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Toxic Raioin
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 00:06:00 -
[181] - Quote
Illia Vuilleurmier wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.
What would be wrong with that? Nobody has much problems with the fact that the Cynabal is a super Vagabond on steroids (except the fact that it is just *too* good at it) or that the Serpentis ships are basically Gallente ships on steroids with web-bonus-of-doom clearly stepping on the gallente AFs, HACs, and battleships toes, and to some extend Minmatar recons. Since so many other faction ships compete with AFs and HACs, why would you be uncomfortable with making the Blood Raiders ships competing with Amarr recons?
imo the Ashimmu should have slightly better resists, more dps, and less neuts/nos slots.It would basically be a tanky dps with a bonus to 1 neut/nos. A ship to be feared for sure but it would be a slow ship.
Want some more DPS? Fly the phantasm/ahacs. Want some more neut/nos power and range? Fly T2 recons.
I think if CCP did this the ship would see a increase in usage since it moves the ship out of the "pvp only" bracket and doesnt focus as much on cap warfare. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
541
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 21:19:00 -
[182] - Quote
Illia Vuilleurmier wrote:Well you're the one who imagined in the first place i wanted the ashimmu to be a Pilgrim with another shape.
It's particulalry funny coming from someone who flies a Vigilant in its latest video over let's say, a Deimos or a Thorax. Why do you do that? Because it pounds the two former down to the ground, performing simply better, at the very same task.
Why would you complain if the same nice thing happened to the Ashimmu, or the Phantasm, in regard of other ships?
Lol.
I flew a vigilant because its what I stole from the corp. You are analyzing this too much. |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 12:23:00 -
[183] - Quote
Post to confirm that rattlesnkae is fine as it is right now. That's why it sells for 500 mil while other pirate bs hull are between 1-1,4 bil. Seriuosly, rattle is bad for pvp and u can get better ships for pve. |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 12:26:00 -
[184] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:[quote=Merin Ryskin]
Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm. [/list]
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amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
31
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 15:04:00 -
[185] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.[/list]
For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same. |
Valea Silpha
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
90
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 15:50:00 -
[186] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.[/list] For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same.
Price is NOT a balancing factor FFS. Things become the most expensive sub-capital BECAUSE they are over-powered. Supply and demand.
Or to put it another way: if someone gave me a Mach for free does that mean it should have the performance of a noobship?
Ships need to be balanced in relation to each other regardless of price. Eve has proven time after time after time that it does not matter how expensive a tool is, if it gives someone an advantage to use them then they will do. Ever hear about the nano age ? Or have you heard of tracking titans ? CCP has said over and over again that simply being expensive does not allow for something to be 'just better'.
The mach is such a good ship that it isn't even really in the battleship class anymore. It's just its own thing. It has high dps, very good damage projection, best in class speed, extremely versatile slot layout and is just... awesome. For mission running ? Mach is one of the best ships in the game. Incursion running ? Same. Not many people have the balls, but its awesome at PvP too... Sniping ? 13k alpha. Brawling up close ? 900 gun dps with 70km falloff.
The only reason why we don't see huge blobs of Machs is because it costs too much. If you run the numbers, you'll find that if you fit it like an Alpha Maelstrom, it get s 20% more alpha, 20% more dps, 80% more speed (seriously... 835ms vs 1505ms), a radically longer effective range... a choice of either far faster lock time and max possible range (sig amps) or even furhter improved damage projection (TEs). The hull comes with better sensor strength, lower sig, more locked targets, a faster align. Oh and it has a utility high too.
So basically STFU. The mach is so much better than any of the competition that its not funny. It doesn't even need a sweet bonus to something useful to make it an attractive ship to pvp in. The Vindi is a good ship, but you are paying the money for a heavy web platform aspect, rather than the dps. The Bhaalgorn exists exclusively to neut things. If those two didn't have their ewar bonuses, people just wouldn't bother.
The mach either needs to be downgraded to 'good but not so much good its silly' or changed to being useful only in specific situations. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
850
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 16:10:00 -
[187] - Quote
Valea Silpha wrote: Price is NOT a balancing factor FFS. Things become the most expensive sub-capital BECAUSE they are over-powered. Supply and demand.?
Of course it is.
Valea Silpha wrote: Or to put it another way: if someone gave me a Mach for free does that mean it should have the performance of a noobship?
If the mach was free like noob ships then yes they should have the performance of noob ships. Do you not think it would break the game if people just started getting machs and dramiels for free instead of noobships?
Valea Silpha wrote: Ships need to be balanced in relation to each other regardless of price. Eve has proven time after time after time that it does not matter how expensive a tool is, if it gives someone an advantage to use them then they will do. Ever hear about the nano age ? Or have you heard of tracking titans ? CCP has said over and over again that simply being expensive does not allow for something to be 'just better'. .
Actually Eve has proven that cost is a huge factor. All of the navy battleships are better than the vanilla battleships. Yet people still fly the vanilla ones. Why? Cost. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
371
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 19:03:00 -
[188] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Of course it is. lol
You may not remember but CCP said the same thing about supers (and still, titans has been nerfed 4 times).
Cearain wrote:Actually Eve has proven that cost is a huge factor. All of the navy battleships are better than the vanilla battleships. Yet people still fly the vanilla ones. Why? Cost. Scorpions. And the tiers3 BS are very competitive. And it seems you have missed the memo. Powerblocks are definitively not flying these navy BS, not at all. No no no. Fleet Phoon : not yet, blame ProgodLegend. Fleet Tempest : it's a CFC fleet called "tech fleet". Navy scorp : Shadow Cartel tried them a bit but BS missiles are too bad. Navy Raven : ^see above. Dominix : PL and Init both have a faction domi fleet. Mega : no faction fleet mega for now, true. Imperial arma : one of the most flown ship by heavy pirate gangs. Imperial apoc : standard HBC doctrine as some smaller alliances.
Next time, think a bit before posting thanks. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
31
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 19:03:00 -
[189] - Quote
Valea Silpha wrote: Price is NOT a balancing factor FFS. Things become the most expensive sub-capital BECAUSE they are over-powered. Supply and demand.
Ships need to be balanced in relation to each other regardless of price. Eve has proven time after time after time that it does not matter how expensive a tool is, if it gives someone an advantage to use them then they will do. Ever hear about the nano age ? Or have you heard of tracking titans ? CCP has said over and over again that simply being expensive does not allow for something to be 'just better'.
I disagree, in this case price is the balancing factor.
Valea Silpha wrote: The only reason why we don't see huge blobs of Machs is because it costs too much.
Thank you for making my point for me.
Valea Silpha wrote: If you run the numbers, you'll find that if you fit it like an Alpha Maelstrom, it get s 20% more alpha, 20% more dps, 80% more speed (seriously... 835ms vs 1505ms), a radically longer effective range... a choice of either far faster lock time and max possible range (sig amps) or even furhter improved damage projection (TEs). The hull comes with better sensor strength, lower sig, more locked targets, a faster align. Oh and it has a utility high too.
Yes, 20% more alpha, 20% more DPS, 80% more speed but at a 650% price premium.
Valea Silpha wrote: The only reason why we don't see huge blobs of Machs is because it costs too much.
Which is why it is not a ship which is in need of rebalancing. The ship is being used and performing as it should |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 23:36:00 -
[190] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:if you have the nuts to PvP in a 2B+ ship then you deserve the benefits. So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ?
I'm glad CCP don't think like you.
IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much. |
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amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
31
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 00:03:00 -
[191] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:amurder Hakomairos wrote:if you have the nuts to PvP in a 2B+ ship then you deserve the benefits. So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ? I'm glad CCP don't think like you. IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much.
Nice straw man argument, when did I ever say anything about expensive ships being invincible? The Mach is far from it, killboards are full of Mach ganks. If a Titan pilot wanted to give up the majority of their tank to be able to blap battleships that sounds like a trade off to me.
How is a Mach as fast as a cruiser? A cruiser with a prop mod is twice as fast as the Mach with the same type of prop mod. |
Cearain
Black Dragon Fighting Society the devil's tattoo
851
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 00:29:00 -
[192] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Cearain wrote:Of course it is. lolYou may not remember but CCP said the same thing about supers (and still, titans has been nerfed 4 times). Cearain wrote:Actually Eve has proven that cost is a huge factor. All of the navy battleships are better than the vanilla battleships. Yet people still fly the vanilla ones. Why? Cost. Scorpions. And the tiers3 BS are very competitive. And it seems you have missed the memo. Powerblocks are definitively not flying these navy BS, not at all. No no no. Fleet Phoon : not yet, blame ProgodLegend. Fleet Tempest : it's a CFC fleet called "tech fleet". Navy scorp : Shadow Cartel tried them a bit but BS missiles are too bad. Navy Raven : ^see above. Dominix : PL and Init both have a faction domi fleet. Mega : no faction fleet mega for now, true. Imperial arma : one of the most flown ship by heavy pirate gangs. Imperial apoc : standard HBC doctrine as some smaller alliances. Next time, think a bit before posting thanks.
I didn't say no one is flying the faction battleships. I am saying people are also flying the plain vanilla battleships. If price weren't an issue then we would see allot more dramiels, daredevils, machariels, Baahlgorns, and vindicators. Yet none of them are in the top 20 ships. The reason is cost.
13 of the 20 top ships on evekill are vanilla tech 1 ships. These hulls are not as good as tech 2 or faction hulls so the only reason to prefer them is cost.
16 of the top 20 ships cost less than a vanilla battleship hull.
If fitting out supers cost the same as fitting out tristans we would see a huge increase in their numbers as well. Cost is a significant balancing factor. Its hard to believe people would deny this.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
542
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 09:55:00 -
[193] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:amurder Hakomairos wrote:if you have the nuts to PvP in a 2B+ ship then you deserve the benefits. So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ? I'm glad CCP don't think like you. IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much.
I think the mach is perfect in terms of balance. Almost all of the pirate BS are very well balanced and perform well in their respective niche. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 11:58:00 -
[194] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:Nice straw man argument, when did I ever say anything about expensive ships being invincible? The Mach is far from it, killboards are full of Mach ganks. If a Titan pilot wanted to give up the majority of their tank to be able to blap battleships that sounds like a trade off to me.
How is a Mach as fast as a cruiser? A cruiser with a prop mod is twice as fast as the Mach with the same type of prop mod. 100MN MWD Machariel speed (no speed mod) : 1505 m/s 10MN MWD Maller speed (no plate, no rig) : 1584 m/s 10MN MWD Moa speed (no plate, no rig) : 1530 m/s How ? By being faster and lighter maybe ? And hopefully cruiser speed have been buffed recently, other wise, mach would be faster than most cruisers... (Yes, the mach was faster than most cruiser before the crusier tiericide). And yet, only the stabber may go twice as fast as a machariel.
Should justify how the mach have faction BS tank and gank too ? And I didn't even talk about damage projection...
And the supply of the machariel is not limited by price but by supply of BPC. IMO, you could multiply this supply by 100 and still sell them all. Supply of mach is not less than other pirate BS ; IMO, there is even a lot more of mach BPC drops because of this demand (more people farming them).
Machariel have way too much, and the cynabal have the same "problem".
You said that price justify benefits, and that's plain wrong.
That's not even me saying this, that is the law of market : benefits justify price, because benefit lead demand.
The machariel have the same place among BS than the pre tiericide Drake had among BC : an almighty warmachine able to do everything, and most of them better than any other ship. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:42:00 -
[195] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: 100MN MWD Machariel speed (no speed mod) : 1505 m/s 10MN MWD Maller speed (no plate, no rig) : 1584 m/s 10MN MWD Moa speed (no plate, no rig) : 1530 m/s How ? By being faster and lighter maybe ? And hopefully cruiser speed have been buffed recently, other wise, mach would be faster than most cruisers... (Yes, the mach was faster than most cruiser before the crusier tiericide). And yet, only the stabber may go twice as fast as a machariel.
Your numbers are dated. I just ran a bunch of cruisers through EFT with MWD fit and I cant find one more than a few m/s slower than a Mach and most are faster with double the cap life. Besides, comparing a 10M isk T1 cruiser to a 1.3B isk pirate BS is a bit absurd. A regular T1 BS under MWD approaches 1k m/s speed, why would I not expect that a specialized pirate BS to be 40-50% faster than a vanilla T1 BS using the same prop mod? The specialized faction and pirate cruisers are.
Bouh Revetoile wrote: Should justify how the mach have faction BS tank and gank too ? And I didn't even talk about damage projection...
Have you ever even flown or fit a Mach? Do you even realize that a full T2 max gank fit using 800mm AC is impossible to fit with all skills to 5 and a 5% CPU implant? So to get a full T2 fit you lose a low slot for a cpu mod and the T2 fit Mach with all skills to 5 gets 1135 gun DPS with a 50k EHP tank and 163 HP/s boost (not to mention only 1ish minute cap life with MWD and booster running). A T2 gank fit all skills to 5 Mael gets 1036 gun dps with the same 50k EHP tank and 224 HP/s boost. So for over 600% more cost you are getting only 10% more dps, 40% more speed, and 40% more falloff, but losing 40% of your shield boost. Sounds to me like cost is operating as a perfect balancer here. Want speed and range? Pony up the extra 1.1B for a Mach.
Do you realize that the "overpowered" Mach fits with too much gank and tank you talk about are built using billions of isk in faction and deadspace mods? I'm sorry but if you are flying a 1.3B isk ship with another 3-4B+ isk of bling on it then yes it should perform significantly better than all T1 BS.
Bouh Revetoile wrote: And the supply of the machariel is not limited by price but by supply of BPC. IMO, you could multiply this supply by 100 and still sell them all. Supply of mach is not less than other pirate BS ; IMO, there is even a lot more of mach BPC drops because of this demand (more people farming them).
I'm sorry but you are just wrong here. A quick check of the market shows over 250 Machs available throughout EVE with another dozen or so available on contracts plus 70 or so BPCs. If the supply was limited by BPC availability I would expect to see none available, especially in market hubs as the immense demand would cause them to be purchased as fast as they are put up for sale. As the ship (and its BPC) is readily available for purchase it is cost, not supply, which limits its use.
Bouh Revetoile wrote: The machariel have the same place among BS than the pre tiericide Drake had among BC : an almighty warmachine able to do everything, and most of them better than any other ship.
I don't see how you can possibly justify this statement. The Mach is a specialized ship that is good at specific things. Its not an unbeatable war machine, it isn't "easy mode" like the drake was. It doesn't have significantly more tank or gank than other ships of its class (which are Pirate BS btw, not T1 ships). Without deadspace gear its tank is thin and it has to be actively piloted to account for that. And obviously at its price and role it is going to be better than most other ships. What you need to be doing is making an apples to apples comparison to ships of its class - the other pirate BS.
The biggest issue with the Drake was that its slight advantages resulted in PvP Drake blobs, something that is prevented (and thus balanced) by the cost of the Mach.
Diesel47 wrote: I think the mach is perfect in terms of balance. Almost all of the pirate BS are very well balanced and perform well in their respective niche.
This. Honestly, I think there is a 0% chance that CCP can "balance" the pirate BS without f*ing them up. I get what CCP is doing with the T1 ship rebalances and that is good - each race should have viable ships in all classes and there shouldn't be one or two T1 ships in a class that stand out as significantly better than the rest. Pirate ships are a completely different story though. Their massive price tag means they shouldn't fly like plain vanilla T1 ships, and they shouldn't all be "balanced" like plain vanilla T1 ships. Nerfing these ships will remove the last few ships in the game that are actually fun to fly. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
567
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 13:48:00 -
[196] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:amurder Hakomairos wrote:if you have the nuts to PvP in a 2B+ ship then you deserve the benefits. So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ? I'm glad CCP don't think like you. IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much. I think the mach is perfect in terms of balance. Almost all of the pirate BS are very well balanced and perform well in their respective niche.
I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff. |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 14:15:00 -
[197] - Quote
amurder Hakomairos wrote:For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same. I'm all for the Mach being a good ship, but it practically does everything better than other ships in the game. It's just too damn fast, there is no way one of the physically biggest BS in the game should be able to match the pace of most cruisers, let alone battlecruisers.
Compare it to a Nightmare and the navy ships (ignoring Bhaalgorn/Vindi here due to being quite specialised) - the other ships are massively slower, but similar in most other respects. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
34
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 14:36:00 -
[198] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:amurder Hakomairos wrote:For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same. I'm all for the Mach being a good ship, but it practically does everything better than other ships in the game. It's just too damn fast, there is no way one of the physically biggest BS in the game should be able to match the pace of most cruisers, let alone battlecruisers. Compare it to a Nightmare and the navy ships (ignoring Bhaalgorn/Vindi here due to being quite specialised) - the other ships are massively slower, but similar in most other respects.
The Nightmare is significantly slower than the Mach, but in my opinion this is more an indication that the nightmare needs a speed buff vs. a speed nerf for the Mach. But I would agree that a slight speed nerf is about all they can do without ruining the ship. |
Goldiiee
Superior Ratio High Sec Dropouts
295
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 16:49:00 -
[199] - Quote
I know there are two sides to every argument. As near as I can tell there are the Nerf Mach groups that vary from its OP or that it is too flexible. And the GÇÿLeave it aloneGÇÖ group that believe it is fine and the rest of the Pirate Faction ships need buffed more than the mach needs Nerfed.
As all ships can be OP with enough ISK it would seem that a comparison done through t2 fittings alone escapes most peopleGÇÖs thought process. A similarly fitted mach for my purpose would require a 6% CPU implant and then it would be 75% slower 600dps weaker tank and 400dps less damage. So if I spare my wallet the 4 billion ISK for fittings I can have a maelstrom, ItGÇÖs not OP itGÇÖs just really damn expensive to make it work. If I drop the Faction/T2 ammo to T1 ammo the difference is only a loss of 200dps between the two fits but still 400dps less than the expensive stuff. Still the tank is a dismal 450 not really the GÇÿKing of shipsGÇÖ for a 300 day training investment.
So as a comparison I fitted up a vindicator with T2 vs. Deadspace. And until CCP invents a 16% CPU implant it will never be a T2 fitted ship, but it will probably be left alone in the tieracide.
Why stop there; Nightmare, is a breeze to fit everything on and room to spare, the virtual Swiss Knife of the Pirate faction BSGÇÖs The Blaagorn; Can be setup without gimping the pilot or the fit, especially when the specified role of GÇÿNueting monsterGÇÖ is the primary consideration.
So why all the hate for Machariels, since the fitting requirements also hamstring the pilot into investing so much ISK that undocking in high sec is a risk and Low sec is a veritable CTA magnet. Not because it is so badass that everyone is needed to take it down, but because the killmail is bound to be more enviable than a Tournament prize.
Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced (But I still try..) |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:04:00 -
[200] - Quote
I can accept that the Mach is a bit low on cpu if you want to Active shield tank it. I think what bugs me most about the Mach, is that it doesn't have any of the downsides you usually get from flying a Battleship. It's faster than any Battlecruiser, much higher scan res than other Battleships, it aligns like a Battlecruiser - the agility it can have before even putting any nano mods on it is just insane. Huge drone bay too. It can outbrawl anything that can really catch it and anything that can really hurt it you can run from easily unless you fly like a tard.
If CCP take the choice of bringing the other BS up towards the level the Mach is I can't wait |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3223
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:05:00 -
[201] - Quote
I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
257
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:19:00 -
[202] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.
-Liang
Wow, that's harsh. But fair. The mach just has an absurdly perfect set of bonuses. I direct you to my earlier post here
Really puts perspective on that stupidly-powerful hull. |
Mr Hyde113
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 18:22:00 -
[203] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.
-Liang
^This^
The reason the Mach is problematic is speed (duh). Its other characteristics alone, aren't a problem, but when combined with cruiser-like speed, they scale to a ridiculous level. As an attribute, speed is IMO one of the highest priority factors that a ship has to be balanced around. The angel ships do not seem to sacrifice much in other areas to justify their ridiculous speed, which creates problems for ships like the vagabond when compared to the cynabal. |
Goldiiee
Superior Ratio High Sec Dropouts
295
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 22:36:00 -
[204] - Quote
All ships in EVE are balanced by give and take, weakness vs. strength, Yin and Yang, good and bad, yada yada yada.. The fail portion of a mach is its tank, without giving up a firstborn for the cost of fittings it would die in a blaze of fire as soon as it got tackled, so to compensate it was made fast as a scalded cat to make it hard to catch.
Unfortunately the weapon system for a Mach works best when sitting still and any movement causes a noticeable drop in tracking and reduces DPS astonishingly bad when using a MWD and only severely bad when using an AB. As a general rule fighting in 50% falloff will lose 20% of your DPS, add acceleration to that and suddenly you find youGÇÖre only doing 20% of your actual DPS at 50% falloff at moderate speeds. Change tactics and close on the target will improve hits but reduce transversal making it easy for an opponent to hit, while the mach is still trying to bleed off angular to hit them. The point being that the reason a mach has 70km of falloff is because it has 20% of its DPS flying into nothing, or glancing off, when it uses any of the speed bonus whatsoever, the same speed everyone wants gimped off it.
The slot layout for a shield mach is silly for PVP with two slots for point and web, one for propulsion mod leaves two for tank inadequate for all but the most expensive modules, switch to an armour tank and you have thrown away the agility and dps for buffer and tracking but now its a sitting duck waiting to die. Switching to arties and sniper fit is a great idea but the same effect can be accomplished with a Nado for less than the cost of a full cargo hold of ammo.
The training required to max a Mach is daunting for new players with 255 days for core skills, 161 days for gunnery, 99 days for drones, and another 90 days for racial ship skills alone, add any e-war you want and you will spend 2 years perfecting this ship. A cruiser will take you less than half the time to train at most, but after two years of perfecting this ship a player will be well placed to move into Capitals.
The Mach should be left alone because it covers all the training requirements for a superb pilot, it requires learning the tactics for both flying and conflict engagement, it requires learning to fly a non-cap stable fit, using cap like ammo, and ammo like itGÇÖs going out of style, it provides players with a goal that continues to keep accounts active, and players involved. Nerfing it would remove a goalpost for many players with no real up side other than to appease the limited number of haters represented here.
I am confident that CCP is aware of the limitations of a Mach and hopefully they have plans to buff the other pirate faction ships more than Nerf the Mach. Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced (But I still try..) |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
544
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Posted - 2013.03.19 23:21:00 -
[205] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:
I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff.
And the vindicator is arguably the best brawler in the game. So what?
If you are worried about something being unbalanced, whine about tier 3 BC, they are too fast and project too much damage too far.
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
568
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:11:00 -
[206] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Gypsio III wrote:
I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff.
And the vindicator is arguably the best brawler in the game. So what? If you are worried about something being unbalanced, whine about tier 3 BC, they are too fast and project too much damage too far.
I'm not talking about the Vindicator, I'm talking about the Machariel, silly.
I think you're right about t3 BCs though. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
257
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:15:00 -
[207] - Quote
Well yeah, its easy to complain about T3 BCs after a CCP dev has already admitted them being overpowered. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
258
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 13:28:00 -
[208] - Quote
Complain about tier3 BC, but the mach is basicaly a tier3 BC with BS tank + a heavy neutralizer...
If tier3 BC may be OP, mach is far more OP than them.
[Machariel, quick&dirty]
7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet EMP L) Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
100MN Microwarpdrive II 2x Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II
3x Gyrostabilizer II 2x Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I 2x Large Core Defense Field Extender I
100kehp ; 764 dps@8+88 km w/ barrage ; 959dps@4+59 km w/ RF EMP ; 1646 m/s cold ; 9,58s align time w/ MWD ; neutra to melt down frigates and cruisers (like if that was required).
And we are talking here about a shield tanked ship with 7 low slots, go figure.
As for the supply of BPC being what limit machariel proliferation, it is true. Those who don't agree should learn about economy. Machariel cost 162M isk in minerals to build, and I bet other pirate BS cost about the same. |
RavenPaine
raven alliance
376
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 14:51:00 -
[209] - Quote
Has anybody seen the Phantasm thread? I cannot seem to find it. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
266
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 16:21:00 -
[210] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Has anybody seen the Phantasm thread? I cannot seem to find it.
You are in the wrong place sir, this is the Machariel thread. |
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