Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

isn't main reason for npc corp isk sink....just up it 2x time and some peeps will bail to player controlled farming corp for sure.

while it might work; why not put the effort in to giving player corps something to offer players instead of just making NPC corps terrible?

That is already within the remit of players corps to some extent.

The problem lies more in the cost of mitigation. If a player corp has say a 5% tax rate they are competing against an 11% tax rate that provides complete protection against a wardec, well worth a measly 6%.

while it might work; why not put the effort in to giving player corps something to offer players instead of just making NPC corps terrible?

My corp gives me free ships, logistics to wherever I want to go, people to fly with and like 1% tax rate. Name me a NPC corp that does better than that.

Give new players a 3-6 month training time with NPC corps and then throw them into a FW corp. I have a hard time coming up with reasons why this would be bad. People can recycle characters and form 1 man corps to get around this. The change would point players towards more player interaction and competitive pvp as well as give players a sense of identity. Make it so you need at least 5 people to have a corp (like in other mmorpgs) and oh man now you have chaos.

i'm a miner, tax rate means nothing to me. although, player corps can't offer me anything i can't get in an npc corp as a miner. that's why i'm in an npc corp.

That's a very good point, maybe tax mining yields for NPC corps then

My corp gives me free ships, logistics to wherever I want to go, people to fly with and like 1% tax rate. Name me a NPC corp that does better than that.

Give new players a 3-6 month training time with NPC corps and then throw them into a FW corp. I have a hard time coming up with reasons why this would be bad. People can recycle characters and form 1 man corps to get around this. The change would point players towards more player interaction and competitive pvp as well as give players a sense of identity. Make it so you need at least 5 people to have a corp (like in other mmorpgs) and oh man now you have chaos.

again, why not just make player corps attractive rather than making npc corps unattractive?

The problem is that you then have to artificially add something to player corps. If it has an ISK value it would then be exploited to death.

I suppose you could have some sort of base efficiency multiplier so that for example a miner in a player corp mined at 115% efficiency over an NPC miner at 100% (hope that makes sense)

The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps is pretty obvious to me, and implementing this will add content, give greater meaning to character racial choices, and overall improve the Storyline of EvE Online.

Make the NPC Corps an active part of the Faction War system. If you don't want to be an Economical or Political Faction War targetable asset, then you can always form your own corporation. Seriously, only the Training Academys and Schools should be neutral and protected. Everything else should rightfully be either a player owned corp, or a part of the Ruling Faction of their area of High Sec. Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.

again, why not just make player corps attractive rather than making npc corps unattractive?

I think the industry nerfs would be fair but this won't persuade people who don't want to be in player corps. they don't want the politics, the game running their life and they don't want to do boring activities with other people.

Or, why not allow people to join any NPC corp they want if they have enough standing to be accepted, give them different disadvantages, different ongoing feuds with different other corps from other or even the same empire or be part of the militia for factional warfare and then people can decide on their own how and when they want to be exposed as you propose here.

You know, variety and choice is always superior to threats, punishment and violence when it comes to motivating people on the long run.

Not important - the goal is to create gameplay where you aren't rewarded with things like free wardec immunity for not participating socially in a mmo. CCP needs to come down hard on all forms of wardec evasion, which cannot happen unless things like NPC corps (in their current form) are removed.

Not important - the goal is to create gameplay where you aren't rewarded with things like free wardec immunity for not participating socially in a mmo. CCP needs to come down hard on all forms of wardec evasion, which cannot happen unless things like NPC corps (in their current form) are removed.

sorry but i pay my 11% to CONCORD

as I said, if you want to replace CONCORD protection with friendly neighborhood family protection then that would be a way for a freelancer to survive in a world of wardecs. that would be a way to push the player driven game forward.

When you haul things, does the NPC corp tax your cargo space? when you mine, does it directly cut the ore yield, or the refine rate? No.

I agree, replacing the guaranteed concord protection with a 'freelancer' system is the way to go. Let the players decide for themselves whether going it alone or defending as part of a team works best.

How exactly does someone in an NPC corp not socially interact?
The most active corp chats I've ever been in have been NPC Corps.
Random fleet ups occur.
People want help, fitting advice, skill training discussions.....

I'd say the people in NPC corps interact socially and engage in the 'Multiplayer' aspect just fine thank you.

How exactly does someone in an NPC corp not socially interact?
The most active corp chats I've ever been in have been NPC Corps.
Random fleet ups occur.
People want help, fitting advice, skill training discussions.....

I'd say the people in NPC corps interact socially and engage in the 'Multiplayer' aspect just fine thank you.

The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps is pretty obvious to me, and implementing this will add content, give greater meaning to character racial choices, and overall improve the Storyline of EvE Online.

Make the NPC Corps an active part of the Faction War system. If you don't want to be an Economical or Political Faction War targetable asset, then you can always form your own corporation. Seriously, only the Training Academys and Schools should be neutral and protected. Everything else should rightfully be either a player owned corp, or a part of the Ruling Faction of their area of High Sec. Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.

again, why not just make player corps attractive rather than making npc corps unattractive?

I agree, replacing the guaranteed concord protection with a 'freelancer' system is the way to go. Let the players decide for themselves whether going it alone or defending as part of a team works best.

we have this system in 0.0 already. in WH. Is it really needed to bring it into high-sec too?

Because while we are at this point why not remove all stargates and local chat all around the Universe? Because WHs show - this works well.

Some question how an NPC corp hurts me?

I can think of a number of ways.

1) I would like to "stake a claim" upon the asteroid belts in a particular system. Competitors that come in to mine "our" ores should be wardecable. We are merely defending our terf. No, we are not big enough to move into Nullsec, and we have no desire to be a renter. But we should be able to fend off competitors. I can't tell you how often I've seen entire systems stripped by hoards of NPC mining Bots.

2) The same goes for Signatures and Anomolies. We catch you scanning in our constellation and we would like to once again fend off the competition. It is most difficult to control a local market if there are swarms of "untouchable" competitors.

3) Yes, Ganking is an option, but it is a very costly and inefficient one in comparison to simply declaring war.

There are numerous reasons for conducting warfare, being territorial is one good reason.
Just imagine the tears if Player Corps and Alliances were unable to engage someone in Nullsec simply because they were in an NPC Corp, and they would risk having their SuperCap Instapoped by Concord if they tried.

See my point?

Some question how an NPC corp hurts me?

I can think of a number of ways.
...
See my point?

I already said i don't mind potential nerfs to industry and you said that wasn't the point.

this is a sandbox game. you should be able to play it how you want to..

How exactly does someone in an NPC corp not socially interact?
The most active corp chats I've ever been in have been NPC Corps.
Random fleet ups occur.
People want help, fitting advice, skill training discussions.....

I'd say the people in NPC corps interact socially and engage in the 'Multiplayer' aspect just fine thank you.

How about low-sec or w-hole? These are two area with nothing stopping you from "staking a claim" which is something you have no right too do in EMPIRE space. Empire is for everyone.

Why should he have to go to lowsec (which you seem to think isn't empire space) if he doesn't want to?

As for his rights, like yours, they end in optimal + 2 x falloff. If he wants to assert his rights in highsec he's more than welcome to try, and good luck to him.

Contesting things and direct competition (PVP) are not 'wh and lowsec features', sorry.
Ban NPC corps.

Only if NPC corps could be wardecced collectively. Otherwise no.

If one person isn't enough to deal with the wardecs, they can consider joining a corp for mutual protection purposes.
As opposed to now where PvE players are kept on safe NPC corp protected alts while the PvP mains pick on newbie corps. Another way in which NPC corps harm newbies.

Only if NPC corps could be wardecced collectively. Otherwise no.

If one person isn't enough to deal with the wardecs, ...

... they can consider joining a corp for mutual protection purposes.

As opposed to now where PvE players are kept on safe NPC corp protected alts while the PvP mains pick on newbie corps. Another way in which NPC corps harm newbies.

He just asks for easy mode. Which is not good.

...i just find it odd how so many people in a capitalist simulation are determined to engage in monolithic collectivist activities when commodities and services can be purchased from other players who specialise.

Some question how an NPC corp hurts me?

I can think of a number of ways.

1) I would like to "stake a claim" upon the asteroid belts in a particular system. Competitors that come in to mine "our" ores should be wardecable. We are merely defending our terf. No, we are not big enough to move into Nullsec, and we have no desire to be a renter. But we should be able to fend off competitors. I can't tell you how often I've seen entire systems stripped by hoards of NPC mining Bots.

2) The same goes for Signatures and Anomolies. We catch you scanning in our constellation and we would like to once again fend off the competition. It is most difficult to control a local market if there are swarms of "untouchable" competitors.

3) Yes, Ganking is an option, but it is a very costly and inefficient one in comparison to simply declaring war.

There are numerous reasons for conducting warfare, being territorial is one good reason.
Just imagine the tears if Player Corps and Alliances were unable to engage someone in Nullsec simply because they were in an NPC Corp, and they would risk having their SuperCap Instapoped by Concord if they tried.

See my point?

Ahhh, this old thread again...

Want to be able to place a war declaration upon us "sub par" players that do not play the game correctly? Then why doesn't CCP make it individuals can be tagged, instead of a corporations, so players can not jump away to void it?

The next complaint, of course, will be these war declared individuals are not leaving the station. So CCP should offer the option to ~force~ a player out of a station so they can be attacked!

But then what if the player does not log into the game to play? Well hell, CCP should go one step further and offer the option for these war mongering players to ~force~ their targets to be logged in at their leisure!!! Real life is no excuse to these fanatical fan boys to get their fix.

again, why not just make player corps attractive rather than making npc corps unattractive?

Oh yes I can.
Replace them with 'freelancer' status that is effectively a one-man corp, deccable like them too. Wardecs should be the base minimum of threat in New Eden.

they can consider joining a corp for mutual protection purposes.

Sounds like prison.

well that's not going to change if you ban NPC corps as you have no way of telling whose alts are whose without an API key, unless they make it very obvious.

why not insta pop? you know: little button in overview like "killrights available".
When someone from Unthinkables wants he just can insta-pop anyone around. This was you will have enough wins i suppose?

I've also have always found that to be so common, yet so odd, in many MMO's myself. But as in RL, the Collectivists have a natural enemy in the Indivisualist. as long as their is one Indivisualist around, the Collective is always threatened.

.. [snip] ..

That doesn't really apply to this dicussion though since there are huge numbers of 'individualists' who play with 1-man player corps, while most of the largest collectivist organizations in the game use alts in NPC corps to ferry alliance supplies, logistics and moongoo around unimpeded.

People moan and whine about having to pay 600m isk to dec goonswarm now, yet paying 600m ISK cost per single freighter attack is now 'totally feasible' disruption operation? Heh.

Minimal courier costs and guaranteed delivery are just some of the things that will be fixed by removing NPC corps and other forms of wardec evasion. Imagine if those horrid collectivist groups had to actively defend their supply lines instead of just effortlessly moving goods through proxies and alts.

That doesn't really apply to this dicussion though since there are huge numbers of 'individualists' who play with 1-man player corps, while most of the largest collectivist organizations in the game use alts in NPC corps to ferry alliance supplies, logistics and moongoo around unimpeded.

True, but incentivising collective security, or at least diminishing the mass of incentives pushing people to keep their PvE and PvP chars seperate, is a good start towards that goal.

People moan and whine about having to pay 600m isk to dec goonswarm now, yet paying 600m ISK cost per single freighter attack is now 'totally feasible' disruption operation? Heh.

Minimal courier costs and guaranteed delivery are just some of the things that will be fixed by removing NPC corps and other forms of wardec evasion. Imagine if those horrid collectivist groups had to actively defend their supply lines instead of just effortlessly moving goods through proxies and alts.

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.

[quote=Nicolo da'Vicenza] Hi-sec is already much more dangerous then null/low, so it looks like the the collective is already good at trying to protect their supply lines.

isn't main reason for npc corp isk sink....just up it 2x time and some peeps will bail to player controlled farming corp for sure.

this post tells me you've been down in null sec for far too long. really, so the player run economy is the problem now?

Nullsec has more ship losses (50.1%) then all other regions combined despite having only 20% of the active player population, the concept that highsec is more dangerous then any other space, except perhaps wormhole space, is a comforting untruth. Still, you touch on a correct idea - that the supply lines are very, very secure thanks to alts in NPC corps. So much so that nullsec can consume the majority of highsec's output with very little effort on their end to secure their unguarded assets against highsec PVPers.

How did you get that from my post?

Not really, most of the nullsec kills come from hi-seccers wanting to explore null sec for the first time

cos you're going on about supply lines which means absolutely nothing outside of sov null. .

http://red-frog.org

you can wardec them though but i understand their cunning dec shield arrangement means it will cost you an immense amount of ISK.

Yes they do.

if you think they use their mains

The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps is pretty obvious to me, and implementing this will add content, give greater meaning to character racial choices, and overall improve the Storyline of EvE Online.

Make the NPC Corps an active part of the Faction War system. If you don't want to be an Economical or Political Faction War targetable asset, then you can always form your own corporation. Seriously, only the Training Academys and Schools should be neutral and protected. Everything else should rightfully be either a player owned corp, or a part of the Ruling Faction of their area of High Sec. Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.

then everyone will just keep their NPC alt in their noob school.

like me lol.

i have to say i like the idea of getting rid of anything but noob npc corps and making a character independent if they are not members of a corp...

that way it takes away the war dec shield as you can now war dec a character...

i would also make standard personal tax rate of 10% that goes as a fee to concord for non corp membership registration fees... the fees are used for stargate maintenance as a pr excuse....

ok then and after x amount of time or gained sp you are given the choice to either join FW of your choice or go it alone...

The simple solution to the High Sec problem of NPC Corps is pretty obvious to me, and implementing this will add content, give greater meaning to character racial choices, and overall improve the Storyline of EvE Online.

Make the NPC Corps an active part of the Faction War system. If you don't want to be an Economical or Political Faction War targetable asset, then you can always form your own corporation. Seriously, only the Training Academys and Schools should be neutral and protected. Everything else should rightfully be either a player owned corp, or a part of the Ruling Faction of their area of High Sec. Honestly, if you don't want to be involved in EvE Online just go find another game....

I know I can hear the trolls and carebears already lining up to trash this idea, but hey this is what happens in GD.

.

Absolutely!

And NPC faction navies should be able to deploy their own caps and supers in highsec as well.

What a sad post.

Simple solution is leave them as they are - working as intended.

Why the hell you can't just leave other people to enjoy the game as they see fit is weird. There is massive content all over the game, why the hell do you worry yourself about what people in NPC corps are doing.

Sandbox done well means enjoying the game in an infinite number of ways. This is the absolute strength of Eve. Why you would want to narrow it would be completely counter productive - reducing player numbers.

Encourage and recruit people from NPC corps if you are so worried they are missing out on stuff and are going to sit in NPC forever.

This is worse than misunderstanding, this is a lie. There is Zero evidence that people will quit the game for anyreason except ridiculasly expensive monocles. That "carebear conventional wisdom" that people will quit the game if you change something has not only been proven false,it's been proven false RECENTLY. people swore they would quit with the NPC AI change and nerfed heavy missiles, yet I see no slackin in the carebearin.

Because of basic game product fairness. If I pahy a sub, can make isk and can be war decced, EVERYONE beyond the noob stage should likewsie be vulnerable to the same thing (OR their should be some massive advantage to bine in a player corp to compensate.)

they are already penalized for being in an NPC corp.

not really.

not really.

Okay, after catching up on the thread, I see a particular thing repeated over and over again by NPC corp members:

"I'm not interested in PVP" . . .

Like AFK cloaking it isn't remotely an issue. Let people play how they want to, they are already penalized for being in an NPC corp.

State War Academy
Try again.

Members: 1,334,561
Kills per month: 487

State War Academy
Center for Advanced Studies
Republic Military School
Viziam
etc., etc., etc.

Try again.

Members: 1,334,561
Kills per month: 487

No they aren't. NPC corps need to removed so that the rest of New Eden stops being penalized. because only pew-pew oriented players have rights to profit

Look. People aren't dumb. If an industrialist doesn't want to fight he is either going to do 3 things:

1. Go back to NPC corp.

2. Start another 1 man corp.

3. Stay docked.

If the industrialist can't do 1 or 2, he'll do 3 and if he has to do 3 he might as well quit the game since there is only so much fun you can get out of watching your ships in dock.

Just because some people in [NPC corps, player corps, high sec, low sec, null, Jita, wormholes, etc.] do [PVP, PVE, exploration, mining, trading, manufacturing, etc.] doesn't mean they all do. The fact is, a LOT of peopl are using [NPC corps, player corps, high sec, low sec, null, Jita, wormholes, etc.] as shelters from [PVP, PVE, exploration, mining, trading, manufacturing, etc.] while continuing to engage in other [PVP, PVE, exploration, mining, trading, manufacturing, etc.] aspects of the game. This is imbalanced and frankly needs to be ended.

edited for clarity

Active EVE accounts: ~350,000

/hurr

Members: 1,334,561
Kills per month: 487

I see that hisec haters degraded to hardcore demagogy.

Pilot details - Donedy
kills last month = 538


my mistake npc corps clearly love PVP

Pilot details - Donedy
kills last month = 538


my mistake npc corps clearly love PVP

He said we don't do ship combat against other players.

Dude, i was reacting on your disgusting demagogy that State war academy has 1,334,561 members while you clearly know that majority of them are inactive trial accounts.

in a corporation of hundreds of thousands

Active EVE accounts: ~350,000

Because of basic game product fairness. If I pahy a sub, can make isk and can be war decced, EVERYONE beyond the noob stage should likewsie be vulnerable to the same thing (OR their should be some massive advantage to bine in a player corp to compensate).

NPC Corps are an exampleof a lot that's wrong with High Sec and why high sec personalietes are....off.

An NPC corp is litterally CCP saying to a player "YOU can come in and play the game and have an affect on everyone else, but no one can screw with YOU unless they suicide their ship or you aggress 1st".

It's BS.

hm yes I heard there was a 2700 man fight the other day, must be a lot of hiseccers wanting to explore null sec for the first time at once. it's a good thing you opened your post with this statement btw.

Because that totally negates the point I was making...

Wait, no it doesn't. Just because some people in NPC corps do PVP doesn't mean they all do. The fact is, a LOT of peopl are using them as shelters from combat while continuing to engage in other PVP aspects of the game. This is imbalanced and frankly needs to be ended.

State War Academy
Center for Advanced Studies
Republic Military School
Viziam
etc., etc., etc.

Try again.

I back the suggestion of increasing NPC corp tax again.

Excellent Example of what I'm talking about here...
These are all War Training Academies, Military Schools, and such...
You run missions for Agents and they are combat based, or provide in some way for the War Effort.
There are even "Storyline" missions that do so.
Everything I read about Empire talks about the War between the Various Factions.
Yet ... a Caldari pilot in an NPC corp that is technically (and clearly documented by storyline, history, CCP video Promos, and advertising) at war with the Gallentee, cannot engage a Gallentee NPC target in Gallentee Empire space?

something is Broken!

An interesting statement which seems to indicate that you have a great deal of data on how many people quit the game or reduce accounts and their reasons. While I'm sure very little can ever come to the same level of the summer of rage, I'd be genuinely surprised if a change as widespread as this wouldn't cause at least a few people to rage quit.

Jenn - maybe you (or anyone else) could tell me what people in NPC corps are doing that affects your game so much to make you this mad.

All I saw was a lot of new players getting their first taste of the social side of Eve in an environment that was 99.9% of the time non-exploitative and then a handful of long term players who had made friends in NPC and for whom that corp was their community.

I don't think its the optimum way to enjoy the game but I am not seeing some huge need to kick their game in and for new players the mechanism is working fine.

Will you next demand that everyone eject from station once a day just so they can be shot at by you?

You choose to be in a player corp. With that advantage (adjustable tax rate, ability to set corp standings, shared corp standings, join an alliance, corp hangers, pos ownership, ability to recruit, assign roles, etc), whether you have it or your directors do, comes the added risk of wardecs. Your assumption is that everyone should face the risk of being wardecced. The reality is that risk only happens to those who choose to be in a player corporation.

And being in a corp does confer a huge advantage. Do you think members if goon or test would wish to be forced to set personal standings for every enemy, blue, light blue, etc, that they face? How many people have jump clones because of a player corp?

Your view is that these npc corp members take no risk, and have huge reward. The reality is, they are limited by their choice too, and for that risk they take, they are rewarded with wardec immunity.

Every isk a player makes lessens the value of my isk. Every min they mine lessens the value of my mins (if I mined lol).

And where is the evidence to support this belief? It's not supported in the least by the information that is readily available (and that people like I believe Tippia and Malcanis have linked over and over again).

No, that's just believe what fits your wants and needs rather than what you can prove. And it happens all the time here.

There has been the idea of in station assassinations for those people. Now with DUST 514, you could hire them for a hit and the Capsuleers in station has to pay for security and personnel to defend themselves.

He said we don't do ship combat against other players

you'll have to end multiple characters /accounts then.

why would I do PvP on this character when he's not skilled for combat?

Why would I hoard SP on one character when clone costs are potentially more than my ships?

how can i join a pvp corp with my other character when they explicitly forbid you to have alts in player corps?

Hrm... I don't know if people will quit the game, but it is a known fact that higher taxes on NPC corps did not result in players joining player run corporation en masse. Players do start their own 1 man corps for missioning and POS stuff, but otherwise they will just drop the corp if they are war dec'd.

Forcing people out of NPC corps will just result in a bunch of one man corps that will result in less player interaction.

Believe it or not communication and interaction happens all the time in NPC corps. There are about 500 people in the NPC corp on this alt for example and I often take time to answer players questions to help them out and even donte money to people that meet certain criteria.

Take that away and people will just be in a one man corp sitting silently in local doing whatever they do to make isk.

I suppose you could say war dec's will force one man players into larger corpoartions.

That doesn't happen now and that won't happen even if you prevent players from disbanding, leaving, and generally forcing them to keep playing with the war dec, they won't undock.

And you basically can't force people to undock.

Also, on a side note, some of the major people who earn massive amounts of isk in hi-sec are station trades who by their very nature do not undock.

Anyways, back to my previous point. You could in theory force everyone out of NPC corps into one man corps and then you could force them to stay in those corps while they are war dec'd but you can't force them to undock.

And if you are playing a game where you can't undock, you get bored and if you get bored you think about canceling your sub.

Now there is no hard scientific proof that people who can't/won't/don't undock will automatically cancel their accounts.

But if I personally played a game where I had to stay docked all day, then I'd probaly quit. And if I quit, stastically other people quit too.

Personally, I'm in FW so when I undock I'll probaly get killed in low sec somewhere, but I'm talking about the people who are in NPC corps for a reason.

There is no good way you can solve this problem by force.

You have to make player run corps and alliances more attractive to players through buffing player run corps. Not by nerfing NPC corps. That is the only way.

example: If your corp has more than 50 players than give like a 5% bonus in mining ore or mission LP yield to everyone in that corp.

Who exactly is talking about "interaction". i don't personally care about whether or not a person choose to interact socially with others.

I'm talking about the need for CCP to ensure account holder fairness. While "fairness" is not an issue in game (all is fair in love and EVE), EVe as a product should be consistant in how it treats it's players.

Saying to us " make your own destiny" then giving an option to opt out of a very key game mechanic (the ability to be war decced) is not consistent at all. If you are able to affect the game, you should be liable to negative affects as well. Allowing non-noob players to stay forever in a situation where other players must pay a high cost to disrupt them while imposing no real cost on the NPC corp player is uneven.

The mission runner and explorers of NPC corps at least have to pay an elevated tax. But what cost does the miner and hauler pay? NPC corps are not just unfair to everyone else, as currently constituted, they are unfair to their own memebers.

Something has to give, with new taxes and/or restrictions (like a "tax" on mining and hauling or restrictions on what kinds of ships NPC corp pilots can fly ie no tech 2 mining ships and frieghters/orcas for NPC corp members).

Situations that confer signifigant advantages without conferring signifigant costs/trade offs should not be allowed in EVE online.

Serioulsy, you got you're #'s from a one-off anomaly? RvB had 16,000 kills the same day in Poinen..0.6 space.

I'm not skilled to make optimal use of the market, yet I participate in that.



No one said you had to.



I've never known a PVP corp that forbade its members from having alts on player corps. CERTAIN player corps, yes, but lots of the PVP corp members I know have various PVE alts in player corps.

People posting lots of words about how NPC corps should be fixed, and how to circumvent those fixes.

Best solution is still their outright removal.

Best solution is still their outright removal.

I'm talking about the need for CCP to ensure account holder fairness. While "fairness" is not an issue in game (all is fair in love and EVE), EVe as a product should be consistant in how it treats it's players.

Saying to us " make your own destiny" then giving an option to opt out of a very key game mechanic (the ability to be war decced) is not consistent at all. If you are able to affect the game, you should be liable to negative affects as well. Allowing non-noob players to stay forever in a situation where other players must pay a high cost to disrupt them while imposing no real cost on the NPC corp player is uneven.

The mission runner and explorers of NPC corps at least have to pay an elevated tax. But what cost does the miner and hauler pay? NPC corps are not just unfair to everyone else, as currently constituted, they are unfair to their own memebers.

Something has to give, with new taxes and/or restrictions (like a "tax" on mining and hauling or restrictions on what kinds of ships NPC corp pilots can fly ie no tech 2 mining ships and frieghters/orcas for NPC corp members).

Situations that confer signifigant advantages without conferring signifigant costs/trade offs should not be allowed in EVE online.

i still fail to see any "unfairness" here.

Being in NPC corp player you have access to something + wardec invulnerability.
Being in player corp player you have access to something more + wardecs.

You mean wardec invulnerability worth more than player interaction in player driven corps, comms, POSes, sov and stuff?
I can't agree with this but let's say you are right here.

And then we have another question: where is "unfairness"? You say NPC is OP, so leave your player driven corp and you have it too. Where is the problem?

Where is the problem?

The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly,

i still fail to see any "unfairness" here.

Being in NPC corp player you have access to something + wardec invulnerability.
Being in player corp player you have access to something more + wardecs.

You mean wardec invulnerability worth more than player interaction in player driven corps, comms, POSes, sov and stuff?
I can't agree with this but let's say you are right here.

And then we have another question: where is "unfairness"? You say NPC is OP, so leave your player driven corp and you have it too. Where is the problem?

The problem is that people have preconceived notions of how this game should be played and that it not be noob or casual friendly, even if they have an entire area of the game to play in and they choose to make it so boring that a good epic fight only happens when someone accidently hits the wrong button.

Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?

I am not a single entity so I cannot be attacked like one nor do I need the protection of a corp because of that. this is why removing npc corps is just futile. I'll simply change my playstyle and you still don't have highsec war targets. I don't even have to set foot in highsec if I don't want to. I don't need to undock I can jump clone all over the place and contract everything. I can log out in space. i can go AFK cloaky. i could go on but hopefully the futility of this wish is now clear. we will adapt and let the game shape our decisions and playstyle.

A very bad lie, one you people love to hide behind.

No one cares how you play, how long you play, what corp (NPC or otherwise) you choose to be a part of etc etc. We care about the game we play, we want the game to be internally consistent and (as a product) fair to each account holder.

We want the game they tell us is about cold harsh dark consequences to BE about that, not about silly un-EVE like protections against consequences.

The NPC corp mission runners and explorers have to "pay" for their protection from wardecs in the form of high taxes, EVERYONE in an npc corp should have to pay for that protection too.

Of course the truth and reasonableness of the above statement will fall on the deaf ears of those enjoying the unfair advantages of npc corp safety. But now is the time for change. OCCUPY NPC CORPS...

......ok wait, maybe that should be UN-OCCUPY NPC CORPS!!1

Using jumpclones and afk cloaking and logging in space are ways to avoid confrontation, but they do NOT guarantee your safety. They're methods of avoidance.

NPC corp membership means you can do whatever you want, because the ONLY way someone can engage you in combat in highsec is with a gank.

Huge difference there.

look, there's a basic problem with this that you aren't comprehending here as, like I said, people have preconceived notions about how this game should be played.

I am not an individual, there are three of me and I have jump clones. if you wardec 'me' I will either log out and play with my alt or clone jump down to null, buy some stuff in jita with an alt and contract it down to null so I can live there. if CCP nerfed NPC corps tax rate I will make a tax haven. I take glee in evasion as a metagamer.

if you want to spawntrap people play call of duty.

As a newbie, reading through this, it looks like I am supposed to quit my NPC corp and join a player controlled corp... But I am also told not to trust anyone because of, well, everything that is EVE...
The main thrust of this topic is about being war dec. Someone, somewhere, wants to be able to pvp people who have trained up for mining instead of pvp... And instead of giving incentives to address WHY they choose to stay in NPC corps, they just want to penalize people for doing so.

For the record, I am not mining, I am trying to train up to pvp/explore, but why should the game change to fit your needs if I can't change it to fit mine?

Why is it that every one must be deccable in your eyes? This seems to be the cornerstone of your argument, but you have yet to truly prove this is required by eve.

Also, what advantages, what rewards will you grant to those who would normally be in NPC corps to balance this new risk you wish to inflict.

Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?

It's almost funny when someone claims another person isn't comprehending, while they then go on the address tings that weren't even said.

What do jump clones and spawn camping and such have to do with anything I said? Who cares what you do to avoid wardecs? When I've been wardecced I just fire up the low sec alts and lvl 5 mission run or the null sec alts and explore.

None of that is the point. The point is exactly what i said it was (fairness, both NPC corps vs everyone else and even within npc corps between mission runners/explorers and miners/haulers/traders), and what you and your like refuse to address (because you know you can't, not and keep a straight face).

If people want to "live in an NPC corp and accept the consequences (high taxes, not being able to fly certain ships, not being able to own a POS etc) in exchange for war dec immunity, that would be fine with me. What's not fine CCP providing a corporate place to avoid negative consequences FOREVER in what should be a "harsh, cold" game. A place where people can still do things that affect everyone else, but can't be affected without CONCORD intervention.

But oh no, expecting everyone to play by the same rules-set in a game is too much to ask for high sec npc corp "evaders" isn't it?

Please explain your rationale to me, and why you think it's ok for (for example) NPC corp mission/incursion runners and explorers to pay high taxes and miners to get off scott free for being in the exact same npc corp?

Its not about being empty, its about being vulnarable

I hear ganking and podding new players is the best way to increase subscriptions.

Because of basic game product fairness. If I pahy a sub, can make isk and can be war decced, EVERYONE beyond the noob stage should likewsie be vulnerable to the same thing (OR their should be some massive advantage to bine in a player corp to compensate).

NPC Corps are an exampleof a lot that's wrong with High Sec and why high sec personalietes are....off. An NPC corp is litterally CCP saying to a player "YOU can come in and play the game and have an affect on everyone else, but no one can screw with YOU unless they suicide their ship or you aggress 1st".

It's BS.



This is worse than misunderstanding, this is a lie. There is Zero evidence that people will quit the game for anyreason except ridiculasly expensive monocles. That "carebear conventional wisdom" that people will quit the game if you change something has not only been proven false,it's been proven false RECENTLY. people swore they would quit with the NPC AI change and nerfed heavy missiles, yet I see no slackin in the carebearin.



no on cares if they are missing out. We care that they get to affect the game (every isk they make, every min they mine affects everyone else) while being immune from retaliation. it's un-EVE-like

Mining has nothing to do with my NPC corp. It's a transaction between the refining station and the trade hub station and their respective NPC corps.

What are these rules you're on about? it an exploit to stay in my noob school? No? Against the EULA? Not? Any benefit as a miner for me to leave? none whatsoever?

Gosh it seems like the game is encouraging rational economic decisions. Fancy that!

And I am nerfed thank you. I cannot have a POS and I have this 11% tax rate. I cannot wardec others. I cannot claim sovereignty. that's the price I pay. Perhaps it could be argued that industry needs nerfing or the tax rate needs changing so player corps are more attractive but making NPC alts wardeccable is just futile for the reasons I have explained at length. We will adapt.

Now please explain why if you think this is such an awesome advantage why you aren't quitting your player corp as we speak?

Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.

Exactly!

How many times in GD has it been posted that casual players and carebears should leave the game.

I just do not understand why so many people want high sec to be as empty as low/null?

The carebears won't magically become PVPers if the rules are changed. They will simply quit playing the game. How does that benefit those that want these changes?

And as soon as they are vulnerable, high sec will empty. Where will the carebears go? Low Sec? Null? Nope. Unsub.

There is AMPLE opportunity to mine in non-highsec locations. I've had many friends trying to get me to go to null with promises of safety. Yeah, but then what a hassle everything becomes. Having to watch local. Docking up for days on end when a cloaky neutral decides to camp. Having to pay to have your stuff moved to market, or the hassle of getting your own jump freighter.

Who wants it to be that much work? And for what? To grind on a spud rock for a day making 1/3rd what can be made in high sec?

No thanks.

I have a wife, job, kids, house that needs maintained, cars that need repairs, grass that needs mowed, in the real world. When I play a GAME, I want to log in for a couple hours, move a couple hundred million ISK worth of minerals from belt to station, sell it on the market, put a few skills into the training queue, then log back out.


Why do so many people want me to quit playing EVE?

New players are the easiest to suicide gank, with EHP in unsklilled T1 frigs amounting in the low hundreds; NPC corps don't protect new players. They best protect established players in economically crushing and outpacing new players. You support NPC corps, you support hurting new players.

Now please go back and show me where I said npc corps should be wardeccable.

Simply, the "price you pay" is insufficient. War Dec immunity is a HUGE benefit (and like most people who benfit from something , you seem unable to understand how HUGE that advantage is).

If people want that benefit, they should have to trade more than a slightly high tax rate and no ownership of POSs etc.

As for the mining stuff, that's the kind of self-serving rationalization that prevents understanding. The whole "transaction between refining station and npc corp" stuff is just hiding from the issue.

I doubt it will ever change because so many people are making use of "Evading consequences, NPC Corp style", but it's all still very wrong. Games should not support what amounts to contradictory rules-sets.

1 - You have the choice to join a NPC corp and enjoy these "benefits" as well. Because you make the conscious choice not to, the so-called 'vulnerabilities' that you flippantly try to use to bolster your argument are on you, not those players.

2 - You really need to double check yourself when making accusations of lies and 'misunderstandings'. The mass exodus after the release of Incarna had little to do with monocles and so much more to do with CCP taking something that wasn't broken, and then breaking it with features (CQ, no more ship hangar) that many did not want in the first place. Nobody cared about monocles short of people with nothing better to complain about.

3 - No one is immune from retaliation in Eve. This isn't WoW. If you want to retaliate on someone, then do it. Poeple have been enjoying that benefit since the game's inception, but in the last year, players who want the easy path cry to CCP to pop out the tittybottle and let them suckle themselves fat.

Best way to ruin a game

1 - Raise a big stink about something that isn't broken and cry incessantly about it in an entitled tone.
2 - Get the Devs to actually take the whine seriously.
3 - Devs patch the game for no reason, ignoring things that have been broken forever in favor of fixing something that wasn't broken just so people will shut up.

Don't believe me? Go look at Wow right now.

I believe you, I've seen CONCORD buffs, miner bumping complaints and NPC corps already.

The highlighted part is that which I absolutely despise. Not that you want to play a game casually, but that you seem to think that you should be able to do so unmolested by the people you are affecting.

You should be and ARE able to do exactly what you are doing, but the price of doing so (other than your subscription and time) means undocking and undocking means danger everywhere in EVE....but not som much in high sec and even less in high sec is you stay in an npc corp.

And that's the issue. NPC corps as they are going against what should be a core value of EVE online, that being that everyone has a basic level of vulnerability. People who chose player corps in a PLAYER DRIVEN game are forced to deal with extra headaches for no real gain. This is wrong.

EVE has quite a few backwards things like this, like clone upgrade costs that deter pvp in a pvp-centric game (a discussion being had in another thread), and EVE would be a better game without such bassackwardness.