their consumer base. While others see a sneaky company covering up misdealings, or a lack of trust to the maturity of those on the forum. Then you have other negative thinking because "just the right people" are not part of the main moderation program. They wont be pleasing everyone with their decisions on humor or content.
No, you can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you just might find You get what you need.

How would they like it if I had mod powers?

If I posted as I do now and then had the gall to modify and delete other's posts, or any other regular poster for that matter. That is what seems to be happening now with these ISDs.

The working definition of trolling which has been adopted is so unnecessarily strict, that unless you delete almost all the threads you leave yourself open to the necessity of selective moderation, at the mercy of the mod's bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious.

Do you realize this is a game forum and not your job, courth or jail forum?
In my point of view you are doing quite the opposite than attracting people, if someone new reads your posts more than twice cuts his/her veins, boring!

But its your job to try and disparage and insult peoples point of view to the degree of mentioning others would try and commit suicide from reading them because they conflict with your own? What point does that serve the discussion?
Oh, it does serve as a good example of what kind of post can keep a topic afloat without an element of content or humor (personal preference of course).

It is pointless to argue with you , stay well.

Edit and I meant "job forum" "jail forum" or "courth forum" not that isnt your right to post,
Do you really think someone would really commit suicide by reading your posts?(might happen) lol. it was ironik, anyway
why do you take it so serious ? Not to offend you but you seems a bit angry at others, like you want to destroy everything that is fun,
I just expressed what i felt, so speak to me not "others" (even if used plural so sry for that), and
yes it might help if it's not only me who feels that about posters like you (note: dont take it personal I'm taking you just as an example of the direction these forums are taking).

I agree with Amber I don't see how any objective person could look at these forums and say with a straight face that they aren't over-moderated. It seems to me that practically every thread has an ISD posting in it, conducting some sort of subversion. As MailDeadDrop was saying, it's clear that the ISDs are conducting themselves and even cultivating a forum persona in ways completely inappropriate for their position.

If I posted as I do now and then had the gall to modify and delete other's posts, or any other regular poster for that matter. That is what seems to be happening now with these ISDs.

The working definition of trolling which has been adopted is so unnecessarily strict, that unless you delete almost all the threads you leave yourself open to the necessity of selective moderation, at the mercy of the mod's bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious.

The Devs like to say that they try to be "hands-off" as much as possible in-game.

Why in the world should it be any different on a FORUM, where we come to express ourselves?

Even a saint couldn't resist to get mad at you, now please stop talking to me.

You just try to drive people mad so that they maybe swear at you and get banned.

If these are the kind of people you people like, I'm not sure where the world is heading , lol.

You think?
By you mean past tense?
Sorry beg to differ.

The Devs like to say that they try to be "hands-off" as much as possible in-game.

Why in the world should it be any different on a FORUM, where we come to express ourselves?

The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community.

Do you realize this is a game forum and not your job, courth or jail forum? In my point of view you are doing quite the opposite than attracting people, if someone new reads your posts more than twice cuts his/her veins, boring!

It is pointless to argue with you , stay well.

Edit and I meant "job forum" "jail forum" or "courth forum" not that isnt your right to post,
Do you really think someone would really commit suicide by reading your posts?(might happen) lol. it was ironik,

Imagine a neighborhood, this neighborhood has a handful of police officers assigned to it. They generally look after everyone, make sure no criminal enterprises spring up and if an alarm goes off they respond. Everything has a general feeling of order but people barely notice they are there. Now imagine that all of a sudden one day volunteer positions open up for the job of "security guard", dozens of teenagers and young adults apply.

... while specifically stating we are not allowed to use examples in order to illuminate the ways in which you are wrong.

And you would defend this right? Since you seem to be such a big fan of selective moderation?

I will reiterate what I have said many times now since joining the Community Team. Post constructively, leave out unneeded insults and personal attacks, and bring something to the table and you can post to your hearts content.

To remark on your last paragraph, I'll quote CCP Gargant:

To remark on your last paragraph, I'll quote CCP Gargant:

I didnt think my last paragraph was an insult or attack... a little demanding maybe :p

I didn't think you did, sorry! I just meant to illustrate that the community can post where it wants as long as where it wants isn't a violation of the rules, is all!

Have you discussed allowing people to create Polls?

Have you discussed allowing people to create Polls?

.,.I like the reddit style of upvote/downvote karma...

Restricting voting from characters in non-player corporations will irritate those players who insist on remaining in non-player corporations (frequently die-hard carebears), so you (CCP et al.) would need to be prepared. But to my thinking it would simply be another inducement to get into a player corporation (just like the NPC tax rates).

Suvetar, I'll add that I, too, thought you were rebuking Skippermonkey. At least I did on the first reading, but I tend to read posts multiple times (that way all the voices in my head eventually get a turn...) so eventually I decided that maybe it wasn't a rebuke. I suppose that just demonstrates how what one writes can be so easily misunderstood.

Skippermonkey wrote: Have you discussed allowing people to create Polls?
I haven't personally - but I'm intrigued, what moderation issues do you think that might help resolve ?
In terms of scenarios, that kind of thing ?

Skippermonkeywrote: .,.I like the reddit style of upvote/downvote karma...
Downvoting/Karma is a great idea in principle, we're just concerned how to have it without it being gamed or frankly abused.

As satisfying as it would be to remove NPC corp players from voting, in the interests of fairness, they have to be included. The best reason for this thinking is they might be voting on something that influences their decision to stay in the NPC corp in the first place.

The only way i can see polls working is if they are restricted to 'one vote per account'

I too would like to see post counts though, there are times it would help us do our jobs too!

I too would like to see post counts though, there are times it would help us do our jobs too!

edit - in response to your above post, you could argue the case for 'authority figures' like ISD's and DEV's to be removed from the up/down votes all together

As for the players being subject to 'block voting', well, thats just a reality that people will have to accept

edit2 - in regards to the 'what would polls do for moderating', you might be able to gauge the public reception to ideas or behaivor with more clarity to see if it is a prevailing mood of the community or just a grumpy forum poster pushing his agenda to the front of the queue

I agree: just exclude CCP, GM, ISD, and perhaps CSM characters (*characters*!) from karma votes.

MDD

New board features can be its own whole topic because this can get a little passionate. The complexities in the hows, whys, whens of votes and what-not would be a bit convoluted to pan out for moderator discussion.

Moderators need the ability to "fork" posts out of a thread into their own thread.

when the OP creates a poll, they need to have the option of a system-imposed deadline

when the OP creates a poll, they need to have the option of a system-imposed deadline

I would argue that all polls need to have a short 'polling period' as the whole point is to capture the current prevailing mood.

There is little point in having a poll that is open for a year, as many things can happen in that timeframe.

I would suggest 7 day and 30 day polls

So what suggestions do people have about solving this? Do people think it's a big issue, even?

I ask as quite often there's a comment in such a duplicate saying "And you needed to make a new thread because?";
Not a nice response for anyone to get, really.

But we don't lock them because there's a Dev-blog. We lock them because there is already a thread dedicated to the subject.
If it's an an interesting subject for you guys to talk about then it's a *really* great topic for the developers to read about and that's why it's policy to co-ordinate all of that feedback into one place.

A long, thin strand of cotton, nylon, or other fibers used in sewing or weaving.

Open your mind to the possibility that a topic may have multiple facets which can encompass a broad range of ideas, able to support multiple threads. Do you know what a thread literally refers to?



Imagine a thread as an idea flowing out in discussion until it comes to it's conclusion or end. Wouldn't the discussion of multiple ideas interrupt this flow, even if they're in the same broader category?

Also, it's sort of astounding that you guys view the forum as existing SOLELY for your "feedback"

I know it may be difficult to see at first but discussions may exist simply because people have a common concurrent thought. Not everything which happens in other people's minds has to do with you. So just to sum up, yes CCP you are here trying to collect feedback, this does not mean everything here is in existence as feedback for you.

In the end though, as CCP Gargant has stated so clearly, moderation is a judgement call. In this case I think it's a very fair judgement call to say that a new topic called "I don't like heavy missile changes" is going to be relevant to the heavy missile changes comments thread.
We would either move said post to that thread (we have a special tool to merge threads) or we would lock the topic and leave a message.

Ideally we'd merge every thread but you might be surprised how many non-constructive topics we have to deal with.
Similarly, if the salient content of the topic is within it's subject, we can't merge it as you lose the subject.

I love Devs, I love Moderation...

I think eve forums should be more tolerant like they used to be. I like profanity and cusses.

My biggest gripe with the behavior of forum moderators at the moment is that I wish they wouldn't use their ISD characters to make on-topic posts - would prefer them to keep their identity as a player and as a moderator clearly separated.

As I said to MDD in an earlier post; our job is to liaise from the community to CCP - that would be a difficult thing to do if we weren't a part of the community.
*snip*
But please; this thread is here to discuss such things. What's the reason for this gripe ?

You, the player, should be part of the community. You, the forum custodian character, should have no opinions on the topics discussed, only on whether the postings comply with the rules. As soon as you, the forum custodian character, start to have opinions in favor of, or opposed to, the topics, then invariably the rest of us are going to suspect adverse bias moderation is afoot.

And as I already said earlier, CCP employees don't have that option: CCP hf....

Its pretty clear what is wrong.

The forums are now over moderated.
It used to be pretty entertaining to read - the occasional off topic/flame thread broke up the monotony. Conflict is more fun. Now the threads that should be locked, like the "Avatar barbie grabass threadnaughts" constantly fill half of the first page of GD. Against the rules, of course, but they simply exist because the ISDs are avid participants.

Really, this new ISD infested forum, much like the rest of EVE, is now soft and for pussies.
If you don't agree, you might as well suck a big one.

Hi Vera,

Can I ask you to qualify that sentiment please ?

[...]

But please; this thread is here to discuss such things. What's the reason for this gripe ?

As for those avatar threads you do realise 'Shock horror people are having fun on the forums without paying attention to me must WHARGARBLE' does not make for a valid protest. If you dont like them then dont participate in them, it really is that simple.

Would you rather volunteer's who engage with the community and offer a bit of content, or forum robots who apply the rules obliquely and ignore context ?

I'd rather you guys go away. It isn't as if you're adding any valuable content.

Please give me a robot moderator who only removes posts which are violent trolls and doesn't incessantly lock everything and post benign gibberish.

You guys are really annoying.

Edit: I mean honestly, do you think you're a valuable part of this community or is that just what you were told in order to encourage you to work for free? Are your posts and constant moderation making anything at all better or just annoying people?

A volunteer moderator, about as welcome as a volunteer cyst.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

Okay, so I probably have a different opinion to most people here, given I've seen things from both side of the fence.

Up until recently I was an EVE player, and a very active contributor to the EVE forums. I started playing in 2003, and immediately applied to be part of ISD CRC (Communications Relay Committee), which was the branch of ISD that was responsible for forum moderating in the early days of EVE. I served with ISD CRC for a number of years, along with a few people who are now working for CCP, in Community or otherwise. In ISD CRC, we used to follow the same ruleset that ISD CCL do today.

After a few years (somewhere during 2005 if I remember correctly), CRC was disbanded and CCP's Community team was founded. They became responsible for all forum moderation, but as the Community team grew and took on more responsibility in other parts such as taking care of fansites, doing promotional work and suchlike, forum moderation became minimal, and the rules were enforced in a far more relaxed manner. Some might say a too relaxed manner given what some people got away with.

So, after CCP Community took over moderation the old forums were shut down, and the new community forums we use now were set up and put into action. Recognizing the need for a more direct approach to moderating again, CCL was formed to make sure the forums stay clean. Please bear in mind that despite its pretty harsh and dark setting, EVE is an ESRB "Teen" rated game.

Lets look at the definition of a "Teen" rating from the ESRB :



While we all appreciate good humor and a little bad language is fine, what has been going on on these forums in the past has been far from teen rated, and far from acceptable.

While I agree personally that in some instances the moderation from the new CCL team has been a heavy handed, it has been justified and the vast majority of people who're complaining are people who have stepped out of line and who've been warned or temporarily banned for forum misconduct and are angry because they've been put in their place for crossing the line.

On the flip side of the coin as I said, moderation in some instances has been heavy handed in my personal opinion. The problem that we have here is that we're training an entirely new department of ISD. This kind of training is not something we can do in a closed environment. It needs to be done live, on the forums so that our moderators can learn how to react and deal with situations that arise.

Over time, things will stabilize and people will settle into their roles, but for now we're in a position where sometimes calls that are a little heavy handed be made. In the same respect, if people don't try to bend or break the rules then they have nothing to worry about when they come here to post because they won't do anything that invokes the requirement for moderation. My best advice to people is to think before they post, and make sure they're aware of the forum rules.

Everyone who uses these forums needs to refresh themselves with the Forum Rules. If you have any questions about them, then feel free to ask them in this thread and we'll reply and clarify them. However they're very straight forward and simply written, so they shouldn't be an issue.


One important thing that I will add :

Our ISD team are volunteers. They give up their time to assist CCP with their roles, whether they be CCL, STAR, ECAID, YARR or MERCURY. They are a cornerstone of our community relations, they do amazing work, and are a hugely valued asset to EVE and CCP.

I'm always in touch with our ISD volunteers, and People will learn to treat them with the same respect that they treat CCP employees. Those who don't, and persist with making personal attacks and threats, as well as berating and insulting them will be dealt with swiftly, and severely. I personally will have zero tolerance for people disrespecting our volunteers, and likewise I will have zero tolerance for EVE players disrespecting eachother and blatantly breaking the forum rules.

Personally, I have a very dark sense of humor, and I love nothing more than hearing stories of people getting their stuff blown up, or horrendous thieving, scamming and scheming shenanigans in EVE so long as they're within the game's rules.

I love the banter and fun that goes on here on the forums, and it makes EVE's community so much more awesome, but the rules are there for a reason, and while we want everyone to have fun and enjoy interacting with eachother, it needs to be done in a controlled and civil manner.

I know it's a concern to some people, but there are very good business reasons why CCP have (and indeed enforce) an ESRB rating.

Potentially losing the business of the whole of the North American continent is KindofABigDealGäó especially when it's just to allow a few people to space-swear.

Trust me, you don't need to revert to bad language to make your opinion of something apparent - just try and do it constructively.
If you really feel the need to call someone out because of their post then you can either post constructively:

"That's a bad Idea and you should feel bad"

Isn't

"That's a bad idea - because it would have this effect to XY and Z. What would you have instead?"

Is!

Also, if someone's made you mad then click that report button and let me and my team do our job; it's what we're here for!

"That's a bad Idea and you should feel bad"

I know it's a concern to some people, but there are very good business reasons why CCP have (and indeed enforce) an ESRB rating.

Potentially losing the business of the whole of the North American continent is KindofABigDealGäó especially when it's just to allow a few people to space-swear.

Someone might want to look at the don't pick on goons thread locked crap. Apparently it's not a problem unless it's goon. Pretty transparent.

So this thread is pointless? Just delete the post the question, questionable actions?

You and everyone else have been asked to avoid 'specific' actions in this thread, you know what you need to do if you think something needs investigating.

Thanks.

Edit: By specific, "don't pick on goons thread locked crap" is pretty specific.

No,

I deleted the off-topic , partially offensive post that once again brings into light you trying to bring the debate to discuss a specific topic.

If you've got some kind of agenda against CCL, you should remember that it's not the forum moderators that ban people.
If you're not going to report the threads that you 'claim' to bring our actions into disrepute, could that be because you know it won't stand up to investigation by CCP ?

If you continue this crusade against CCL without any good evidence, or continue to sling insults and allegations then it won't be CCL taking action, it'll be the community team.

I'm done you've killed the forums! I come here(pay) for fun, not to be harassed.

Someone might want to look at the don't pick on goons thread locked crap. Apparently it's not a problem unless it's goon. Pretty transparent.

You and everyone else have been asked to avoid 'specific' actions in this thread, you know what you need to do if you think something needs investigating.

Thanks.

Edit: By specific, "don't pick on goons thread locked crap" is pretty specific.

So this thread is pointless? Just delete the post that question, questionable actions?

Please bear in mind that despite its pretty harsh and dark setting, EVE is an ESRB "Teen" rated game.

Lets look at the definition of a "Teen" rating from the ESRB :



While we all appreciate good humor and a little bad language is fine, what has been going on on these forums in the past has been far from teen rated, and far from acceptable.

What is everyone's opinion on moderators noting on a post if the user gets banned or warned because of it?

Having multiple slots (on the front page of GD) constantly filled with multiple Avatar threadnaught and 'Like and get Likes' is annoying to quite a few people.

Vera:

I'll direct you to CCP Falcon's post about that
here

Do ESRB ratings address online-enabled game elements like player chat, player-generated content or downloadable music?

ESRB age ratings only address content created by the publisher and do not consider content that is created or introduced by individual players or other third parties when playing the game online. However, ESRB-rated games that can be played online with other players and facilitate exposure to user-generated content must display an Online Rating Notice that states: "Online Interactions Not Rated By The ESRB." This notice is intended to warn consumers about possible exposure to chat (text, audio, video) or other types of user-generated content (e.g., maps, skins) that have not been considered in the ESRB rating assignment. ESRB-rated mobile apps may display a similar notice regarding potential exposure to user-generated content, among other pertinent app elements.

Games that allow users to download songs not considered in the ESRB rating assignment will display the Music DLC Notice, which reads: "Music Downloads Not Rated By The ESRB." This content does not have to be submitted to ESRB for rating but the provider must display the Music DLC Notice and, if appropriate, an RIAA Parental Advisory logo prior to download or purchase.

These forum's are CCP hf.'s, and they're free to demand that posters behave however CCP hf wishes. But it does you and CCP hf no good for you to argue positions that fail to hold up to fact checking. As Vera pointed out, the ESRB rating applies only to content created by CCP. Content created by the players is explicitly disclaimed by CCP hf (legalese for "that's not us!"), so the ESRB rating does not apply. That doesn't mean that other web presence regulations/ratings wouldn't be applicable though.

MDD

There are rules, they will be followed, and they will be respected. Likewise, you will all learn to respect each other, and our ISD volunteers. Those who don't will sadly end up being on the bad end of a forum gag if they repeatedly choose to ignore the rules. Be it on their own heads.

I agree. I think CCL might have fewer irritated players (read: "moderation candidates") if we had a way to hide threads, similar to how we can hide the posts of a specific player. Something like an "anti-subscribe".

MDD

Exactly.
Please consult these threads:

"Like and get Likes"
Violates: Rule #17 All posts must be about or related to EVE online.

"Rate the avatar above you"
"What would you say if you woke up to the Avatar above you in bed" (Teen rated?)
"What is the avatar above you thinking"
"Hate the Avatar above you"

Lack of content and....

#14 Redundant threads will be deleted.

As a courtesy to others before beginning a new thread, please look to see if an active thread on that topic has already been established. If so, place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forum needlessly and many good ideas may be lost. Keep discussions about one topic to one thread only.

This!

Oh Yes, Hallelujah, This!

Being able to block/hide threads and/or posters would be a wonderful blessing.

Click the name of the poster under the avatar to the left of their post and select "Hide Posts".

Why isn't it possible to hide devposts?

Well, I suppose my first thought is "what is the purpose of making those actions public?"

1. Public shaming will reduce recurrence for that character/player
2. Public shaming will reduce copycat offences
3. Public announcement will make it easier for the remaining players to "learn by example" those actions which are out-of-bounds

Maybe there are some other potential positives I don't realize.

Potential negatives:

1. "Public shaming" becomes a goal for a subset of players/characters, causing intentional rule breaking
2. Public acknowledgement encourages public debate over the specific moderation action (CCP believes this is undesirable)
3. More work for CCP (ISD neither bans nor warns players; that is strictly the responsibility of the CCP Community team)

From the above, I see no compelling reason to make a ban or a warning public.

Inquisitor Kitchner, do you have some point I've overlooked?

MDD

I didn't say they ban sales of mature games - it's just a self policed rating system that is taken seriously by the majority of the games publishers that operate there.

Click the name of the poster under the avatar to the left of their post and select "Hide Posts".

In terms of the public debate over moderation, it may increase debate in the short term, which means extra work closing threads and telling people to file petitions however isn't the point that CCP wants feedback? Over time as the warning/banning or whatever would become more in line with what the community wants and therefore less debate would occur.

Also I don't know if there's a technical reason why it isn't done but I'm all in favour of temporary read only bans as punishments for terrible posters.