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Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 16:34:00 -
[391] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:E-2C Hawkeye wrote:So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining? AFK Mining results in in game resources being generated and put into your cargo hold which can be sold/used for profit "AFK Cloaking" produces nothing. You gain nothing. Why are you rallying so hard against "AFK Cloakers" but not people who sit in their pos afk, or in their station afk?
in player controlled null sec if a neut or red is in your station that would be cause for concern .. same goes for one of your POSs.
but in both case i can watch them, and I know where they are and therefore where they are not.
i can keep on eye on them docked or at a POS . and will know when they change from being innactive to active. 1 mbr of the blues can be tasked to carry out the task of watching them and egt the warning out when they returned to being active. Once would also be to see what they are flying at the POS, or watch undock.
This is not the same with AFK cloakers.
and i would counter the notion that AFK cloakers do not produce or gain anything .. they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker.
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Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
403
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Posted - 2013.06.07 16:38:00 -
[392] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:t...snipped but good points... I fail to see why people could, withj a straight face, say that every single person who has a problem with AFK Cloakers (of the "all day in your system doing nothing but being there" variety) has nothing to complain about. Their complaints, and proposed solutions, might not be accurate or right for the game but they should not be belittled in the way they always have been by the aggresive types. These notions should be countered, not dismissed, and the posters should be educated to see the other side of the debate not ridiculed out of hand.
I realise this is a lot to expect from the posters on a forum dedicated to an online internet spaceship game.
I can say it with a straight face. The reason I can say it with a straight face is that I am that nullsec carebear with a perma camped cloaky in his system and it hasn't stopped me. It's all about playing the game. If you have the mentality where you want to play the game how you want to play the game and screw everyone else you should be playing a one player game. If you want to play a MASSIVELY multiplayer game then you need to learn how to figure ways round things. You need to work out how to play the game how you want to play the game within the confines of the game. People whining because they can't play exactly how they want to has destroyed other MMOs because the owners have caved to a few whiners on the forums rather than seeing the big picture and a lot of the players on this forum have seen it happen and don't want it to happen to EVE.
As for belittling their complaints I think you'll find that most of the people who have, in recent times, belittled anyone about this have at one point or another (and in a lot of cases I know, a LOT) have explained exactly why nerfing cloaks without a raft of other changes at the same time would be bad, they've explained how to get around the "problem" with current game mechanics and offered help to those that still don't understand and after doing this repeatedly they get frustrated with the same thing being posted by people who can't be bothered to use the search bar and people who start their posts with "I haven't searched because.....". The fact is that most of the people who whine about cloaks don't want a solution. They don't want to work around the problem. They want CCP to stop people from attacking them. They want to have a slice of nullsec without risk. I know this because I've tried to engage quite a few people who've started these topics in order to explain to them how to pve in nullsec with relative safety and I have yet to have ONE person who doesn't just dismiss me out of hand and demand that CCP fix it so they can't get hot dropped or attacked.
Well, I'm a nullsec carebear and I say keep cloaks. Keep them because they provide valid counters to various gameplay styles. Keep them because they're necessary for scouting. Keep them because when I'm exploring for an entire day I want to be able to go to the toilet/make a cup of tea without having to log off and log back on again. These wants are just as valid, if not more valid than the wants of those few who have a problem with cloaks and REFUSE to adapt. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 17:07:00 -
[393] - Quote
i dont have a probelem with the cloak
i have a problem with afk cloakers - who never engage, who dont do anything but sit in local cloaked because they know it upsets people.
i wish i could fight with every neut that came into system, id sawp my miner out for a pvp fit ship and have a go .. id probably lose - but that would be what i call fun.
setting up a corp to deal with the mere possibility that the afk cloaky might this hour engage usually results in overkill defences and the resultant affect the afk cloaky, who might return to game, will never engage .. which wastes peoples time and effort.
my entire issue is that someone can input no effort at all into game, at no risk to themselves and in turn have a wide impact on others who must adjust to a direct possibility - rather than the indirect possibility of a hostile ship(s) approaching and entering system.
How do you adapt by the way, specifically .. there is no way that i can see to adapt without making sacrifices - sacrifices the afk cloaker does not have to make. That to be is the entire issue .. there is no counter to the threat .. only adaptation. You can not stop the afk cloaker .. you have add more non-isk-making ships to the mix that usual , who will most likely sit there bored out of their minds the entire time they are in gane, in the off chance the afk guy shows up and actually does something, which 99% of the time they wont.
It does not seem to me to be much a stretch to at leaast want some recourse to the perma afk cloaky in system, some risk for their reward of disrupting the system. At the moment is riskless reward .. which is not very eve like. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
1822
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Posted - 2013.06.07 17:42:00 -
[394] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:...and i would counter the notion that AFK cloakers do not produce or gain anything .. they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker. Well, that is awfully disingenuous...
Here is an analogy for you.
A group of primitive people on world X feel earthquakes because planetary interaction is harvesting resources. The PI taking place is a detail they are oblivious to. The earthquakes themselves have no effect on their buildings or activities, but they are frightened by the effect because they think it might be an angry god warning them. They always notice a smoking volcano, Lo Kal, billowing heavily when this happens. So, to appease the angry smoke god, they assumed he wished their prayers when he was angry, and so they stayed in their huts praying whenever the smoke was heavy from Lo Kal.
The smoke does not make them do this, they are reacting to this on their own. They are making assumptions that the smoke is an angry god who will punish them.
Now the guy doing the PI might like the natives praying to him, indirectly as it was, but he is not controlling the primitives reaction, and it certainly has no real value except to feed his ego. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14913
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:09:00 -
[395] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining? You seem to be under the impression that the change to mining some how affects someone going AFK whilst they mine. It doesn't. Plus AFK mining requires you to return to the comp to continue the activity, if you wish to gain more ice/ore.
AFK cloaking doesn't result in items or ISK, so therefore doesn't require you to return to the comp.
But please answer me this. Whilst they are AFK and cloaked, which mechanic are they using to interact with you?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14913
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 18:19:00 -
[396] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker. They hope to produce fear. But the the thing about psychological warfare is, that it is not a guarantee. But answer me this: Whilst they are AFK and producing fear in you, which mechanic are they using to do this?
Oh and no one AFK cloaked ever stopped you using gates, docking, undocking, activating modules, warping etc etc. The only one stopping that is you.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 18:46:00 -
[397] - Quote
they are using a cloaking mechanic + afk rules (mainly that there arnt any -- many MMO log you out when you are a AFK)...
with the potential for harm to come at any time in the future or never.
those on the receiving end never know if the pilot is truly AFK or not , therefore they must assume that the pilot is not AFK and potential threat at all times. the afk pilot knows they are AFK and therefore knows they are not really a threat and thinks .. "whats the big deal?"
they dont stop you from doing anything directly - but they add a larger than normal potential risk - that may or may not be real. One can not ignore that potential threat .. so in this way it does stop you from carrying on as normal with no neut / red in system.
I understand it s a pvp game. That people should be able to project force to disrupt logitics, but normally the person projecting the force has to take a degree of risk to get the reward they desire .. in this case there is no risk, no cost to the person pursuing the goal of disrupting a systems logistics.
when a pirate is camping a gate or trolling anomales or whatever , they are risking their ship, their mods, rigs, pod and their killboard stats for the potential gain of a kill, a loot drop and an addition to their killboard. Risk v Reward.
When a miner has a Rorq, 2 hulks and combat ship they need to keep and eye on local and intel channels and react to threats as they develope and dissipate - but there is always a risk that hostiles will get into system faster than they can evacuate to safety. Risk V Reward.
Same goes for all aspects in the game, espcially in nullsec .. with the exception of afk cloaking. No risk with great potential reward at no cost . I can see why people want to fight tooth and nail for it.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14915
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 19:13:00 -
[398] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:they are using a cloaking mechanic + afk rules (mainly that there arnt any -- many MMO log you out when you are a AFK)...
Log out mechanics can easily be over come without breaking the EULA. So they wouldn't work.
They are cloaked and AFK. How does the cloak enable them to interact with you? It can't.
So which mechanic are they using?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 19:39:00 -
[399] - Quote
obviously you will not understand my perspective -- nor I yours.
we will just keep repeating the same lines over and over and over.
you will say the afk person is not interacting with the other people in the system .. which they clearly are as they are having an effect.
and then you will ask "what mechanic they are using" -- and i guess i have idea wth you are talking about as i see quite clearly they are using a cloaking mechanic tied with an afk mechanic.
seems to me they should changed the cloaking mechanic and those people who use afk cloaking as a tool in their arsenal should just adapt. isnt hard. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14916
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 19:42:00 -
[400] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:obviously you will not understand my perspective -- nor I yours.
we will just keep repeating the same lines over and over and over.
you will say the afk person is not interacting with the other people in the system .. which they clearly are as they are having an effect.
and then you will ask "what mechanic they are using" -- and i guess i have idea wth you are talking about as i see quite clearly they are using a cloaking mechanic tied with an afk mechanic.
seems to me they should changed the cloaking mechanic and those people who use afk cloaking as a tool in their arsenal should just adapt. isnt hard. I'm trying to get back to basics. There has to be a mechanic they use whilst AFK, that enables them to interact with you. How else would you know they were there?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 19:48:00 -
[401] - Quote
:P
i see what you did there
i cant seem them changing local .. but who knows .. they did it with WH - but to do it to all of nullsec would radically alter the game -- in a way that i think would negatively impact too many players
making a rule change to change afk cloaking rules would only affect a few hundred - and really would barely affect those that do it at all. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14916
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 19:54:00 -
[402] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote::P
i see what you did there
i cant seem them changing local .. but who knows .. they did it with WH - but to do it to all of nullsec would radically alter the game -- in a way that i think would negatively impact too many players
making a rule change to change afk cloaking rules would only affect a few hundred - and really would barely affect those that do it at all. Now we know that local is the tool being used, then why not ask or suggest changes to that? You can in fact AFK without a cloak and gain the same psychological effects.
The point is, this isn't a chicken and egg situation. AFKing is a direct result of the local intel channel. As such any changes to cloaks would be a buff to intel. I personally don't think that's a balanced approach.
As far as your assertion regarding it only affecting a few hundred, I'm sorry I cannot agree. Because if you nerf cloaks without changing the intel local gives, then null becomes far too safe. One could argue it's already safer than high sec now.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Sentamon
1021
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Posted - 2013.06.07 20:27:00 -
[403] - Quote
Hi, I too want 100% safety in what are supposed to be the most dangerous systems in the game. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 20:50:00 -
[404] - Quote
now now, no need for hyperbole
changing game mechanics to allow for a cloaky thats been afk for a few hours to be messed with isnt going to make nullsec 100% safe and you all know it. -- especially when the solution is to just be active while your being cloaky. doesnt seem to be too much to ask from a player .. if you ask me. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
283
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 21:56:00 -
[405] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote::P
i see what you did there
i cant seem them changing local ..
Finally, a glimmer of hope.
Yes. It is local. You are not undocking, not because they are cloaked. You are not undocking because they are showing up in local. I be you dock up when they show in local too.
That they are in a cloaked ship is really irrelevant. You'd dock up if I showed up in 0.0 local with you (assuming we weren't blue) whether I was in a talos, a nemesis, or zealot. As soon as you saw my mug in local you'd scurry off to station, a POS, or even a safe (where you might activate your own cloak) or log off (maybe while still in warp so I'd have little time to scan you down).
Note: I'm not saying this is bad, what I'm saying is it isn't the cloak making you do these things, it is you and the fact that you can see me come into system via local.
Quote: Hi, I too want 100% safety in what are supposed to be the most dangerous systems in the game.
Interesting...are you talking about cloaks, or nerfing cloaks?
Quote:changing game mechanics to allow for a cloaky thats been afk for a few hours to be messed with isnt going to make nullsec 100% safe and you all know it.
No matter how you slice it, it is a buff to local and the intel it provides. As such it is a buff to PvE in local as well. It isn't an issue of does it make PvE in null 100% safe, it is an issue of does it make it too safe.
PvE in null is already rather safe if you know what you are doing and pay attention. Try to make the case it should be even safer, then you might have a reasonable basis for your position.
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Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 23:57:00 -
[406] - Quote
my issue is still not whether it is safe or not .. its not safe when an active hostile is in local and i love that .. to be honest i am about to log in game and i hope there is an active hostile in local - that would be more fun there being no hostile and i would have to find something productive to do instead of playing pvp for a little while.
my entire objection is with someone being able to project force by purely logging into a local cloaking and feking off for hours / all day.
camp every system in game for all i care .. but i (my opinion) is that you should not be able to do it inactively, without cost or risk to the pilot. I dont believe in giving anyone a free lunch ,, eve is supposed to be a harsh world, and by allowing people to just park their lazy asses in a system, bugger off but still have effect is wrong .. and to then point fingers at anyone who disagrees and say they are just being cry babies is laughable.
but after 10 years in eve, off and on, i am not surprised in the least bit surprised. Like i mentioned before the carebear v pvpbear debate is old as MMO gaming. and if it wasnt this issue it would be another. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force
296
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 23:59:00 -
[407] - Quote
This is still being talked about? Maybe nullseccers should shoot eachother more. Then the AFK cloakers would be better suited shooting actual targets as opposed to innocent farm peasants. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
1823
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 01:13:00 -
[408] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:This is still being talked about? Maybe nullseccers should shoot eachother more. Then the AFK cloakers would be better suited shooting actual targets as opposed to innocent farm peasants. LOL
Noone in null can be truly considered innocent. If you don't do the podding yourself, you owe your security to someone else who does.
And we blow each other up as penance, we dirty sinners all. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
286
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 07:04:00 -
[409] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:
my entire objection is with someone being able to project force by purely logging into a local cloaking and feking off for hours / all day.
Try as I might, I have not found a way to project force while cloaked, let alone cloaked and AFK. All I am doing is using an in game mechanic to make you defeat yourself....
And it isn't carebear vs. PvPer. Every PvPer out there carebears when necessary...so they can have ships to PvP in. You are trying to draw a clear distinction where none exists.
Quote:camp every system in game for all i care .. but i (my opinion) is that you should not be able to do it inactively, without cost or risk to the pilot. I dont believe in giving anyone a free lunch ,, eve is supposed to be a harsh world, and by allowing people to just park their lazy asses in a system, bugger off but still have effect is wrong .. and to then point fingers at anyone who disagrees and say they are just being cry babies is laughable.
You have nobody to blame but yourself for this. If you can't change your behavior to adapt to a different situation then that is not my problem or anyone else's. I have given you several suggestions on how to deal with this problem. Granted not having the cloaker in system is optimal, but as you say, Eve is harsh...so you should learn how to deal with sub-optimal situations...especially after 10 years (off and on). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
286
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 07:21:00 -
[410] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:How do you adapt by the way, specifically .. there is no way that i can see to adapt without making sacrifices - sacrifices the afk cloaker does not have to make.
By the way, the player who has the afk cloaker is not gaining anything. No in game resources at all. So the risk-reward seems reasonable:
Reward: nothing Risk: nothing.
Please point out the problem with the above?
And that you have to make a sacrifice...that is your complaint? Look everyone Toshiro can't optimize his ratting income! Oh noes /0\.
You have been playing this game off and on since 2004. By now you should realize that people use the mechanics of the game to disrupt your optimal behavior. People do this kind of thing all the time in the game.
Right now the CFC are very much disrupting the optimal running of TEST's activities in Fountain. People are shooting other people's POCOs and killing them and putting up their own and imposing a tax. War decs are another mechanic. Suicide ganking yet another. What can a poor freighter dude do against a 12 man fleet that wants him dead in Uedama? About as much as you can do to that AFK cloaker. But the good news for you is that AFK cloaker can't gank you like those 12 taloses will to that poor charon. |
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Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.08 13:17:00 -
[411] - Quote
if the reward was zero people would not do it . so obviously there is a reward and there is obviously an effect. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
1825
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:17:00 -
[412] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:if the reward was zero people would not do it . so obviously there is a reward and there is obviously an effect. False.
To suggest people do, or not do, things for no reward depends entirely on your perspective.
With the exception of the dreadful RMT groups, everyone playing EVE does so at a loss of either personal time or fees to play, often both. They do this in exchange for a sense of accomplishment or escape from their ordinary lives. Often a combination of these.
To deny extending this logic into the game as a next level of expression denies the logic already demonstrated.
In short, frustrating you is their reward. They cannot spend it anywhere like they would ISK, but they have no use for ISK in real life anyway, so why should this make them stop playing this way? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 14:50:00 -
[413] - Quote
you just argued my point ..
there is a reward - the frustration and negative impact (away from a base of 100% safe) to the players in the local they are afk in.
the cost to the afk person .. is almost zero, they need the ship and the skills and the trip to the location .. but once in place there is no additional cost aside from the minute max it takes to log in and engage the cloak before going afk.
the risk zero - barring some catastrophic game failure right when the pilot logs in leaving them in space without their cloak on .. allowing them to be scanned and destroyed .. but that would be petitionable.
the effect is variable, but real none the less |
Kodiii
TalCorp Enterprises Care Factor
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 15:04:00 -
[414] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:if the reward was zero people would not do it . so obviously there is a reward and there is obviously an effect. False. To suggest people do, or not do, things for no reward depends entirely on your perspective.
Well lets just get into a debate about what God really is while we're at it. As far as 99.999% of people are concerned, most people do things for a reason. Not because they can. In this case, do you really think someone sits in a system on a computer game and then proceeds to not even be present in the game in order to have fun? By that logic, your hobbies must be watching grass grow and sitting in an empty room counting to infinity.
The stubbornness and ability to shift the topic in (order to halt progress) by anti-carebears in these topics absolutely amazes me. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
1825
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 15:52:00 -
[415] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:you just argued my point ..
there is a reward - the frustration and negative impact (away from a base of 100% safe) to the players in the local they are afk in.
the cost to the afk person .. is almost zero, they need the ship and the skills and the trip to the location .. but once in place there is no additional cost aside from the minute max it takes to log in and engage the cloak before going afk.
the risk zero - barring some catastrophic game failure right when the pilot logs in leaving them in space without their cloak on .. allowing them to be scanned and destroyed .. but that would be petitionable.
the effect is variable, but real none the less And yet you just argued the existence that a cost is present, in at least equal degree to the perception of an uncertain reward.
The cost is always certain, and unavoidable if the tactic is used.
They must pay CCP for the account. (whether they do so in local currency or another does and sells them PLEX means nothing, CCP is getting paid every time) They must set up a computer, an internet connection, and have a client up to date. They must use these described elements, and connect to the server. They must navigate a character skilled enough to operate undetected. Not necessarily cloaked, although that is a popular expectation. This character must arrive in the target system. They must maintain the connection and character's online presence. Actually being present at the client system, here is a funny part.
They WANT other players to believe they are AFK, and not present to observe them in the event they expose themselves to possible interaction. The opposing players, (competition dictates this being their description), are concerned that the undetected player is in fact NOT AFK, otherwise the expectation of possible harm would defy logic. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Ex Cinere Scriptor
1825
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:00:00 -
[416] - Quote
Kodiii wrote:The stubbornness and ability to shift the topic in (order to halt progress) by anti-carebears in these topics absolutely amazes me. I am a miner.
I am still pro explosion of ships, since that is in my best interest. Specifically, the explosion of mining ships belonging to competing players who would sell their ore and ice in the same end market as mine.
I must expect that your play style is invested in a manner more vulnerable to risk than mine, since I clearly advocate the increase of said risk while you seek to reduce it.
So, I wonder, which of us belongs in null, and which in a region described with intended lower risk? Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1361
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 16:47:00 -
[417] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote:E-2C Hawkeye wrote:So how is afk cloaking and different than afk mining and why shouldnt it be changed like mining? AFK Mining results in in game resources being generated and put into your cargo hold which can be sold/used for profit "AFK Cloaking" produces nothing. You gain nothing. Why are you rallying so hard against "AFK Cloakers" but not people who sit in their pos afk, or in their station afk? in player controlled null sec if a neut or red is in your station that would be cause for concern .. same goes for one of your POSs. but in both case i can watch them, and I know where they are and therefore where they are not. i can keep on eye on them docked or at a POS . and will know when they change from being innactive to active. 1 mbr of the blues can be tasked to carry out the task of watching them and egt the warning out when they returned to being active. Once would also be to see what they are flying at the POS, or watch undock. This is not the same with AFK cloakers. and i would counter the notion that AFK cloakers do not produce or gain anything .. they produce fear and gain a free disruption of local logisitcs and isk making - for almost no cost to the cloaker.
They are physically incapable of disrupting logistics and pve activities. As for them gaining "free" disruption of local, well thats balanced by the free intel local gives you. You get free info regarding how many pilots are in system and who they are, they get the chance - and its only a chance, mind you - to make you not trust that list. Why should YOU get free, easy, benefits for no trade off?
Also can we drop the "AFK" part because it is irrelevant, AFK players are meaningless entities. What you REALLY mean by AFK is "potential threat". You only say AFK because saying "CCP get rid of AFK cloakies" isn't as obviously stupid as "CCP get rid of potential threats" |
Theodore Giumbix
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.06.08 16:51:00 -
[418] - Quote
DEATH TO AFK CLOAKY ALTS The Tek - a show that covers hardware, pc games, indie games, legal policies that pertain to technology, the internet, and nerd culture. Please sign: Disabling the clouds in anomalies/signatures/missions |
Toshiro Hasegawa
The Circus Corp Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2013.06.08 17:03:00 -
[419] - Quote
no its is the afk guys .. sorry i dont fit into your arguement
i like active cloakies .. you can do stuff with them .. you know they are active so you know you have to do something about them
the afk guys on the other hand i have to treat them like they are active when they probably are not .. so i have to add ships to different roles, post more guards, change loadouts - unlike normal threats - where detection and early warning come into play.
when my corp is mining - i often am down the pipe - watching local for imb threats .. if a hostile moves to our loc - we can adjust ahead of time, move to pvp ships and get ready for a fight .
but the hostiles dont want a fight - all they want is a gank .. and will protect the game mechanics that protect their ability to kill miners and pve ships so they can boos their kilkboard and feel good about themselves by ruining someones day. Eve would be alot less fun without people trying to ruin your day, but that doesnt mean we need to always make it easy.
now grav sites dont need to be scanned .. chalk one point up for the pvpVpve crowd. Probably hear some miners grumble about it, but for the most part . just means adapting a little .. intel becomes more important - as well as contingencies.
But this is different to dealing with an AFK cloaky. who can cause a huge impact with no cost the player or pilot with no risk incurred. All we want is a recorse to the afk cloaker .. so we have a sense that if we desire we have a way to counter them, other that to just pretend its an active threat in local. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1362
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Posted - 2013.06.08 17:04:00 -
[420] - Quote
Toshiro Hasegawa wrote:my issue is still not whether it is safe or not .. its not safe when an active hostile is in local and i love that .. to be honest i am about to log in game and i hope there is an active hostile in local - that would be more fun there being no hostile and i would have to find something productive to do instead of playing pvp for a little while.
my entire objection is with someone being able to project force by purely logging into a local cloaking and feking off for hours / all day.
camp every system in game for all i care .. but i (my opinion) is that you should not be able to do it inactively, without cost or risk to the pilot. I dont believe in giving anyone a free lunch ,, eve is supposed to be a harsh world, and by allowing people to just park their lazy asses in a system, bugger off but still have effect is wrong .. and to then point fingers at anyone who disagrees and say they are just being cry babies is laughable.
but after 10 years in eve, off and on, i am not surprised in the least bit surprised. Like i mentioned before the carebear v pvpbear debate is old as MMO gaming. and if it wasnt this issue it would be another.
If you want to deny cloakers this effect, then don't dock/pos up and cower in fear. Continue on your merry way. Maybe adjust what you're doing slightly to mitigate the risk.
It's funny you should mention risk yourself, since the reason for your position, for the countless cloak tear threads, is purely a result of people like you wanting to REMOVE potential risk to yourself.
You do not like the fact that someone else in local represents a threat. You want CCP to either remove the threat entirely, or to at least grant you absolute certainty of when and where a threat exists.
The only reason people latch onto the "AFK" aspect of it (other than to try and make their complaints sound less fatuous, as I mentioned earlier) is because AFK players are indistinguishable from active players, and active players are a potential threat.
Every single suggestion proposed either: Removes the uncertainty regarding AFK players somehow (log out timers, afk tag, etc) leaving only people who you know for certain are a threat, or punishes or limits the active threats (fuel usage, decloaking mods/probes, etc)
Lets be honest, next time you think of making one of these threads, or posting in an existing one, title it "I want removal of risk and uncertainty in nullsec"
We'll get a lot further if we start from a place of honesty |
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