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Wizard
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:34:00 -
[1]
Right the 1 thing that gets my goat up in this game more than anything is warpstabilisers.
I propose they get there fitting reqs. changed in the same manner as mwds/abs did.
For example after trying to have 1 v 1 recently with a geddon he manages to align and warp in what must be 1-5% structure ( yet again ).
Lucky him but i might add that once again my opponent put up a fierce fight back.
If you fit stabs there must be a penelty, i think bs sized ab for example should req. 50 cpu and 2500 powergrid.
Cruiser sized stabs 40 cpu and 250 grid.
Frigate sized stabs 30 cpu and 20 powergrid.
The above changes ( im no geek with figures etc like some of you ) will allow people to either fit stabs still if they TRAVEL, but will seriously gimp there ships if they wish to participate in the little known passtime of PVP.
No flames plz, constructive comments only.
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mirel yirrin
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:40:00 -
[2]
We need something like this. so a geddon could fit 8 stabs but it wouldn't be able to fit anything else.
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05.05.05 16:22 [Notify}
Combat Your Mega pulse Laser 2 strikes bunny, wrecking for 983.2 dmg
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... <<< Now Bunny is made of ash >:D
.. |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:44:00 -
[3]
I've given up worrying about balancing long ago but this actually sounds like a pretty neat idea. I always had the opinion stabs should only really be useful when you're travelling.
Mai's Idealog |
Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:49:00 -
[4]
And there you have it, the penalty for fitting is less low slots for damage mods etc.
if you want to stop people leaving a battle, use warp scramblers.
===============================================
In the immortal words of Socrates...
"I drank what ? " |
Kerby Lane
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:51:00 -
[5]
As I unerstand whole warp core str. system will be changed soon so no need for any ideas and suggestions right now.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.08.09 09:52:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
And there you have it, the penalty for fitting is less low slots for damage mods etc.
if you want to stop people leaving a battle, use warp scramblers.
Wheres the balance?
I've heard it all - you suck - bring friends - organise blah blah.
Current system is less than perfect imo - hard to get 9 points on a ship that is aligned and at speed.
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Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Wheres the balance?
I've heard it all - you suck - bring friends - organise blah blah.
Current system is less than perfect imo - hard to get 9 points on a ship that is aligned and at speed.
I tend to agree, aligning and warping in a 1 v 1 is a bit lame.
But I cant see what can be done as the flip side of the encounter your talking about.. a consensual (i presume) 1 v 1 , is a non consenusal gang fest.
Maybe involving 1 or more fast locking tackling frigates v's a lone traveller not wanting to PvP. So why shouldnt these people protect themselves with WCS to enable escape.
if you do away with WCS then shouldnt you do away with scamblers, bubbles etc etc etc.
===============================================
In the immortal words of Socrates...
"I drank what ? " |
babyblue
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:17:00 -
[8]
If you want to keep him in sight, use scamblers. If he fits enough WCS to avoid you even when you have them, he's seriously gimped his 'geddon damage setup.
The fitting of multiple WCS without penalty is required due to the fact that most encounters *are not* 1v1 in Eve. I've been ganked packing 8 WCS at a camp point (for travel). There isn't a problem. If anything, they need to be stronger :)
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:18:00 -
[9]
Simply make em highslot, either fight or run.
Of course Indys would get a bit shafted but some extra non-turret/missile slots could fix that 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Wizard
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Wheres the balance?
I've heard it all - you suck - bring friends - organise blah blah.
Current system is less than perfect imo - hard to get 9 points on a ship that is aligned and at speed.
I tend to agree, aligning and warping in a 1 v 1 is a bit lame.
But I cant see what can be done as the flip side of the encounter your talking about.. a consensual (i presume) 1 v 1 , is a non consenusal gang fest.
Maybe involving 1 or more fast locking tackling frigates v's a lone traveller not wanting to PvP. So why shouldnt these people protect themselves with WCS to enable escape.
if you do away with WCS then shouldnt you do away with scamblers, bubbles etc etc etc.
The problem here and no offense to you, but half my time i want to pvp solo, haveing ships atack me with full offensive then manage to egt away when they bite of more than they can chew.
Ahhh, no wait i c an answer to this now, ive been so jaded and my judgment so unclear....................lets take a geddon for example.
I shall fitit out like this solo next time so i can actually stop most people from getting away.
7 guns ( whatever, not important )
2 faction 3 point scramblers ( mizuro cybons i think ) and 1 mwd
8 nanofibers
Ahh yes no one shall escape me, i just hope they get gd price for my loot when i fail to kill them.
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Wizard
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Simply make em highslot, either fight or run.
Of course Indys would get a bit shafted but some extra non-turret/missile slots could fix that
Very very very BAD idea, youd have people fitting uber tank and all stabs in high slots, going in as bait and then getting out leaving the others aggressed to be ganked, would be very sad.
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Del Narveux
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:35:00 -
[12]
But there already is a big penalty to using a WCS, its called giving up a lowslot and a fair bit of CPU. Amarr and gallente cant do this without gimping their tank and/or damage, and caldari/minnie dont have enough lows to do anything even if they wanted to.
If they dont want to fight they dont want to fight, and at the very least should require a major effort to stop them if theyve fitted themselves to not get stopped.
_________________
[SAK] And Proud Of It!
aka Cpt Bogus
Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? |
Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:38:00 -
[13]
None taken.
The balance is there though , WCS vs Warp scramblers. theres the balance.
The trade of is using slots for WCS that could be used for damage mods etc etc.
Or using low slots for said items and not being able to get away.
Also, this guy you fought, I dont really see why he shuldnt try and protect his assets. He seems to have stayed in the fight until he was at 5% structure.
You won he lost, honour has been served. Just because you didnt get the money shot, although frustrating, doesnt matter that much.
===============================================
In the immortal words of Socrates...
"I drank what ? " |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.08.09 10:38:00 -
[14]
Wizard it would be usefull :)
With stabs in highslots the covert ops you have scouting can choose 'look at' the BS and see X number of stabs fitted etc.
I think putting them in highslot is excellent or give scramblers/disruptors a 100% chance of scrambling if the warp cores < scrambling strength but if warpcores >= scrambling based make it chance based and extend the 5 sec to 30 sec again :D
EVE System Security - Killboard (still early alpha) |
Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.08.09 12:58:00 -
[15]
How long do you expect the game to last if this change was implemented?
You do realize most people consider losing a ship to a gank gang they have no chance of beating to be un-fun right?
You also realize most people don't pay for things that aren't fun or necessary right?
Sorry, but I keep seeing gankers whine about lack of targets and then propose lame ideas to make ganking even more of a sure kill guarenteeing even FEWER targets.
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Moghydin
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:17:00 -
[16]
That's the most ridiculous thread I've read here. So you want WCS nerfed. Why? You can find scramblers that have 2 or 3 strength, but all WCS have 1 strength. There is some logic behind that because scramblers use mid slot and stabs use low slot, but what you propose will make the issue totally unbalanced. Stabs at high slots with strength 1? Stabs that use so much of grid or CPU that fitting weapons or tanking setup is impossible? Ship with stabs being unable to do anything but run? So, if it's after all scrambled (which can be achieved easily in a gang) the ship is a defenceless target? Even now the gankers and PK's have a lot of cool staff at their disposal, nerf stabs and you can rename Eve to PKers online.
But I think the proposed nerf will only contribute to the PvPer fun at the expense of everyone esle's fun. As in Eve PvP means you engage ship when you're 100% sure of the victory, something like taking a candy from a toddler - very funny and extremely challenging.
As to OP's post. I see no problem here. They guy warped at 1 on 1. You won, he lost. Where's the problem?
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Andicuri Vas
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:36:00 -
[17]
Maybe the reason that you were able to get into his structure is because he sacrificed tanking slots for the ability to run away: wcs. Isn't it just that simple?
I don't get what all of the wcs whining is about. Just like RL....some people are big and bad, some people are quick and slippery.....so what?
A
V
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Quanteeri
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:36:00 -
[18]
Hopefully, if they are rebuilding the warp core (+/-) items, they make them more like the EW gear, with chance base, with extended range and falloff, accompanied by skills for increasing the ability to use (+/-) modules.
(+/-) = (Stabilizers/Scramblers)
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:58:00 -
[19]
I have to agree with the poster. WCS are lame in combat.
If your going 1v1 with someone and you fit 1 wcs you cannot lose in 75% of engagements. You'll only lose if the other guys got a 7.5km scram on (eg hes using blaster setup) or if hes got multiple 20km disrupters on (eg his setup gimped more than the guy with 1 wcs).
4 times I've eengaged different hacs in my ferox and every time kicked thier buts.. they dive deep into armor.. I cackle manicly practicly wetting myself with excitement and expectation of the kill mail.. and then whoooosh.. the hac disapears..
I kick myself thinking maybe I havent turned on the 20km disrupter?? but nope I did, he just had wcs on 
Now this is just my experience, and IMHO wcs just promote mass ganking and gate camping. Its much easyier to try and nuke the guys at a gate before he can warp away.
Increasing fitting requirements is tricky though. there are several frig travel setups that would break completely, most of thses without guns anyway.
I'd like to propose a different solution.. give us warp scrambling drones \o/.
The same speed and size as light scouts, but that scramble with 0.5 strength. Make em fast but make it so they have a scramble range of 3->5km max. Also a hard limit of 30km range.
You couldnt use them for ganking frigs at gates as they'd never get in range in time. But once someone decides to engage you could then use them as you'd have sufficent time to let them close.
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aeti
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Posted - 2005.08.09 14:59:00 -
[20]
highslot + agility nerf
all is good
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Peoke
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:09:00 -
[21]
wow i think u should also post that putting tanks is lame and also stacking damage mods is even worse. as some one said before instead of extra damage or a tank warpcore is a way out. if u really wanted to kill the person fix ur setup and get more scrams on him thats all their is to it. if ur going to complain and nerf one thing then put others that are similar.
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:16:00 -
[22]
Quote:
highslot + agility nerf
IMHO highslot maybe.. agility nerf? meh, would screw up genuine travel setups
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Moghydin
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:17:00 -
[23]
Plz explain something to me. Is ganking a difficult task now? It's one of the easiest things to do. So, now some ppl want to nerf the anti-gank defence. For me, it's too much. You hardly can pass a system in low sec without a band of griefers waiting for you. WCS is one of the few in-game defences against gank, a defence which allowes a person, not interested in PvP to avoid PvP. Why it should be nerfed? Those who seek combat don't use it, or use it at minimum lvl, because they don't want to sacrifice their dmg dealing or tanking capabilities. Only those who don't want to fight will use it a lot. Even now 8 WCS geddon can be scrambled and destroyed. What next? Make WCS useless, so that it'll be even more fun at endless kill-boards, so that the competition for the uber-griefer of Eve will become even more exciting? For me, and I'm sure I'm not alone here, another gank boost will mean, I'll have to check the other options, and I mean outside Eve. And don't ask me for my staff as I see these cynical posts coming.
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Sir JoJo
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:18:00 -
[24]
well if WCS was chance based it would migth be cool..
i am no math specialist but some thing about.
1 stab gives a lets say 50 % of stabilise u warp
and 1 scrambler give a 50% chance etc..
then whit a stack bonus u might have 2 stabs that gives 75 % and so on
i know some could figure out a cool way to get this work..
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Be a warrior in game Not on forums
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Astarte Nosferatu
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:19:00 -
[25]
I agree 100% with Wizard 
------------------------------------------
Member of the [23]
Follower of the Blood Revolution.
Sani Sabik.
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:23:00 -
[26]
Higher Fitting reqs, and a way to tell if your opponent is using stabs... for isntance, you might call a geddon primary in like a 5v5... but if you can only scramble for -6 and see that this guy has 8 stabs on... You just leave him till last :)
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:23:00 -
[27]
Quote:
wow i think u should also post that putting tanks is lame and also stacking damage mods is even worse. as some one said before instead of extra damage or a tank warpcore is a way out. if u really wanted to kill the person fix ur setup and get more scrams on him thats all their is to it. if ur going to complain and nerf one thing then put others that are similar.
WCS are completely different to tanks and dammage mod stacking and to try and compare them kinda sucks.
Go gank and you have no tank, go tank and you cut your firepower massively. Fit a wcs and what do you give up?? almost nothing but a low slot and tiny bit of grid. what does it give you? Just 1 wcs is a get out of jail free card in most 1v1's, simple. tanks and gank setups arent.
You can engage in pvp with minimal risk with 1 and almost no risk at all with 2 if you in dont do something stupid.
leave the fitting reqs alone.. just give us scrambling drones IMHO.
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:23:00 -
[28]
Everyone smacks us for wearing stabs, yet we have killed plenty of Atuk/Bob/5 members loaded with them. Stillettos are the way forward.
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wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's |
Saladin
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:24:00 -
[29]
When stabs were medium slot items and consumed cap, people used them a lot less than they did today. I never knew why they became a low slot passive module.
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2005.08.09 15:27:00 -
[30]
there is one thing that should be kept in mind when proposing changes to wcs. chance based scrambling would be horrible. it would nerf ransoming piracy as the target would have a chance of warping away every scram cycle and lead to pure gankage.
say NO to chance based scram!
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:08:00 -
[31]
I think CCP has other plans for scrambling.
All the ships now have propulsion types and strenghs which would indicate things are happening in the direction of racial scramblers and size, as in a BS scrambler with loads of scrambling points but considering the locking time not something that is going to lock down a frigate.
In a dev blog (Electronic & Propulsion Warfare) it is also mentioned that scramblers will get a chance of scrambling and something about a 100% chance inside of a certain distance.
I would assume that WCS will also have "racial" equivilents in the new system, with different classes for each ship type and named ones maybe even giving better stabilization.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
I think CCP has other plans for scrambling.
All the ships now have propulsion types and strenghs which would indicate things are happening in the direction of racial scramblers and size, as in a BS scrambler with loads of scrambling points but considering the locking time not something that is going to lock down a frigate.
In a dev blog (Electronic & Propulsion Warfare) it is also mentioned that scramblers will get a chance of scrambling and something about a 100% chance inside of a certain distance.
I would assume that WCS will also have "racial" equivilents in the new system, with different classes for each ship type and named ones maybe even giving better stabilization.
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:17:00 -
[33]
Meh... leave stabs alone.
As it's been pointed out, they only cover for 1 point, while you can get scramblers to disable 3 points of warp strength. You can get disruptors that reach out to 40km or more.
If the guy wants to run, he's gonna run, if he has to fit 1 stab or 7. Let him. That's how he wants to play the game, and that's his perogative, not yours to gank him because he can only fit 1 or 2 stabs. You can try, that is your perogative, but success for either of you should never be 100% assured.
Oh... and if you want to nail down a BS: Any frig with 4 mids (Stiletto?) can nail down pretty much any single BS not fitting 100% WCS in low.
Mwd + 3 scrams = super fast tackler.
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Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:25:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Avon
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
Damn, I think that doing it the way described in that blog and accociated thread would have been a great move.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:29:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 09/08/2005 16:30:12
Hi-slot + high fitting + reduction of cloaking time when entering new system or reduction in warp speed
You can't effect agility with warp stabs because nanofibers in low would just cancel it out.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.08.09 16:30:00 -
[36]
My lowslots are precious to me. If I put a WCS in one, I can't fit:
Armour repairers
Armour hardners
Nanofibers
Overdrives,
Power diagnostic systems
Signal amplifiers
... and a whole host of other things that go into low slots.
Yes, a WCS gives you the chance to run away, however it's worth remembering that fitting them might also sacrifice the 'edge' that would have let you win instead of having to turn tail and flee.
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danneh
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:38:00 -
[37]
100 cpu per wcs thx.
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Quanteeri
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Posted - 2005.08.09 17:55:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Quanteeri on 09/08/2005 17:56:17
I would like to revise my statement that they should be like EW, with the exception that the mods should still be able to stack, something like shield hardener bonuses.
I do like the way EW works, but think that you should still be able to direct extra attention to a target, with a penalty, of course.
I just don't think it should be so linear.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2005.08.09 18:30:00 -
[39]
Yup, needs a big nerf. Back to midslots, or even highslots, would be okay....
BW
Originally by: Nervar
We allready play EvE wich by definition allready makes us the most patient people on the planet.
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2005.08.09 18:42:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 09/08/2005 18:43:20
"oh noes teh wurp stubbs!!11elleven11"
First of all wcs are a empiure pirates best friend. When you have a -10 sec status its great to fit your ship with stabbs since anyone can have a go at you. A fleet of frigates can scramble you at a gate simply because they wont get flagged. and if you kill someone at a gate, some innocent bystander might use the opertunity to scramble you...resulting in you losing your ship because you not only tanked another ship but allso sentrys.
If you are tired of people warping away then just use more/better scramblers instead of starting a sh1t thread.
Edit : Oh and ban all minmatar damage mods, its unfair booohooo!
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
Drosssk
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Posted - 2005.08.09 19:56:00 -
[41]
give warp core stabs a STACKING PENALTY just like everything else.
Make it so 8 stabs gives +5 max. Keeps the basic functionality and prevents the omgwtfhepackedafullrackofwarpcorestabs!!111
__________________
Enemies strengthen you. Allies weaken. |
Heritor
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Posted - 2005.08.09 20:06:00 -
[42]
Can we get +2 stabs as well plz
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Wizard
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Posted - 2005.08.09 22:55:00 -
[43]
No offense ( yet again ) to a lot of you, but im assuming 50% of people replying in this thread dont engage in pvp at all.
A lot of you refer to pvp as ganking, 2 or more people is ganking not 1 v 1.
Some of you say i should fit more scramblers to counter the stabs used but....if i fit more than 1 20k scrambler to my bs then that really does feck up any decent setup.
Someone else mentioned that people only engage in pvp when they are 100% sure theyll win, afraid your wrong there, many times ive been atacked and come out on top as im sure many others have.
This has all reminded me of an amusing fight i had a few weeks ago, had a geddon and was transporting it through 0.0 at a quite time ( was travelling so i fitted it for speed and frig killing just incase ) no stabs were used as i try not to.
A few jumps out from hed-gp i get atacked by a maller and a rupture, they atack and scramble me so i have to fight back as i have no stabs to get away.
Upon getting both of there ships to 0-10% armour they warp off while i had both scrambled.
Wasnt meant as smack as such but i typed somthing in local like " stabs?? and you atack me?"
To which 1 of them replyed " at least we got the balls to atack somthing bigger than us and risk our ships "
Excuse me but where are the BALLS and RISK if you got stabs on so know your gonna live.
A few people dont like my idea of making stabs fitting reqs. ship size specific like abs/mwds are<-----i think thats worked well and is how it should be.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.08.09 23:10:00 -
[44]
Nothing wrong with fitting warp stabs any more than there is fitting any other module. If you have some fitted and they allowed you to escape when you would have otherwise been destroyed, well done. Just becuase people don't like seeing ships they've scrambled escape doesn't mean there's somthing wrong with them.
Only thing I'd change would be to move them to highslots for several reasons...
- It gives a more equal chance for ships of the same class to fit the same number of stabs sicne most ships from race to race have the same number of highslots within a given class (but mid and low slot configs vary alot).
- It's a stronger discouragement for using them in pvp setups as you end up sacrificing damage output for better chances of escaping
The only bad side to moving them too high slots may be it makes traveling setups on battleships almost unstoppable as the ships can fit a tank setup, combined with instas and the ability to mount up to 8 warp core stabs.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.08.09 23:15:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Jaabaa Prime
I think CCP has other plans for scrambling.
All the ships now have propulsion types and strenghs which would indicate things are happening in the direction of racial scramblers and size, as in a BS scrambler with loads of scrambling points but considering the locking time not something that is going to lock down a frigate.
In a dev blog (Electronic & Propulsion Warfare) it is also mentioned that scramblers will get a chance of scrambling and something about a 100% chance inside of a certain distance.
I would assume that WCS will also have "racial" equivilents in the new system, with different classes for each ship type and named ones maybe even giving better stabilization.
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
I only remember them saying it was postponed untill further testing.
They have since gone on to give all the ships made since then the new propulsion strength stats also.
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Wraeththu
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Posted - 2005.08.09 23:19:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Wraeththu on 09/08/2005 23:19:46
Originally by: Wizard
Some of you say i should fit more scramblers to counter the stabs used but....if i fit more than 1 20k scrambler to my bs then that really does feck up any decent setup.
Lows full of stabs pretty much fecks your setup too.
I see advantages and disadvantages to it from both sides (because, as people keep pointing out to the "you'll just help pirates!!" whining, pirates use stabs more than normal people) so I'm not super partial.
But I do think it's balanced. If you moved it to mids, you'd just have ravens running around full of stabs and people complaining instead of geddons. (so it can't tank. neither can the geddon with it's lows full).
And yes, most of my PvP is stand alone, and yes it's annoying, but there's plenty of people out there looking for a fight.
As for classed sizes, you could just as easily make the same statement for every module in the game. I wouldn't argue with you, but it'd make for quite the packed market.
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Kadarin
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Posted - 2005.08.09 23:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: lythos miralbar
I'd like to propose a different solution.. give us warp scrambling drones \o/.
The same speed and size as light scouts, but that scramble with 0.5 strength. Make em fast but make it so they have a scramble range of 3->5km max. Also a hard limit of 30km range.
You couldnt use them for ganking frigs at gates as they'd never get in range in time. But once someone decides to engage you could then use them as you'd have sufficent time to let them close.
This is probably a bad idea: They'd hump each other, randomly go aggro on buildings, stargates, and stations, and generally wouldn't do what you tell them to do unless you tell them about 10 times. 
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Scott Le'Gault
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Posted - 2005.08.09 23:41:00 -
[48]
The ppl that saw nothing is wrong with WCS or that fitting them (thus sacrificing a lowslot) are completly clueless. It is the most unbalanced module in game simply because there is no real fitting or range penalty.
I'd be fine with using them and making scram/disruptor range infinite like WCS. So, we'll not nerf the WCS, just boost the scrams
How does that sound?
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2005.08.10 00:25:00 -
[49]
Quote:
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
It was tried.
It cause WCS to be actually *better* than they are now.
It was dropped.
Get your facts straight.
WCS could do with ~10 cpu increase, otherwise they're fine.
|
Deros
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 00:35:00 -
[50]
simple
give them a small stacking penalty that occurs after 4 or 5, more importantly give them an inertia alteration as a fitting cost.
1 - will slow your ships acceleration down a little.
2-3 your moving like a tank
5+ your moving like a freighter.
Deros
|
Slaveabuser
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 00:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Wizard
Upon getting both of there ships to 0-10% armour they warp off while i had both scrambled.
I see your point. However, they lived and thats the whole point of wcs. Wcs`s are to your engine like sensor backup arrays are to your targetting system.
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
nitr0s
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 01:15:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Slaveabuser
Originally by: Wizard
Upon getting both of there ships to 0-10% armour they warp off while i had both scrambled.
I see your point. However, they lived and thats the whole point of wcs. Wcs`s are to your engine like sensor backup arrays are to your targetting system.
Clearly by your posts, you've never pvp'd.
|
Slaveabuser
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 01:42:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 10/08/2005 01:45:02
Originally by: nitr0s
Clearly by your posts, you've never pvp'd.
Yes clearly.
Want a 1vs1?
Edit : Oh wait! Youre an alt.
who could have guessed?
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
Wild Rho
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 01:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: nitr0s
Originally by: Slaveabuser
Originally by: Wizard
Upon getting both of there ships to 0-10% armour they warp off while i had both scrambled.
I see your point. However, they lived and thats the whole point of wcs. Wcs`s are to your engine like sensor backup arrays are to your targetting system.
Clearly by your posts, you've never pvp'd.
Clearly neither have you
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Hellspawn666
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 02:12:00 -
[55]
Stabs are balanced wizard ure argument kidna sucks teh guy was using stabs that means that his setup was not as powerful had he not been using stabs u might of been the one who died. Stabs make ure setup ALOT weaker then the enmeis in a 1v1 situation tehre is not 5 stabed raven that can wtfpwn frig anymore so its fairly balanced.
Dont change a system that already works, if i fit 2 stabs on my sacrilige i cant tank half as well as anotehr sacrilige this means i am more likly to lose but it makes me less likly to be ganked its all about penalty the 30 cpu is already high enough penalty. If your going to give it a PG cost then lower the cpu usage.
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nitr0s
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 03:18:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Slaveabuser
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 10/08/2005 01:45:02
Originally by: nitr0s
Clearly by your posts, you've never pvp'd.
Yes clearly.
Want a 1vs1?
Edit : Oh wait! Youre an alt.
who could have guessed?
It doesnt matter, I dont need to talk about my accomplishments. However, by your comments I can tell you lack the experience in pvp to understand what is wrong with this no-penalty module.
|
nitr0s
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 03:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Hellspawn666
Stabs are balanced wizard ure argument kidna sucks teh guy was using stabs that means that his setup was not as powerful had he not been using stabs u might of been the one who died. Stabs make ure setup ALOT weaker then the enmeis in a 1v1 situation tehre is not 5 stabed raven that can wtfpwn frig anymore so its fairly balanced.
Then, why do DMG mods have a stacking penalty and WCS dont?
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Megadon
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 03:51:00 -
[58]
Waaaaaaaaaaaa! Someone got away!! and I have to use team work!! to kill things!!! Waaaaaaaaa! NO FAIR!!
That is what this sounds like.
Then everyone tosses out the 'balance' word, as if that makes everything under the whine a completely reasonable argument.
Stabs, just like any other defensive element in the game, can be overcome. If you can't figure it out, or develop tactics to deal with it, it's not CCP's responsibility.
People overcome stabs, ECM all kinds of things to get their kills and they do it every single hour of every day.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.10 04:49:00 -
[59]
Penalty for stabs = one of the following:
20% less cap recharge (OMG thats painful)
20% less damage (ouch, gimped!)
15% less range and tracking (gimp!)
-15% power grid (ouch!)
Oh wait, thats how it already is.
STABS ARE FINE.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Haggislander
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 06:49:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Penalty for stabs = one of the following:
20% less cap recharge (OMG thats painful)
20% less damage (ouch, gimped!)
15% less range and tracking (gimp!)
-15% power grid (ouch!)
Oh wait, thats how it already is.
STABS ARE FINE.
Looks like some fuzzy numbers to me....
|
Dark Shikari
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 06:57:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/08/2005 06:58:22
Originally by: Haggislander
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Penalty for stabs = one of the following:
20% less cap recharge (OMG thats painful)
20% less damage (ouch, gimped!)
15% less range and tracking (gimp!)
-15% power grid (ouch!)
Oh wait, thats how it already is.
STABS ARE FINE.
Looks like some fuzzy numbers to me....
No, they're perfectly accurate.
One stab means 20% less cap recharge, because you could have put a cap power relay there.
One stab means 15% less grid, because you could have put an RCU II there.
One stab means 20% less damage, because you could have put a tech 2 damage mod there.
Etc, all using similar or less CPU.
Anyone whining about stabs is just a pirate who can't find friends to help him.
Ask any serious PvPer--they will tell you stabs are just fine.
8 stabs on a geddon means that the geddon does BUNK damage at BUNK range. IT IS USELESS. One heatsink geddon can do as much damage as nearly three stabbed geddons.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day. |
Shiva Seran
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 07:22:00 -
[62]
i came across a guy who was in anger because he was engaged second time on a trip with his sacrilege. and he hates that as he told us. i told back that we just hate one item and he told me to shut up because it was a travel setup. he travelled a whole time up and down the hed - curse corridor with it though. i think we've had 2 scramblers and maybe one disruptor on his ship. that's sick.
free additional rant: one doesn't really need wcs. just fit a uber tank setup and if you are attacked turn reppers on and log off immediately without shooting back. that works STILL just fine - at least yesterday.
pvp is fun - sometimes... sometimes it is not.
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Avon
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 08:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Quote:
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
It was tried.
It cause WCS to be actually *better* than they are now.
It was dropped.
Get your facts straight.
WCS could do with ~10 cpu increase, otherwise they're fine.
You are saying the idea was dropped because it made stabs better?
No way.
It was dropped because everyone who HADN'T tried the changes moaned like hell about % based scrambling.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 08:41:00 -
[64]
How about this one:
New standard propulsion strength is 4.
New disruptor strength is 6.
New scrambler strength is 10.
New warp core stabilizer propulsion increase is 4.
Tech 2 WCS propulsion increase is 6.
Scrambling strengths does not stack.
scrambleChance = scramblerStrength / propulsionStrength
if(scrambleChance > 1)
scrambleChance = 1
Effect is that against an unstabbed ship, all scrambling is 100%. Against a single stabbed ship, disruptors are highly potent and scramblers are 100%. Against an 8 stab Armageddon (36 strength), each disruptor has a 16.7% chance and each scrambler has a 27.8% chance of succeding.
Since WCS were just nerfed seriously, fitting requirements would drop a wee bit and T2 variety would be available!
Verily, ships with more than 2 stabs still has a chance of escaping, even though an entire fleet has it scrambled. The chance is remote, however.
In addition, racial systems could be deviced if the devs feel nasty, and skill increase to scrambling strengths could also be introduced. In these two later cases, the basic scrambling of multi-racial scramblers would have to go down a notch, however. Also, in case of the skill thingy, bringing skills to level 5 would, naturally, make the equipment more potent than if the non-skill scenario would be chosen (using the guideline that level 4 skills are avarage)
--
Mercenary Coaltion has a policy of not shooting neutral, honest, corporations. That is what sets us apart. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 09:00:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Quote:
It was tried.
There was much whinage.
It was dropped.
It was tried.
It cause WCS to be actually *better* than they are now.
It was dropped.
Get your facts straight.
WCS could do with ~10 cpu increase, otherwise they're fine.
You are saying the idea was dropped because it made stabs better?
No way.
It was dropped because everyone who HADN'T tried the changes moaned like hell about % based scrambling.
Yes I'm saying that.
The percentage thing came together in a package with range and falloff for scramblers as well as propulsion strength (remnants of that can still be seen in the ship info and webbers still have 1m falloff). It caused webbers and scramblers to randomly fail at scrambling where they shouldn't have. It also made it possible for an unstabbed ship to escape 3 disruptors (or more).
Of course the testers (mostly PvP crowd) complained (rightfully so) and the idea was dropped because it didn't work out as intended. At that time about everybody was screaming webbers and scramblers were fine as it is and shouldn't be touched. That's exactly what CCP did then.
I personally do think of using 2+ WCS in a PvP rig as pretty lame (*ahem* -V- *ahem*), but it's a viable tactic as far as I'm concerned. As many people said, fitting stabs gimps your setup more than you think and you should get some benefit out of this. What's wrong with running when you're bound to lose your ship?
|
Ishana
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 09:15:00 -
[66]
I've had allot of experience with stab users lately, and I must say it get's frustrating.
Especially since I now gear my ship completely towards getting WCS users, and it totally gimps your setup. I'm ussually in a stiletto, and I have had builds with 3x disruptors in my midslots and nothing but cap power relays in low. It's very frustrating to see people STILL warp away when using such a setup. (that's 3 midslots + 3 lowslots to counter 2 lowslot items btw)
Fact is that you need a fast locker to scramble a target before it warps, so you're looking at smaller ships. Which means you have no cap left because of the huge drain disruptors use. Using scramblers to catch someone only works when you're very fast and have time to get close. (Which you hardly ever do)
I don't have a solution, but SOMETHING should be done. People should be able to fit travel setups so they can get around savely, no doubt in my mind. But seeing 3 ceptors scramble a BS for 5 points and then the BS warps way, REALLY gets to me..
_________________________________________________________
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Baleine4Nerver
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 09:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Scott Le'Gault
The ppl that saw nothing is wrong with WCS or that fitting them (thus sacrificing a lowslot) are completly clueless. It is the most unbalanced module in game simply because there is no real fitting or range penalty.
I'd be fine with using them and making scram/disruptor range infinite like WCS. So, we'll not nerf the WCS, just boost the scrams
How does that sound?
Not having a go at you personally, but please...
I find that people like this totally lack perspective, their blinkered and narrow minded opinion totally blocks their ability to accept or even consider someone elses opinion.
Your views are not the only ones and the views and opinions voiced hear are equally as valid as your own.
I myself PvP, and do not mind one jot if someone uses WCS and gets away. I have been scrambled while usign WCS and lost my ship..
WCS are fine the way they are IMO.
And anyone who disagrees is obviously special needs and a muppet.
===============================================
In the immortal words of Socrates...
"I drank what ? " |
Fester Addams
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 10:04:00 -
[68]
If the stabs are to be changed to the equivilent of frigg, cruiser and BS then so does warp jammers and webbifiers.
This would meen the death to all small tacklers and I doubt you want that.
So your oponent got lucky and got out, you should learn from the event and alter your setup to compensate not ask for the game to change to fit you.
------------
20. Is it true all pvpers have carebear alts?
Yes, of course. I have so much fun looking up who's alt is who's
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
Slaveabuser
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 10:56:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 10/08/2005 10:56:38
Originally by: nitr0s
It doesnt matter, I dont need to talk about my accomplishments. However, by your comments I can tell you lack the experience in pvp to understand what is wrong with this no-penalty module.
Well why dont you post with your main and face me in combat then? Afraid you kill get killed by teh n00b?
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
Slaveabuser
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 11:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: nitr0s
Originally by: Hellspawn666
Stabs are balanced wizard ure argument kidna sucks teh guy was using stabs that means that his setup was not as powerful had he not been using stabs u might of been the one who died. Stabs make ure setup ALOT weaker then the enmeis in a 1v1 situation tehre is not 5 stabed raven that can wtfpwn frig anymore so its fairly balanced.
Then, why do DMG mods have a stacking penalty and WCS dont?
Because they are damage mods.
Try to think for once.
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
Wizard
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 11:41:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Wizard on 10/08/2005 11:43:55
A lot of you say that teamwork should be used
Not everyone in this game wants to go round in groups all the time just so we can get some action, therefor the mentality of people to suggest me/anyone else to get someone else to join us to help scramble kills even more any chance of solo pvp in the game.
For the record im not a pirate, i just shoot anything nuetrel i come accross in 0.0, if you venture into 0.0 then you do so hopefully with the isk to replace ship loss, if you dont then you shouldnt be there.
Also fitting 1 stab thus gimping your setup cos you cant fit a tracking mod, damage mod whatever is complete bull****........there is no risk involved in atacking someone with a stab fitted, you can purly travel around all day engaging and running away untill you get lucky against a smaller target ( probably smaller ).
Whatever way you look at it, stabs discourage solo pvp and encourage ganking which gets whined about more than anything else.
Ive lost track of all the names of players in this game i dont even bother engaging in this game now cos theyll just run if it gets hot.
|
Shayla Sh'inlux
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 12:00:00 -
[72]
WCS is just one way to protect your ship.
Some people use an armor repairer to stay alive, other fit WCS. You have a pretty narrow perspective on this game when you're complaining about a module because you happen to have targets warp away on you.
You realize that there are people that don't want to solo-PvP for whatever reason? Warpcore Stabs are a good way to protect yourself against the oh so common gate gank squads of an inty and 2 BS. In some regions in 0.0 travel without WCS is suicide and because you can't simply refit in space, people have to compromise between using WCS and other lowslot modules.
Imagine this:
A PvP'er is just patrolling some systems, checking if there are any hostiles around in smaller ships or transport ships. Maybe someone is ratting. He's just flying around, chatting a bit in his corp channel, alt-tabbing out to read up on forums while he warps etc.
You are that hostile, but you are specifically looking for a target. Ship fitted for 1v1, mind is set for 1v1. You will also only engage when you are sure you can win.
You run into this patrolling guy. He didn't expect you, but decides to give it a shot, even though he's not fitted for 1v1'ing someone prepared for it. Or maybe he's not that into battleships. He relays the intel in his corp chat. Depending on which corp or alliance he's in they will muster between 2 and 10 battleships to get rid of you.
The battle starts and it's clear he's not going to win. I don't know what you define as a fierce fight, but you did shoot him in structure, so your setup was clearly better for the situation. Or of course it's a pure skillpoint thing, but that is only one more reason to fit that WCS. So he warps off. Good thing he fitted that WCS or he'd lost his ship. Bad thing you chose for yet another sensor booster or tracking computer. You should have had an extra point.
Now you are ****ed off and call for a WCS nerf. I honestly don't get it.
|
Fred0
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 12:06:00 -
[73]
Anyone fitting wcs in pvp gimps their setup imho. That said, I'd be all for increasing the penalties in decreasing the possibility of fitting a semi-decent pvp setup with stabs.
Don't fight the game, embrace it fully.
|
Altai Saker
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 12:07:00 -
[74]
Here is why stabs are unbalanced.
If you have stabs fitted, you can kill someone, but they cant kill you.
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Deja Thoris
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 12:18:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Altai Saker
Here is why stabs are unbalanced.
If you have stabs fitted, you can kill someone, but they cant kill you.
Hence you adapt and blob and gank the bastard before he aligns.
Then you listen to whines of omg 10v1 u r teh sux0rz
Damned if you do - damned if you dont.
|
eddie valvetino
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 12:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Wizard
Right the 1 thing that gets my goat up in this game more than anything is warpstabilisers.
I propose they get there fitting reqs. changed in the same manner as mwds/abs did.
For example after trying to have 1 v 1 recently with a geddon he manages to align and warp in what must be 1-5% structure ( yet again ).
Lucky him but i might add that once again my opponent put up a fierce fight back.
If you fit stabs there must be a penelty, i think bs sized ab for example should req. 50 cpu and 2500 powergrid.
Cruiser sized stabs 40 cpu and 250 grid.
Frigate sized stabs 30 cpu and 20 powergrid.
The above changes ( im no geek with figures etc like some of you ) will allow people to either fit stabs still if they TRAVEL, but will seriously gimp there ships if they wish to participate in the little known passtime of PVP.
No flames plz, constructive comments only.
i agree - lots of stabs fitted is a pain - but there is already a major trade off anyway
Most damage mods are lowslots and even the raven needs lows for a good tank
so running stabs already cuts down your combat strength
more over - what about all the carebears that need stabs for moving stuff around
personally i think (annoying as it maybe) the current set up is good
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Moghydin
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 13:55:00 -
[77]
Those who don't want to fight, want to run, that's why they use WCS. IMHO, fighting those who have no intention to fight you is griefing. It's like in RL, looking for a fight in a boxing or martial arts club is ok. But punching in the face the 1-st guy you meet on the street is not. Gankers do exactly that, and then they whine that they can not capture that guy to comfortably beat him to death. Complaining about WCS mostly comes from gankers who are even too lame to use a proper tackler in their squad. WCS are fine as they are now and should be left alone.
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Slaveabuser
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 13:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Altai Saker
Here is why stabs are unbalanced.
If you have stabs fitted, you can kill someone, but they cant kill you.
Here is why target jammers are unbalanced.
If they have backup arrays fitted, you can kill someone, but they cant kill you...................supposedly.
=1 Industry skills trained, for a total of 250 skillPoints= |
Trooper B99
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 14:21:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Trooper B99 on 10/08/2005 14:22:59
I think all of us can deal with people running 1-3 stabs on their ships. Once you get past 4 it starts to get on the tacklers nerves *chuckles* especially on their combat set-ups which I personally class as little more than "catch-me if you can" annoyance set-ups. Max i would run in a combat set-up is two, but thats me.
On the whole, i like the idea of frig/cruiser/BS class stabs but failing that how about just adding a couple "bonuses" to the stabs.
possibly
5% Agility penalty + 10% Warp speed penalty per stab.
You run afew stabs, the hit isn't too major. You run 5 thats a 25% agility penalty and your BS moves at 1.5 Au/s. You run 8 stabs, thats a 40% agility nerf and you move at 0.6 Au/s - yer in something like a freighter.
That would give tacklers and combat craft a far better oppertunity harm the ship in the build up to warp and also to stay with the stabbed up "joy-rider" while not interfering with a persons choice in gimping their travel set-up because of massive grid/cpu increases on WCS.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
|
W0lverine
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 14:22:00 -
[80]
just remove the damn thing from the game
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Rafein
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 15:19:00 -
[81]
Leave it low slot, but make it activated again, and use cap, like 25 cap every 6 seconds.
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Shin Ra
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 15:59:00 -
[82]
Chanced based scrambling is possibly the worst idea ever. You CAN NOT have a 1v1 because there is a high chance that whoever is loosing will see this and will warp away the next time scramblers don't work. And the EW style webbing would be even worse. At the end of the day:
Chance sucks
Skill 4tw.
-----------------------------------------
wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's |
Marek II
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 17:23:00 -
[83]
Wait a minute... time for the classic ganker response to those of us who don't want PvP crammed up our backside
... wait for it...
... wait for it...
... wait for it...
"the tools are there for you to FORCE your pathetic ego-trip ganking on your victim, err target... USE EM!!!"
Also if the complaint is that weenie pvp'ers can still fight/kill AND have WCS then can't aggressors fight/kill AND have scramblers (with twice or thrice the strength no less)???
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Deros
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 19:35:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Deros on 10/08/2005 19:37:29
guys, take a deep breath and calm down, i have the firm belief that they need only small tweaking.
No increased changes to fitting,
No negative effects on CAP
and most definately
No to making their effect chance based. (yes i tested it, and i think the current system is better, apart from the power of stabs).
simply give them a stacking penalty, which should only kick in after 3 are fitted, and then give them a negative effect on the agility of the ship that they are fitted on.
at the moment they are overpowered, but people need to get less bent out of shape about it.
yes i pvp, no i am not an alt, and no i dont want an i win button either.
Deros
|
Haggislander
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 19:40:00 -
[85]
Ok, I'll explain for the empire crowd here.
The problem with WCS is know. That being said, nobody has a problem with them fit to a ship for travel. The problem is fitting them on a pvp setup has no negative effect. I dont want to hear the B.S. that it robbs you of a slot as that is a phoney crutch. There are plenty of ships that can accomidate 4 wcs and still be evective at ganking ppl, espicially in small squads. That is where the problem comes in.
To sum up:
Travel setup = fine
Pvp = needs penalty
|
Haggislander
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 19:49:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Moghydin
Those who don't want to fight, want to run, that's why they use WCS. IMHO, fighting those who have no intention to fight you is griefing. It's like in RL, looking for a fight in a boxing or martial arts club is ok. But punching in the face the 1-st guy you meet on the street is not. Gankers do exactly that, and then they whine that they can not capture that guy to comfortably beat him to death. Complaining about WCS mostly comes from gankers who are even too lame to use a proper tackler in their squad. WCS are fine as they are now and should be left alone.
Hi,
The solution to all your junk above is to STAY OUT OF DANGEROUS AREAS. I dont want to hear any RL (crappy) analogy, this is a space game.
CCP has provided you with TONS of .5+ space to roam in worry free (for the most part). IF you want to play with the big boys, you need to understand the consiquences. If you want only consentual pvp (***) go play WOW or someother cardboard cutout, k?
|
Moghydin
|
Posted - 2005.08.10 22:39:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Haggislander
Hi,
The solution to all your junk above is to STAY OUT OF DANGEROUS AREAS. I dont want to hear any RL (crappy) analogy, this is a space game.
CCP has provided you with TONS of .5+ space to roam in worry free (for the most part). IF you want to play with the big boys, you need to understand the consiquences. If you want only consentual pvp (***) go play WOW or someother cardboard cutout, k?
I see the whinage about WCS as another attempt from the PvP comunity to further nerf the empire space and empire pilots. And I'm afraid that as in the case with lvl 4 mission nerf, you'll get what you ask. I don't want to start that risk/reward thing. It's off-topic and it's clear that gankers have only reward/no risk situation.
Many talk about frustration when a prey escapes. I feel your pain. But what about frustration when you lose your ship? Why doesn't it count? Or is it less frustrating? Any ship can have only up to 8 WCS starength. Tackler can throw at him up to 16 scrambling strength. Where's the problem? Use tacklers.
In PvP a ship with 4 WCS has either reduced dmg output or reduced tanking. So, no problem here too. And who said that a road to fight is a one way ticket if you lose? Why the possibility of retreat from a battle should be nerfed? Having non-standard ship setups is part of fun and challenge. Using different modules smart and tactical manuvering (sp) in battle is a good thing. If you want an arcade style shoot em all game, go and play Quake with some 13 year old m3gawtfpwnage kid.
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Fellhand
|
Posted - 2005.08.11 00:06:00 -
[88]
Move them to med slot, *shrug* I only use 'em for running ganker blocades anyway.
_______________________________________________
There is no such thing as too much cynicism
Flame me if you wish, I laugh with scorn at threats...
Beware of geeks bearing gifs
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Nyxus
|
Posted - 2005.08.11 00:11:00 -
[89]
I think there is a lot of confusion here on *WHY* a lot of pvper's hate wcs. You have to differentiate between pvpers and gankers.
If someone wants to use 8 stabbies on a travel setup no one cares. I myself have put 8 stabbies on a geddon I bought to try to get home safely to refit. That's fine. No one cares.
The problem is that gankers are smart. Get 3-5 BS loaded with 5 stabbies sitting at long range outside a station. Anything that undocks gets pwned. Anything gets close to them and they warp away. And its incredibly frustrating when you FINALLY sneak 3 ceptors to warp in on top of them and with 4 points of scramble they....<poof> warp off.
You can't catch them. They just wait for a the timer to run out and log. When the system quiets, they log back on rinse and repeat. The stabbies don't effect their combat efficiency. And you can't catch ONE of them without 4+ tacklers. How do you catch someone with 5 stabbies aligned and up to speed? Answer: You can't, unless the ganker is stupid.
Have you ever tried fighting a small group with ALL of them 5+ stabbies? I have, it sucks. Maybe thier damage isn't optimized, but its so effective it doesnt matter. And unless you bring MASSIVE overkill fleets you cant kill them before you warp. Bumping is the ONLY way you have a chance to stop them. But fights with 5 to 1 odds are just lame.
No one wants to mess with travel setups. Even 1 or 2 stabs are fine. Anyone who is a pvper hates combat capable ships of 4+ stabbies. This is what has to change.
Travel (relatively) safely, or fight. No more combat with 5 Stabbies.
Nyxus
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n0sPIG
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Posted - 2005.08.11 00:21:00 -
[90]
Edited by: n0sPIG on 11/08/2005 00:30:34
Soz if this comes out wrong, but wouldnt it be easier to get a better kit and kill them quicker?
Seriously, all this complaining about WCS yet you all use them. (You can deny it all you want)
I personally dont see the issue, if someone gets away from me after I scramble them I dont cry about it thats what WCS are designed for. They are good for when you have a frig scrambling and bs shooting you, if you need to get out of that particular situation. Im sure theres not many PVP'ers who can say they havent used them and been thankful for it.
:edit: after thinking bout it a little more (gawd im spozed to be working!), I can see this is coming from a PVP point of view, but i think of all those T2 traders, miners etc that have to travel through lowsec and i cant see WCS being changed, just because the pvp'ers have a problem with their easy kills getting away.
My apologies for the edit, im a bit slow on the uptake today, late night busy day @ work im sure you know the drill.
(my own views - none on part of my corp or alliance) |
FlakKer
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Posted - 2005.08.11 00:41:00 -
[91]
Edited by: FlakKer on 11/08/2005 00:41:42
alt 4tw
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2005.08.11 00:42:00 -
[92]
Originally by: mirel yirrin
We need something like this. so a geddon could fit 8 stabs but it wouldn't be able to fit anything else.
Is that a setup? lol
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Plim
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Posted - 2005.08.11 00:42:00 -
[93]
Warm cream sandwiches are bad.
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Wizard
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Posted - 2005.08.11 09:14:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 11/08/2005 00:21:49
I think there is a lot of confusion here on *WHY* a lot of pvper's hate wcs. You have to differentiate between pvpers and gankers.
If someone wants to use 8 stabbies on a travel setup no one cares. I myself have put 8 stabbies on a geddon I bought to try to get home safely to refit. That's fine. No one cares.
The problem is that gankers are smart. Get 3-5 BS loaded with 5 stabbies sitting at long range outside a station. Anything that undocks gets pwned. Anything gets close to them and they warp away. And its incredibly frustrating when you FINALLY sneak 3 ceptors to warp in on top of them and with 4 points of scramble they....<poof> warp off.
You can't catch them. They just wait for a the timer to run out and log. When the system quiets, they log back on rinse and repeat. The stabbies don't effect their combat efficiency. And you can't catch ONE of them without 4+ tacklers. How do you catch someone with 5 stabbies aligned and up to speed? Answer: You can't, unless the ganker is stupid.
Have you ever tried fighting a small group with ALL of the enemy have 5+ stabbies? I have, it sucks. Maybe thier damage isn't optimized, but its still so effective it doesnt matter. And unless you bring MASSIVE overkill fleets you cant kill them before they warp. Bumping is the ONLY way you have a chance to stop them. And fights with 5 to 1 odds are just lame. I dont want to blob, I want a good fight.
No one wants to mess with travel setups. Even 1 or 2 stabs are fine. Anyone who is a pvper hates combat capable ships of 4+ stabbies. This is what has to change.
Travel (relatively) safely, or fight. No more combat with 5 Stabbies.
Nyxus
OMG its like someone sucked my thoughts from my head
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.08.11 16:00:00 -
[95]
nyxus, i think that your post completely describes the problems, people think everyone to be "gankers" rather than wanting pvp.
D
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Imran
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Posted - 2005.08.11 16:24:00 -
[96]
highslot plz.
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StokolaN
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Posted - 2005.08.11 16:52:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
And there you have it, the penalty for fitting is less low slots for damage mods etc.
if you want to stop people leaving a battle, use warp scramblers.
Agreed! The penalty for using stabs is that your setup is now compromised in battle. I'm surprised people are really worried about the pvp capabilities of a stabbed up ship. If you die to a ship with 8 stabs you deserve it, if they get away before you kill them, that's what they fitted their ship for and that's fine also. The reason they had to warp was probably because they were stabbed up in the first place and it compromised their tank or didn't allow them to use dmg mods.
_
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Dukath
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:11:00 -
[98]
For those who want warp cores back as medslot, remember that webbies and scramblers were highslot at that time.
Although now that i think about it, it might make interceptors more intercepting ships and less damage ships... And less battleships will fit scramblers since they will have to give up a highslot or even 2
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:52:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Hellspawn666
Stabs are balanced wizard ure argument kidna sucks teh guy was using stabs that means that his setup was not as powerful had he not been using stabs u might of been the one who died. Stabs make ure setup ALOT weaker then the enmeis in a 1v1 situation tehre is not 5 stabed raven that can wtfpwn frig anymore so its fairly balanced.
Dont change a system that already works, if i fit 2 stabs on my sacrilige i cant tank half as well as anotehr sacrilige this means i am more likly to lose but it makes me less likly to be ganked its all about penalty the 30 cpu is already high enough penalty. If your going to give it a PG cost then lower the cpu usage.
/agree
I Die A lot in this vid
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Haggislander
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:52:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 11/08/2005 00:21:49
I think there is a lot of confusion here on *WHY* a lot of pvper's hate wcs. You have to differentiate between pvpers and gankers.
If someone wants to use 8 stabbies on a travel setup no one cares. I myself have put 8 stabbies on a geddon I bought to try to get home safely to refit. That's fine. No one cares.
The problem is that gankers are smart. Get 3-5 BS loaded with 5 stabbies sitting at long range outside a station. Anything that undocks gets pwned. Anything gets close to them and they warp away. And its incredibly frustrating when you FINALLY sneak 3 ceptors to warp in on top of them and with 4 points of scramble they....<poof> warp off.
You can't catch them. They just wait for a the timer to run out and log. When the system quiets, they log back on rinse and repeat. The stabbies don't effect their combat efficiency. And you can't catch ONE of them without 4+ tacklers. How do you catch someone with 5 stabbies aligned and up to speed? Answer: You can't, unless the ganker is stupid.
Have you ever tried fighting a small group with ALL of the enemy have 5+ stabbies? I have, it sucks. Maybe thier damage isn't optimized, but its still so effective it doesnt matter. And unless you bring MASSIVE overkill fleets you cant kill them before they warp. Bumping is the ONLY way you have a chance to stop them. And fights with 5 to 1 odds are just lame. I dont want to blob, I want a good fight.
No one wants to mess with travel setups. Even 1 or 2 stabs are fine. Anyone who is a pvper hates combat capable ships of 4+ stabbies. This is what has to change.
Travel (relatively) safely, or fight. No more combat with 5 Stabbies.
Nyxus
AMEN!
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Haggislander
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:55:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Haggislander
Hi,
The solution to all your junk above is to STAY OUT OF DANGEROUS AREAS. I dont want to hear any RL (crappy) analogy, this is a space game.
CCP has provided you with TONS of .5+ space to roam in worry free (for the most part). IF you want to play with the big boys, you need to understand the consiquences. If you want only consentual pvp (***) go play WOW or someother cardboard cutout, k?
I see the whinage about WCS as another attempt from the PvP comunity to further nerf the empire space and empire pilots. And I'm afraid that as in the case with lvl 4 mission nerf, you'll get what you ask. I don't want to start that risk/reward thing. It's off-topic and it's clear that gankers have only reward/no risk situation.
Many talk about frustration when a prey escapes. I feel your pain. But what about frustration when you lose your ship? Why doesn't it count? Or is it less frustrating? Any ship can have only up to 8 WCS starength. Tackler can throw at him up to 16 scrambling strength. Where's the problem? Use tacklers.
In PvP a ship with 4 WCS has either reduced dmg output or reduced tanking. So, no problem here too. And who said that a road to fight is a one way ticket if you lose? Why the possibility of retreat from a battle should be nerfed? Having non-standard ship setups is part of fun and challenge. Using different modules smart and tactical manuvering (sp) in battle is a good thing. If you want an arcade style shoot em all game, go and play Quake with some 13 year old m3gawtfpwnage kid.
I so tire of the usual knee-jeck assumptions by players liek yourself. The simple fact is tossing labels out in an argument means you have no argument. Your very premise is a flawed POV. Ganks tent to happen because you need to have overwhelming firepower to kill-before-warp. Nobody likes to play that way that I know.
The point we are trying to drum across here is that fitting many WCS on a combat setup needs a fixing. Just like the uber raven needed a fixing. Understand this now?
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.08.11 18:57:00 -
[102]
Edited by: DrunkenOne on 11/08/2005 18:58:47
Originally by: Deros
Edited by: Deros on 10/08/2005 19:37:29
guys, take a deep breath and calm down, i have the firm belief that they need only small tweaking.
No increased changes to fitting,
No negative effects on CAP
and most definately
No to making their effect chance based. (yes i tested it, and i think the current system is better, apart from the power of stabs).
simply give them a stacking penalty, which should only kick in after 3 are fitted, and then give them a negative effect on the agility of the ship that they are fitted on.
at the moment they are overpowered, but people need to get less bent out of shape about it.
yes i pvp, no i am not an alt, and no i dont want an i win button either.
Deros
This is the best idea yet. But make it a stacking penalty after 2. And possibly increase fitting to 50 cpu. This would make it so even if you had say 8 stabs on, making your ship worthless, you would effectively have 4 or something. And 5 stab ravens would = 3 or something like that.
I Die A lot in this vid
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danneh
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:03:00 -
[103]
If u make them 100 cpu not many pvp setups will include one that means 3 dmg mods or 1 stab and travel setups will still be ok but dont see any geddons fitting 8 though.
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Verone
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:16:00 -
[104]
Make them midslot again, slightly more CPU usage, and give them a stacking penalty like damage mods have.
MY NAME IS VERONE OF SNIGG, AND I AM GOING TO KILL YOU TILL YOU DIE FROM IT! |
Moghydin
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Posted - 2005.08.11 20:37:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Verone
Make them midslot again, slightly more CPU usage, and give them a stacking penalty like damage mods have.
No problem, but make scramblers stack on target too, also make named and factional stabs at 2 and 3 strength. And plz stop asking CCP for "I win" button in ganking.
Well, not all PvP in Eve is ganking, as I was able to see it myself today, and not everyone engages only when he is 100% sure he will win, but MOST PvP in Eve is gank, so if WCS nerfed, ganked gate can be only passed if you bring a huge battleship fleet there - not good at all.
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Reptar
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Posted - 2005.08.11 21:34:00 -
[106]
We need to encourage more people into 0.0, nerfing the Stabs will only prevent this
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Saladin
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Posted - 2005.08.11 21:35:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Verone
Make them midslot again, slightly more CPU usage, and give them a stacking penalty like damage mods have.
I think making them mid-slot like it was before is sufficient, without cpu or stacking penalties. When they were mid-slot I only ever came across one guy who used them in combat
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Crushing Abyss
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Posted - 2005.08.11 21:42:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Reptar
We need to encourage more people into 0.0, nerfing the Stabs will only prevent this
Just curious, why do you want to encourage more people into 0.0? Besides joining an alliance corp and PvPing what's there to do out there that you can't already do in fed space?
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Haggislander
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Posted - 2005.08.12 01:05:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Verone
Make them midslot again, slightly more CPU usage, and give them a stacking penalty like damage mods have.
No problem, but make scramblers stack on target too, also make named and factional stabs at 2 and 3 strength. And plz stop asking CCP for "I win" button in ganking.
Well, not all PvP in Eve is ganking, as I was able to see it myself today, and not everyone engages only when he is 100% sure he will win, but MOST PvP in Eve is gank, so if WCS nerfed, ganked gate can be only passed if you bring a huge battleship fleet there - not good at all.
Scams already have a range and heavy cap usage(for frigs). I want you to understand something already; NOBODY THINKS THEY NEED TO BE NERFED FOR TRAVEL, JUST FOR COMBAT.
Could you please try to understand the above and also understand it has nothing to do with gankage as true gankage is a kill so fast they have no need to be scrambled.
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