They used to have a wicked shield tank many years ago, but alas like everthing else that was good at something they nerfed it and now it is just a ship to own and not use.

Part of the fix needs to include the ability to mount corpses on the spikes.

Part of the fix needs to include the ability to mount corpses on the spikes.

One of the cool things about the Phantasm is that it has its crewed by one of the lesser known races, called "capacitor vampires". You'll notice their handiwork when you undock and activate any module and your capacitor instantly empties. I can't wait until they extend WIS to include the bridge of your ship! I really want to see what they have conceptualized these beings to look like!

-Liang

Maybe cap inject it? Maybe with a small cap booster will be able to fit some neuts as well.

Except it's a kiting ship, so you're perma-running the MWD, using lasers with no cap bonus, and possibly trying to use neuts in your spare high slots. You can make it work with a cap booster, but you're throwing 800s in as fast as you can load them and that gives you really limited endurance before your whole cargo of them is gone and you have to go home to restock.

Now, this was worth it back in the good old days before the faction ship boost. ACs and blasters hadn't been fixed yet, pulses with scorch dominated, and none of the other faction cruisers were worth undocking. But now the game has moved on and left the Phantasm behind. There's no reason to put up with the Phantasm's huge cap problems when there are better ships to fly.

Except it's a kiting ship, so you're perma-running the MWD, using lasers with no cap bonus, and possibly trying to use neuts in your spare high slots. You can make it work with a cap booster, but you're throwing 800s in as fast as you can load them and that gives you really limited endurance before your whole cargo of them is gone and you have to go home to restock.

Now, this was worth it back in the good old days before the faction ship boost. ACs and blasters hadn't been fixed yet, pulses with scorch dominated, and none of the other faction cruisers were worth undocking. But now the game has moved on and left the Phantasm behind. There's no reason to put up with the Phantasm's huge cap problems when there are better ships to fly.

I have no experience with the Phantasm, but it looks like a ship that could be XL ASB'd to great effect. Anyone tried this?

They used to have a wicked shield tank many years ago, but alas like everthing else that was good at something they nerfed it and now it is just a ship to own and not use.

Don't pick on the best looking ship in eve. Cap issues , train some skills up.
Shield tanking is a sin!
Armor tank it, fly in small gang. you be primary everytime. by the time you lock your mates should have target down.
You can toast some frigs pretty easy too.

The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.

Hint: the ship isn't amarrian*.

Out of boredom I worked up a crazy fit. With the proper implants and a command ship booster. Not really a great use of 2 billion ISK but funny to think about it.

[Phantasm, ghost]
3x Heavy Pulse Laser II (Conflagration M)
2x Corpii A-Type Small Nosferatu

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
Pith C-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Gistum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
10MN Analog Booster Rockets
'Palisade' Cap Recharger I

Damage Control II
2x Dark Blood Heat Sink

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
2x Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
3x 'Augmented' Hobgoblin

So with unlimted Funds anyship can be great.

[Statistics - Goldiiee]

Effective HP: 47,089 (Eve: 39,965)
Tank Ability: 5,383.51 DPS
Damage Profile - (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 92.78%, Ex: 86.85%, Ki: 84.22%, Th: 84.20%
Armor Resists - EM: 57.50%, Ex: 32.00%, Ki: 36.25%, Th: 44.75%
Capacitor (Stable at 53.67%)
Volley Damage: 1,905.25
DPS: 578.35

Yes, its more Caldari than Amarr now

Understatement of the year there. A missile Phantasm is a Caldari ship. It uses Caldari weapons, Caldari tank, Caldari slot layout, etc. There is nothing at all Amarr about it. And since there are already plenty of good shield tanking missile ships it's a redundant Caldari ship.

Also, the Vindicator and Bhaalgorn are Minmatar because of their web bonuses and (in the case of the Vindicator) speed. The Machariel isn't Gallente, but CCP's utter stupidity with the Angel ships doesn't excuse making the Sansha ones just as bad.

The one thing the Phantasm does have going for it is phenomenal fittings as the posted fit shows, you can practically just throw on whatever you think you want and just keep at it until the slots are full then notice you have empty rigs and you don't even need one for fitting. The cap issue is very strenuous, even injected it feels as if it's addicted to cap boosters and committed to the idea of overdosing at that.

In reality though both the Phantasm and the Ashimmu fall into the same category but for different reasons. Both look amazing and I like seeing them in space just so I can spin them around, but neither one really works as well as something else you could fly instead for a similar price tag.

Zealot > Phantasm
Curse > Ashimuu

The only thing I might be able to see is a Phantasm that can engage a small frigate gang alone and kill them all, abundance of mids and CPU can get you a web(s) easily and your tracking bonus can take care of the rest, not sure where I'm really going with this and not ultimately sure what it would look like, but possible I suppose. (This would make a great video to watch if someone can pull it off by the way, I offer no prize for this other than my undying respect and possibly, if you ask nicely, an in game mail in which I declare you my personal hero for life and $10,000 cash, by which I mean ISK).

You could keep the weak cap and give it a range bonus to nos, that way your rapidly draining capacitor would ensure the function of your nos.
I'd like to see the phantasm actually be anything other than a pile of meh. I'm torn whether or not the succubus should get buffed; it has to be the ugliest ship in space.

The Omen has a web and the Phantasm has a Web + Cap Booster. Considering the **** capacitor on both the Omen and Phantasm, I think the Phantasm wins. Now, if you wanted to make the argument for a MWD/Disruptor/Small Cap Booster I'd be ok, but then you'd lack a web.

/shrug

-Liang

The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.

fun, this is pretty much the same thing that happened to rifter

it could be alot better...

The problems is 3 lows and fitting.

double the damage bonus, drop one gun (2: 6 effective), minus a high for an extra mid - and keep fitting the same: then maybe it would keep its unique factor while being competitive in damage, cap use and fitting flexibility.

The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.

Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.

Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

• Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.


• Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


• Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


• Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.


• Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.

If projection was supposed to be a weakness of the Angel lineup why did you give them a falloff bonus? That's like saying projection's supposed to be a weakness of the zealot.

And a huge drone bay.

Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

• Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.


• Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


• Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


• Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.


• Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.

With their laser bonus, it allows them to not only neut substantial amounts, but also put out solid DPS, fit a decent tank and web substantially. You pretty much mixed the Succubus and Daredevil when you created the Cruor. I think what makes them better than the Amarr Recons is that fact: they have damage, tank, and flexibility with regards to how they fly.

Oh no don't you dare touch the Cyna and the Mach.

The Mach is the only ship battlecruiser or bigger a person can go soloing inside hostile territory and have a fighting chance to get out of blobs. DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH IT.

The Cynabal is still a 260M cruiser. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD. KEEP YOUR DIRTY HANDS OFF IT. IT HAS CRAP DPS ALREADY WHEN KITING. If the other ships suck in comparison it's their problem.

Cynabal and Machariel...

Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

And the Mach nerf QQ begins... seriously tho they both need nerfs. The fact that its flown to the exclusion of 90% of other pirate battleships means that its way OP.

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

[quote=CCP Ytterbium]

Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.

Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.

Do that and no one will ever fly it again :)

So you want to turn it into a maelstrom?

As a guy that loves phantams, and was a bit sad to see it got a bit of a nerf when cynabal got a boost (if I remember correctly it lost some hp), in my opinion it need more mobility. The shield tank lets it be faster than the armor variants, and it could be a kiter. However now the cynabal, vaga and many others outshine it completely while having room for lots of utility. A bit of ehp boost would also be nice, but if given enough mobility, might not be needed. A little bit of grid would not hurt either, just so you can squeeze in a cap booster or a neut in addition to the largest lasers that gives you the magic 20km+ range.

Al inn all: better mobiliy, in form of more base speed and maybe agility. A tad more grid.

That's laughable, vindicators and bhaalgorns see a ton of use in lowsec / wh fleet combat, much moreso than machs.

Sansha SHOULD NOT BE kiting ships. Think of their roles, angels are notorious for their speed and mobility. Sansha are shield tanked combat ships. What SHOULD happen is a buff to sansha tank strengths and buff their cap. Give em more EHP, and maybe some more fitting. DO NOT Give sansha vaga/cyna-esque role, that would be ********, it would be HIGHLY redundant with the only difference being the color of your ammo.

The "don't matter as much as they should" part is quite an understatement.

Both ships work with Artilleries AND Autocannons, and are able to effortlessly fit a full rack of the BIGGEST ones in each category.

Both have a 50% built-in falloff bonus with Gallente Cruiser/Battleship V.

It's actually the other way around: their damage projection is nothing short of AMAZING. Something to consider while we reveal in their unsurpassed speed, agility and scan resolution, best of their classes easily.

It's due time Cynabal and Machariel meet the Nerfhammer.

Could the Blood Raider ships be rebuilt to focus on Nos use rather than Neut use? Possibly a role bonus that makes the nos function like neuts (ie drain to 0 cap and 5x transfer amount).

2. Phantasm - first of all speed. Second of all speed. And again speed. It's as fast as damn Machariel in base speed value ... and before Machariel can fit more lows for nanos etc . But not going to compare it to battleship atm. Ship once again with
2 utility highs ? You really expect it to use cap for neuts when it struggles to shoot it guns and run it's tank ? I hope not. Tho on cruiser level i suggest you leave one utility high. Move extra one to either mid or low. For either more tank/cap boosters or low for more gank. 15 bandwitch / 15 bay is lol atm . With cruiser wide buff to drone bays/bandwitch (most notably omen 40/40) i suggest phantasm gets at least 25/50 and would strongly suggest even 50/50.

I'm just extracting the Phantasm bits - the thread is about the Phantasm.

I love the look of the ship - flew one quite a bit, trying to make it viable for at least PvE before trying it in PvP.

It sucks.

The above quoted comments pretty much sum it up. It needs cap BADLY, even with empty utility highs, it's very slow for a shield tanker, and the drone bay is laughable.

Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

• Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.


• Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


• Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


• Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.


• Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.

How is nightmare "Very Good" and Bhaalgorn just "Nice"

Besides PVE, the Bhaal is such an important and infinitely useful ship.

Whens the last time you've seen a nightmare PvP even?

The amarr bship line is fantastic, thats why you dont see nightmares being used as often as say a macharial.

the mimnitar bship line is aweful imo, thats why you see more players going an alternate route if they have the isk.

Chill out.

"Strongest" projectile battleship in the game being able to fit the largest guns isn't a problem.

If you think cynabals are "OP" then you are doing it wrong.


edit: does CCP even play their own game?

So you want to turn it into a maelstrom?

Nightmare - its fine, best ship in game if you are man enough to brawl.

On thing that must be remembered is that we're talking about PIRATE faction ships, the bpcs for which come almost exclusively from exploration.

The Initiative has been farming like bots (oops) last year to get these cynabal BPCs.

You're wrong.

Do you know the definition of the word "almost"? Maybe not, so let me rephrase. The bpcs come from exploration and null sec missions.

They also come from loyalty point store:
http://www.ellatha.com/eve/LPSearch/phantasm/

Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.

• Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.


• Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


• Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.


• Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.


• Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.

Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

Skip the nerfing of any of these ships. The Angel ships are fine as they are... A VERY expensive and VERY skill intensive line up of ships. Buff the ships that need it and bring them all into line with each other. If that means raising the bar on all the pirate faction ships to the level of the Angel ships... SO BE IT!!!

That is the point of these pirate ships. To out perform all other T1 ships and equal or barely beat out T2 ships. Thats why we pay the ISK and skill time to fly them. They hurt to lose.

Angel ships are expensive exactly because they perform very well and in style that is favoured these days by many. It's not like supplying Cynabals is much harder than Phantasms, but the former are sold like hot pies unlike latter.

I'm not sure if nerfing their defining trait is a good idea though.

Angel ships are expensive exactly because they perform very well and in style that is favoured these days by many. It's not like supplying Cynabals is much harder than Phantasms, but the former are sold like hot pies unlike latter.

I'm not sure if nerfing their defining trait is a good idea though.

Ed: I just took a look at the Phantasm. Looks like ~1k ISK/LP to cash out on Phantasms. Looks like 1 Phantasm sells on average per day in a major market hub. I'm calling bullshit.

I have flown the succubus, and the phantasm a fair bit due mainly too my love for shield tanking and lasers.

The Succubus in my opinion has good cap, it seems to be just as good as every other frig I have flown however it seems to be slow, and lacking in dps.

The Phantasm on the other hand has horrible cap, I cant put two adaptive invun fields on it without it going below cap stable. It also seems to be lacking in dps, and tank.

I think a decent fix for Sansha ships would be to remove the Caldari bonus and combine it with the role bonus for a total of 125%(150%) increased damage and add a shield resist bonus. Another suggestion could be to add another turret slot on these ships and again remove the caldari bonus and add the resist bonus, but keep the role bonus at %100. A final change i can think of is just buff the 5% dps bonus to 10%.

Every other pirate faction seems to have a defined role such as 90% webs. To me the role of Sansha ships is dps and currently you can get cheaper ships that fill the role of the phantasm/succubus so in order to make them worth flying they need to do this role better.

Your suggestions have nothing about making the ships cap better. Infact... Adding another turret will make it even more cap unstable.

It's true, but let's be honest, I would fly the **** out of the phantasm if it had another turret, and so would you

Well, with removing the caldari cruiser damage bonus and giving it another turret it would only do about 70 more dps... I don't think that is enough to make the ship worth using personally.

Keep in mind the think would only work with force fed cap boosters because its so unstable with 4 guns.

He said put that bonus in with the hull bonus. It would be closer to 150 extra DPS, which would definitely be nice.

I dunno... that'd make it do almost as much DPS as a Navy Omen.

Yeah it'd be pretty cool then. It'd almost do as much DPS as a Navy Omen.

-Liang

Maybe my math is a bit off, but doesn't the nomen have 8 effective turrets vs the 10 that the phantasm would have with an extra turret? You could squeeze a bit more dps from an extra damage mod, but surely not enough to give the nomen better damage?

The NOmen gets more lows (3 HS) and a bigger drone bay. A Phantasm with 4 HPL/2 HS deals less damage than a NOmen. It also has less capacitor and requires cap for its hardeners.

-Liang

Hadn't considered the drone bay, but then I'm not fond of combat drones anyway, ECM drones = <3 for anything that doesn't get a bonus to drone damage imo.

EDIT: and I just checked, even with drones the phantasm would slightly OD a nomen.

Yeah looks like I had my implants in the NOmen and not the Phantasm. 536 vs 519 DPS @ 23km (Scorch), pretty sure that's not good enough DPS for it to be the "Sansha Shtick". I stand by my original suggestions earlier in the thread.

-Liang

You said it yourself, 2009!
2009.
Think on that a moment.
How does it take 4 years (or longer) for a ship or mod to get a small adjustment? No matter how you answer this question, the answer is wrong. The entire thought process behind justifying it is wrong.

If you're just looking for an excuse, we have periodic Phantasm Fleets in Amamake. ;-)

-Liang

That's laughable, vindicators and bhaalgorns see a ton of use in lowsec / wh fleet combat, much moreso than machs.

And the Mach nerf QQ begins... seriously tho they both need nerfs. The fact that its flown to the exclusion of 90% of other pirate battleships means that its way OP.

That logic doesn't hold up, 99% of ships in EVE that use a damage control use the T2 varient witch is only 1% better than the meta 4. Does that mean Damage controll is OP, or just the best choice of all the options.

Nice statistics you pulled out of your ass.

I fit all my frigs with a 30 CPU DC2 because all my ships have inifnite CPU.

Yours do not?

Sorry didn't mean to offend, or start a conversation about low CPU and frig fitting. My point was that the prolific use of Machariels in the game could be attributed to as little as 1% more _____ (fill in the blank). So the Concept of nerfing it into the ground will not solve the imbalance it will just shift the imbalance to the next 1% winner.

Strawmanning
Moving goalposts
Please don't nerf my Machariel

Meh. Whatever you say. The dev already stated the Machariel was intended to have weaknesses. We all kind of laughed when that weakness ended up being negated by the hull bonus and by... you know, the internal mechanics of the projectile weapon system itself. That was pages ago.

I get your angry, it comes through in your writing, I like my mach, I also like my vindicator, never cared much for the Blaaaahorn, and the Nightmare has more potential than any other ship I fly. My concern is that when they swing the Nerf hammer I donGÇÖt want the choices to be reduced to what race of ship looks best vs. what ship is best. Leaving a large enough margin to be a clear winner, is not a bad thing, especially with the current neutering of minmitar ships consider worst Dread, worst Titan, worst Supercarrier, worst Battleship, worst Frig? Is there any Minmitar ship going to be left that will make picking this race as a training goal a good choice?

If the goal is to give ships differing weaknesses and strengths then your irrational fear of all ships being recolored copies of each other would stay an irrational fear.

We just discussed how the Mach weakness isn't really a weakness.

.. The succubus really sucks too.

WTF?! This is one of the very few threads with actual importance and a dev reply. It is about the Phantasm FFS!! A ship that desperately needs attention for years! Suggestion: Make your own Mach-spin-off thread with link to this one.

I dont see any frigates that can fit 6 lasers or cruisers that can fit 8 or BSs that can fit 10

Daredevil, nightmare, kronos, paladin, vargur, machariel, maybe the omen navy issue.
EDIT : the cynabal too. And the vigilant. Etc.

Marauders and NM have 8 effective turrets, the rest ended up here correctly IIRC. Dunno about NOmen though

EDIT: Did I read Ytterbium say that the Dramiel is in a good place? Dramiels are terrible now, the only people that fly them are dudes that've activated their account for the first time in two years and aren't up to speed. They're worse than interceptors for tackle, and lose 1v1s to every other faction frig (except the firetail) , assault frig, and even a few T1 frigs. The Dramiel nerf was really poorly thought-out, instead of addressing the specific things that made the Dramiel OP in the first place (like having both a tracking and falloff bonus, meaning it can't be kited or speed-tanked), you simply made it slightly worse in every way. It's just completely unspecialized and useless now.

Succubus definitely needs work its horrible compared to the dram. The worm seems more of a pve ship. The obvious problem with this class of ships is the succubus.

Because frigate pve is so popular.

?

I like the phantasm, but i think it needs a new role. How about a bonus to command Links? It would make it unique amoung the pirate cruisers. Or bonuses to Ecm or something.

Because letting some ships being poor at their job for the sake of diversity is a better idea.
Your idea of balance.
Good job with that.

Well you're the one who imagined in the first place i wanted the ashimmu to be a Pilgrim with another shape.

Well you're the one who imagined in the first place i wanted the ashimmu to be a Pilgrim with another shape.

It's particulalry funny coming from someone who flies a Vigilant in its latest video over let's say, a Deimos or a Thorax. Why do you do that? Because it pounds the two former down to the ground, performing simply better, at the very same task.

Why would you complain if the same nice thing happened to the Ashimmu, or the Phantasm, in regard of other ships?

[quote=Merin Ryskin]

Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

[/list]

Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.[/list]

For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same.

Price is NOT a balancing factor FFS. Things become the most expensive sub-capital BECAUSE they are over-powered. Supply and demand.?

Or to put it another way: if someone gave me a Mach for free does that mean it should have the performance of a noobship?

Ships need to be balanced in relation to each other regardless of price. Eve has proven time after time after time that it does not matter how expensive a tool is, if it gives someone an advantage to use them then they will do. Ever hear about the nano age ? Or have you heard of tracking titans ? CCP has said over and over again that simply being expensive does not allow for something to be 'just better'. .

Of course it is.

Actually Eve has proven that cost is a huge factor. All of the navy battleships are better than the vanilla battleships. Yet people still fly the vanilla ones. Why? Cost.

Price is NOT a balancing factor FFS. Things become the most expensive sub-capital BECAUSE they are over-powered. Supply and demand.

Ships need to be balanced in relation to each other regardless of price. Eve has proven time after time after time that it does not matter how expensive a tool is, if it gives someone an advantage to use them then they will do. Ever hear about the nano age ? Or have you heard of tracking titans ? CCP has said over and over again that simply being expensive does not allow for something to be 'just better'.

The only reason why we don't see huge blobs of Machs is because it costs too much.

If you run the numbers, you'll find that if you fit it like an Alpha Maelstrom, it get s 20% more alpha, 20% more dps, 80% more speed (seriously... 835ms vs 1505ms), a radically longer effective range... a choice of either far faster lock time and max possible range (sig amps) or even furhter improved damage projection (TEs). The hull comes with better sensor strength, lower sig, more locked targets, a faster align. Oh and it has a utility high too.

The only reason why we don't see huge blobs of Machs is because it costs too much.

if you have the nuts to PvP in a 2B+ ship then you deserve the benefits.

So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ?

I'm glad CCP don't think like you.

IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much.

lol

You may not remember but CCP said the same thing about supers (and still, titans has been nerfed 4 times).

Scorpions. And the tiers3 BS are very competitive.
And it seems you have missed the memo. Powerblocks are definitively not flying these navy BS, not at all. No no no.
Fleet Phoon : not yet, blame ProgodLegend.
Fleet Tempest : it's a CFC fleet called "tech fleet".
Navy scorp : Shadow Cartel tried them a bit but BS missiles are too bad.
Navy Raven : ^see above.
Dominix : PL and Init both have a faction domi fleet.
Mega : no faction fleet mega for now, true.
Imperial arma : one of the most flown ship by heavy pirate gangs.
Imperial apoc : standard HBC doctrine as some smaller alliances.

Next time, think a bit before posting thanks.

So titan pilots deserved the right to blap everything ?

I'm glad CCP don't think like you.

IMO, a BS, with faction BS tank&gank (not even T1), shouldn't be as fast as a cruiser... It's ok for the ship to be better than a T1, but the mach have way too much.

Nice straw man argument, when did I ever say anything about expensive ships being invincible? The Mach is far from it, killboards are full of Mach ganks. If a Titan pilot wanted to give up the majority of their tank to be able to blap battleships that sounds like a trade off to me.

How is a Mach as fast as a cruiser? A cruiser with a prop mod is twice as fast as the Mach with the same type of prop mod.

100MN MWD Machariel speed (no speed mod) : 1505 m/s
10MN MWD Maller speed (no plate, no rig) : 1584 m/s
10MN MWD Moa speed (no plate, no rig) : 1530 m/s
How ? By being faster and lighter maybe ? And hopefully cruiser speed have been buffed recently, other wise, mach would be faster than most cruisers... (Yes, the mach was faster than most cruiser before the crusier tiericide). And yet, only the stabber may go twice as fast as a machariel.

Should justify how the mach have faction BS tank and gank too ? And I didn't even talk about damage projection...

And the supply of the machariel is not limited by price but by supply of BPC. IMO, you could multiply this supply by 100 and still sell them all. Supply of mach is not less than other pirate BS ; IMO, there is even a lot more of mach BPC drops because of this demand (more people farming them).

The machariel have the same place among BS than the pre tiericide Drake had among BC : an almighty warmachine able to do everything, and most of them better than any other ship.

I think the mach is perfect in terms of balance. Almost all of the pirate BS are very well balanced and perform well in their respective niche.

I think the mach is perfect in terms of balance. Almost all of the pirate BS are very well balanced and perform well in their respective niche.

For the love of god can you people ever leave well enough alone? For the Mach's 1.3B isk hull cost you should be getting all of those things that you listed. The Mach is a specialized ship, its not like there are 500 ship Mach blobs ruining the game for everyone. Some times things don't have to be nerfed. We don't want to play a game where all ships are 100% the same.

I'm all for the Mach being a good ship, but it practically does everything better than other ships in the game. It's just too damn fast, there is no way one of the physically biggest BS in the game should be able to match the pace of most cruisers, let alone battlecruisers.

Compare it to a Nightmare and the navy ships (ignoring Bhaalgorn/Vindi here due to being quite specialised) - the other ships are massively slower, but similar in most other respects.