Storing the settings for SMB and fleet hangars on the server:
The above mentioned settings for SMB and fleet hangars are now stored on the server and they stay always on the ship (as long as it is not repackaged). It is no longer necessary to re-configure the ship after a jump or after a relog. Be careful when boarding a ship from your corp mate or similar - it will be using the settings, which he set.

Storing the forcefield password of ships on the server
Forcefield passwords are now stored on the server. But: We are currently working on another iteration of this to improve the consistency. Please do not send bugreports about this yet. ;)

Storing the "lock items" setting for audit log containers on the server
The "lock items" setting on audit log containers is no longer a personal setting, but it is stored on the server and applying to all users. The new default setting is "unlocked". In corporation hangars the role "Configure .

Storing the "lock items" setting for audit log containers on the server
The "lock items" setting on audit log containers is no longer a personal setting, but it is stored on the server and applying to all users. The new default setting is "unlocked". In corporation hangars the role "Config Equipment" is needed to change the setting (assuming no password is set)..

Those divisons on the carrier hangers were kinda useful btw.

Corporation hangars on capital ships and Orcas have been converted into fleet hangars. These fleet hangars have no divisions and corp roles are irrelevant. The size of the fleet hangar is the same as the old corp hangar and all items are moved from the corp hangar to the fleet hangar at deployment of the patch.

1. Separate access options for SMB and Fleet hangar
2. Do not remove divisions from the fleet hangar.

Corp members can access both the SMB and the fleet hangar with the setting "Allow corp member usage"
Fleet members can access both the SMB and the fleet hangar with the setting "Allow fleet member usage"

I disagree. The current mechanism being tested is simpler. Simpler = better IMO.

1. Separate access options for SMB and Fleet hangar
2. Do not remove divisions from the fleet hangar.

Fleet hangars:
Corporation hangars on capital ships and Orcas have been converted into fleet hangars. These fleet hangars have no divisions and corp roles are irrelevant. The size of the fleet hangar is the same as the old corp hangar and all items are moved from the corp hangar to the fleet hangar at deployment of the patch.

Storing the forcefield password of ships on the server
Forcefield passwords are now stored on the server. But: We are currently working on another iteration of this to improve the consistency. Please do not send bugreports about this yet. ;)

I disagree. The current mechanism being tested is simpler. Simpler = better IMO.

I guess this also means that items in the fleet hangars can now be scanned.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

Sorry I didn't realize a bunch of you were insane and just lugging around valuable equipment in capital hangers 24/7 for whatever reason instead of either keeping them locked away in stations/POS hangers or actively using them. Guess I'm a weirdo and put my toys away when I'm not using them?

Sorry I didn't realize a bunch of you were insane and just lugging around valuable equipment in capital hangers 24/7 for whatever reason instead of either keeping them locked away in stations/POS hangers or actively using them. Guess I'm a weirdo and put my toys away when I'm not using them?

I've spent enough time in the S&I window, POSes, PI, and the such to stop trying to meticulously place everything in perfect little stacks. Waste of effort, truly. I just fill things up and hit build/transfer/whatever until everything's done and move on with my day.

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

It's more than just sorting. Divisions gave a way to restrict access to certain items as without the roles to see certain divisions you could not take from them either.

Sorry I didn't realize a bunch of you were insane and just lugging around valuable equipment in capital hangers 24/7 for whatever reason instead of either keeping them locked away in stations/POS hangers or actively using them. Guess I'm a weirdo and put my toys away when I'm not using them?

" These fleet hangars have no divisions and corp roles are irrelevant."

Wait, so now there is no way to sort/order items between different divisions? Seriously this is 1/2 the reason the corp hangers on the Orca were so great, since there has yet to be any type of container of a descent size to use for this. This just seems like a ridiculous change.

So now when trying to find mining crystals in the orca, or sorting ship fittings (one division for ammo, crystals, drones, one for mods, 1 for ore, etc) we will be stuck with one large blog crap view?

:words:

"Will we be able to drop items *into* a fleet hangar if the box isn't checked?" - No, you will be unable to open the fleet hangar.

[/list]

Mate, this was a wonderful feature that a lot of capital and super capital pilots used. Why did Team Gridlock have to go and gut it?

Divisions: I am afraid that it would be very difficult to bring them back. I will discuss on Monday with the team, if we could find any good alternatives.

Forcefield password: They are not being transferred to other pilots. We are currently changing the way of how this is being enforced (Probably by storing the password on the character and not on the ship).

Separate access options for SMB and Fleet hangar: I will discuss this on Monday with the team.

"Will we be able to drop items *into* a fleet hangar if the box isn't checked?" - No, you will be unable to open the fleet hangar.

* "Will we be able to drop items *into* a fleet hangar if the box isn't checked?" - No, you will be unable to open the fleet hangar.

This is really a key feature of the corp hangars that needs to be retained- otherwise most will probably just no longer allow access and any work put into this will go unappreciated. Difficult, but necessary as both PVP and PVAsteroid are quite unhappy with this particular change.

We discussed these changes with the CSM

I'm just blown away that you didn't consider the fact that people STEAL THINGS IN EVE as it is, and you're giving us no granularity in controlling that.

...
there are so many good ideas here like the one with diffrent access levels for fleet or corp or just you personal - that's the way to go I think.
Would be nice to get you're feedback on monday.

"These fleet hangars have no divisions" Are you kidding me CCP? Its the only way I had, to organise the 100s of items carriers have to carry.

Some people have suggested using cans to replace divisions in the fleet hangar, on tranquility a can cannot be used when it is in a corp hangar in space. On duality I took1 of every can I could find, put them in my fleet hangar and undocked my carrier http://i.imgur.com/Lx3Xk.jpg.

Those filters don't let me select a group of modules to refit with.

It is clear to us, that we need to improve something in regards to the lost divisions and the simplified access-settings and I promise to post here on Monday after I had a talk with the team. I cannot promise, that we find a solution on Monday, but we'll try our best.

I personally like some of the posted suggestions a lot, but I am neither a programmer nor a game designer. ;)

Divisions: I am afraid that it would be very difficult to bring them back. I will discuss on Monday with the team, if we could find any good alternatives.

Bring them back? These changes are not on tranq. Just throw the fleet hangar idea in the waste bin and say "We listened to our players, for once."

Because standing still and not iterating on the already dated feeling UI is what Eve needs for it's next 10 years.

There is a difference between iterating on functionality and outright removing it. You never take functionality away.

When people wonder "Do you really play this game?"... these kinds of feature changes are why.

When people wonder "Do you really play this game?"... these kinds of feature changes are why.

Hey all,

Short update: We had some discussions today, but our programmer for these changes was not in the office today, so we have to wait with any decisions. I'll post here as soon as anything is decided.

A short explanation for the fleet hangar changes from my point of view: Why are doing this and removing a feature (divisions)?
The concept of having corp hangars on personal ships had some benefits, but it was a constant source of bugs and inconsistencies and it made changes to related features more difficult. For many players (and devs ) it was also quite confusing which rules and roles apply exactly in which case. After quite some internal whining about bugs and inconsistencies it was decided to rework the whole system and convert the corporation hangars into fleet hangars - with the goal to improve the experience for all players. Unfortunately we underestimated the current usage of the corp hangars - so we need to fix this part.

Many of us play the game, but we cannot cover all parts in the game in the same extent. I'm personally playing the game quite a bit (and since beta) and I have some experience with capital ships - but I am for example lacking experience with super capitals (only used them on test servers). This is why these feedback threads are really important. It might have been good to get feedback form your guys before starting to code the changes - but it's at least better to get the feedback now than after the changes are on TQ.

Hey folks.

Being the guy writing this code, I think I should chime in a bit (disclaimer: I haven't read through the whole thread yet).

The corp hangars on ships code had to go. Sorry, but that's simply the reality of the matter. It's been broken since it was first put in the game and was made completely unfixable when fleet member access was added to the mix. And by broken I mean both design and implementation. Corp roles clashed and were inconsistent between usages, there was no way for the client to reliably know if it could access another players ship so it had to guess and handle errors (you can probably imagine how healthy and correct that was most of the time), you could put stuff in without knowing that you couldn't take it back and the list just kept growing. Every time someone fixed a bug in this code, at least two new bugs surfaced, usually within either POS corp hangar arrays or offices in stations as all 3 of them shared the same codebase. It. Had. To. Go.

So, taking as a given that we could no longer use the same code for the ships corp hangars as the other types, then the options really boil down to either a) rewrite the corp hangars on ships seperetaly, but keep the corp hangars concept, but not share the code with the other two types of corp hangars, or b) rethink the functionality. Having two almost identical corp-hangars implementations, except for a bunch of special cases, didn't ring particularly well with the engineer in me and having to construct some resemblance of sanity and to avoid code-duplication, either through inheritance or composition while doing it wasn't appealing either.

So, after asking around, both internally, via the CSM and within the player community where I know people, it was generally agreed that fleet hangars were the way to go.

I'm absolutely not dismissing any of your criticisms here, merely explaining why a change had to happen. We're putting significant effort these days to try to clean up some of the really bad code which has accumulated over the years that no-one dares touch anymore (this, crimewatch, POSes are getting some rethink Soon(tm)) because of the certain breakage said touching will cause.

That said, we can't please everybody at the same time, but we'll do our best to address your concerns wrt. the change in functionality here. We've already made a few changes to address stuff raised in this thread, but I'll leave it to CCP Habakuk and Grayscale to detail those. Keep watching this space....

Cheers.

Thank you for taking the time to provide your reasoning. I think that everyone does agree that the corporate hangar system is very unwieldy and unnecessarily confusing, however there are two main issues that come up: the need for efficient organization in these large spaces, and the need for granularity of access control.

The currently proposed system leaves capital pilots unable to efficiently organize the modules in their rather large storage spaces. Containers are an unwieldy and as has been stated currently unusable method of achieving this- that someone could simply take the container complicates things even more. In fact, under the newly proposed system there would be *no* effective way to organize. While it may seem that the inventory system allows for this, it's unfortunately inadequate in high-pressure situations such as an incoming doomsday hit or needing to refit from a buffer fit to a triage fit in pantheon tactics. The Corporate Hangar system's divisions however do allow this effectively and efficiently.

The second issue of access control is rather important as cap sized modules have to be stored in the Hangars due to their size. While their size may be somewhat of a deterrent to theft, it would still be possible for fleet or corp members to remove these vital modules under the proposed system. The ability to store these high value modules in a division inaccessible- or at least only accessible if the pilot wishes- by others is a necessity for capital ship pilots.

Due to the need to store the large modules and the need to quickly refit as necessary, many capital pilots store their modules in the various divisions provided by the Corporate Hangar system. Having the only option for allowing fleet/corp members to grab a ship from the SMB or grab a necessary module out of the Hangar be one in the same *and* providing those members with free reign over the high value modules will mean that users will be at least hesitant to even allow access and at worst will simply never allow the access.

So while many celebrate being freed from the confusing ties to corporate roles, we simply cannot accept the currently proposed system.

A system that would both maintain the functionality necessary for capital pilots and would free the Hangar system from the ties to corporate roles would be to have several divisions similar to the Corporate System, but with the control options of your proposed system. Have these divisions access be controlled individually- NOT tied to the SMB access, NOT tied to eachother's access, and definitely NOT tied to corporate roles. It may seem at first glance that such a system would just be recreating the Corporate Hangar system and would lack elegance, but it would both free users from the abysmal Corporate Hangar system *and* maintain the functions necessary for capital pilots to even use a new system and not simply fall into never allowing access (which would mean a lot more wasted effort on your part if your users were to not even use the system)

Hey folks.

Being the guy writing this code, I think I should chime in a bit (disclaimer: I haven't read through the whole thread yet).

The corp hangars on ships code had to go. Sorry, but that's simply the reality of the matter. It's been broken since it was first put in the game and was made completely unfixable when fleet member access was added to the mix. And by broken I mean both design and implementation. Corp roles clashed and were inconsistent between usages, there was no way for the client to reliably know if it could access another players ship so it had to guess and handle errors (you can probably imagine how healthy and correct that was most of the time), you could put stuff in without knowing that you couldn't take it back and the list just kept growing. Every time someone fixed a bug in this code, at least two new bugs surfaced, usually within either POS corp hangar arrays or offices in stations as all 3 of them shared the same codebase. It. Had. To. Go.

So, taking as a given that we could no longer use the same code for the ships corp hangars as the other types, then the options really boil down to either a) rewrite the corp hangars on ships seperetaly, but keep the corp hangars concept, but not share the code with the other two types of corp hangars, or b) rethink the functionality. Having two almost identical corp-hangars implementations, except for a bunch of special cases, didn't ring particularly well with the engineer in me and having to construct some resemblance of sanity and to avoid code-duplication, either through inheritance or composition while doing it wasn't appealing either.

So, after asking around, both internally, via the CSM and within the player community where I know people, it was generally agreed that fleet hangars were the way to go.

I'm absolutely not dismissing any of your criticisms here, merely explaining why a change had to happen. We're putting significant effort these days to try to clean up some of the really bad code which has accumulated over the years that no-one dares touch anymore (this, crimewatch, POSes are getting some rethink Soon(tm)) because of the certain breakage said touching will cause.

That said, we can't please everybody at the same time, but we'll do our best to address your concerns wrt. the change in functionality here. We've already made a few changes to address stuff raised in this thread, but I'll leave it to CCP Habakuk and Grayscale to detail those. Keep watching this space....

Cheers.

Hey folks.

Being the guy writing this code, I think I should chime in a bit (disclaimer: I haven't read through the whole thread yet).

The corp hangars on ships code had to go. Sorry, but that's simply the reality of the matter. It's been broken since it was first put in the game and was made completely unfixable when fleet member access was added to the mix. And by broken I mean both design and implementation. Corp roles clashed and were inconsistent between usages, there was no way for the client to reliably know if it could access another players ship so it had to guess and handle errors (you can probably imagine how healthy and correct that was most of the time), you could put stuff in without knowing that you couldn't take it back and the list just kept growing. Every time someone fixed a bug in this code, at least two new bugs surfaced, usually within either POS corp hangar arrays or offices in stations as all 3 of them shared the same codebase. It. Had. To. Go.

So, taking as a given that we could no longer use the same code for the ships corp hangars as the other types, then the options really boil down to either a) rewrite the corp hangars on ships seperetaly, but keep the corp hangars concept, but not share the code with the other two types of corp hangars, or b) rethink the functionality. Having two almost identical corp-hangars implementations, except for a bunch of special cases, didn't ring particularly well with the engineer in me and having to construct some resemblance of sanity and to avoid code-duplication, either through inheritance or composition while doing it wasn't appealing either.

So, after asking around, both internally, via the CSM and within the player community where I know people, it was generally agreed that fleet hangars were the way to go.

I'm absolutely not dismissing any of your criticisms here, merely explaining why a change had to happen. We're putting significant effort these days to try to clean up some of the really bad code which has accumulated over the years that no-one dares touch anymore (this, crimewatch, POSes are getting some rethink Soon(tm)) because of the certain breakage said touching will cause.

That said, we can't please everybody at the same time, but we'll do our best to address your concerns wrt. the change in functionality here. We've already made a few changes to address stuff raised in this thread, but I'll leave it to CCP Habakuk and Grayscale to detail those. Keep watching this space....

Cheers.

Hey folks.

Being the guy writing this code, I think I should chime in a bit (disclaimer: I haven't read through the whole thread yet).

The corp hangars on ships code had to go. Sorry, but that's simply the reality of the matter. It's been broken since it was first put in the game and was made completely unfixable when fleet member access was added to the mix. And by broken I mean both design and implementation. Corp roles clashed and were inconsistent between usages, there was no way for the client to reliably know if it could access another players ship so it had to guess and handle errors (you can probably imagine how healthy and correct that was most of the time), you could put stuff in without knowing that you couldn't take it back and the list just kept growing. Every time someone fixed a bug in this code, at least two new bugs surfaced, usually within either POS corp hangar arrays or offices in stations as all 3 of them shared the same codebase. It. Had. To. Go.

So, taking as a given that we could no longer use the same code for the ships corp hangars as the other types, then the options really boil down to either a) rewrite the corp hangars on ships seperetaly, but keep the corp hangars concept, but not share the code with the other two types of corp hangars, or b) rethink the functionality. Having two almost identical corp-hangars implementations, except for a bunch of special cases, didn't ring particularly well with the engineer in me and having to construct some resemblance of sanity and to avoid code-duplication, either through inheritance or composition while doing it wasn't appealing either.

So, after asking around, both internally, via the CSM and within the player community where I know people, it was generally agreed that fleet hangars were the way to go.

I'm absolutely not dismissing any of your criticisms here, merely explaining why a change had to happen. We're putting significant effort these days to try to clean up some of the really bad code which has accumulated over the years that no-one dares touch anymore (this, crimewatch, POSes are getting some rethink Soon(tm)) because of the certain breakage said touching will cause.

That said, we can't please everybody at the same time, but we'll do our best to address your concerns wrt. the change in functionality here. We've already made a few changes to address stuff raised in this thread, but I'll leave it to CCP Habakuk and Grayscale to detail those. Keep watching this space....

Cheers.

...

We discussed these changes with the CSM

It's like the people here complaining about losing their capital divisions have never noticed the Search function in the universal Inventory or that they can make custom filters they can toggle at will.

Or they can be lazy whiners instead of learning how to do these things, whatever.

Mate, this was a wonderful feature that a lot of capital and super capital pilots used. Why did Team Gridlock have to go and gut it?

With the important caveat that I am not a capital pilot:

How hard would it be to let cap pilots assign keyword tags to selected items, and then apply permissions by keyword? This doesn't cover all the bases (for instance, it is nice to allow miners to deposit ore into bays they can't take anything from), but it covers most of the concerns and it's far more flexible than containers or divisions.

Tag your pimp mods "refit" and give no-one permission; tag your rifters and dictors "fleet" and allow fleet members to access anything tagged "fleet"; etc. If you allowed more than one tag per item, you could even have overlapping permissions.

Ok, I've finally read through the whole thread. Is the following a fair summary of the issues and questions raised ?

* Granularity of access, i.e. the ability to offer access to the SMB and FH separately to either corp or fleet or both.
* Visual organization, i.e. a single click to view groups of items.
* Divisional security, i.e. the ability to have a (semi-)private section and "public" section, so far accomplished with corp roles.
* Emergency fitting problem. i.e. the ability to Ctrl+A -> drag everything over the fitting screen because OMGTHEYREGANKINGMEOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT.
* Max pilots using fitting service as once. This is actually a red herring and in any case not something I've changed, but was raised, so lets include it anyway. Maybe the restriction should be changed. No promises though.
* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?

Am I missing something?

Ok, I've finally read through the whole thread. Is the following a fair summary of the issues and questions raised ?

* Granularity of access, i.e. the ability to offer access to the SMB and FH separately to either corp or fleet or both.
* Visual organization, i.e. a single click to view groups of items.
* Divisional security, i.e. the ability to have a (semi-)private section and "public" section, so far accomplished with corp roles.
* Emergency fitting problem. i.e. the ability to Ctrl+A -> drag everything over the fitting screen because OMGTHEYREGANKINGMEOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT.
* Max pilots using fitting service as once. This is actually a red herring and in any case not something I've changed, but was raised, so lets include it anyway. Maybe the restriction should be changed. No promises though.
* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?
* The "drop-only" functionality, i.e. you can put stuff in, but not view or take

Am I missing something?

[edited to add that last part]

* Emergency fitting problem. i.e. the ability to Ctrl+A -> drag everything over the fitting screen because OMGTHEYREGANKINGMEOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT.

Ok, I've finally read through the whole thread. Is the following a fair summary of the issues and questions raised ?

* Granularity of access, i.e. the ability to offer access to the SMB and FH separately to either corp or fleet or both.
* Visual organization, i.e. a single click to view groups of items.
* Divisional security, i.e. the ability to have a (semi-)private section and "public" section, so far accomplished with corp roles.
* Emergency fitting problem. i.e. the ability to Ctrl+A -> drag everything over the fitting screen because OMGTHEYREGANKINGMEOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT.
* Max pilots using fitting service as once. This is actually a red herring and in any case not something I've changed, but was raised, so lets include it anyway. Maybe the restriction should be changed. No promises though.
* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?
* The "drop-only" functionality, i.e. you can put stuff in, but not view or take

Am I missing something?

[edited to add that last part]

* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?

Ok, I've finally read through the whole thread. Is the following a fair summary of the issues and questions raised ?

* Granularity of access, i.e. the ability to offer access to the SMB and FH separately to either corp or fleet or both.
* Visual organization, i.e. a single click to view groups of items.
* Divisional security, i.e. the ability to have a (semi-)private section and "public" section, so far accomplished with corp roles.
* Emergency fitting problem. i.e. the ability to Ctrl+A -> drag everything over the fitting screen because OMGTHEYREGANKINGMEOHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT.
* Max pilots using fitting service as once. This is actually a red herring and in any case not something I've changed, but was raised, so lets include it anyway. Maybe the restriction should be changed. No promises though.
* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?
* The "drop-only" functionality, i.e. you can put stuff in, but not view or take

Am I missing something?

[edited to add that last part]

* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?

* Question about scannability. Are FH contents scannable? Should they be?
* Question regarding loot drops. Does FH content drop as loot? Should it?

Changes, which reached Duality with today's patch:

• Fleet hangars: Assembled containers in fleet hangars can now be used fully by the owner of the ship.
• Force field passwords: They are now stored on the server per character.

Feel free to test these changes on Duality. Bonus points for whoever finds a bug and reports it here and with a bugreport.

Further improvements to fleet hangars are being planned to address many of your concerns, but CCP Greyscale will post them later, as soon as he had time to go through them in detail.

Containers do not fully address the concerns, partly because of the static nature of container-based divisions (although the bonus of increased storage space may alleviate this somewhat), but mainly because (as I read it) if you open the Fleet Hangar to public use, there is nothing stopping anyone simply removing the containers.

... im sorry but how is this better than where we are currently on tranquility?

Those divisons on the carrier hangers were kinda useful btw.

qft

Seems clear that everyone wants some organization to the hanger.

I guess I'll have to double check, but I assumed the ability to filter items would take care of most "organization issues".

How about "Personal Hangar" and "Fleet Hangar" who share a size.

"Allow Access to Fleet Hangar"
"Allow Access to Fleet SMB"

The rest sounds awesome and thanks for finally tackling this.

Changes, which reached Duality with today's patch:

Fleet hangars: Assembled containers in fleet hangars can now be used fully by the owner of the ship.

Currently on Duality, the change to the fleet hangar has broken Rorqual compression. The input output options are still based on corp hangar names, but no "fleet hangar" option, making it impossible to install a compression job.

Thank you for the report! It is being fixed.

Any word on the feature changes from Grayscale?

Unfortunately he is busy with other work at the moment. I hope we can give you more information soon.

I guess I'll have to double check, but I assumed the ability to filter items would take care of most "organization issues".

The corp hangars on ships code had to go. Sorry, but that's simply the reality of the matter. It's been broken since it was first put in the game and was made completely unfixable when fleet member access was added to the mix. And by broken I mean both design and implementation. Corp roles clashed and were inconsistent between usages, there was no way for the client to reliably know if it could access another players ship so it had to guess and handle errors (you can probably imagine how healthy and correct that was most of the time), you could put stuff in without knowing that you couldn't take it back and the list just kept growing. Every time someone fixed a bug in this code, at least two new bugs surfaced, usually within either POS corp hangar arrays or offices in stations as all 3 of them shared the same codebase. It. Had. To. Go.

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Corp hangars are now fleet hangars
• Volumes will all stay the same
• Divisions are gone, as is any other reliance on corp roles
• Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
• Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
• Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI
• We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
• For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)
• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Corp hangars are now fleet hangars
• Volumes will all stay the same
• Divisions are gone, as is any other reliance on corp roles
• Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
• Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
• Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI
• We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
• For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)
• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

Looks better but some will complain. Any word on pos security improvements or will that have to wait till the new poses?

Might want to clearify which corp hangers are effected. All ship equiped corp hangers for example.

No official word, no, sorry. And yeah, cleared that up, my bad.

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

....

• We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
...

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

No official word, no, sorry. And yeah, cleared that up, my bad.

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

...

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
• For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

This is a rather large change to be adding in, and I am sure it will be very controversial. I'd urge you to make sure it is in a devblog soon so that people know about it, and can give you real feedback.

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

linky to CCP Greyscales original post

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

This is a rather large change to be adding in, and I am sure it will be very controversial. I'd urge you to make sure it is in a devblog soon so that people know about it, and can give you real feedback.

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI

Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously

Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)

For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Corp hangars *on ships* are now fleet hangars
• Volumes will all stay the same
• Divisions are gone, as is any other reliance on corp roles
• Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
• Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
• Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI
• We're adding five new non-compressive containers (from 250k m3 down to 1k m3)
• For containers in a fleet hangar, only the pilot will ever be allowed to open or remove the container; other characters will only be able to drop into the container (with a warning)
• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

<3

How difficult would it be, instead of having multiple different non-compressing containers, to simply create a plastic wrap which acts as a container (can be renamed), and always takes up the size of whatever its contents are?

Out of the question :) We rely heavily on items having fixed volume, particularly client side. The plastic wraps are a source of constant pain and I regard them as a spawn of Cthulu. They will be exorcized out of my codebase next time I'm in the mood for such shenanigans.

Out of the question :) We rely heavily on items having fixed volume, particularly client side. The plastic wraps are a source of constant pain and I regard them as a spawn of Cthulu. They will be exorcized out of my codebase next time I'm in the mood for such shenanigans.

Out of the question :) We rely heavily on items having fixed volume, particularly client side. The plastic wraps are a source of constant pain and I regard them as a spawn of Cthulu. They will be exorcized out of my codebase next time I'm in the mood for such shenanigans.

The removal of wrapping will imho destroy the entire Courier Contract System.

Gankers will now know exactly what's being hauled. So ganking will just get worse.

The hauler will now know what he's hauling leading to more theft of the Courier Contract unless you have a large Collateral, if the collateral is too large people won't take the contract at all.

Don't read so much into what I typed. My gripe is solely with the fact that "plastic wraps" have variable volume and that's a pain I wan't to get rid of. There are more ways around that then just flat out removing them from the game ... I'll go back to my corner now.

Don't read so much into what I typed. My gripe is solely with the fact that "plastic wraps" have variable volume and that's a pain I wan't to get rid of. There are more ways around that then just flat out removing them from the game ... I'll go back to my corner now.

Out of the question :) We rely heavily on items having fixed volume, particularly client side. The plastic wraps are a source of constant pain and I regard them as a spawn of Cthulu. They will be exorcized out of my codebase next time I'm in the mood for such shenanigans.

Also while this is a very good thing for Cap Pilots it's gonna suck for Orcas. With the recent changes to Barges we now have to carry a large number of mining crystals to support the fleets. Removing the divisions and adding cargo cans will make it more of a pain to deal with then it is now.

noone is going to use supers as haulers anyway ;-)

Ok, so here's our current complete plan:

• Ship fitting array is always available to everyone in your corp and/or your fleet
• Ship fitting arrays on ships and starbases no longer restrict the number of characters that can use them simulataneously
• Fleet hangars and ship maintenance arrays on ships both now have "allow fleet member use" and "allow corp member use" in the inventory UI

• Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)

We're hoping this will be the final set of adjustments, but obviously we're reading the feedback here :)

-Greyscale

The removal of wrapping will imho destroy the entire Courier Contract System.

Gankers will now know exactly what's being hauled. So ganking will just get worse.

The hauler will now know what he's hauling leading to more theft of the Courier Contract unless you have a large Collateral, if the collateral is too large people won't take the contract at all.

Somehow a container in a fleet hangar is going to be harder than a division in a corp hangar?

I'll go back to my corner now.

Will it really be that controversial?

It's like doublewrapped cargo (normally in a freigther).

Doublewrap (or corphangar) doesn't protect anyone from ganks, it just adds some more guesswork and random chance (multiplied by level of boredom by the gankers in waiting).

Somehow a container in a fleet hangar is going to be harder than a division in a corp hangar?

The removal of wrapping will imho destroy the entire Courier Contract System.

Gankers will now know exactly what's being hauled. So ganking will just get worse.

The hauler will now know what he's hauling leading to more theft of the Courier Contract unless you have a large Collateral, if the collateral is too large people won't take the contract at all.

Yes. Orca's function as Haulers as well. So it will be open a can to get crystals then open the main Fleet hanger to dump ore in. When running multiple clients your adding 5-6 mouse moves and clicks per client

The hauler will now know what he's hauling leading to more theft of the Courier Contract unless you have a large Collateral, if the collateral is too large people won't take the contract at all.

You do realise that at present, the entire contents of any courier contract are viewable while in station, the number of layers of plastic wrap and/or containers notwithstanding? So there is no change to this.

Don't read so much into what I typed. My gripe is solely with the fact that "plastic wraps" have variable volume and that's a pain I wan't to get rid of. There are more ways around that then just flat out removing them from the game ... I'll go back to my corner now.

So what happened here? Who had the brain fart? Also why not work on functions in the game that are broken, like say high sec ganking? High sec ganking is completely broken with no penalties at all considering what the gain is.

#50 Posted: 2012.10.20 01:16 | Edited by: CCP Habakuk
Scanning: Items in the fleet hangar can not be scanned by cargo scanners - this has not changed. Customs officials on the other hand will find items in the fleet hangar - this has also not changed compared with the corp hangar on TQ.

#136 Posted: 2012.11.01 13:04 | Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Fleet hangars will now behave like normal cargo hold when it comes to ship scanners and loot drops (ie, will be scannable, and loot will drop from them)


So what happened here? Who had the brain fart? Also why not work on functions in the game that are broken, like say high sec ganking? High sec ganking is completely broken with no penalties at all considering what the gain is.

Team Gridlock has been working in the last months mostly on improving server-side parts of the inventory system (and related systems). Many of the changes won't be visible to the player (except that a few old bugs should be gone), but there are a few important changes, which are now on Duality for testing:

Fleet hangars:
Corporation hangars on capital ships and Orcas have been converted into fleet hangars. These fleet hangars have no divisions and corp roles are irrelevant.

It is always possible to use the fitting service of the SMB of a corp member and a fleet member

Lots more :words: from the OP

The design changed, mostly based on the feedback in this thread. I have to agree, that it makes much more sense to be able to scan stuff in the fleet hangars and that this stuff drops as loot.

Being able to transport things completely safe from scans and robberies is pretty broken.

Good, this is the kind of granularity we actually want. But keep the corp hangar divisons!! And actually, it would be great to have some divisions in the SMA's storage as well. I'd like to be able to hand out fleet dictors from my super w/o everyone in the fleet also being able to steal my pimp fit Loki.

Scans yes robberies no. Just because you cannot scan contents of certain ships does not mean you cannot kill them. In high sec that is.

Highsec is not a factor.

And no, both were quite broken. Being able to appear as if you're carrying nothing when you're full of stuff rather removes the point of having cargo scans. Even wrapping your valuables showed up as you carrying something. And stuff not dropping was just wrong in every way GÇö if you bring it out of the station is should be lootable.

I agree you should be able to loot from any ship. However there are always counters to almost everything in the game. Orca was the counter to cargo scanning.

And highsec is a factor, it's the only factor with the discussion you and I are having.

Look my point is this, Highsec ganking is way too easy.

The design changed, mostly based on the feedback in this thread. I have to agree, that it makes much more sense to be able to scan stuff in the fleet hangars and that this stuff drops as loot.

The design changed, mostly based on the feedback in this thread. I have to agree, that it makes much more sense to be able to scan stuff in the fleet hangars and that this stuff drops as loot.