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X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.25 22:55:00 - [1] Some are wondering about torp at 5 what it's like. With torp 5 and current missle skills. Did not train any of the new advanced skills to possibly make them any better. frigs: 10 to 60 damage. sometimes seen 70's. cruisers: @100 average. up to 210 on hulls. Painted targets: only one painter activated frigs. 30 to 90 cruisers. didn't see much difference really: maybe 20 to 40 more damage to the above. Stasis didn't try but should also make a difference, probably more than painters but need more time to check it out. And you guys are really really really REALLY not gonna like torps on some the fast angel or mercenary BS's. The speed factor is way to great. Torps should do full damage on BS sized ships and if they are fast you'll be lucky to get cruiser damage out of torps 5 on fast BS's. On the same note: Apoc: T2 large beam skills. Multi xtal. painter. frig at 20km tach 2 averages 300 per shot. the absolute worst tracking large weapon. Not to fair or balanced if ya ask me. Looks like it's back to turrets. Maybe one day caldari will get a turret based BS.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.25 22:57:00 - [2] 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. /Elve
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. ...I think the point of the thread was that his Apoc was doing ~300 damage to frigs while torps did jack.
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:00:00 - [4] Let me guess, the frigate with the apoc had its mwd on, was not moving, and had was painted. Any frigate that actually gets hit by a tachyon at 20km after the 'moon bug' is fixed deserves to die. This is coming from a primarily frig pilot.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:03:00 - [5] Must've been a retarded frigate pilot then. /Elve
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:13:00 - [6] Edited by: Ithildin on 25/06/2005 23:13:49 Lasers aren't the worst tracking in game, Projectiles are. Both Railguns and Howitzers track FAR worse than Beams on ANY ship in the comparison. Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda Originally by: Elve Sorrow Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. ...I think the point of the thread was that his Apoc was doing ~300 damage to frigs while torps did jack. His point is that an Apoc doesn't hit for ~300 damage because it doesn't hit. The Torps always hit, but never hard. To me this is symetrical balance, but I'll have to play test to see if it truely is balanced... Oh, and if you fly straight at a turret, expect to be hit. Don't drink and drive... come to think of it, if you drink you might not be able to fly straight... -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Ithildin come to think of it if you drink you might not be able to fly straight... That would imply drinking and driving is good for a frigate pilot though. /Elve
Nafri	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:19:00 - [8] 60 damage is waaaaayyy to high 6x 60, ieek, goodbye ceptors No sig today
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:26:00 - [9] Originally by: Nafri 60 damage is waaaaayyy to high 6x 60, ieek, goodbye ceptors Yep. Torps always hit, a tach isn't going to hit any non-retarded pilot at even 60km (w/out mwd painter bug). ________________________________________________________
Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Kyoko Sakoda on 25/06/2005 23:32:23 Last time I was fighting a frig on SiSi in a Raven, the mwd'ing interceptor was able to tank me at 11km. Guess I'll have to see if that's changed.
Pesht	Posted - 2005.06.25 23:53:00 - [11] I thought torpedos can only go around 2800ms, a good interceptor can easily outrun that
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.06.26 01:02:00 - [12] three volleys for a ceptor? hmm guess your guys in bs hae to gank them before they can get off three volleys is all...
Cannedbeef	Posted - 2005.06.26 01:15:00 - [13] He said 10-60 base for FRIGS Interceptors have smaller sig radius AND move faster. ----- Looking for contracts in: Sulfuric Acid Neo Mercurite Technetium Evemail me please, thanks!
Mac Knife	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:27:00 - [14] Omg my uber torpedo boat can no longer kill a ceptor with 2 torps, OH NOES!! A tachyon beam has a hard time hitting my thron at 5kms, how the hell is it going to hit a frigate at 20kms?!?! even webbed target painted it MIGHT get a lucky shot off, other then that it ain't got a chance in hell of hitting it. Seriously, the raven and other primeraly missile boats were the only ships able to hit a frigate for full dmg if their missiles hit them. Atm a Megathron with 7 425mm's cannot hit a frigate for jack at 20kms, yes it has drones, but so does the raven My advice, fit small guns and assault launchers, that will sort your problem. Why does everyone think this patch is a nerf on missiles when really its making them better?
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Selim Let me guess, the frigate with the apoc had its mwd on, was not moving, and had was painted. Any frigate that actually gets hit by a tachyon at 20km after the 'moon bug' is fixed deserves to die. This is coming from a primarily frig pilot. well from what has been reported in the painter thread painters were not doing jack or very little on the test server to a MWDing Frig... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:31:00 - [16] Yea, but stick a couple on a BS then see how BS guns hits on that BS fare. It's quite nice. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Mac Knife	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Maya Rkell Yea, but stick a couple on a BS then see how BS guns hits on that BS fare. It's quite nice. Agreed, today we had a geddon and thron fitted out with 3 target painters between them, when they painted a bs our dmg increased by a long way. Hitting the target harder with them on.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:44:00 - [18] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Selim Let me guess, the frigate with the apoc had its mwd on, was not moving, and had was painted. Any frigate that actually gets hit by a tachyon at 20km after the 'moon bug' is fixed deserves to die. This is coming from a primarily frig pilot. well from what has been reported in the painter thread painters were not doing jack or very little on the test server to a MWDing Frig... effect of painters on MWD'ing ships has been sketchy. at least once during the last few test patches this week, painters would have no effect on an mwding ship (and interceptors were getting no signature bonus either). wether theyve managed to fix it completely by now.. well i just havnt been bothered to test it, tbh ------------- The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.06.26 02:44:00 - [19] Try out your cruise missiles on the faster BS, then give us the report. I fly BS, Cruisers, and Frigs, (everything but HACS) and I know that all are imbalanced because they aren't restricted to their proper roles. DPS changes aren't enough. Qualitative rather than quantitative differences are needed to promote mixed fleets, and decrease reliance on focused fire tactics (outside of hull class niches). Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Akaviri	Posted - 2005.06.26 03:00:00 - [20] Originally by: X'Alor Apoc: T2 large beam skills. Multi xtal. painter. frig at 20km tach 2 averages 300 per shot. the absolute worst tracking large weapon. I think you meant to say "worst tracking large energy weapon." The 425mm Railgun has worse tracking even with a lvl 5 tracking bonus on the Megathron, and the 1200mm and 1400mm are even worse. ````````````` _ \|\_ ````````````` \` oo\ ````````_____/ =__Y= `````` /` `````` ) `_``` / ` , ``` \/\_.(\_/) ((____\| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x) `------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny!
Leno	Posted - 2005.06.26 06:36:00 - [21] /me pets cruise missles lvl 5.... wait.... i dont even fly missle boats, insta dmg 4tw --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend Coasterbrian > babies are good, especially raw Coasterbrian > soft and crunchy at the same time
Remedial	Posted - 2005.06.26 08:50:00 - [22] In some cases it's better to have a smaller, constant DoT to a frigate that the frigate has no chance of avoiding, rather than sporadic damage that might kill the frigate if it lands, but probably won't land except for 1 out of 30 shots. If anything I think caldari BS will be the new small ship killers after patch since small ships simply cannot avoid missiles going 3-5km/s.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:16:00 - [23] Edited by: Jim Steele on 26/06/2005 09:18:37 Wow, torps hitting for 60 without any skills, my turrets (megapulseII) hit for 0 at close range 100% of the time with all lvl5's in gunnary bar traj analysis. Only way i can kill intys is to spam them with cruise/torps currently, or web the ** out of them. Edit: Also are the frigs using AB or a MWD, im sure fitting an AB to a crow now will make it invincible. Real men, play Rugby**
Li1ith	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:26:00 - [24] still. i want to know how mutch dmg in PvP a Raven all lvl5 can inflict on another BS. and how fast at range. do u notich the torp hitting or other. do defenders suck now?
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.26 09:30:00 - [25] for PvE. I think these forums will start to fill up with threads once people try their missile ships in PVE after the 5th of july. Even with new skills maxed.
Crellion	Posted - 2005.06.26 22:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Antic for PvE. I think these forums will start to fill up with threads once people try their missile ships in PVE after the 5th of july. Even with new skills maxed. PvE after 5th of July? In a Raven? Whats that? Why do you think all lvl4 agent bases currently have 4-5 Ravens docking or undocking at any given time. Ravens gather isk now and on the 5th of July (or thereabouts as there will unavoidably be a few crashes the first 2-22 days) the Raven will be PvP (sniping) strictly.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:42:00 - [27] for all you that keep bring up inties...... um FRIGS and yes tach 2's hit very regular on FRIGS at 20KM and the BS sitting absolutely still. that is NOT the "hey i hit it once" number. Keeping in mind with my setup which included 2 tracking puter 2's and a painter with apoc sitting still. That is not a standard gun characteristic of that gun. it's the only way to get large guns to hit small ships. They were normal frigs, not MWD frigs, not inties, not MWD inties. and that was 300 AVERAGE DAMAGE. at 20 km with a painter(NO WEB) will abliterate that frig. I see as high ast 600 to 650 damage to frigs painted at 10km with the BS sitting still and nothing below 200. And yes I meant to say worst tracking large energy weapon. Inties will be even worse than those numbers. What's funnier is all of you say 60 is too much. that was one out of a half load of torps needed to pop it. most hit between 10 and 20. the 60 was the wreckers. and on cruisers that were not MWD'in. only got like 260 max damage on HULL with torp 5. HULL, you guys do reme,ber that hull has no resistances????? Point being is the large tach can be made to hit frigs for big damage and often. A torp will never ever do full damage again and can't be made to hit like a tach can. It is a very very imbalanced adjustment. Back to turret ships for me. Also worth a note. Had angel extravaganza to test it with. You know those fast BS's. Wait till you guys get a load of the damage you don't do BS to BS using torps just because it's fast. Pretty sad damage. And that's BS to BS. screw the frig relationship.
eve warrior	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:49:00 - [28] To be honest a torp should pop a frig. There is a reason a BS cost 120mill and a frig only cost 200k. I dont use missiles much but on a sniper tempest a crusier launcher and a heavy nos are my main defence against ceptors and other fast Frigs. Now with the small amount of dmg its going to take way to long to kill them.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 04:51:00 - [29] oh ya the new anti missle defence isn't defenders it's an afterburner setup with 6 overdrives.
Aldanor	Posted - 2005.06.27 06:49:00 - [30] Edited by: Aldanor on 27/06/2005 06:49:36 Originally by: X'Alor for all you that keep bring up inties...... um FRIGS and yes tach 2's hit very regular on FRIGS at 20KM and the BS sitting absolutely still. that is NOT the "hey i hit it once" number. Keeping in mind with my setup which included 2 tracking puter 2's and a painter with apoc sitting still. That is not a standard gun characteristic of that gun. urm does the frig even have a decent transverse? even at 60-80km i may get one shot per salvo hit my wolf at 350m/s transverse.... a wolf only gets hit for about 10dmg but still i would imagine by 20km they wouldnt be able to hit at all....
Technolisa	Posted - 2005.06.27 07:04:00 - [31] Tachyon tracking speed is 0.0139 425mm Rail trakcing speed is 0.0096 1400mm Artelery Howitzer 0.009 projectile has worst tracking Dunno stats from sisi tho , maby they "tweaked" something agan _______________________________________________
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.27 07:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: Antic for PvE. I think these forums will start to fill up with threads once people try their missile ships in PVE after the 5th of july. Even with new skills maxed. PvE after 5th of July? In a Raven? Whats that? Why do you think all lvl4 agent bases currently have 4-5 Ravens docking or undocking at any given time. Ravens gather isk now and on the 5th of July (or thereabouts as there will unavoidably be a few crashes the first 2-22 days) the Raven will be PvP (sniping) strictly. i wonder, why would you want to snipe with a raven when you can do that better with a tempest or an apoc? :P instant damage ftw.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.27 07:56:00 - [33] Originally by: eve warrior To be honest a torp should pop a frig. There is a reason a BS cost 120mill and a frig only cost 200k. I dont use missiles much but on a sniper tempest a crusier launcher and a heavy nos are my main defence against ceptors and other fast Frigs. Now with the small amount of dmg its going to take way to long to kill them. You just aren't getting it. 1: People in EVE are so scared of combat that unless you can reliably scramble ships, fast, nothing is ever going to happen. That leaves cowardly sniping. And this is not a gank situation, because you need a scrambler in the first place. 2: When talking about expense, the most expensive thing on a ship is the pilots time. It is not the 200 million worth of modules on the battleship, it is the tactical innovation, execution, and interaction that you have to utilize in combat that is the central part of combat. If a ship falls prey to anything larger, this will result in everyone flying only things larger, which in turn makes diversity and tactics dry up and it will harm EVE as a game. There is a reason why, in all strategy games, catapults are expensive. There's a reason why cavalry die like flies when charging pikemen, even though pikemen are probably one of the least expensive units in the combat. And there's a reason why interceptors do not do very much damage to a battleship, but the battleship in turn is unable to kill an interceptor. We do NOT want to go back to the boring Bigger-Is-Better Gemini! It "worked" back then because people couldn't afford to replace a battleship if they lost it! Today even I can! Uninsured. I do not care how much you spent on my ship. I don't care how much I spent on my ship after I've fitted it. I care about combat and the gameplay. Stop trying to lead this game to ruin. It's the only game on the MMO market worth paying for, every other MMO is a single-player game requiring an internet connection and a monthly fee. Sadly. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Blackest Sheep	Posted - 2005.06.27 08:28:00 - [34] Edited by: Blackest Sheep on 27/06/2005 08:28:53 Originally by: X'Alor Apoc: T2 large beam skills. Multi xtal. painter. frig at 20km tach 2 averages 300 per shot. the absolute worst tracking large weapon. You must have uber skills. I cannot hit anything at that range with a tachyon fitted Apoc with a tracking computer 2 and a target painter. And my relevant skills are all at 4 or 5. I can chew up BS just fine if I can keep range, but frigs and fast cruiser will get too close for me to hit in a very short time if I use tachs. And I guess that hybrids and projeciles are even worse. What do turret BS use for anti-frig? Their guns? Do not make me laugh. They use launcher, nos, drones, because large turrets cannot hit jack at frig combat ranges. Any decent frig pilot will not be hit by tachs at 20 km.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2005.06.27 08:34:00 - [35] I hate seeing complaints that torps cant kill frigs or interceptors as if it is a terrible thing. But, really, it cuts both ways. Cant kill an interceptor in your BS? Go buy an interceptor then! lol But seriously... I have yet to see any numbers that convince me that turrets are any better. I dont have perfect skills, but they are "moderately trained" and I have trouble hitting the fastest frigs and inties even when they are flying straight at me at optimal range, using short range ammo and 425/350mm rails. I would be more than happy to see a stream of low damage hitting them, as the damage I do to them now is 0.0 nearly every time. No way the rare hits I do manage to accomplish make up for a stream of 10-20 dmg per hit. Drones are my only hope... I would love to have 10-20 per shot, which can be brought up with new skills.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.06.27 09:31:00 - [36] my corpm8s with their 1400 t2 pop frigs at 60< easily, thats like birdshooting.. thing is, id rather like to see that reduced then the raven becoming the frigkiller again. im so looking forward to the missile changes as pure caldari, my cerb can do dmg outside of its 10k, hey cara too. my scorp does actually dmg! raven might become an option for pvp again, and i dont mean the lame 5 stabs frigkillers, never done that, i mean real pvp (insta dmg 4tw). that 10-60dmg will b heavily increased with the new skills im very sure, so im happy with it. the only thing im worrieng bout is the angel bs, would b retardet when im getting 50dmg with torps on them.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 16:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists my corpm8s with their 1400 t2 pop frigs at 60< easily, thats like birdshooting.. im so looking forward to the missile changes as pure caldari, my cerb can do dmg outside of its 10k, hey cara too. that 10-60dmg will b heavily increased with the new skills im very sure, so im happy with it. the only thing im worrieng bout is the angel bs, would b retardet when im getting 50dmg with torps on them. 1. and that torp or cruise missle fly straight into a frig at 60km will still only do 10-20 damage average. 2.Wait till you use that cerb or caracal on an AB equipped inty and you see your lvl 5 kinetic heavies doing 60 damage cuz the speed nerf and size nerf with out the MWD sig penalty. 3. It's gonna have to be. 4. it aint 50 but still for BS to BS size relationship, pretty sad damage on hulls without the new skill simply from speed factor. Still I'll let that one be a nice surprise for ya...... can't see the skills bringing it up enough to warrant even training anymore missle skills. they are going to have to do a lot to get there. the key to making tach hit frigs, the ship has to be sitting absolutely still. not even 10m/sec. still, 0, no speed at all. They could have implemented the missle skill books without activating the bonuses so that those of us that went Missle specific from start can make it work at patch time, not 3 monthes after. Your still gonna be able to vaporize frigs and inties, just gonna take 5 ballistics, a webber, and a painter. Heck with the tanks, go with the ganks. back to stacking damage mods. Also a problem with it is caldari are shield tankers and devote most mid slots to making a tank work and to make a missle hit you will need a painter and or web. And where do they fit? thus ruining any real tanking the raven can do. Tank and die cuz you don't do enough DOT or equip to hit and have no tank and die. Since transversal velocity is the determining factor for guns. I don't understand why they can't use the same relationship for missles. High transversal velocity meaning high missle nerf. Low transversal velocity low nerf. that way a missle at range flying straight into target hits like a gun at range. Then again that's fair and balanced as far as guns and range go so why do that. I don't make it. I just adapt and play it. Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 16:55:00 - [38] Originally by: X'Alor 1. and that torp or cruise missle fly straight into a frig at 60km will still only do 10-20 damage average. 2.Wait till you use that cerb or caracal on an AB equipped inty and you see your lvl 5 kinetic heavies doing 60 damage cuz the speed nerf and size nerf with out the MWD sig penalty. 3. It's gonna have to be. 4. it aint 50 but still for BS to BS size relationship, pretty sad damage on hulls without the new skill simply from speed factor. Still I'll let that one be a nice surprise for ya...... can't see the skills bringing it up enough to warrant even training anymore missle skills. they are going to have to do a lot to get there. the key to making tach hit frigs, the ship has to be sitting absolutely still. not even 10m/sec. still, 0, no speed at all. They could have implemented the missle skill books without activating the bonuses so that those of us that went Missle specific from start can make it work at patch time, not 3 monthes after. Your still gonna be able to vaporize frigs and inties, just gonna take 5 ballistics, a webber, and a painter. Heck with the tanks, go with the ganks. back to stacking damage mods. Also a problem with it is caldari are shield tankers and devote most mid slots to making a tank work and to make a missle hit you will need a painter and or web. And where do they fit? thus ruining any real tanking the raven can do. Tank and die cuz you don't do enough DOT or equip to hit and have no tank and die. Since transversal velocity is the determining factor for guns. I don't understand why they can't use the same relationship for missles. High transversal velocity meaning high missle nerf. Low transversal velocity low nerf. that way a missle at range flying straight into target hits like a gun at range. Then again that's fair and balanced as far as guns and range go so why do that. I don't make it. I just adapt and play it. Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. Oh noes your insta win button was nerfed! Oh noes my heavy missiles only hit for 60 on a frig that cruiser guns cant hit! Oh noes now my raven can't fit an uber tank and still do uber damage! Oh noes now I have to fit a web or target painter to hit! I especially find hilarious your completely incorrect assessment that "an apoc pwns frigs at 20km with tachs." Even if that is true (which its not unless the frig pilot is a moron), you yourself stated that the apoc is using target painters and tracking comps. AND THEN YOU COMPLAIN THAT NOW THE RAVEN HAS TO USE THE SAME THINGS!??!?! Poor win button.
Spider Webb	Posted - 2005.06.27 16:55:00 - [39] Originally by: X'Alor Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. I feel cheated. With Caldari BS lv5, Torps and Cruise lv5. this patch is going to invalidate nearly 6M of my skills, im going to see my CN raven and 3 normal ravens become worthless.. Once again CCP caves to the frig flying whiners. They could have atleast seeded the new skills into TQ before the patch so us missle users can keep playing instead of going inactive for 3 months... The implications of this patch are going to be sad and deep. Looks like im going to change me ravens into a gank ships, 5 BCU 4tw, and pray i dont run into any BS's running an AB - else im skrewed. I just pray that the Caldari Dread will have some turret slots for rails. lest im going to hang myself.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.06.27 17:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Spider Webb Originally by: X'Alor Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. I feel cheated. With Caldari BS lv5, Torps and Cruise lv5. this patch is going to invalidate nearly 6M of my skills, im going to see my CN raven and 3 normal ravens become worthless.. Once again CCP caves to the frig flying whiners. They could have atleast seeded the new skills into TQ before the patch so us missle users can keep playing instead of going inactive for 3 months... The implications of this patch are going to be sad and deep. Looks like im going to change me ravens into a gank ships, 5 BCU 4tw, and pray i dont run into any BS's running an AB - else im skrewed. I just pray that the Caldari Dread will have some turret slots for rails. lest im going to hang myself. train another 6 million SP and you can fly a turret boat No sig today
jukriamrr	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:07:00 - [41] Nafri whatever happened to your sig?
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: eve warrior To be honest a torp should pop a frig. There is a reason a BS cost 120mill and a frig only cost 200k. I dont use missiles much but on a sniper tempest a crusier launcher and a heavy nos are my main defence against ceptors and other fast Frigs. Now with the small amount of dmg its going to take way to long to kill them. You just aren't getting it. 1: People in EVE are so scared of combat that unless you can reliably scramble ships, fast, nothing is ever going to happen. That leaves cowardly sniping. And this is not a gank situation, because you need a scrambler in the first place. 2: When talking about expense, the most expensive thing on a ship is the pilots time. It is not the 200 million worth of modules on the battleship, it is the tactical innovation, execution, and interaction that you have to utilize in combat that is the central part of combat. If a ship falls prey to anything larger, this will result in everyone flying only things larger, which in turn makes diversity and tactics dry up and it will harm EVE as a game. There is a reason why, in all strategy games, catapults are expensive. There's a reason why cavalry die like flies when charging pikemen, even though pikemen are probably one of the least expensive units in the combat. And there's a reason why interceptors do not do very much damage to a battleship, but the battleship in turn is unable to kill an interceptor. We do NOT want to go back to the boring Bigger-Is-Better Gemini! It "worked" back then because people couldn't afford to replace a battleship if they lost it! Today even I can! Uninsured. I do not care how much you spent on my ship. I don't care how much I spent on my ship after I've fitted it. I care about combat and the gameplay. Stop trying to lead this game to ruin. It's the only game on the MMO market worth paying for, every other MMO is a single-player game requiring an internet connection and a monthly fee. Sadly. I understand what you are saying and I have two chars with Cald BS5 and who stand to lose bigtime with this deal. I see value in what you are saying but you need to see that there are alot of people who are calling BS over the increasingly popular tactic of getting a group of 10+ frigs\AFs\etc together and wrecking havoc PRE PATCH on bigger ships worth 2x more than the entire value of ALL those frigs\AFs. Large frig gank fleets are the epitome of no or low risk with high reward\capability. Something needs to be done about that in all of this balancing. Frig fleets are like "Cheapo blobbing".....ridiculous. I want to see my opponent risking as much as me in pvp, not 1/10th of what I'm putting on the line. If it's ROUGHLY equal...fine.....make these changes, I'll adapt np.
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Spider Webb Originally by: X'Alor Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. I feel cheated. With Caldari BS lv5, Torps and Cruise lv5. this patch is going to invalidate nearly 6M of my skills, im going to see my CN raven and 3 normal ravens become worthless.. Once again CCP caves to the frig flying whiners. They could have atleast seeded the new skills into TQ before the patch so us missle users can keep playing instead of going inactive for 3 months... The implications of this patch are going to be sad and deep. Looks like im going to change me ravens into a gank ships, 5 BCU 4tw, and pray i dont run into any BS's running an AB - else im skrewed. I just pray that the Caldari Dread will have some turret slots for rails. lest im going to hang myself. Better sell all your stuff now on the cheap. I'll buy your rack of arbalest sieges if you wanna get in touch with me :) Don't expect what they go for on market. Finally raven's won't be so hellzah expensive to kit. Yayzorskates! --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:18:00 - [44] Edited by: Antic on 27/06/2005 18:19:05 This missile nerf wouldnt suck so much if pure caldari players actualy had any non missile battleships to use. Now instead pure caldari players will be forced to train Amarr to continue do any worthwile PvE content in eve. For the caldaris that still train the new missile skills and go inactive for 3 months waiting to be able to play again will have a very disapointing return to the game once the skills are trained, as they will notice that missiles will still be too limited for PvEing. Personaly its not a problem for me as i trained amarr battleships and laser turrets anticipating this nerf. Of course many of the ignorant trolls gloating about this will be amongst the whiners when the real realisation, of just how gimped missiles ships will be in day today playing, sets in after patchday.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:18:00 - [45] Edited by: X''Alor on 27/06/2005 18:22:37 Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: X'Alor 1. and that torp or cruise missle fly straight into a frig at 60km will still only do 10-20 damage average. 2.Wait till you use that cerb or caracal on an AB equipped inty and you see your lvl 5 kinetic heavies doing 60 damage cuz the speed nerf and size nerf with out the MWD sig penalty. 3. It's gonna have to be. 4. it aint 50 but still for BS to BS size relationship, pretty sad damage on hulls without the new skill simply from speed factor. Still I'll let that one be a nice surprise for ya...... can't see the skills bringing it up enough to warrant even training anymore missle skills. they are going to have to do a lot to get there. the key to making tach hit frigs, the ship has to be sitting absolutely still. not even 10m/sec. still, 0, no speed at all. They could have implemented the missle skill books without activating the bonuses so that those of us that went Missle specific from start can make it work at patch time, not 3 monthes after. Your still gonna be able to vaporize frigs and inties, just gonna take 5 ballistics, a webber, and a painter. Heck with the tanks, go with the ganks. back to stacking damage mods. Also a problem with it is caldari are shield tankers and devote most mid slots to making a tank work and to make a missle hit you will need a painter and or web. And where do they fit? thus ruining any real tanking the raven can do. Tank and die cuz you don't do enough DOT or equip to hit and have no tank and die. Since transversal velocity is the determining factor for guns. I don't understand why they can't use the same relationship for missles. High transversal velocity meaning high missle nerf. Low transversal velocity low nerf. that way a missle at range flying straight into target hits like a gun at range. Then again that's fair and balanced as far as guns and range go so why do that. I don't make it. I just adapt and play it. Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. Oh noes your insta win button was nerfed! Oh noes my heavy missiles only hit for 60 on a frig that cruiser guns cant hit! Oh noes now my raven can't fit an uber tank and still do uber damage! Oh noes now I have to fit a web or target painter to hit! I especially find hilarious your completely incorrect assessment that "an apoc pwns frigs at 20km with tachs." Even if that is true (which its not unless the frig pilot is a moron), you yourself stated that the apoc is using target painters and tracking comps. AND THEN YOU COMPLAIN THAT NOW THE RAVEN HAS TO USE THE SAME THINGS!??!?! Poor win button. Not complaining at all about having to fit them. Complaining that a shield tanker looses it's tanking to do so. The armor tanking turret ship does not in any way get gimped for having to fit said modules in midslot. Heck the armor tanker can fit the tank and some damage mods in most cases and still have plenty of room for said items in mid slots. give us some low slot painters and webs that use the same requirements as the mid slot ones then. What would that mean to shield tanking then. means we loose some recharge rate to use them just like a turret based armor tanker. And if your medium turrets don't hit frigs, bummer for you. Oh noes, what don't you understand about hitting moronic NPC frigs with tach beams. Reading and comprehension. A staple for understanding.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:34:00 - [46] For those saying they are finding there shield tanks getting nerfed like the person above me remember a new skill is comming out to help here and ill also say that ravens can outtank apocs my ceo has like 85% resists on all levels and can still hit hard
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:47:00 - [47] Originally by: X'Alor Not complaining at all about having to fit them. Complaining that a shield tanker looses it's tanking to do so. The armor tanking turret ship does not in any way get gimped for having to fit said modules in midslot. Heck the armor tanker can fit the tank and some damage mods in most cases and still have plenty of room for said items in mid slots. give us some low slot painters and webs that use the same requirements as the mid slot ones then. What would that mean to shield tanking then. means we loose some recharge rate to use them just like a turret based armor tanker. And if your medium turrets don't hit frigs, bummer for you. Oh noes, what don't you understand about hitting moronic NPC frigs with tach beams. Reading and comprehension. A staple for understanding. An armor tank sacrifices nothing by fitting things in its mids? An apoc with 4 target painters/tracking comps in mids doesnt have enough cap for a sustainable tank. How is that no sacrifice? Like I said in the other thread, a raven can EASILLY fit xl shield booster II, amp, 3 hardners, painter Wheres the problem fitting that? Please explain it to me.
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:48:00 - [48] Just start using your raven for some amazing damage, rather than as a damage sponge. You might be surprised. I found that I could trade out a PDU II for a BCS I because the extra damage cuts down on the time I need to boost --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:52:00 - [49] have you gone onto sisi and used a painter with torps and seen the affect. Marginal at best and in all honesty not even worth the fitting. And 3 hardeners if not all different is a waste. if you decide to use 3 to begin with. And current midslot on my raven is 1XL T2/2x amps/2x hardeners/1 tracking disrupter I'd rather disrupt a ship and tank well than paint a ship for almost no results.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:58:00 - [50] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 27/06/2005 18:58:28 Originally by: X'Alor have you gone onto sisi and used a painter with torps and seen the affect. Marginal at best and in all honesty not even worth the fitting. And 3 hardeners if not all different is a waste. if you decide to use 3 to begin with. And current midslot on my raven is 1XL T2/2x amps/2x hardeners/1 tracking disrupter I'd rather disrupt a ship and tank well than paint a ship for almost no results. Um marginal at what? Killin frigs? Thats why you use smaller missiles ffs. Or drones. You know, like what every other BS has to do. Torps still own BS, and they move much faster now, and I bet there will be a lot more 5 bcu ravens which will make torps ridiculous. And not many people even use a tank on a raven in pvp nowadays, so if we are talking pvp the raven just got much much better as it no longer has to be a crappy EW platform in fleet battles. So basically you are complaining that, without training ANY of the new missile skills, your missiles do not insta kill frigs and cruisers anymore. I'm very sorry.
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.06.27 18:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Spider Webb Originally by: X'Alor Amarr for the win. turrets and low slot tanks have an unfair amount of options for EW, for tanking, for using mods that are needed to make them work. forcing misslers and caldari ships to use mid slots to fit items to have the missles hit is just another kick in the pants for shield tanking. I guess no one thinking about that one. Armor tankers + free mid slots = EW masters Shield tankers + no free mid slots = Screwed if you wanna make your missles hit like your a turret armor tanker. I feel cheated. With Caldari BS lv5, Torps and Cruise lv5. this patch is going to invalidate nearly 6M of my skills, im going to see my CN raven and 3 normal ravens become worthless.. Once again CCP caves to the frig flying whiners. They could have atleast seeded the new skills into TQ before the patch so us missle users can keep playing instead of going inactive for 3 months... The implications of this patch are going to be sad and deep. Looks like im going to change me ravens into a gank ships, 5 BCU 4tw, and pray i dont run into any BS's running an AB - else im skrewed. I just pray that the Caldari Dread will have some turret slots for rails. lest im going to hang myself. You may as well give up now and buy an apoc, sorry caldari bretheren.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:03:00 - [52] Originally by: Gamer4liff You may as well give up now and buy an apoc, sorry caldari bretheren. Already done and all back up ravens sold.
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:09:00 - [53] I agree with everyone who disagrees with the raven people.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:13:00 - [54] I suspect this thread to be flooded with anti-raven people in a second. 1) Blame DrunkenOne 2) I agree with Selim 3) Sucks to be a missile user now 4) HAHA /Elve
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Oh right, something constructive. Missiles shouldnt hit a frigate atall. This whole 'OMG i only do 40 damage!!' is utterly retarded. I aint hitting a frigate, be he at 120k or at 5k. You do both. Which should be nerfed tbfh. BUt thats NOt fair, my missiles should kill everything in the game in 1 ****, all i want to do is hit f1-f6 and fit an uber tank, if i have to drop 1 of my faction cap rechargers in my midslots for a painter or web then my shield tank will only hold for 10 minutes instead of 14!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:30:00 - [56] Originally by: DrunkenOne BUt thats NOt fair, my missiles should kill everything in the game in 1 ****, all i want to do is hit f1-f6 and fit an uber tank, if i have to drop 1 of my faction cap rechargers in my midslots for a painter or web then my shield tank will only hold for 10 minutes instead of 14! Yes, couldnt agree more! NERF TURRET BATTLESHIPS! Nerf armor tanking, while youre at it. And nerf those nasty Assault frigates, its not fair they survive a volley from my torps! I mean dude, those torps are the size of a small building, any frigate should die just looking at them. /Elve
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:30:00 - [57] so a sniper at range should? range and turrets = melted little ships range and missles after patch = no damage short medium long range. you don't see any inbalalnce with that. nuff said good'ay
Merv DeGriff	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:31:00 - [58] Wait... You said you were upset that with 6million in skills you can no longer fit an uber tank, AND kill frigates at point blank in one shot? TRy getting a gunboat set up with 6 million in skills... heh. --------------------- Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldy they rode and well, Into the jaws of death, Into the mouth of Hell.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:32:00 - [59] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 27/06/2005 19:33:21 Originally by: X'Alor so a sniper at range should? range and turrets = melted little ships range and missles after patch = no damage short medium long range. you don't see any inbalalnce with that. nuff said good'ay NO there is imbalance! My ravens torps should hit at 1000km for instant damaeg! I also need uber 500m shield boosters for my tank! Cause theres nothing wrong with the fact that I do full damage, from 150km away, in my normal tanked setup! I trained caldari BS 5 so that means I should be better than everyone else!!!11 Sniper BS instakill from 150km away so my missiles should too! Nevermind the fact that a sniper BS completely gimps his setup and has no tank, while I still have an uber full shield tank! Nevermind the fact that the sniper BS cant hit a frig under 20km while I still hit for full damage!! I Fly raven i should pwn all!
siim	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:33:00 - [60] k... chill pills
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:34:00 - [61] got a gun boat with 8 mill in laser gunnery specificly skills. I said good'ay.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:36:00 - [62] Originally by: X'Alor got a gun boat with 8 mill in laser gunnery specificly skills. I said good'ay. Grats to you. Now lets do some testing if youre up for it. You bring that funny 8mill laser gunnery specificly skill character in a sniper-win-gank-frigate-at-range setup, ill bring a frigate. See who dies, shall we? /Elve
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:36:00 - [63] OMG, my raven only kiulled 3 battleships be fore dying!! Raven is underpowered
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:39:00 - [64] Originally by: Selim OMG, my raven only kiulled 3 battleships be fore dying!! Raven is underpowered Raven is alreadty bad why they make it worse?!? When I was NPCing in niyabainanenan and griefer war targets come in 20 elite frigs i only kill 15 of them before they break my tank!!! This si not fair, turret BS can kill them all from 150km befoer they reach it, CCP nerf please before my accoint cancelled
siim	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:39:00 - [65] Originally by: Selim OMG, my raven only kiulled 3 battleships be fore dying!! Raven is underpowered ok..
siim	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:40:00 - [66] enough sarcastic stuff kthx
Airios	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:43:00 - [67] "I understand what you are saying and I have two chars with Cald BS5 and who stand to lose bigtime with this deal. I see value in what you are saying but you need to see that there are alot of people who are calling BS over the increasingly popular tactic of getting a group of 10+ frigs\AFs\etc together and wrecking havoc PRE PATCH on bigger ships worth 2x more than the entire value of ALL those frigs\AFs." So what you are saying is 10 people should not be able to beat up one? Besides if you don't want to risk all you'r fancy mods and ships don't use em. p00f problem solved. Bottom line is Thorps and cruise missiles should not be able to even hit frigates. Unless they are mwding in a straight line... maybe. Also from what i understand this isnt a nerf, it's a missile buff. All you complaining raven pilots are extremely spoiled! ____________________________________________________
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:45:00 - [68] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 27/06/2005 19:44:55 Originally by: siim Originally by: Selim OMG, my raven only kiulled 3 battleships be fore dying!! Raven is underpowered ok.. Siims just mad cause he has caldari cruiser 5. PS siim I saw you lost ur cerb
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:49:00 - [69] Originally by: Airios Bottom line is Thorps and cruise missiles should not be able to even hit frigates. Unless they are mwding in a straight line... maybe. Two with CBS 5 ......ickes Bows. and with your comment above you must mean like large turrets can at say 60km. So why don't they do this missle buff using tranversial velocity as the determining factor for missle damage instead of overall speed of ship and ship sig radius. Then anything that gets in close and orbits, missles do almost no damage like turrets. probably too balanced and would act like turrets do.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:52:00 - [70] Hi X'Alor, i see you happily managed to evade my question. If i, or any other decent frigate pilot out there, were to fly at your sniper Battleship from 150km to scrambling range, i would get there. In one piece. With my shields and armor intact. Aint a thing youre going to do about it. /Elve
Airios	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:54:00 - [71] Hehe, guess you got me wrong i dont have 2 chars with bs lvl 5. I suck at quoting so i copy pasted in that ____________________________________________________
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.06.27 19:58:00 - [72] like why should an interceptor be able to kill a battleship when a battleship cant kill a interceptor? "We brake for nobody"
siim	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:03:00 - [73] 2X heavy nos + 6 heavy drones will still eat all ur lil stupid interceptors
Airios	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:04:00 - [74] "like why should an interceptor be able to kill a battleship when a battleship cant kill a interceptor?" The battleship have plenty of options to do this. but the raven have the nos+missiles [I WIN] Button, Other battleships need to have a more specialized setups hence sacrificing overall combat ability vs other battleships.. Maybe im unclear but what i mean is the raven basicly only need one single setup for all jobs... ____________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock like why should an interceptor be able to kill a battleship when a battleship cant kill a interceptor? Web + drones = dead frig Oh noes, i have to use 1 midslot which helps me vs frigs, HACs and battleships ________________________________________________________
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:18:00 - [76] Elve, if you wish to get onto sisi and try. be more than glad too. All i can do there is test it against dumb NPC frigs. And we are talking frigs not inties. no offense taken and no offense ment. I'd love to have some testing on sisi and/or someone to test with. but keep in mind there is a no podding rule. i'd hate to see ya loose stuff on sisi to test things out.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:27:00 - [77] and if the interceptor has a friend named griffin with jammers? or if the interceptor is orbitting at 11-15km? but anyway, the dmg output of interceptors are too big considering they are suppose to intercept. a 10-man interceptor fleet would kill a battleship very fast, could frigates do the same? as frigates are suppose to be dealing more damage? as they are not suppose to intercept? "We brake for nobody"
Mortuus	Posted - 2005.06.27 20:41:00 - [78] Yes, 10 frigates will take a BS apart faster than his corpmates can ask what system. Mix in some AF's and inties and you have a party. And yes, frigates in groups should kill BS. The determining factor in this game is manpower, not ISK. ISK is too easy to get now with missions and complexes, not to mention a little NPCing or mining in 0.0. Problem seems to be that all sides want their dinner handed to them. A kill is worthless if you didn't have any challenge getting it.
Amrotis	Posted - 2005.06.27 21:21:00 - [79] I personally don't like these changes. Yeah, I'm a caldari pilot, but I'm not complaining that torps dont instawtfpwn frigs. They seem to just make very little sense to me. The whole idea with missiles is that they have always hit for full damage, if they hit at all. As far as I remember, they used to work fine some time before exodus, when the missile flight paths didn't instantly mean that the missile caught up and hit orbitting frigates, and when some t1 frigs were able to outrun cruise missiles with relative ease. Seems to me that all the whining started when torps suddenly began hitting 2km/s orbitting frigs. I don't understand why they changed it, or what they actually did really :/ Seems a better solution to me for missiles to be outrun by smaller ships, than for them to be almost useless against frigs without kitting specifically to kill them. Of course, this would pose the problem of cruisers getting instabbqed, and the raven being somewhat useless in fleet combat once more, but I'd rather have that than the current changes on SiSi tbh. Ravens will dominate fleet combat in the future methinks, able to mount a full rack of damage mods and a full tank _easily_, and hit for more damage at longer range than most turret ships, almost instantly. Anyway, just my thoughts. I mainly fly small ships nowadays anyway, so I guess the new changes will benefit me :\|
Lilat	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:01:00 - [80] Ok to comment on missiles and not have the new missile skills on Sisi is stupid. I trained the new skills all to lvl 4 which makes a HUGE difference. Its like saying you trained large energy turret to lvl 5 but you only have Amarr BS lvl 1 and none of the other supporting gunnery skills and your mad about the Dmg output of your guns. Stop whinning people!
Amrotis	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:11:00 - [81] Originally by: Aleis What I personaly love is listening to all of you Band Wagoneers, Whine about everything everytime something changes. Honestly I see the same people Praising God that they have a ton of Lazar skills because Apocs are Teh Win again that were crying their bleeding little hearts out when Pulse Lazars got nerfed. Just Accept the fact that the game changes and wait for missle to come back around to the top again. And if you don't want you 6 mil skill points to "go to waste" then don't switch to a Turret boat. Auto Responce for Post-Patch Whines OMG!! My (Insert Ship Type) Has just been made worthelss thanks to this patch. I Mean I just tryed my old Set-up out and it did like (Insert Statistic of Weapons Sucking). I could get better damage out of (Insert Previusly Inferior Weapon) on a (Insert Previusly Inferior Ship). I just wasted (Insert Large Number of Skill Points) and (Insert Long Period of Time) Training for (Insert Uber Weapon of DOOM) and now it's completely Useless. Did CCP even test this!? If you wanted everyone to use (Insert New Uber Weapon) why even have (Previusly Uber Weapon of DOOM). Copy and Paste Then fill in with your personal information I've got a crazy Idea. how about every on stop worring about Uber DOOM Cannons and just have fun playing the game. I chose the kind of ships i wanted to fly, and the role i wanted to play, when i made my character and have stuck to that ever since. And guess what, i have 29+mil skill points which, throughout every patch, every Nerf, not once have i considered any of them "Wasted." I know this was kind of a rant but honestly if you just accept teh changes and just playthe game you might have a little fun despite yourself. No offence, but posts like this ** me off. The changes that happen are down to the playerbase whining about the current situation a lot of the time. Nothing would get changed if people didnt OHNOES whine and moan11?"!!? In the same way, is it not evident that everything is not so perfect if such a large amount of people are genuinely concerned about the changes, and not just the forum *s who dont want their sp to be 'wasted'. The whole reason these changes are being implemented in the first place is down to players commenting on how missiles are too effective against smaller ship classes, so telling people to stfu has absolutely no positive output at all. If, as you suggest, everyone stops whining and forum posting, eve would be a pile of **e most likely, because the devs wouldn't have a clue about the conerns of the people who actually play the game, and they wouldn't know if they got something wrong. Take a look at the projectile 'fix' some time ago, as an example.
Aleis	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:18:00 - [82] Edited by: Aleis on 27/06/2005 22:22:24 Theres a difference between constructive critisisim and whining, you can make posts about what needs to be changed with out Whining about things, which is what most do. It's just an interesting observation that half of all posts to these post-patch threads can be summed up with that little mad-lib formula. and in a game which, at teh time i logged in had 10k players online and Far Many more offline, the 5 pages of "Whines" doesn't even come close to being a noticble percentage of the population, only the most Vocal. I'm not saying things don't ever need to be changed but its the end of the world posts that really make me laugh. When in another 2 months or so There will be another patch and it's very likely for all these OHNOES to become PRAISETHELORDS.
Amrotis	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:22:00 - [83] Actually, I find that most of the posts contain something constructive, and the only ones worth ignoring are the ones that read something along the lines of: 'my raven ent working innit. wots rong?' Which tbh, are becomming less and less common and get flamed to hell instantly anyway. Meh, I dunno anyway, I don't spend all that much time whoring the forums anyhow :/
Maorio	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:34:00 - [84] I really don't like tha fact tha standard launcher now take 25 CPU to have online I'm already tight with CPU as it is in my kessie (yes I'm a caldari n00b) I really don't have much skills in anything so I don't care too much but if there are going to be drastic changes in usefulness of weapons inthe game like this is going to be then it becomes way to un predictable and you will have to change weapon setups after every patch has been introduced. an dthe seige launcher won't be able to shoot all kinds of missles, why? that will just nerf the ** out of the bigger ships, since I don't fly anything bigger than a frigate I don't really mind. how will this affect frig to frig combat? will it have any affect? will it take like 10-15 volleys of light missles to kill a few 2k bountiues now? it usually was more or less instakill those things. I really don't see why a good hit with a torp shouldn't be able to kill a frig? as the info says: Slow and dumb but its sheer damage potential is simply staggering.** and now they are fast and dumb but they suck at doing damage so this info isn't accurate against frigs and now the top speed is 2813m/s (with full skills and ship bonuses) is that slow and dumb? you could almost out run a torp with an inty and an ab but now you will need 3 overdrive and an MWD to even have a chance. the missles in the stats are going WAY too fast they will now get to the target really fast but will now barely scratch it. a torp doing a wrecking hit on a inty with only about 10-15 damage is very strange. if anything make torps dummer and maybe even a little bit slower decrease the speed with like 50-100m/s. is there anyone here who is able to taget someone at around 250km? as they are missles tehy should always do a specific amount of damage (resistance will ofcourse play a role here) for a spefic "perfection" of the hit as guns do now. why should they always hit? missles aren't 100% dead accurate. these "changes" will flush all missles users down the toilet and all "begginers" who have found the kestrel a easy way to make a little bit of money will also go down with them. I say thx CCP just after I found a game that I enjoyed playing and a way of gaming that was enjoyable (group bounty hunting) what will I do now? maybe I should hit mining for a while?
Inspiration	Posted - 2005.06.27 22:41:00 - [85] Realy, I read most of this thread, and suddenly I feel becoming retarded....just like the rest here. My brain simply hurts of all this nonsense and I feel an urge of going balistic (pun intended). The only two constructive things I read in this whole thread are: * With new skills to level 4, missiles are worth it (I hope that pans out) * They should have released the skillbooks a bit in advance so peeps could start training. The rest IMHO is utter smack talk, so many dumb things, so much taunting and rubbing in (along with even more nonsense) from non-missile users. Well, back to polishing my tempest now....half missile boat, half gunner. I will adapt and survive for sure, even if it takes months to fully train away most of the initial nerf. Also, there is more to EVE then just combat....I won't be bored :). Check out my Shield/Armor resistance calculator.
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.27 23:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Mortuus ...Yes, 10 frigates will take a BS apart faster than his corpmates can ask what system. Mix in some AF's and inties and you have a party. And yes, frigates in groups should kill BS. The determining factor in this game is manpower, not ISK. ISK is too easy to get now with missions and complexes, not to mention a little NPCing or mining in 0.0... heh yes lets all blob even more
Insane Violence	Posted - 2005.06.28 00:19:00 - [87] if a torp hits a frigate it should do the most damage. Stupid that if a torp hits a smaller target it does less damage than a larger target.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.28 00:59:00 - [88] Originally by: Antic Originally by: Mortuus ...Yes, 10 frigates will take a BS apart faster than his corpmates can ask what system. Mix in some AF's and inties and you have a party. And yes, frigates in groups should kill BS. The determining factor in this game is manpower, not ISK. ISK is too easy to get now with missions and complexes, not to mention a little NPCing or mining in 0.0... heh yes lets all blob even more 10 frigs is a blob now?
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.28 11:22:00 - [89] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Antic Originally by: Mortuus ...Yes, 10 frigates will take a BS apart faster than his corpmates can ask what system. Mix in some AF's and inties and you have a party. And yes, frigates in groups should kill BS. The determining factor in this game is manpower, not ISK. ISK is too easy to get now with missions and complexes, not to mention a little NPCing or mining in 0.0... heh yes lets all blob even more 10 frigs is a blob now? The emphasis on that manpower should be the deciding factor in eve is promoting blobbing yes. It wont work as long as eve PVP is about ganking.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.06.28 11:48:00 - [90] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock and if the interceptor has a friend named griffin with jammers? or if the interceptor is orbitting at 11-15km? sacrifice 1 hi-slot and fit an assault launcher with FoF lights? you have to compromise somewhere. ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2005.06.28 11:51:00 - [91] battleships should not be easily destroyed by 10 frigates/interceptors. but currently they are right? its simple, even with small guns, battleships will have problems taking them down due to, - long locking times. - if they got ecm, you cant do **, couse as soon as you get lock, you lose it again. - if they got dampners, it will take forever to lock. so, thats not really fair is it? i attacked a 20-man frigate blob in my apoc, thought i would at least pop some of them. but no, got jammed so i was just watching my ships hp sink without being able to do **. almost made me want to log off. "We brake for nobody"
Antic	Posted - 2005.06.28 12:00:00 - [92] Know whats funny? the frigg lobby whine that missiles and ravens are so unbalanced cus they are so easy to train for etc etc. Well how easy isnt friggs to train for? ;) A swarm of friggs and an EW module or two can kill any ship bigger than them. Say NO to Ganks.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.06.28 13:03:00 - [93] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock battleships should not be easily destroyed by 10 frigates/interceptors. but currently they are right? Why shouldn't they? You're outnumbered 10 to 1! Size will only make up for lack of numbers so far. If a battleship is easily destroyed by 1 frigate, there is a problem. If it takes 10, there is no problem. One argument I often see about this is the comparative cost of the BS compared to the frigate gang. But what this forgets is that isk is not the only resource in the game. There is another one, even more important, and even more limited - manpower. I could buy a whole fleet of frigates for the cost of a battleship, but I can still only fly one ship at once. The battleship pilot is investing more isk than manpower, the frigate fleet is investing more manpower than isk. Superior manpower should count for just as much as superior equipment.
Lor'ath Tylar	Posted - 2005.06.28 13:36:00 - [94] it's quite obvious that this "missile overhaul" is a buff rather than a nerf (the reasson some ppl think they have to switch ships or the fact that ravens/launchers will get cheaper completly eludes me) i am a missile boat user atm due to limited gunerry skills yet but i have absolutely no worries that ravens will be even more viable now (sure u have to adapt a bit) the main ppl that will whine are PvE mission runners cause it gives them a constant income without ANY risk whatsoever (unlike 0.0 mining/rat hunting) and seeing as there are lots of such players i assume CCP will cave in to their requests ... anyway all of this does not concern me 1 bit ... what i want from this game is close-mid range combat again to spice things up. Think! It ain't illegal yet...
Kaalise	Posted - 2005.06.28 17:31:00 - [95] Originally by: Antic Know whats funny? the frigg lobby whine that missiles and ravens are so unbalanced cus they are so easy to train for etc etc. Well how easy isnt friggs to train for? ;) A swarm of friggs and an EW module or two can kill any ship bigger than them. Say NO to Ganks. Actually to use a frigate properly you have to train everything you need to use a battleship properly except for large guns and racial battleship. .+ (_) Fetch the holy hand grenade
Amarr knight	Posted - 2005.06.29 05:56:00 - [96] I hate this, really hate this. Whenever a missile related post comes along it gets filled sacrcasm, whine and in the end the main topic gets left behind. I am going to discuss about Missile use in PvE (mainly l4 mission). B4 i say this i also fly amarr and minamatar battleship so please dont respond by saying get turret ship and see what we r going through. Yes i use raven for l4 mission. Yes i chose it because it has good frig pwning ability. After the missile changes post occured i went to test server to test it. To find a new viable setup for my PVE raven. I already have cal bs 4 and torp 5. Trained some new skills (mostly to l2-l3). Changed some setups around. In the end none of them worked properly. Why? Well first of all some the new skills dont help torp because its not guided. 2nd of all fitting new mods ( painter, webber, extra bcs) was making my tank weaker. So in the end in most the mission if i go after frigs i keep taking fire from bs and if i am not fast enuf to kill the scrambling frigs and i die. If i go after bs i am still stuck with frigs scambling me. Plus there is also 9-15 cruiser shooting non stop. My dps on bs was low too because some of them were really fast and was cutting of a lot damage.I did finish some of the missions...but not without multiple (5-10) warpouts. Finishing 5 jump angel extravaganza was a nightmare because of the warpouts (long travel distance between gates.) So now its time to adapt. Been through projectile and pulse nerf.....its not new to me. Now when i used tempest for l4 i used long range speedy setup. Go in, make distance, take out frigs that are coming straight at you, who got close use smartbomb and drone on them, then cruiser then bs. Takes longer then raven but wasnt that hard. In some of the 'bs only' missions it was even faster then raven. So now in case of raven i cant do anything. I mean with tempest by creating distance and making them come straight to me i even wrecked 1700 on their frigs. But now i go in close, i go in far, fit damage mods....nothing works. I just cant take all that frigs down fast enuf. Trying to use speed as defence turned out v. wrong as it was like fitting a turbo on a elephant. One thing i also missed was a large drone bay. Using turret was a bad idea too because it didnt have any turret bonus, lasers totally killed my cap. Smartbomb blows up my own torps. Thought i give cruise missile a chance. Siege launcher cant use them so went with cruise launcher setup. With cruise missile a little better result with frigs and cruisers....but they severly lack the firepower to take down well tanked npc bs. So had to go back to do a full refit (fitting siege) just to take down the bss'. After all the testing one thought came to my mind is that raven is very strong missile ship. If this is how it feels to do l4 in raven...how will ships like scorp or typhoon handle this misson? Some suggested to me use light or heavy missile. I totally declined that idea because bs have bs guns and similer bonuses for them. If i have to fit smaller guns on them there is something very wrong with that. I explained my experience in detailes so that those who have not tested the new missile can get some idea. My opinion: I think ccp new ideas are good. But they still need some serious tweaking. They kind of messed up the system trying to balance PVP raven and PVE raven. The missile overhaul will be v. good for PVP raven as it will be good against bs but suck against smaller ships. But they need to do some serious work for PVE version. And some changes to ship like PVE scorp and PVE typhoon is also needed. Ideas anyone?
StokolaN	Posted - 2005.06.29 07:19:00 - [97] Originally by: Elve Sorrow 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. What's wrong with a Raven being a good anti-frig BS? You folks that are pushing for all battleships to be exactly the same are just plain stupid. The fact that Ravens have absolutely no ability to snipe at all isn't good enough for you? I think the anti-frig ability is a fine tradeoff for being the absolute worst BS ever at range. Folks like you will always find something to whine about though. _
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.06.29 08:07:00 - [98] the ppl who whine bout their missiles, and dont discuss are as annoying as trolls like drunken etc. i agree wholeheartly that, aslong ppl dont have the new missile skill trained every2 should stfu.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.06.29 08:22:00 - [99] Originally by: StokolaN Originally by: Elve Sorrow 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. What's wrong with a Raven being a good anti-frig BS? You folks that are pushing for all battleships to be exactly the same are just plain stupid. The fact that Ravens have absolutely no ability to snipe at all isn't good enough for you? I think the anti-frig ability is a fine tradeoff for being the absolute worst BS ever at range. Folks like you will always find something to whine about though. While you have the shadow of a point in your post, you fail misserably. The Raven wasn't the worst ship at long range, that came to the Megathron fitted in a Gallentean fashion. As for Raven being fine as a good anti-frigate ship, that is perfectly fine by me as long as it looses a lot of damage on cruisers and do no damage worth mentioning to Battleships. EVE doesn't use classes with levels for it's characters, it uses a dynamic skill system where your current role (a role to play in a combat scenario is extremely important both in real life and in all games for many various reasons) is decided by what ship you are flying. Certain ship classes are supposed to be good against certain targets, and within these classes there are differences according to races. The racial differences may not be too apparent at all times as they must not break the ship class role. The frigates aren't damage dealing ships. In large packs they deal extreme amounts of damage, yes, but you have to remember that one player only flies one ship at a time. EVE isn't an RTS where Xirtam sat at home commanding the enitre CA fleet by his lonesome self, in EVE you have to put a decent amount of value to each players time and commitment to his role. Frigates are primarily tacklers, the ships that are least expensive but does the most dangerous and important work in combat - approach and hold (commonly known as tackle) Battleships are big and bulky. No longer the rarity they were back in the days of non-stacking penalty damage mods, they are the current ultimate damage ships. They are meant for the role of taking down other battleship class ships which has been tackled by frigates and immobilized further by cruisers. As they are big and bulky, they must at all times be protected and supported to perform optimally. This means that there's a bigger opportunity for more people to get value time rather than the rather boring one-ship-fleet ships that Ravens once were (Gemini). The frigate control is supposed to go to the Assault Frigates. Too slow to tackle efficiently, they have superior stayingpower even compared to most cruisers (due to resistance and signature radius). However, they do too poor damage. So if you wish for frigate control, please feel free to join any one of the "Boost our Assault Frigates!" threds out there. And remember, the ship is but a shroud you don. If the shroud is ill to your liking, there are others to wear. In other words, you are not your ship. Your ship can be replaced. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.06.29 08:23:00 - [100] Originally by: StokolaN Originally by: Elve Sorrow 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. What's wrong with a Raven being a good anti-frig BS? You folks that are pushing for all battleships to be exactly the same are just plain stupid. The fact that Ravens have absolutely no ability to snipe at all isn't good enough for you? I think the anti-frig ability is a fine tradeoff for being the absolute worst BS ever at range. Folks like you will always find something to whine about though. Ravens can't fit rails? ducks -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.06.29 10:11:00 - [101] To all the idiots talking out of their butts: Actually LOG ONTO TEST AND TRY THE CHANGES OUT. Also, note that if you DONT HAVE ADV MISSILE SKILLS TRAINED, you're the skill equivilent of a GUNNERY NOOB. So. Please. Stop making ignorant statements (this thread is full of them) and actually go see how the missile changes work for yourself before ranting on this thread. Spend a good couple days of training some of the new missile skills to lvl 3, and then spend a little while firing on different targets. Try out painters, Cruise versus Torps, all that good stuff. This thread is mired in ignorance. If you want to criticize PLEASE know what you're talking about. Thank you.
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.06.29 10:35:00 - [102] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: StokolaN Originally by: Elve Sorrow 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. What's wrong with a Raven being a good anti-frig BS? You folks that are pushing for all battleships to be exactly the same are just plain stupid. The fact that Ravens have absolutely no ability to snipe at all isn't good enough for you? I think the anti-frig ability is a fine tradeoff for being the absolute worst BS ever at range. Folks like you will always find something to whine about though. Ravens can't fit rails? ducks Heh, yeah, four of them. Without a single bonus to turrets though, they are shall we say, the lamest of the lame? Neither of the Caldari battleships gets either a damage bonus or a turret bonus. No instead one gets an EW bonus, the other one gets an RoF and Velocity bonus to missiles... Yay!
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.06.29 11:03:00 - [103] Originally by: Bleakheart Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: StokolaN Originally by: Elve Sorrow 10 to 60 is still way too much for torps vs frigs. Oh well, maybe one day a Raven won't be able to hit frigs atall like the rest of us. What's wrong with a Raven being a good anti-frig BS? You folks that are pushing for all battleships to be exactly the same are just plain stupid. The fact that Ravens have absolutely no ability to snipe at all isn't good enough for you? I think the anti-frig ability is a fine tradeoff for being the absolute worst BS ever at range. Folks like you will always find something to whine about though. Ravens can't fit rails? ducks Heh, yeah, four of them. Without a single bonus to turrets though, they are shall we say, the lamest of the lame? Neither of the Caldari battleships gets either a damage bonus or a turret bonus. No instead one gets an EW bonus, the other one gets an RoF and Velocity bonus to missiles... Yay! The Raven can fit up to 6 launchers with two decent missile bonuses, with the option of up to 4 turrets in its 8 highs. The Typhoon for instance can fit 4 turrets with crap bonuses and then 4 launchers with no bonuses in its 8 high slots, is the raven really so massively badly off ? To amarr knight above : another of the changes in the upcoming patch is supposed to be an increase in difficulty of level 4, particularly the BS/Bosses, in order that it takes two or more people to decently beat them, so you may not be able to completely blame the missile changes for trouble breaking BS tanks on missions. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.06.29 11:31:00 - [104] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm The Raven can fit up to 6 launchers with two decent missile bonuses, with the option of up to 4 turrets in its 8 highs. The Typhoon for instance can fit 4 turrets with crap bonuses and then 4 launchers with no bonuses in its 8 high slots, is the raven really so massively badly off ? To amarr knight above : another of the changes in the upcoming patch is supposed to be an increase in difficulty of level 4, particularly the BS/Bosses, in order that it takes two or more people to decently beat them, so you may not be able to completely blame the missile changes for trouble breaking BS tanks on missions. Yeah, I've seen the 'Phoon's bonuses and they're just as godawful as the Raven's.
Dray	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:36:00 - [105] Edited by: Dray on 29/06/2005 13:37:52 Im a maxed out raven jockey but I also fly inties and the simple fact of the matter is something had to change, 1 volley of torps or cruise and u were toast where as turret boats had to use drones and hope they got the inty before they got toasted by the rest of the gang. I'm sure many of the people here have flown a bs setup thats only defence against frigs/inties was drones, now the raven if it wants to be a big hitter will have to do the same which brings it in line with turret bs's, and just like turret ships they now have tech II goodness to look forward to (and the mad fitting req's), and peripheral missile skills which improve speed, rof, damage etc. Bottom line is that I cant really find a valid reason to argue against them having seen both sides of the argument. My only real concern is the missile type launcher restrictions, tho I can see why they've done it as the cruise launcher is currently the no brainer as its rof is slower than a seige and the seige can do everything a cruise does but faster and with a better capacity tho at a larger fitting requirement. Some might argue that the changes are too imbalanced if so that will change if during the painful adjustment phase it proves to be the case. The change had to come, now we have to wait and see if they were the right changes. I picked up this ace book today everyone rates it as a must buy for the budding military genius, tho ive decided to rename it as "Sun Tzu's art of the bloody obvious"
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:40:00 - [106] Originally by: Bleakheart Yeah, I've seen the 'Phoon's bonuses and they're just as godawful as the Raven's. Hahahhahahahahahahhaha Raven has bad bonuses... as bad as phoon... oh god... Oh thats a good one. Oh wait you weren't joking...
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:43:00 - [107]
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:52:00 - [108] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Bleakheart Yeah, I've seen the 'Phoon's bonuses and they're just as godawful as the Raven's. Hahahhahahahahahahhaha Raven has bad bonuses... as bad as phoon... oh god... Oh thats a good one. Oh wait you weren't joking... yeah I think that he wasn't joking aswell.. ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:53:00 - [109] I wish the phoons bonuses were as "bad" as the ravens, then it would ALMOST not be completely worthless.
Selim	Posted - 2005.06.29 13:56:00 - [110] OMG what do you mean phoon sucks, its awesaum!!!! It goes FASTER than the othar] BS! AND it can use nosferatu!!
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.06.29 14:06:00 - [111] Originally by: Selim OMG what do you mean phoon sucks, its awesaum!!!! It goes FASTER than the othar] BS! AND it can use nosferatu!! It can have FORR launchers and Lots of DROnES! And Fit armor tank that is good!!11
Nafri	Posted - 2005.06.29 14:09:00 - [112] and you can pretend to bring the trash out No sig today
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.06.29 14:27:00 - [113] A few things on various sub-topics: First, Ravens and turrets - the Raven does not have the GRID to do what the typhoon does and mix large guns and launchers. AFAIK, the Raven has the least grid of any battleship with the exception of the Scorpion. As for missiles, I've found that torpedos are just too weak vs. frigs and cruisers after the patch to bother using them when hunting. With the new warp-in options at 80km and 100km, I've weakened my tank by nixing the PDU II's and replacing them all with BCU's while replacing the siege launchers with cruise. I've found that this gives an excellent rate of fire and damage and allows you to kite entire battleship spawns as needed. As for PvP, I've found the setup works fairly well vs. other battleships at longer ranges and is excellent against frigates in general - I waxed a crow in 2 volleys at FFA on SiSi. Assault frigs, however, will be able to tank your missile damage, which is why heavy nos are your friend. Once they no longer have the cap to run armor repairers, it's a simple matter of time before an assault frig falls to your missiles.
Jasmyn	Posted - 2005.06.30 01:14:00 - [114] Originally by: X'Alor Some are wondering about torp at 5 what it's like. With torp 5 and current missle skills. Did not train any of the new advanced skills to possibly make them any better. frigs: 10 to 60 damage. sometimes seen 70's. cruisers: @100 average. up to 210 on hulls. Painted targets: only one painter activated frigs. 30 to 90 cruisers. didn't see much difference really: maybe 20 to 40 more damage to the above. Stasis didn't try but should also make a difference, probably more than painters but need more time to check it out. And you guys are really really really REALLY not gonna like torps on some the fast angel or mercenary BS's. The speed factor is way to great. Torps should do full damage on BS sized ships and if they are fast you'll be lucky to get cruiser damage out of torps 5 on fast BS's. On the same note: Apoc: T2 large beam skills. Multi xtal. painter. frig at 20km tach 2 averages 300 per shot. the absolute worst tracking large weapon. Not to fair or balanced if ya ask me. Looks like it's back to turrets. Maybe one day caldari will get a turret based BS. null hey did you ever think about maybe having some wingmen in smaller ships for support? you know..like its supposed to be? Someone once told me they loved me.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.06.30 02:01:00 - [115] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Admiral IceBlock battleships should not be easily destroyed by 10 frigates/interceptors. but currently they are right? Why shouldn't they? You're outnumbered 10 to 1! Size will only make up for lack of numbers so far. If a battleship is easily destroyed by 1 frigate, there is a problem. If it takes 10, there is no problem. One argument I often see about this is the comparative cost of the BS compared to the frigate gang. But what this forgets is that isk is not the only resource in the game. There is another one, even more important, and even more limited - manpower. I could buy a whole fleet of frigates for the cost of a battleship, but I can still only fly one ship at once. The battleship pilot is investing more isk than manpower, the frigate fleet is investing more manpower than isk. Superior manpower should count for just as much as superior equipment. Complete nonsense. Risk vs. Reward is what causes me to call BS on this issue. How much risk do 20 pillow humping(90% of them are no life, live in mommy's basement types anyway if their smacktalk is any indicator) fast movers assume in any usage of that word\concept when they saddle up in vessels that don't even approach a fraction of the value of that which they can destroy?
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.06.30 03:00:00 - [116] Because of the simple fact that Teamwork > You
Haoleboy	Posted - 2005.06.30 04:14:00 - [117] Originally by: Cummilla Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Admiral IceBlock battleships should not be easily destroyed by 10 frigates/interceptors. but currently they are right? Why shouldn't they? You're outnumbered 10 to 1! Size will only make up for lack of numbers so far. If a battleship is easily destroyed by 1 frigate, there is a problem. If it takes 10, there is no problem. One argument I often see about this is the comparative cost of the BS compared to the frigate gang. But what this forgets is that isk is not the only resource in the game. There is another one, even more important, and even more limited - manpower. I could buy a whole fleet of frigates for the cost of a battleship, but I can still only fly one ship at once. The battleship pilot is investing more isk than manpower, the frigate fleet is investing more manpower than isk. Superior manpower should count for just as much as superior equipment. Complete nonsense. Risk vs. Reward is what causes me to call BS on this issue. How much risk do 20 pillow humping(90% of them are no life, live in mommy's basement types anyway if their smacktalk is any indicator) fast movers assume in any usage of that word\concept when they saddle up in vessels that don't even approach a fraction of the value of that which they can destroy? I hope you look around and get a good picture. Numbers will beat tech 90% of the time. Nothing is invincable, and when your getting jumped by the ships you cant hit...guess what, you DIE! Solo-ers call for their own death. Hell, even cant solo mine...so why should a BS pilot be able to solo a frig fleet? Guns cant track worth ****...missles are your only hope, which most frigs can out run while they warp. Its like complaining that the Domi's 15 heavy drones brought down your BS...honestly now, do you think its that messed up? You can no longer use a Raven as your frig win button...oh well, now you will have to use something else...or gimp your setup. Changes are good. Wish missles could have agility, but I will take this over lag. Teamwork in a MMO...BRILLANT!

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