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Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.01.29 21:12:00 -
[241] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:If people left because they couldn't grind PLEX in the safety of NPC corps, that means the demand for PLEX would decrease as you say, meaning the buying power of PLEX would be diminished and players would be able to take part in emergent content and pay for their subs instead of being competitively disadvantaged if they do not restrict themselves to endless grinding.
what does this paragraph mean?
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:15:00 -
[242] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Yes thanks to abandoning carebear-catering expansions.
The biggest feature in retribution was to fix bounties. This allows industrialists to put bounties on people that mess with them, in hopes people will gank those people for the ISK. How is that not a carebear catering expansion?
Before that, we got a massive rework of mining barges/exhumers.
There were a couple releases iterating on FW, much of which focused on running plexes (PVE). Sure, the point was to hope that there was more PVP, but it actually involved PVE and created a lot of carebear mining those plexes..
Before that was Incarna, a pure carebear feature. And before that Incusrions.
So, what is the big non-PVP change in the last.. oh... 3 years? |
Aether Serval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:16:00 -
[243] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Yes thanks to abandoning carebear-catering expansions.
Lol wut?
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility
Incursion, is still the high point in long term player activity. The only expansion that even comes close since then is Retribution, notable for the crime watch changes the decimated hi sec mission griefing and made acts like can flipping some npc corp member flag you as free for all.
The War Dec focused Inferno expansion actually saw a drop in activity, funny that... |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:18:00 -
[244] - Quote
So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar?
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:25:00 -
[245] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
If people left because they couldn't grind PLEX in the safety of NPC corps, that means the demand for PLEX would decrease as you say, meaning the buying power of PLEX would be diminished and players would be able to take part in emergent content and pay for their subs instead of being competitively disadvantaged if they do not restrict themselves to endless grinding.
Let me see if I can pull your point out of this.
I can't grind ISK, so I can't buy PLEX.
Less demand for PLEX, but same number of people buying them with real to sell for ISK, means falling ISK prices.
At some point, PLEX prices get so low that people that are currently spending real so that they don't have to grind,are forced to spend time endlessly grinding ISK, and they will then look for new ways to grind ISK.
And that is good?
In the end, if it takes 40 toon/hours to get the minerals to build a BS, SOMEONE had to be spending the 40 toon/hours mining the minerals or there won't be a BS. If everyone is looking for "emergent" game play, and no one is farming minerals by mining, then there won't be anything on the market to buy.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2718
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:32:00 -
[246] - Quote
player activity on Incursion release: 31,488
player activity 6 months after Incusion release: 29,495
the 'carebear dollar' myth |
Oopsy Bear
Massively Masochistic Machos
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:33:00 -
[247] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps...
What problem?
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2718
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:33:00 -
[248] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar?
We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave.
Also that single players regular generate more kills then NPC corps with million+ of players |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:38:00 -
[249] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave.
I think the guy buying 15 PLEX to sell to guys like me is likely more important to CCP than your $15, chum.
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2718
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:41:00 -
[250] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave. I think the guy buying 15 PLEX to sell to guys like me is likely more important to CCP than your $15, chum.
SInce we're measuring validity of points by cash put in, and you put in zero...
well... |
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Aether Serval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.01.29 21:42:00 -
[251] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
player activity on Incursion release: 31,488
player activity 6 months after Incusion release: 29,495
the 'carebear dollar' myth
Comprehension fail? Or are we supposed to pretend that Incana never happened?
The player activity during incursion was over 32000 for nearly four months solid and has never been that high for that long before or since.
Only retribution comes close and, it's an expansion that did quite a lot the casual and less pvp centric crowd. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2719
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:51:00 -
[252] - Quote
Aether Serval wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
player activity on Incursion release: 31,488
player activity 6 months after Incusion release: 29,495
the 'carebear dollar' myth
Comprehension fail? Or are we supposed to pretend that Incana never happened? Number I cited was 1 month before Incarna (was released in June). You claimed Incursion was the greatest success for long-term player activity. When I point out that active players declined rapidly after a brief surge with the PvE-centric expansion, 'long-term' is now defined as less then a third of a year. |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:52:00 -
[253] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave. I think the guy buying 15 PLEX to sell to guys like me is likely more important to CCP than your $15, chum. SInce we're measuring validity of points by cash put in, and you put in zero... well...
No that's what you're doing. I recognise that CCP don't care and that PLEX is brillant for the professional and poor alike. everyone wins with PLEX.
And actually I subbed for 7 months if that makes you less unhappy and I will likely do so again ASAP as mining for PLEX is a little bleak.
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:55:00 -
[254] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave. Also that single players regularly generate more kills then NPC corps with a million+ players
We learned that people playing via PLEX are not paying for free. They pay by grinding ISK for others, so those others will pay for them to play. CCP makes the same real whether I pay for my 4 accounts, or someone else pays for my accounts via PLEX.
We learned that there are people that want to make it easier to mess with carebears. There are already plenty of mechanisms for messing with those carebears, not the least of which is the suicide gank, but those just aren't good enough for these dissatisfied wanna-be griefers. They want to remove the mechanism that prevents them from wardec'ing anyone at any time.
We learned that people will claim to be PVE'ers, while making comment after comment that sure makes them seem like someone that PVP's a lot.
We learned that people will use faulty statistics, like the fact that there is less activity in spring than fall every year (it's called spring break) to prove that Incursions turned people off EVE. Or maybe it was just people getting tired of logging on to restart their PI, more carebear stuff introduced 6 months before Incursions, that triggered all that activity in those 6 months prior?
We learned that despite ample evidence, some people won't accept that CCP is attempting to cater to a wide variety of play styles and that there is no one single play style that is "the right way to play EVE", nor is CCP about to make major game changes to force carebears to choose between PVPing or dropping the game.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2720
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:09:00 -
[255] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave. I think the guy buying 15 PLEX to sell to guys like me is likely more important to CCP than your $15, chum. SInce we're measuring validity of points by cash put in, and you put in zero... well... No that's what you're doing. No. I am responding to arguments that NPC corps should not be balanced or removed because the 'carebear dollar is too important'. These arguments contend that balance should be ignored because money trumps game integrity - measuring validity by cash put in, effectively. In any case, it's a false argument, vital quality of the 'carebear dollar' is largely a myth since PvE-centric expansions have been far less successful then expansions like Dominion or Apocrypha.
I don't really care how you pay for your sub, I merely object to the concept that "endless grinding and gold farming so I can PLEX several eve subs" is a 'playstyle' that needs to be respected & catered to at all costs and granted special advantages like wardec immunity. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:11:00 -
[256] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:So what have we learned today, except that bittervets need to push the unsub button and come back when the game they think they want and CCP have deployed are more similar? We learned that guys who don't pay for the subs threaten to bankrupt CCP if their kind leave. I think the guy buying 15 PLEX to sell to guys like me is likely more important to CCP than your $15, chum. SInce we're measuring validity of points by cash put in, and you put in zero... well... No that's what you're doing. I recognise that CCP don't care and that PLEX is brillant for the professional and poor alike. everyone wins with PLEX. And actually I subbed for 7 months if that makes you less unhappy and I will likely do so again ASAP as mining for PLEX is a little bleak.
I subbed for a couple years before switching to PLEX.
It doesn't matter if I'm paying for my 4 accounts, or someone else is paying for my 4 accounts, CCP is getting paid for my 4 accounts.
If everyone quit playing via PLEX, no one would be buying PLEX for real money. |
Aether Serval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:14:00 -
[257] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Number I cited was 1 month before Incarna (was released in June). You claimed Incursion was the greatest success for long-term player activity. When I point out that active players declined rapidly after a brief surge with the PvE-centric expansion, 'long-term' is now defined as less then a third of a year.
So you are ignoring Incarna to make Incursion look bad, glad we could clear that up.
Now any comment on the poor reception and player retention of the war dec focused Inferno expansion versus the good reception of say the Retribution expansion and all its casual friendly features?
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Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:22:00 -
[258] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I don't really care how you pay for your sub, I merely object to the concept that "endless grinding and gold farming so I can PLEX several eve subs" is a 'playstyle' that needs to be respected & catered to at all costs and granted special advantages like wardec immunity.
they're not catering to me though, they're catering to the guy on the other side of that trade. He's the guy paying hundreds of dollars so he doesn't have to grind.
So the list of things you don't like includes segregated PvP and PvE 'arenas' , gold auctions and metagaming. Are you sure this game is really for you?
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2720
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:25:00 -
[259] - Quote
Aether Serval wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Number I cited was 1 month before Incarna (was released in June). You claimed Incursion was the greatest success for long-term player activity. When I point out that active players declined rapidly after a brief surge with the PvE-centric expansion, 'long-term' is now defined as less then a third of a year. So you are ignoring Incarna to make Incursion look bad So you are ignoring Incursion to make Incursion look good. Glad we can establish that. Ban NPC corps. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2720
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:28:00 -
[260] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I don't really care how you pay for your sub, I merely object to the concept that "endless grinding and gold farming so I can PLEX several eve subs" is a 'playstyle' that needs to be respected & catered to at all costs and granted special advantages like wardec immunity. they're not catering to me though, they're catering to the guy on the other side of that trade. He's the guy paying hundreds of dollars so he doesn't have to grind. Indeed, so there is no problem if NPC corps are removed.
Quote:So the list of things you don't like includes segregated PvP and PvE 'arenas' , gold auctions and metagaming. Are you sure this game is really for you? For an NPC corp member I guess those sound like very anti-EVE qualities. |
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Aether Serval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2013.01.29 22:29:00 -
[261] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
So you are ignoring Incursion to make Incursion look good. Glad we can establish that. Ban NPC corps.
You do know deleting everything that proves you wrong in a quote still leaves it readable in the op right? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2720
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:32:00 -
[262] - Quote
Aether Serval wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
So you are ignoring Incursion to make Incursion look good. Glad we can establish that. Ban NPC corps.
You do know deleting everything that proves you wrong in a quote still leaves it readable in the op right?
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:player activity on Incursion release: 31,488
player activity 6 months after Incusion release: 29,495
Still there. |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:37:00 -
[263] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I don't really care how you pay for your sub, I merely object to the concept that "endless grinding and gold farming so I can PLEX several eve subs" is a 'playstyle' that needs to be respected & catered to at all costs and granted special advantages like wardec immunity. they're not catering to me though, they're catering to the guy on the other side of that trade. He's the guy paying hundreds of dollars so he doesn't have to grind. Indeed, so there is no problem if NPC corps are removed. Quote:So the list of things you don't like includes segregated PvP and PvE 'arenas' , gold auctions and metagaming. Are you sure this game is really for you? For an NPC corp member I guess those sound like very anti-EVE qualities.
well that seems incoherent. don't feel you need to keep replying if you can't make the effort. I think we all got the slogan.
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2720
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 22:45:00 -
[264] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:well that seems incoherent. don't feel you need to keep replying if you can't make the effort. I think we all got the slogan. Incoherent is claiming being against 'segregated PVP and PVE arenas' is an anti-EVE quality. |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 23:02:00 -
[265] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Skeln Thargensen wrote:well that seems incoherent. don't feel you need to keep replying if you can't make the effort. I think we all got the slogan. Incoherent is claiming a position of being against 'segregated PVP and PVE arenas' is an anti-EVE quality.
they aren't really though it's legit to gank people. that's very eve.
lol do you really have a 10% corp tax rate? that seems a little steep.
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2721
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:10:00 -
[266] - Quote
Goonswarm's is 15% |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
219
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:37:00 -
[267] - Quote
so many stupid people posting in this thread. Im not going to exclude myself from that tbh, but seriously:
C.S.Lewis wrote:Logic! Why don't they teach logic at these schools? There are only three possibilities. Either your sister is telling lies, or she is mad, or she is telling the truth. You know she doesn't tell lies and it is obvious that she is not mad. For the moment then and unless any further evidence turns up, we must assume that she is telling the truth."
Logic people, logic:
NPC corps are a problem why?
bottom line: players are avoiding pvp by being in these corps, correct?
so we nerf the NPC corps. Then what?
Thousands of small player corps that can be decced. Then what?
Thousands of small corps being recycled to avoid war-decs. Then what?
Change the war system (again). Then what?
Thousands of players either find a new way to circumvent the new system or they leave the game.
net result:
no increase in pvp
possible loss of subscriptions and resulting less interesting EvE universe.
The problem is not the NPC corps, the problem is your percieved idea of how other people should play this game.
please look at my thread in F&I about stealth and camo in EvE |
Skeln Thargensen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 23:38:00 -
[268] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Goonswarm's is 15%, player average is 10%.
Well I think 11% for high sec immunity is a pretty good taxation deal. 10% to be part of a pyramid scheme not so much.
I take back my previous statements and judgements of others. -áyou can mine in iteron if you want. |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
412
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:51:00 -
[269] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Goonswarm's is 15%, player average is 10%.
Wait....Goonswarm is 15%?????
Wow, now why would a Corp that controls a significant portion of the Moon-Goo isk faucet charge their players 15% tax?
Are there really that many mindless drones out there? 
The single biggest danger to EVE is the proliferation of ALTS! Kill an alt today!
Petition for a Minimum bounty of 10 mil. Prevent useless bounties!
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
40
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Posted - 2013.01.29 23:59:00 -
[270] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Also that single players regularly generate more kills then NPC corps with a million+ players
OK, let me just clarify, since you still aren't getting it, despite the numerous hints. There are not a million players in the entire game of EVE Online, therefore, it is impossible that any NPC corp has a million players. Get it? There are likely only a few thousand in each NPC corp, and many of those are alts of "real" players, whose PVP stats on other characters are probably much better than on their NPC corp alt. That being because they use their NPC alt for things other than PVPing (or suicide scouting, cyno alting, logistics, and other combat SUPPORT), thus skewing the the statistics. Then, the only people earnestly contributing to the PVP statistics are noobs, who die at a disproportionately higher rate due the their skillpoint and experience disadvantage.
Your NPC corp member count is off by a factor of about 500. NPC alts don't tend to used be for direct ship combat. Noobs in NPC corps tend to die. |
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