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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2013.03.29 10:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
As has been stated ad nauseum: SOV still relies heavily on hisec for its supplies. By using JFs from Jita they are able to resupply quickly their needs.
If jump drives no longer work outside of nulsec, any empire-sourced materials would need to be freighted to nulsec before jumping to sov space. This journey would give ample opportunity for strikes on the freighters.
It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.
The transport alts could form a corporation with a combat wing for escort. This corporation would almost certainly be 'discovered' and wardecked. I'm sure empire corporations would appear, dedicated to attacking sov-aligned corporations on 'their patch'. Sov would need to respond by coming into empire space, if they wished to retain the empire-sov caravan.
The effect on the empire economy might be less buyers for the market goods as the sov alliances move more to making their own stuff. It would make more targets available in nulsec; manufacturing assets would become more valuable. The attitudes of sov posters in the forums implies this is unlikely, however. Loss of face, and all that. "Driven out of empire space?"
So it's more likely there will be increased action defending caravans, and this would provide new opportunities for manufacturers.
In short: this simple change to the game can facilitate PvP as well as instigating warfare between the empire and sov alliances. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
429
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Posted - 2013.03.29 12:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Do to encourage industry in null, you want to screw up supply lines to high and low sec? You don't think this would be more likely to drive people back to highsec where production is much easier and safer?
Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
166
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Posted - 2013.03.29 12:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
increased oppertunities for PvP are created when it get's more intresting to do stuff not less.
Faction War revamp, has it's troubles but since there is money to be made in FW the population in low sec has been exploding, and that increases the oppertunities for PvP.
Not turning travel to a monthly allinace blob that travels to low.
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
918
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Posted - 2013.03.29 12:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote: Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.
Yeah, then ppl unsubs their industrial alts and everybody gets to use meta 4 mods. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
13
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Posted - 2013.03.29 13:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
ITT: Increased opportunities to gank freighters without getting CONCORDed, because OP doesn't have enough friends to coordinate a highsec suicide gank. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.29 14:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Screwing up supply lines to high and lowsec? People can still freight stuff between these zones. How does no JD affect that, other than increase the risk?
Fail wrote: TT: Increased opportunities to gank freighters without getting CONCORDed, because OP doesn't have enough friends to coordinate a highsec suicide gank.
OP is a hauler; not into ganking in a badger. Fail attempt at misinterpreting what I mean.
confused wrote:Not turning travel to a monthly allinace blob that travels to low. Would need to travel the whole way between high and null if wishing to maintain complete cover for the freighters. Exposed to ganking by the empire corps.
No wonder there's a whiff of fear in these responses. I must be onto something.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Pan Dora
Stardust Enterprises
9
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Posted - 2013.03.29 14:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote: Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.
Yeah, then ppl unsubs their industrial alts and everybody gets to use meta 4 mods.
Rather people moving their industrial alts to null.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
35
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Posted - 2013.03.29 14:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:As has been stated ad nauseum: SOV still relies heavily on hisec for its supplies. By using JFs from Jita they are able to resupply quickly their needs.
If jump drives no longer work outside of nulsec, any empire-sourced materials would need to be freighted to nulsec before jumping to sov space. This journey would give ample opportunity for strikes on the freighters.
It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.
Why not? Null corps could still use NPC alts, it would be harder, but it could be done.
Quote:The transport alts could form a corporation with a combat wing for escort. This corporation would almost certainly be 'discovered' and wardecked. I'm sure empire corporations would appear, dedicated to attacking sov-aligned corporations on 'their patch'. Sov would need to respond by coming into empire space, if they wished to retain the empire-sov caravan.
Again, why? I don't see it. You could use a NPC alt, put him in fleet. Tell everyone not to shoot so-and-so, clear the low sec gate, JF jumps in and then Jumps several AU into "safe" null sec space.
Quote:The effect on the empire economy might be less buyers for the market goods as the sov alliances move more to making their own stuff. It would make more targets available in nulsec; manufacturing assets would become more valuable. The attitudes of sov posters in the forums implies this is unlikely, however. Loss of face, and all that. "Driven out of empire space?"
You will not get more null sec industry this way. The best way to get more null sec industry is to create incentives for null sec industry, not attempt to put in disincentives for high sec industry via nerfing logistics, because players are going to be very creative at minimizing risk, especially with an 8 billion isk JF.
Quote:So it's more likely there will be increased action defending caravans, and this would provide new opportunities for manufacturers.
Most likely result, you'll get null sec blocks setting up 100+ man anti-camps in low sec entry points, or for groups like Goons no change at all given they often perma-camp the EC-/Torrinos gate already.
Quote:In short: this simple change to the game can facilitate PvP as well as instigating warfare between the empire and sov alliances.
1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec. 2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec. 3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go. 4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
14
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Posted - 2013.03.29 15:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: OP is a hauler; not into ganking in a badger. Fail attempt at misinterpreting what I mean.
Everyone here knows exactly what you mean, Alty McAlterton. Removing the ability for JFs to jump from hisec directly to null will simply result in caravans of standard frighters and scores of gatecamps by nullsec 'pirates' protecting their new trade routes. It will not encourage industry in null and low. It will instead inconvenience everyone else all the way down to the null alliances' chosen jump points.
Then again, operating a Badger in highsec doesn't give one much perspective on what happens anywhere else, does it? |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.29 15:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:Why not? Null corps could still use NPC alts, it would be harder, but it could be done. Instead of being able to jump right out of hisec the freighter would need to make the journey through the gates to get to nulsec. Saying it would be harder is to fail to grasp the logistical nightmare ahead of the freighter.
Quote:Again, why? I don't see it. You could use a NPC alt, put him in fleet. Tell everyone not to shoot so-and-so, clear the low sec gate, JF jumps in and then Jumps several AU into "safe" null sec space. You appear to fail to understand written English; the freighter needs to move out of hisec. Fleets do not protect the freighter unless they are of the same corp, so that changes nothing.
Quote:You will not get more null sec industry this way. If you bother to read the title of this topic it isn't about promoting nulsec industry.
Quote: Most likely result, you'll get null sec blocks setting up 100+ man anti-camps in low sec entry points, or for groups like Goons no change at all given they often perma-camp the EC-/Torrinos gate already.
How is that helping the freighter in its journey through hisec? Your attempt to confuse the topic being discussed has failed.
Quote: 1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec. 2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec. 3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go. 4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable.
- Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
- There was never any competition between sov and empire markets so this is also false.
- This is promoting PvP between empire and sov so I think it's most certainly the way to go.
- They are already viable. Players in sov would rather shoot stuff than create it. Fine! The price you pay is the empire alliances waiting to pick you off when you come into their space. Similar to how sov alliances attack anyone coming into their space.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
13
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Posted - 2013.03.29 15:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
This would just serve to eliminate most travel of freighters into null. There is no way in hell you can convince me to fly a freighter outside of high sec and I doubt frog would do it either so you just cut off null sec. Also, I think you forgot the unintended consequence of not allowing capitals in low sec. If jump freighters can't jump, why can caps? |
Jacid
Sacrificial Lambs The Devil's Warrior Alliance
19
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Posted - 2013.03.29 16:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think the poster has identified some problems facing eve however i don't think the ability of one sov null alliance to strike at another is the problem. Null industry is pointless atm, null sec only exporting PI, high end minerals and moon goos. If you want to solve the issue with null industry the only solution is to make finished products that can only be built in null either through large volume inputs only produced in null making it cost prohibitive to move the raw materials to HS or sov mechanics limiting the building of certain items to sov owned space like supercap construction. Neither solution would harm high sec industry and would add to the overall game.
My 2 Cents |
De'Veldrin
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
1237
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 16:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: No wonder there's a whiff of fear in these responses. I must be onto something.
That's not fear, that's disbelief that anyone can be this clueless. Malcanis for CSM 8
Eve Online: The full-contact sport for your brain. Twitter --á@DeVeldrin |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1804
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 16:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
LOL
You also forget that carriers, dreads and supercaps all use jump drives too, but cannot use gates. Or were you intending that they just all get evicted from lowsec to some random null system and never go back?
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
41
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Posted - 2013.03.29 16:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
There's two issues, that I see myself. The distance of a single jump, that makes it pointless to hold small area of , null space, and the overall inefficiency of industry in null.I have no idea, what part of a brain CCP used to put intentionally prohibitive coefficients to POS refining and a |
Neal Altol
desolate fools
2
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Posted - 2013.03.29 19:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
[quote=Mikhael Taron]Quote:Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
For high sec it would be in an npc corp there it will be invulnerable to wardecs. At no point would the freighter alt not be in a NPC corp. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
38
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Posted - 2013.03.29 19:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: You appear to fail to understand written English; the freighter needs to move out of hisec. Fleets do not protect the freighter unless they are of the same corp, so that changes nothing.
OK, you want to be a **** about this? Fine, so you include low sec. What about other jump capable ships? How come they can jump into and out of low sec?
Did you think about that? No? Why not idiot?
Quote: If you bother to read the title of this topic it isn't about promoting nulsec industry.
Great, so we'll get even less. Brilliant.
Quote:Quote: 1. There is no existing mechanic for a war between the high sec empires and null sec. 2. Economic PVP has been won hands down by high sec. 3. Making it harder to use high sec's awesome economic capabilities is the wrong way to go. 4. Make the economic capabilities of null sec more viable.
- Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
- There was never any competition between sov and empire markets so this is also false.
- This is promoting PvP between empire and sov so I think it's most certainly the way to go.
- They are already viable. Players in sov would rather shoot stuff than create it. Fine! The price you pay is the empire alliances waiting to pick you off when you come into their space. Similar to how sov alliances attack anyone coming into their space.
The next time you want to go off on people's reading abilities McDouche Taron make sure you yourself have it trained to level 5.
I wrote that there is no way for null sec to have a war with high sec empires...the latter would be the Amarr Empire, the Gallenete Federation, the Minmatar Republic, and the Caldari Empire.
You wont promote PvP this way. People are not going to just feed you or anyone else easy kills. Nobody is going to say, "Woot convoy duty!!!" People will avoid providing easy kills and boring stuff. As such you'll most likely turn null into even more of a Ghost Town...except for some alliances that have high-sec/null sec entry points such as EC-/Torrinos.
And have you looked at how combat mechanics work in this game? It is entirely possible that those pilots after these freighters can warp in and alpha them well before their convoy does jack **** about it. People have been ganking freighters in high sec where the response is ****ing Concord and guess what, freighters still die.
So no. This is a stupid idea. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 19:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jacid wrote:I think the poster has identified some problems facing eve however i don't think the ability of one sov null alliance to strike at another is the problem. Null industry is pointless atm, null sec only exporting PI, high end minerals and moon goos. If you want to solve the issue with null industry the only solution is to make finished products that can only be built in null either through large volume inputs only produced in null making it cost prohibitive to move the raw materials to HS or sov mechanics limiting the building of certain items to sov owned space like supercap construction. Neither solution would harm high sec industry and would add to the overall game.
My 2 Cents
Since you can't jump into or out low sec, moving stuff from null to empire is also going to be a problem too. Nobody is going to run freighters full of moon goo, or tech2 components in freighters through low sec. Killing a freighter is just too damn easy in high sec, in low sec it would be laughably easy.
The only way to do it would be for a really, really big alliance to lock down the low sec route from beginning to end, and even then there are ways around that (e.g. a fleet of 150 logs out in system and leave a lone cloaked scout there to watch, everybody logs in and then warps in on the hapless freighter and boom...billions gone).
Right now, there is a symbiotic relationship between null and high sec. Granted it isn't great since this relationship is one reason why null sec is often so empty. But this idea breaks that relationship and replaces it with nothing.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.30 09:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote: No wonder there's a whiff of fear in these responses. I must be onto something.
That's not fear, that's disbelief that anyone can be this clueless.
Can't think of anything to say so just make noise? Yeah, that's fear. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.30 09:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:LOL
You also forget that carriers, dreads and supercaps all use jump drives too, but cannot use gates. Or were you intending that they just all get evicted from lowsec to some random null system and never go back?
"LOL"? You on medication?
Also, your deranged belief that you can read my mind is truly disturbing. I had not forgotten other ships use JD. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.30 09:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Neal Altol wrote:[quote=Mikhael Taron] Quote:Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
For high sec it would be in an npc corp there it will be invulnerable to wardecs. At no point would the freighter alt not be in a NPC corp.
Correct. As I stated: being in a fleet would give no protection to the freighter. That's a looong journey to losec. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 09:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: OK, you want to be a **** about this? Fine, so you include low sec. What about other jump capable ships? How come they can jump into and out of low sec?
Did you think about that? No? Why not idiot?
Now where did I resort to personal insults? Please control yourself. If you read what I wrote, I said "JD work only in nulsec". It's the title of this topic, so naturally it includes losec.
Teckos Pech wrote:Quote: If you bother to read the title of this topic it isn't about promoting nulsec industry.
Great, so we'll get even less. Brilliant.
No, sov will need to become more self-sufficient that it currently is. That's not the same as killing industry, which this won't do.
Quote:
- Any alliance can wardec any alliance so this assertion is false.
- There was never any competition between sov and empire markets so this is also false.
- This is promoting PvP between empire and sov so I think it's most certainly the way to go.
- They are already viable. Players in sov would rather shoot stuff than create it. Fine! The price you pay is the empire alliances waiting to pick you off when you come into their space. Similar to how sov alliances attack anyone coming into their space.
The next time you want to go off on people's reading abilities McDouche Taron make sure you yourself have it trained to level 5.
More insults. McDouche?!? Please control yourself.
I wrote that there is no way for null sec to have a war with high sec empires...the latter would be the Amarr Empire, the Gallenete Federation, the Minmatar Republic, and the Caldari Empire.
As such you'll most likely turn null into even more of a Ghost Town...except for some alliances that have high-sec/null sec entry points such as EC-/Torrinos.
Naturally you did, in a fail attempt to divert the topic away from the spectre of empire alliances wardecking those from sov. Naturally I worded things to stay on topic. You have again failed.
If nul becomes "even more of a ghost town" that would be an incentive for the smaller alliances to try their luck and move out there. They would have the logistics and be forewarned of the industrial requirements. the current alliances would have failed because, as you say, they won't involve themselves in self-sufficiency and will fail as a result. This can be only good for the game as a whole. Maybe not so much for those who currently hold sov space, but that's not a game-wide problem.
Teckos Pech wrote: And have you looked at how combat mechanics work in this game? It is entirely possible that those pilots after these freighters can warp in and alpha them well before their convoy does jack **** about it. People have been ganking freighters in high sec where the response is ****ing Concord and guess what, freighters still die.
So no. This is a stupid idea.
Correct, which is why these NPC-corp alts could not function; they would need to be in a player corp to enable the fleet to render assistance in the event of an attack. I'm glad you are starting to get a grasp of game mechanics. You have promise. Please continue posting. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
40
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Posted - 2013.03.30 13:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ok, you are just trolling. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1805
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 14:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:War Kitten wrote:LOL
You also forget that carriers, dreads and supercaps all use jump drives too, but cannot use gates. Or were you intending that they just all get evicted from lowsec to some random null system and never go back?
"LOL"? You on medication? Also, your deranged belief that you can read my mind is truly disturbing. I had not forgotten other ships use JD.
Yes, LOL. An indication that I was laughing at your OP and the half-baked laughable idea.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
40
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Posted - 2013.03.30 16:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
You have been insulting people in this thread right from the start. Changing their names to things like "confused" and "fail". You have been insulting people's intelligence. And implying they are on medication for pointing to other problems (e.g. capitals that spend almost all their time in low sec). So spare us the faux indignation.
Quote:If nul becomes "even more of a ghost town" that would be an incentive for the smaller alliances to try their luck and move out there. They would have the logistics and be forewarned of the industrial requirements. the current alliances would have failed because, as you say, they won't involve themselves in self-sufficiency and will fail as a result. This can be only good for the game as a whole. Maybe not so much for those who currently hold sov space, but that's not a game-wide problem.
No, because if big alliances with lots of pilots can't get their stuff in and out of null, smaller alliances will have even more trouble. And, they would have the same logistical nightmares of the bigger alliances with even less resources (read pilots) to deal with them. And are going to be even less reluctant to feed easy kills to those in low sec. They wont have the resources to handle losses of a couple of jump freighters.
Quote:Correct, which is why these NPC-corp alts could not function; they would need to be in a player corp to enable the fleet to render assistance in the event of an attack
Yes NPC-corp alts would function just fine. They can be in an NPC corp and still join the fleet and get all the benefits of being in fleet...what few there are. And even if they were in the same corp they would be just as susceptible to alpha strikes as when they are in and NPC corp.
When you wrote:
Quote:As I stated: being in a fleet would give no protection to the freighter.
That is actually about the only thing you have written that is correct...but it also means you wont see the freighter convoys you are talking about.
And here is an alternate scenario to your "smaller alliances might move to null" you'll get even fewer super coalitions. As I already noted Goons and the CFC have the EC-/Torrinos entry to null, Torrinos is high sec, EC- null. And goons already camp EC- fairly regularly...so the JF warps to the EC- gate jumps in, then jumps to VFK. Samething for moving null sec supplied goods (PI and tech 2 components). So the CFC would not be bothered too much. And TEST/HBC would probably be okay too using Efah/3-F. Granted Efah is low sec, but it is one system so very doable for a coalition the size of the HBC. And they have Keberz/HED entry point as well.
The South East and Eastern portions of null might have issues and could end up falling to TEST/HBC/CFC or some other super-coalition eventually since there isn't a high sec/null sec entry point (that I can see, haven't spent much time down there). And NPC null like Stain and Venal? Nobody will live there anymore other than the surrounding null sec coalition members. Currently 401k is basing out of Venal and hitting goons, but with no way of doing logistics from empire to Venal, they would be...well screwed. Can't evac their supers, titans, carriers and dreads to low sec and they can't jump to any surrounding sov space. NPC Delve...it would be held entirely by TEST/HBC since nobody could do logistics there anymore either.
So much of NPC null will no longer be home to alliances like 401k, Black Legion nor could they be used effectively as staging systems for invasions (e.g. IT used Fountain core for its invasion, NPC Delve is often the staging point for wars/invasions of Delve, similarly the the NPC space in Pure Blind). This could very well make null sec even more stagnant and dominated by just a handful of giant coalitions...much like the Chinese server.
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/VeriteChina/Cinfluence.png |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.31 12:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
War Kitten wrote: Yes, LOL. An indication that I was laughing at your OP and the half-baked laughable idea.
An assertion lacking any rational argument as to why it's half-baked laughable idea. The hallmark of someone who can't dispute something he wishes to fault. My idea scares you, doesn't it? You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2013.03.31 13:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Teckos Pech - You have been insulting people in this thread right from the start. Changing their names to things like "confused" and "fail". You have been insulting people's intelligence. And implying they are on medication for pointing to other problems (e.g. capitals that spend almost all their time in low sec). So spare us the faux indignation.
Can see nowhere any sign of indignation, French-word or otherwise. "lol" is hardly a rational statement, merely an attempt to ridicule something due to the poster's inability to form a rational argument against it. Capitals will not be in losec. Hardly a problem.
No, because if big alliances with lots of pilots can't get their stuff in and out of null, smaller alliances will have even more trouble. And, they would have the same logistical nightmares of the bigger alliances with even less resources (read pilots) to deal with them. And are going to be even less reluctant to feed easy kills to those in low sec. They wont have the resources to handle losses of a couple of jump freighters.
Yes, because if big alliances with lots of pilots can't be bothered to gear up their industry or provide a caravan out of empire, smaller alliances will have even more opportunity to claim their piece of sov as the current occupiers wither due to lack of armaments. And, they would have less of the logistical nightmares of the bigger alliances as they will be geared-up to produce their own stuff, reducing their dependence on empire. And are going to be less likely to feed easy kills to those in low sec. They will have already the resources, avoiding losses of jump freighters.
Yes NPC-corp alts would function just fine. They can be in an NPC corp and still join the fleet and get all the benefits of being in fleet...what few there are. And even if they were in the same corp they would be just as susceptible to alpha strikes as when they are in and NPC corp.
NPC-corp alts could not receive protection from a fleet, whereas a corp fleet can ewar the attackers and protect the freighter for concord to act. If you think freighters are often brought down with alpha-strikes you are mistaken. Only an exorbitantly high value cargo will bring out enough DPS to do that.
When you wrote:
Quote:As I stated: being in a fleet would give no protection to the freighter.
That is actually about the only thing you have written that is correct...but it also means you wont see the freighter convoys you are talking about.
No, it means you won't see convoys of NPC-alts. Those in a player corp would be more than viable, but that's a wardec target. More chance for PvP, which Is after all the title of this topic.
And here is an alternate scenario to your "smaller alliances might move to null" you'll get even fewer super coalitions. As I already noted Goons and the CFC have the EC-/Torrinos entry to null, Torrinos is high sec, EC- null. And goons already camp EC- fairly regularly...so the JF warps to the EC- gate jumps in, then jumps to VFK. Samething for moving null sec supplied goods (PI and tech 2 components). So the CFC would not be bothered too much. And TEST/HBC would probably be okay too using Efah/3-F. Granted Efah is low sec, but it is one system so very doable for a coalition the size of the HBC. And they have Keberz/HED entry point as well.
The JF needs to get through hisec, so there's the risk. Also your scenario brings inter-alliance warfare into empire space, which fulfils the thinking behind this idea: Increased opportunities for PvP.
The South East and Eastern portions of null might have issues and could end up falling to TEST/HBC/CFC or some other super-coalition eventually since there isn't a high sec/null sec entry point (that I can see, haven't spent much time down there). And NPC null like Stain and Venal? Nobody will live there anymore other than the surrounding null sec coalition members. Currently 401k is basing out of Venal and hitting goons, but with no way of doing logistics from empire to Venal, they would be...well screwed. Can't evac their supers, titans, carriers and dreads to low sec and they can't jump to any surrounding sov space. NPC Delve...it would be held entirely by TEST/HBC since nobody could do logistics there anymore either.
If they all in the same boat, how do some fail and not others?Your comment regarding Stain and Venal is another assertion lacking any reason. Logistics can still be done, the gates work fine. You appear to be under the impression that freighters can now not use gates, nor capitals use JD in nul. This has not been said.
So much of NPC null will no longer be home to alliances like 401k, Black Legion nor could they be used effectively as staging systems for invasions (e.g. IT used Fountain core for its invasion, NPC Delve is often the staging point for wars/invasions of Delve, similarly the the NPC space in Pure Blind). This could very well make null sec even more stagnant and dominated by just a handful of giant coalitions...much like the Chinese server.
Again, many assertion lacking reason to back them.
Correct me if I misunderstand the basis for all this stuff, but I get the impression that this will make maintaining hold of sov space harder for the incumbent, provide more hope for new alliances to grab a slice, increase the chances for PvP and for some personal reason you TRULY want this NOT to happen.
Fair enough, but your assertions don't in any way show me that it's a bad idea for the game.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
79
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 15:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:snip to save room
1: You have been insulting people this entire thread, you should feel ashamed of yourself. I honestly don't care if you insult me, just makes you look like a child and makes me laugh.
2: I honestly don't think you understand basic logistics. If a big alliance has the inability to gear up for your...'convoys' that you so envision, who in the hell right mind will make you think that smaller alliances will have this ability?
3: And you are mistaken if you believe that people will kill your freighter just cause you have high value cargo, if they find out that your JF for a corp, and seeing the cost of JFs are through the roof. Destroying their supply chain is a great way to cripple a smaller alliance, The lost of one JF will not only set them back a few billion for a new frieghter, but it will also set them back in time, and people's willing to do said job.
4:I thought this was a change to low sec, not empire corps
5: You won't see any Frieghter convoys at all because when the hostile spots the freighter their first target will be that, they can worry about everything else later. You my friend need to actually get into a JF so you know how it works before making a suggestion like this.
6:If you wish to increase opportunities for pvp, then you should, as people been stating, create incentives. You might want to look this word up, but I will give you a run down. When you create a incentive on something, that means more people are willing to throw their lives to the grinder if that means that they have a good chance of make hell-ova lot of money...Your idea in it current form is what we call a disincentive which is the opposite of a incentive.
7: You asking how some fail and others do not, but you are making a question based on a the current system to back your new system. That's called generating proof from a non-existing situation. I see people do it all the time in my English 101 class, I do it sometimes to but...When you use that system you have very little support to back your claim.
8: I will quote myself right now for this one: If it makes it that much harder for bigger alliances to hold sov, who have manpower and the isk to support it, who in their right mind will think a smaller alliance, with less manpower and isk would be able to hold a sov point? |
Whisperen
Handsome Millionaire Playboys RISE of LEGION
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 16:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sounds good +1 |
Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
483
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 17:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Posting in a "Capitals and super capitals shouldn't be allowed in lowsec anymore, and all the capital builders in lowsec shouldnt be able to build capitals anymore" thread.
This is without a doubt, the STUPIDEST idea I've read since James 315 proposed to get everyone out of highsec by deleting (almost) all highsec content. |
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 18:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
DataRunner Attor wrote:--) not worth quoting (-- You also fail to read what has been written. The alliances wishing to move to nul wouldn't convoy because they would set up their industry in nulsec, self-sufficiency would be the norm for them. It would be viable because the current alliances deem it beneath them to do this, else there would not be such a reliance on empire space for their armaments. This could lead to a resurgence of industry in nulsec. However, what would be more likely is a withering of these mega-coalitions as they become progressively starved of resources.
You and others have fixated on your need to freight out to nulsec before jumping. This is necessary only if you insist on using empire resources to maintain your nulsec presence. That's your choice. Choose that path and be subject to increased logistics problems and attacks. Choose to wither and others will smell blood and move out to sov. The game won't suffer, only those unwilling to adapt.
I understand you wish to maintain the status quo and my proposal would weaken the stranglehold the incumbents have on sov space. However, your wishes are no more viable than anyone else's and calling my idea stupid, as some have done, is hardly conducive to reasoning.
At least you avoided The Lol. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 21:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Okay, I'm bored so I'll throw in my 2 cents worth:
Jump Drives can only be activated in 0.4 space and under.
Ship must be at least 100km from any structure to activate the jump drive. If cap level is under 75%, additional power is taken from Shield / Armour / Hull
20 second timer from activation til jump drive initiates
Cynos must be deployed at least 100km from any structure
So here come the tears:
If you jump & you're taking damage / have zero cap, Expect a high chance of arriving and watching your ship explode
Yeah but there's a higher chance of getting jumped being that far from the station / POS - Boo Hoo, this ain't Carebears online. Welcome to Low sec / Null sec. Enjoy your stay
Workable? Probably not but the tears it would bring... PRICELESS
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Mithril Ryder
Genstar Inc Villore Accords
18
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 23:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
175
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 00:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Please, be reasonable. Any goon would be a better troll than this.
He might be the real deal. An honest-to-god hauler with no sense of the game mechanics, group psychology or game design. Don't rule out the possibility just yet. |
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 00:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
This is a very bad idea and OP should feel bad about himself/herself. Also biomass your char and go back to WoW but before thattell us on the pod where the bad jump frieghter touched you. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4480
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 01:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Despite what you may have heard, Goons don't want to ruin the game and sit in their space with absolutely no conflict (which is essentially what this proposal would cause). That would be incredibly boring. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 05:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt.
Don't be so sure. I have found that Goons actually have good ideas for the game in general, not just for Goons. I know, its shocking and you can say I'm just a lick spittle for the Goons, but I think this is a reasonable view of Goons.
Of course Goons like making life in Eve miserable for everyone else, but so what....Goons make an awesome space villain and if that drives some content...v0v (and this is coming from somebody who used to shoot Goons...for whatever that is worth).
The OP on the other hand just doesn't seem to grasp basic mechanics. A 150 man fleet of tornados with T2 guns should be able to do over 1 million damage in their first shot. That is more than enough to kill a JF.
This idea is beyond dumb. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 07:44:00 -
[38] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Don't be so sure. I have found that Goons actually have good ideas for the game in general, not just for Goons. I know, its shocking and you can say I'm just a lick spittle for the Goons, but I think this is a reasonable view of Goons. Of course Goons like making life in Eve miserable for everyone else, but so what....Goons make an awesome space villain and if that drives some content...v0v (and this is coming from somebody who used to shoot Goons...for whatever that is worth). The OP on the other hand just doesn't seem to grasp basic mechanics. A 150 man fleet of tornados with T2 guns should be able to do over 1 million damage in their first shot. That is more than enough to kill a JF. This idea is beyond dumb.
You just don't seem to grasp basic mechanics. A 150 man fleet of tornados with T2 guns should, at current jita prices, cost nearly 11B isk. That is more than the value of a JF and not worth doing.
This idea is beyond dumb. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 07:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Please, be reasonable. Any goon would be a better troll than this. He might be the real deal. An honest-to-god hauler with no sense of the game mechanics, group psychology or game design. Don't rule out the possibility just yet.
I bow before your superior intellect. Splendidly aloof. When you're ready to contribute please begin. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 07:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ryuu Shi wrote:This is a very bad idea and OP should feel bad about himself/herself. Also biomass your char and go back to WoW but before thattell us on the pod where the bad jump frieghter touched you.
I wondered when someone would bring up WoW. People do that because they believe those reading the comment will assume the writer has some type of higher status. It's also a poor substitute for reasoned prose. Do please continue. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
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Arronicus
Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective
486
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 07:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Despite what you may have heard, Goons don't want to ruin the game and sit in their space with absolutely no conflict (which is essentially what this proposal would cause). That would be incredibly boring.
This change would stand to significantly benefit goons though. Any alliance that didnt have a direct highsec to 0.0 stargate would stand to suffer massively from this change, so overall goons would be more powerful. And isnt tat the goal? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1806
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:War Kitten wrote: Yes, LOL. An indication that I was laughing at your OP and the half-baked laughable idea.
An assertion lacking any rational argument as to why it's half-baked laughable idea. The hallmark of someone who can't dispute something he wishes to fault. My idea scares you, doesn't it?
You ignored the argument, try to pay attention. It's your thread after-all.
Your half-baked idea didn't address any jump capable ships other than jump freighters. Technically that's less than half-baked since there are so many.
You may or may not have addressed them since, but since you're just a pedant with time to kill and poor ideas, I'm not bothering to follow the thread very closely.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Merolis
Stop Sneezing Glitter
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 09:38:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:
Yes NPC-corp alts would function just fine. They can be in an NPC corp and still join the fleet and get all the benefits of being in fleet...what few there are. And even if they were in the same corp they would be just as susceptible to alpha strikes as when they are in and NPC corp.
NPC-corp alts could not receive protection from a fleet, whereas a corp fleet can ewar the attackers and protect the freighter for concord to act. If you think freighters are often brought down with alpha-strikes you are mistaken. Only an exorbitantly high value cargo will bring out enough DPS to do that.
NPC Alts for freighters would still be used, aside from losing the ability to freely web a freighter for instawarps, anyone who tries to gank the freighter is free fire to EVERYONE and i dont remember CCP ninja fixing NEUTRAL logi in the last couple of days. Also over this weekend 14 (reported on Eve kill) freighters were ganked in high sec, alot of them were swarmed with destroyers so i think your cost estimate for a gank is off too. Also it would only around 40 tornados to alpha a JF.
Also the points others have made about small alliances suffering is incredibly STRONG, if a large alliance would have trouble with this change a small one would have no chance. Other than HED and EC- all other JFs would have to trouble low-sec in a fleet and then jump into null, be bumped out of the almost guaranteed entrance system bubbles, and then jump to the cyno in their system most likely through a midpoint because all the empire hugging systems will be taken. All in all that JF is dead it will very likely die somewhere and the loss would be game-ending to a small alliance a 7-8bill jf + its 2-3bill cargo.
So yes a lot more ships will die but youGÇÖll most likely end all small scale 0.0 alliances.
|
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
176
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 10:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Alphea Abbra wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Please, be reasonable. Any goon would be a better troll than this. He might be the real deal. An honest-to-god hauler with no sense of the game mechanics, group psychology or game design. Don't rule out the possibility just yet. I bow before your superior intellect. Splendidly aloof. When you're ready to contribute please begin. I did with that post, so don't worry. For the record, I meant "group mechanics" instead of "group psychology". Group mechanics has a broader scope.
For the rest of your "proposal", I'm just going to say that which can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and so far you have presented neither evidence, an argument, nor anything else that could look, walk and quack like a coherent idea. When you do so, I am sure those already debunking your idea will reply to your points (They can't right now, since you haven't made any). |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
435
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 12:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote: Making null more profitable for industry than highsec would achieve your goal much better. Screwing the supply lines would not.
Yeah, then ppl unsubs their industrial alts and everybody gets to use meta 4 mods. Last I checked, this game is about risk vs reward. As far as I am concerned, that measn the areas of most risk should reap the highest rewards.
Low sec is more dangerous than Null right now. Fix that and make null less safe and you get a reasonably scaled gradient, the lower the sec status, the more riskier it is. The riskier it is, the higher the rewards.
If people signed up to EVE to become space rich without leaving highsec, they should unsub. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
84
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 14:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:~Snip, and seeing we are going into name calling~
I actually have been following this thread quite closely, and fully understand that you are the one that is supporting this horrible idea. I also find it funny that this character of your's is 5 months old and still stuck in the NPC corps, so that flags to me that you don't have any low sec or null sec experience, or this is your Alt, and you still don't have any low sec or null sec experience, nor have you ever done corp logistics.
You also have this very annoying habit of using insults to people to dodge the argument they provide. I think 3 or 4 of the post, you actually responded to SOME of the argument but you dodge the stuff you couldn't respond to by insulting us. This my friend is not a great way to get your idea reviewed by CCP, seeing you need to have large player base supporting your idea, and if you insult the player base...Well people are just going to start hating on your ideas just cause you are an *******.
If you actually gave use a reasonable argument instead of insulting us...And actually done some research... Like talking to a large/small alliance logistics person to learn about how hard their job is you might actually gain some insight on why people are hating on your idea so much, and thus changing it to match or letting this one die and coming up with an entirely new idea.
I don't insult people to often, I just give them insight on how other people view them. |
0racle
Galactic Rangers R O G U E
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 16:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
tl;dr "I WANT EASIER KILLS"
If it's that important to you find out their jump routes and hit them. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
46
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 17:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:
You just don't seem to grasp basic mechanics. A 150 man fleet of tornados with T2 guns should, at current jita prices, cost nearly 11B isk. That is more than the value of a JF and not worth doing.
In low sec? What are the consequences? If they lose 10% of their fleet...even 20% it is worth it. Don't forget the contents of the freighter as well.
You said this ban on JDs would be in effect in low sec too. Why engage a freighter/JF in high sec, just wait for low sec and kill them with much less risk.
Seriously, l2p and pay attention to your own ideas.
Arronicus wrote:
This change would stand to significantly benefit goons though. Any alliance that didnt have a direct highsec to 0.0 stargate would stand to suffer massively from this change, so overall goons would be more powerful. And isnt tat the goal?
Yes, but I bet Goons would hate it.
|
Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
58
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 17:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Last I checked, this game is about risk vs reward. As far as I am concerned, that measn the areas of most risk should reap the highest rewards.
Low sec is more dangerous than Null right now. Fix that and make null less safe and you get a reasonably scaled gradient, the lower the sec status, the more riskier it is. The riskier it is, the higher the rewards.
If people signed up to EVE to become space rich without leaving highsec, they should unsub.
You talk about risk vs reward, but then you suggest slow, 6 billion isk ships with no fittings should have to traverse low and null sec. When making 'risk vs reward' arguments you can't just pile on ridiculous amounts of risk without any meaningful reward.
Before cutting the supply lines from high to null sec you have to provide the tools for industry to thrive in null sec. CCP has done a poor job of addressing this issue, and their band-aid fix is the jump freighter. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4492
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 21:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Despite what you may have heard, Goons don't want to ruin the game and sit in their space with absolutely no conflict (which is essentially what this proposal would cause). That would be incredibly boring. This change would stand to significantly benefit goons though. Any alliance that didnt have a direct highsec to 0.0 stargate would stand to suffer massively from this change, so overall goons would be more powerful. And isnt tat the goal? No, the goal is fun, and goons are for changes that make them less powerful if it makes the game more fun for them. E.g. nerfing moongoo, which they've been calling for ever since it was introduced, despite the fact that moongoo is part of why they're so powerful. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 03:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Arronicus wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Mithril Ryder wrote:Due to the level of hostility and avoiding nearly all issues brought up, plus the fact that Goons are one of the few Null entities that due to the space they hold would be the least effected, I'm guessing OP is a goon alt. Despite what you may have heard, Goons don't want to ruin the game and sit in their space with absolutely no conflict (which is essentially what this proposal would cause). That would be incredibly boring. This change would stand to significantly benefit goons though. Any alliance that didnt have a direct highsec to 0.0 stargate would stand to suffer massively from this change, so overall goons would be more powerful. And isnt tat the goal? No, the goal is fun, and goons are for changes that make them less powerful if it makes the game more fun for them. E.g. nerfing moongoo, which they've been calling for ever since it was introduced, despite the fact that moongoo is part of why they're so powerful.
Not empty quoting... |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:War Kitten wrote: Yes, LOL. An indication that I was laughing at your OP and the half-baked laughable idea.
An assertion lacking any rational argument as to why it's half-baked laughable idea. The hallmark of someone who can't dispute something he wishes to fault. My idea scares you, doesn't it? You ignored the argument, try to pay attention. It's your thread after-all. Your half-baked idea didn't address any jump capable ships other than jump freighters. Technically that's less than half-baked since there are so many. You may or may not have addressed them since, but since you're just a pedant with time to kill and poor ideas, I'm not bothering to follow the thread very closely. You have ignore the title of the topic itself, which makes no reference to JF. While being the obvious target of this change in no way have I limited it to JF. Your lack of comprehension makes any observations of yours suspect to say the least. Try to pay attention.
Half-baked idea is an assertion yet again backed by nothing. That I didn't mention any other ships wasn't necessary; JD is after all JD. Losing losec is hardly a problem for capital ships.
As for not bothering to follow the thread very closely: you seem well-informed for all that. My compliments. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
Merolis wrote: NPC Alts for freighters would still be used, aside from losing the ability to freely web a freighter for instawarps, anyone who tries to gank the freighter is free fire to EVERYONE and i dont remember CCP ninja fixing NEUTRAL logi in the last couple of days. Also over this weekend 14 (reported on Eve kill) freighters were ganked in high sec, alot of them were swarmed with destroyers so i think your cost estimate for a gank is off too. Also it would only around 40 tornados to alpha a JF.
Also the points others have made about small alliances suffering is incredibly STRONG, if a large alliance would have trouble with this change a small one would have no chance. Other than HED and EC- all other JFs would have to trouble low-sec in a fleet and then jump into null, be bumped out of the almost guaranteed entrance system bubbles, and then jump to the cyno in their system most likely through a midpoint because all the empire hugging systems will be taken. All in all that JF is dead it will very likely die somewhere and the loss would be game-ending to a small alliance a 7-8bill jf + its 2-3bill cargo.
So yes a lot more ships will die but youGÇÖll most likely end all small scale 0.0 alliances.
It wasnt my cost estimate for a gank; I merely did the sums for someone else's estimate. Please re-read the thread.
So many of these arguments are based on "empire is essential to our existence". This change would force a lot more self-sufficiency on nulsec, which would even things out. The more sov you want, the more infrastructure you'd need to support the fleets. If you can't be bothered the game will swing in favour of those who can.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote: For the rest of your "proposal", I'm just going to say that which can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and so far you have presented neither evidence, an argument, nor anything else that could look, walk and quack like a coherent idea. When you do so, I am sure those already debunking your idea will reply to your points (They can't right now, since you haven't made any).
That you choose to ignore what has been written doesn't mean it isn't there. My observation still stands. Please continue. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:In low sec? What are the consequences? If they lose 10% of their fleet...even 20% it is worth it. Don't forget the contents of the freighter as well. You said this ban on JDs would be in effect in low sec too. Why engage a freighter/JF in high sec, just wait for low sec and kill them with much less risk. Seriously, l2p and pay attention to your own ideas. The owners of the JF would obviously be waiting in losec to hit anything looking like a threat to their logistics; something they can't do in hisec, so having an obvious gank of tornadoes would be a bit suicidal.
Seriously, l2p and pay attention to what's been written. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Question for you. Despite knowing what this thread is actually about, AKA nerf everything with a jump drive.... Did you get hotdrop while you were rattting in low sec?
Did you also think about the cost of lowsec and null minerals will also increase with this change?
Did you also think about the smaller alliance? (based on the arguments going on, I have already established that as a no.)
Do you fly a jump freighter? If not, what makes you think you have greater knowledge on how logistics work then everyone else here?
Finally and not least, why do you keep ignore my post? Are my arguments that strong? And have you noticed you are the only one fighting for this idea? GÇ£Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.GÇ¥ |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: You have ignore the title of the topic itself, which makes no reference to JF.
Implicitly it certainly does. The following ships would be nerfed in low sec:
- Dreadnought,
- Carrier,
- Titan,
- Super carrier,
- Jump Freigher,
- Rorqual,
- Black Ops
The following ships will be nerfed in high sec,
- Jump Freigher,
- Black Ops
See, when you said, "jump drives wont work in empire" you were talking about the JF predominantly.
Quote:While being the obvious target of this change in no way have I limited it to JF. Your lack of comprehension makes any observations of yours suspect to say the least. Try to pay attention.
The poster did. The poster raised the issue of what will happen to jump capable ships that are currently in low sec? Will they be moved to null, and likely in extreme danger, or will they be forever trapped in some low sec system.
You constantly dodge on this one and insult like brat.
Grwo up. FFS.
Quote:Half-baked idea is an assertion yet again backed by nothing. That I didn't mention any other ships wasn't necessary; JD is after all JD. Losing losec is hardly a problem for capital ships.
But what about the ships already there? An alliance has to evac, they move to nearby low sec. With dreadnoughts, carriers, supers, everything....are they trapped, are they given one free jump out? What? Stop insulting and grow up child. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:In low sec? What are the consequences? If they lose 10% of their fleet...even 20% it is worth it. Don't forget the contents of the freighter as well. You said this ban on JDs would be in effect in low sec too. Why engage a freighter/JF in high sec, just wait for low sec and kill them with much less risk. Seriously, l2p and pay attention to your own ideas. The owners of the JF would obviously be waiting in losec to hit anything looking like a threat to their logistics; something they can't do in hisec, so having an obvious gank of tornadoes would be a bit suicidal. Seriously, l2p and pay attention to what's been written.
Have you ever been in a large scale fleet engagement?
A large fleet would have plenty of time to kill the JF. Like I said, a single fleet of tornadoes could alpha a JF three times over. Killing a JF full of "important stuff for null sec life" certainly would be worth it to a competing alliance, or just an alliance looking for ***** and giggles.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:39:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:
So many of these arguments are based on "empire is essential to our existence". This change would force a lot more self-sufficiency on nulsec, which would even things out. The more sov you want, the more infrastructure you'd need to support the fleets. If you can't be bothered the game will swing in favour of those who can.
Look at the worm squirm. First it was: "This isn't an idea to promote industry in null". Now it is when faced with arguments that this would be bad for the game. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 16:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:
So many of these arguments are based on "empire is essential to our existence". This change would force a lot more self-sufficiency on nulsec, which would even things out. The more sov you want, the more infrastructure you'd need to support the fleets. If you can't be bothered the game will swing in favour of those who can.
Look at the worm squirm. First it was: "This isn't an idea to promote industry in null". Now it is when faced with arguments that this would be bad for the game.
It still isn't. These changes would force indy on the current incumbents of sov, who have by their actions shown they are not up for it, nor to it. There will be blood in the water as they are now faced with managing their logistics in the face of heightened threats.
As for being a worm. All these arguments have not in any way diminished the validity of my suggestion. They have merely shown me how terrified the current nulsec players are of having to support themselves out there. I can see more wriggling than have engaged in myself. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 16:56:00 -
[61] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Have you ever been in a large scale fleet engagement?
A large fleet would have plenty of time to kill the JF. Like I said, a single fleet of tornadoes could alpha a JF three times over. Killing a JF full of "important stuff for null sec life" certainly would be worth it to a competing alliance, or just an alliance looking for ***** and giggles.
So you agree this will lead to Increased opportunities for PvP? Glad you're onboard. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Quote:While being the obvious target of this change in no way have I limited it to JF. Your lack of comprehension makes any observations of yours suspect to say the least. Try to pay attention. The poster did. The poster raised the issue of what will happen to jump capable ships that are currently in low sec? Will they be moved to null, and likely in extreme danger, or will they be forever trapped in some low sec system. You constantly dodge on this one and insult like brat. Grwo up. FFS. Quote:Half-baked idea is an assertion yet again backed by nothing. That I didn't mention any other ships wasn't necessary; JD is after all JD. Losing losec is hardly a problem for capital ships. But what about the ships already there? An alliance has to evac, they move to nearby low sec. With dreadnoughts, carriers, supers, everything....are they trapped, are they given one free jump out? What? Stop insulting and grow up child.
I don't dodge anything, just want to see how fixated you become on a point you believe is unassailable. This point is so trivial, but it would appear triviality is all you have to offer to this thread.
The problem of ships that can no longer function due to their location can be handled in a number of ways, not limited to your suggestion of a free jump out. Moved to the nearest nulsec. Moved to the region held by their alliance. If they are a losec corp then moved to the closest nulsec containing an NPC station. Trivial.
As for the insulting: perhaps you can go back up the thread and notice who started the lolling and the "dumb" comments. Let me know what you find, uncle. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
54
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:40:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:
So many of these arguments are based on "empire is essential to our existence". This change would force a lot more self-sufficiency on nulsec, which would even things out. The more sov you want, the more infrastructure you'd need to support the fleets. If you can't be bothered the game will swing in favour of those who can.
Look at the worm squirm. First it was: "This isn't an idea to promote industry in null". Now it is when faced with arguments that this would be bad for the game. It still isn't. These changes would force indy on the current incumbents of sov, who have by their actions shown they are not up for it, nor to it. There will be blood in the water as they are now faced with managing their logistics in the face of heightened threats. As for being a worm. All these arguments have not in any way diminished the validity of my suggestion. They have merely shown me how terrified the current nulsec players are of having to support themselves out there. I can see more wriggling than have engaged in myself.
You can't force anybody to do anything in this game. That is where your stupid idea falls flat on its face. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
DataRunner Attor wrote:Question for you. Despite knowing what this thread is actually about, AKA nerf everything with a jump drive.... Did you get hotdrop while you were rattting in low sec?
Did you also think about the cost of lowsec and null minerals will also increase with this change?
Did you also think about the smaller alliance? (based on the arguments going on, I have already established that as a no.)
Do you fly a jump freighter? If not, what makes you think you have greater knowledge on how logistics work then everyone else here?
Finally and not least, why do you keep ignore my post? Are my arguments that strong? And have you noticed you are the only one fighting for this idea?
Questions, questions. Or rhetoric, to be more accurate. As you appear to be taking a keen interest in this topic, in contrast to what you stated in your post, I shall respond.
Did you get hotdrop while you were rattting in low sec? No. Your attempt to ridicule me has failed.
Did you also think about the cost of lowsec and null minerals will also increase with this change? There is plenty of NPC nulsec to be exploited, right on the empires' doorstep. Perfect opportunity for PvP as the industrial might moves into space formerly claimed by certain corps as "ours".
Did you also think about the smaller alliance? (based on the arguments going on, I have already established that as a no.) I have mentioned them too many times to bother doing so again. Do please read the topic.
Do you fly a jump freighter? If not, what makes you think you have greater knowledge on how logistics work then everyone else here? The ability to fly a JF does not confer on the pilot an understanding of logistics. Please explain its relevance.
Finally and not least, why do you keep ignore my post? Are my arguments that strong? And have you noticed you are the only one fighting for this idea? I have ignored you post up until now because I read the first point and decided it was waffle. However, for someone who has only a passing interest in this topic, you appear to have become fixated on this point. Therefore I will address each and every point.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2818683#post2818683 is the post to which you refer I assume? Here we go.
1: You have been insulting people this entire thread, you should feel ashamed of yourself. I honestly don't care if you insult me, just makes you look like a child and makes me laugh.
Post #3 was obviously confused by saying a blob would need to travel to losec. Post #5 was just a pathetic snear, which failed.
Responding to these is hardly insulting. Your saying it was says more about you than it does about me.
2: I honestly don't think you understand basic logistics. If a big alliance has the inability to gear up for your...'convoys' that you so envision, who in the hell right mind will make you think that smaller alliances will have this ability?
As you well know, this change would benefit those prepared to support themselves out in sov space, something the big ones have shown themselves unwilling or unable to do. The increased difficulty in securing armaments from empire space would reduce the ability of the big boys to maintain their stranglehold on sov space. They could of course come into empire space to mix it, but that's the title of this topic.
3: And you are mistaken if you believe that people will kill your freighter just cause you have high value cargo, if they find out that your JF for a corp, and seeing the cost of JFs are through the roof. Destroying their supply chain is a great way to cripple a smaller alliance, The lost of one JF will not only set them back a few billion for a new frieghter, but it will also set them back in time, and people's willing to do said job.
You are fixated on JF being the only way to have armaments in sov space. This is a fallacy.
4:I thought this was a change to low sec, not empire corps
As JD would work only in nulsec, it's a change to hisec as well. Are you misreading deliberately the title of this topic?
5: You won't see any Frieghter convoys at all because when the hostile spots the freighter their first target will be that, they can worry about everything else later. You my friend need to actually get into a JF so you know how it works before making a suggestion like this.
Still fixated.
6:If you wish to increase opportunities for pvp, then you should, as people been stating, create incentives. You might want to look this word up, but I will give you a run down. When you create a incentive on something, that means more people are willing to throw their lives to the grinder if that means that they have a good chance of make hell-ova lot of money...Your idea in it current form is what we call a disincentive which is the opposite of a incentive.
I might want to look up 'incentive'? What a wonderfully pompous statement! You accuse me of insulting? That's rich!
As for the grinder analogy: keeping hold of sov space is an incentive, especially if the playing field just became a little more even. Isk isn't the only reason for shooting stuff, or is your experience of nulsec too limited to appreciate that?
Character limit means I have very little room left for more of this, but I believe I've answered what you think are points worth answering.
To sum up:
1> You're pompous, as you have proved throughout this post.
2> You are fixated on JF as the only means of supplying sov, and don't want that made harder. Naturally as you or an alt are an incumbent of sov and don't want to lose your vice-like grip on it. Fair enough, but be honest about your motives.
3> Still have seen nothing to indicate opportunities for PvP won't increase. At least read the title of this topic. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
54
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Have you ever been in a large scale fleet engagement?
A large fleet would have plenty of time to kill the JF. Like I said, a single fleet of tornadoes could alpha a JF three times over. Killing a JF full of "important stuff for null sec life" certainly would be worth it to a competing alliance, or just an alliance looking for ***** and giggles.
So you agree this will lead to Increased opportunities for PvP? Glad you're onboard.
No it wont. Because a 150 tornadoes (or any tier 3 BC) can kill a JF nobody is going to take a JF into low sec. Hence it simply wont happen.
Quote:I don't dodge anything, just want to see how fixated you become on a point you believe is unassailable. This point is so trivial, but it would appear triviality is all you have to offer to this thread.
Considering it took like 4-5 posts to get you to answer, and you basically cribbed from everybody else, wow you are such a brilliant poster.
Quote:The problem of ships that can no longer function due to their location can be handled in a number of ways, not limited to your suggestion of a free jump out
Jump out where? If they live in low sec, surrounding null sec might be hostile.
Quote:Moved to the nearest nulsec Moved to the region held by their alliance. If they are a losec corp then moved to the closest nulsec containing an NPC station. Trivial.
Trivial. Sure, until you implement it and hundreds or more players/characters have ships trapped where they can't do much with them.
Keeping in mind that much of the stuff in null comes from high sec. Nobody is going to be dumb and move a JF/freighter through low sec with the existing mechanics. Things like jump fuel and liquid ozone could become very rare in NPC stations.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
54
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 18:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Quote:It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move.
This is nonsense. There is no reason why in high sec an NPC corp hauler alt would not work thus side-stepping war decs. Further, said NPC alt can join any fleet he is invited too, so again no reason not to use an alt in an NPC corp.
I don't see why any of the above paragraph has to obtain based on the changes you are suggesting. |
DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 20:59:00 -
[67] - Quote
I'm still surprised he can't see that he the only one that supports this horrible idea... GÇ£Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.GÇ¥ |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
177
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 21:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:As for being a worm. All these arguments have not in any way diminished the validity of my suggestion. That's the first thing you've gotten right (If we don't count direct quotations) in this entire topic. Your suggestion had no validity to begin with, and as such no argument can diminish that.
For my part, the offer made here still stand: When you give an argument for your idea, with either evidence or sound reasoning to support it, and that idea is in line with your stated goal, I'll be interested in giving it feedback. I'm certain that's a sentiment shared by others. Until then ...
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
58
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 21:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: I don't dodge anything, just want to see how fixated you become on a point you believe is unassailable. This point is so trivial, but it would appear triviality is all you have to offer to this thread.
The problem of ships that can no longer function due to their location can be handled in a number of ways, not limited to your suggestion of a free jump out. Moved to the nearest nulsec. Moved to the region held by their alliance. If they are a losec corp then moved to the closest nulsec containing an NPC station. Trivial.
And I might add these would be fine for dreads and carriers, but what about super caps. They can't dock. Is CCP going to move the super caps and their POS'? What about POS fuel, CCP going to make sure they have enough in system till they get stuff sorted?
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 07:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: No it wont. Because a 150 tornadoes (or any tier 3 BC) can kill a JF nobody is going to take a JF into low sec. Hence it simply wont happen.
No one with any sense will take a JF into losec as it wouldn't be able to jump. Are you sure you've been reading this topic?
Considering it took like 4-5 posts to get you to answer, and you basically cribbed from everybody else, wow you are such a brilliant poster.
It's not cribbing to copy someone's statement to explain the fallacy of the same. Another fail.
Teckos Pech wrote:Quote:The problem of ships that can no longer function due to their location can be handled in a number of ways, not limited to your suggestion of a free jump out Jump out where? If they live in low sec, surrounding null sec might be hostile. It WAS your suggestion, or was it just more rhetoric in an attempt to disguise a lack of valid points? If you bothered to think instead of panick-posting you'd consider that no one would have JD ships in losec, so the playing field would remain the same. Unless, of course, you're on of the bully-boys who hot-drops on reapers, in which case this change would benefit those who'd like a slice of losec but can't field capitals. As for hostile space: isn't that losec?
Teckos Pech wrote: Trivial. Sure, until you implement it and hundreds or more players/characters have ships trapped where they can't do much with them.
Your posting is becoming more and more desperate. Consider someone with perfect refining skills reducing the ships to their consituent parts. Then move the minerals out and rebuild the sucker. Don't say it wouldn't work, because it would.
Teckos Pech wrote: Keeping in mind that much of the stuff in null comes from high sec. Nobody is going to be dumb and move a JF/freighter through low sec with the existing mechanics. Things like jump fuel and liquid ozone could become very rare in NPC stations.
Again, STILL fixated. You're absolutely correct in what you say! Nobody is going to be dumb and move a JF/freighter through low sec without a means of defending it. OR - horror of horrors! - get the fuel and ozone from the fields in nul. There are plenty of them, with far higher yields than the hisec fields.
While I understand you are trying desperately to crush any notion of working for your tenure of sov space, with its attendant reduction in the vice-like grip, you are failing to provide any reasoning why this would not do as the topic's title states. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 07:55:00 -
[71] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Quote:It would be no longer possible to use alts in NPC corps to do this job, as they would be defenceless against attacks from griefers and losec pirates. Sov could opt to use Frog or other services to move their stuff out of empire, but that will hurt drastically the profitability of such a move. This is nonsense. There is no reason why in high sec an NPC corp hauler alt would not work thus side-stepping war decs. Further, said NPC alt can join any fleet he is invited too, so again no reason not to use an alt in an NPC corp. I don't see why any of the above paragraph has to obtain based on the changes you are suggesting.
You DO know a fleet is no defence with current game mechanics? You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 07:56:00 -
[72] - Quote
DataRunner Attor wrote:I'm still surprised he can't see that he the only one that supports this horrible idea... Are you now ignoring my posts? Tit-for-tat is a bit young for this discussion. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 08:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:As for being a worm. All these arguments have not in any way diminished the validity of my suggestion. That's the first thing you've gotten right (If we don't count direct quotations) in this entire topic. Your suggestion had no validity to begin with, and as such no argument can diminish that. For my part, the offer made here still stand: When you give an argument for your idea, with either evidence or sound reasoning to support it, and that idea is in line with your stated goal, I'll be interested in giving it feedback. I'm certain that's a sentiment shared by others. Until then ... On the contrary, the postings by my detractors have provided all the reasons why it's a very valid suggestion. The obsessive belief that JF is the only way to supply sov space, as shown in most of the postings, demonstrates that conflict will increase should sov choose to keep open supply lines to/from hisec. Losec pirates and hisec gankers would have more opportunities.
Conflict will increase should sov choose to become self-sufficient, as resources in nul become far more important to sov warfare and, therefore, a more important target.
Conflict will increase should sov not do enough of either and the current incumbents wither due to resource starvation, giving others the chance to move in. This point would be the one to scare sov the most, as hisec brings its industrial might to bear and alliances fancy a go at null.
As I've stated before: while I understand the reluctance of the current incumbents of sov to see their stranglehold loosen, that doesn't invalidate my idea in the least. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 08:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote: I don't dodge anything, just want to see how fixated you become on a point you believe is unassailable. This point is so trivial, but it would appear triviality is all you have to offer to this thread.
The problem of ships that can no longer function due to their location can be handled in a number of ways, not limited to your suggestion of a free jump out. Moved to the nearest nulsec. Moved to the region held by their alliance. If they are a losec corp then moved to the closest nulsec containing an NPC station. Trivial.
And I might add these would be fine for dreads and carriers, but what about super caps. They can't dock. Is CCP going to move the super caps and their POS'? What about POS fuel, CCP going to make sure they have enough in system till they get stuff sorted? Anyone with a supercap in losec deserves to lose it. Yes, it's an opinion, but what's the point of it being there? No sov to steal, no outposts to capture, and if you need one of those things to take out a pos? You're grasping at straws; a sure sign that you have failed to derail this topic. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Azrael Dinn
The 20th Legion Mildly Sober
75
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
And in my opinion every single pirate should be concorded even in low sec but I'm not getting what I want and nor should you. This is one of the most horrible ideas there has been. Not everything revolves around null you know.
If you want more pvp go and shoot a POS. If that will not cause more pvp I'm suprised.
Plus if such an implemention would be places in eve. Well industrialists would just stop hauling stuff from high sec to null and produce everything on their own and you would still not get any more pvp cause nullbears know how to hide (most of the time) when the likes of you show up. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1334
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 13:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
To quote Malcanis -- "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Granted "smaller alliances" don't necessarily mean "new players" ... but seriously, take a look at the map sometime.
Goons -- 121 systems, 71 outposts TEST - 173 systems, 61 outposts Tribal Band - 53 systems, 22 outposts Raiden - 64 systems, 21 outposts CVA - 43 systems, 30 outposts Scrap Iron Flotilla - 18 systems, 6 outposts
New, unheard of alliance - 1 system, 0 outposts ... suppose they could be basing out of NPC null... but the stations (not to mention the mining, etc) are going to be touchy.
Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.
Edit -- and more to the point, have you ever tried taking out a large deathstar (or variants thereof) with nothing but subcaps? One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 14:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:DataRunner Attor wrote:I'm still surprised he can't see that he the only one that supports this horrible idea... Are you now ignoring my posts? Tit-for-tat is a bit young for this discussion.
I'm not ignoring your post mate, which is why I stated, through the life of this thread, you are the ONLY ONE that is supporting this idea. You first start the thread off with no support for your idea, then when people start out pointing out all the bad things with your suggestion, you argue with them. Read your own thread mate...You are the only one that been arguing FOR this idea. GÇ£Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.GÇ¥ |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.
Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:07:00 -
[79] - Quote
DataRunner Attor wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:DataRunner Attor wrote:I'm still surprised he can't see that he the only one that supports this horrible idea... Are you now ignoring my posts? Tit-for-tat is a bit young for this discussion. I'm not ignoring your post mate, which is why I stated, through the life of this thread, you are the ONLY ONE that is supporting this idea. You first start the thread off with no support for your idea, then when people start out pointing out all the bad things with your suggestion, you argue with them. Read your own thread mate...You are the only one that been arguing FOR this idea. I doubt I qualify as one of your "mates".
As for being the only one for this idea: Gallileo was the only one arguing that the world is round. That didn't make him wrong. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
178
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 08:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:I doubt I qualify as one of your "mates".
As for being the only one for this idea: Gallileo was the only one arguing that the world is round. That didn't make him wrong. Well, to be truthful, you would have to admit that Galileo had the facts backing him up, while thus far you have the facts against you. And to be honest, if you think Galileo was arguing that the world was round, and people didn't believe him, you're pretty dumb. He argued that Earth wasn't the centre of all things (Heliocentrism instead of Geocentrism), and the Catholic church silenced him. It is this young man you want if you want a serious discussion whether the world is round or not (An even then, he was probably not the first to say the Earth is round). |
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Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1334
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.
Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems.
That said, I like how you totally ignored the rest of my post.
capships have their uses in lowsec.
Rorqual - do I really need to explain this one? Either way, I've seen a fair few of these in deep low doing their thing...
Carrier - Triage / POS repair ... though they can throw down DPS pretty well too. Dread - anti-triage carrier / POS
yeah, you get people hotdropping you from time to time; but is this any different than getting caught as a gatecamper with a support fleet jumping through right after you take the bait? One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 16:19:00 -
[82] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: Any one of the current alliances could pretty readily put a mining fleet together. If not from people already in the alliance, then from their alts who're mainly in the mission and industry fields in hisec.
Which says volumes about those who howl over the very thought of JFs having more problems. That said, I like how you totally ignored the rest of my post. capships have their uses in lowsec. Rorqual - do I really need to explain this one? Either way, I've seen a fair few of these in deep low doing their thing... Carrier - Triage / POS repair ... though they can throw down DPS pretty well too. Dread - anti-triage carrier / POS yeah, you get people hotdropping you from time to time; but is this any different than getting caught as a gatecamper with a support fleet jumping through right after you take the bait?
Appreciation of my Evasive Manouevres is always welcome, thank you. :)
Yes, this will have far-reaching ramifications for the game as a whole.
However:
- 80% of the player base is in hisec, or so I'm led to believe;
- CCP want more people to go into nulsec. This has been stated on many occasions;
- Sov space is in the vice-like grasp of a few alliances, supported by hisec.
It makes sense to do something to make sov more attractive to the 80%, rather than easier for the 20% to remain dominant. This simple change to the game will make it more likely by making local industry a LOT more important, due to remote industry being harder to access. This will alter the game balance, favouring more hte hisec industrials. Obviously, else sov wouldn't depend on them so much.
The attitudes of many posters show they will whine tooth-and-nail to keep open the caravan lanes; hence the increase in PvP opportunities. While I appreciate the current possessors not wanting this change I believe it will push the game in the direction as stated above.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 16:32:00 -
[83] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:I doubt I qualify as one of your "mates".
As for being the only one for this idea: Gallileo was the only one arguing that the world is round. That didn't make him wrong. Well, to be truthful, you would have to admit that Galileo had the facts backing him up, while thus far you have the facts against you. And to be honest, if you think Galileo was arguing that the world was round, and people didn't believe him, you're pretty dumb. He argued that Earth wasn't the centre of all things (Heliocentrism instead of Geocentrism), and the Catholic church silenced him. It is this young man you want if you want a serious discussion whether the world is round or not (An even then, he was probably not the first to say the Earth is round). Ahhh... a simple mix-up makes me stupid? Quality comment.
Yeah he was the only one championing heliocentrism, still backing my main point which is: just because it's only one man supporting an idea doesn't make it wrong. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
58
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 19:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
Increasing PvP opportunities is good but this is not good for NS overall. NS needs some help to be more attractive and this would only serve to hurt NS IMHO. |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 19:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Ahhh... a simple mix-up makes me stupid? Quality comment. No, your behaviour through the thread makes you stupid.
Quote:Yeah he was the only one championing heliocentrism, still backing my main point which is: just because it's only one man supporting an idea doesn't make it wrong. He was not the only one, and it does back your point that being alone isn't being wrong - it depends on the facts. The facts are against you, however, so that's not your issue.
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Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
108
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 19:35:00 -
[86] - Quote
I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 19:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Ahhh... a simple mix-up makes me stupid? Quality comment. No, your behaviour through the thread makes you stupid. Quote:Yeah he was the only one championing heliocentrism, still backing my main point which is: just because it's only one man supporting an idea doesn't make it wrong. He was not the only one, and it does back your point that being alone isn't being wrong - it depends on the facts. The facts are against you, however, so that's not your issue. Smartarse one-liners as a substitute for reason merely indicates your level of intelligence is suspect. Do please contribute something a bit more substantial.
Still smelling the fear, people. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 20:13:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Smartarse one-liners as a substitute for reason merely indicates your level of intelligence is suspect. Do please contribute something a bit more substantial.
Still smelling the fear, people. "That which can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
So to reiterate, present your evidence and argument, and we'll respond to it. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 08:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Smartarse one-liners as a substitute for reason merely indicates your level of intelligence is suspect. Do please contribute something a bit more substantial.
Still smelling the fear, people. "That which can be proposed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." So to reiterate, present your evidence and argument, and we'll respond to it. Many people have already responded; mostly witless remarks. Quoting wisdom to evade debate. Hardly contributive.
Still: as it is (someone else's) wisdom I shall gather the necessary and present it in due course. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 09:48:00 -
[90] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Many people have already responded; mostly witless remarks. Quoting wisdom to evade debate. Hardly contributive.
Still: as it is (someone else's) wisdom I shall gather the necessary and present it in due course. I'm not sure what "debate" you have been thinking about, but the witless remarks, evading debate/facts/questions and non-contributive arguments might actually be your own. Check your OP for reference. Until you present an argument, I'll continue to post or not based on what this thread delivers...
... of entertainment value.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 15:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Alphea Abbra wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Ahhh... a simple mix-up makes me stupid? Quality comment. No, your behaviour through the thread makes you stupid. Quote:Yeah he was the only one championing heliocentrism, still backing my main point which is: just because it's only one man supporting an idea doesn't make it wrong. He was not the only one, and it does back your point that being alone isn't being wrong - it depends on the facts. The facts are against you, however, so that's not your issue. Smartarse one-liners as a substitute for reason merely indicates your level of intelligence is suspect. Do please contribute something a bit more substantial. Still smelling the fear, people.
But the poster is right. Galileo was not the only one supporting heliocentrism. Copernicus and Tycho Brahe were also supporting it, as were probably many others with less famous names.
And this idea is still dumb as it would gimp null sec except for those alliances/coalitions that have high sec/null sec entry points.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
200
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 21:34:00 -
[92] - Quote
Topic locked temporarily for some dusting and cleaning. ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 17:38:00 -
[93] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs. Not so.
The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire. Sov is inaccessible to anyone not already part of it, or wanting to bow to those who have already claimed it. The incumbents keep themselves 'unsinkable' by heavy use of empire industry.
My idea was not about going after JF as such. It's all about wrecking the supply lines between sov and the part of New Eden that is effectively shut out of sov. As JF are used heavily in the caravans they are the obvious targets of this initiative, and empires refusing to allow the activation of JD is a very simple and VERY effective way of making this happen.
Now, contrary to the snears that were in evidence before the ISD-carnage on this topic, I have been active in sov space for long enough to understand stuff; obviously not THIS toon. Some of the points regarding industry were valid to a degree.
Pos refineries. Yeah, the yield from these suckers stinks, however the refineries themselves don't need to be altered. A simple fix would be to incorporate the players refining skills into the yield calculations. This would enable players to get decent refining from even those 35% refineries. Messing with the refinery yields themselves would break the 'reward based on effort' ideal. You want high yields then train the refining skills.
Outposts are odd. While I understand the specialisation of them, I fail to understand why they can't all be upgraded to enable them to function in a similar fashion. I don't want everything to be homogenised, so it ought to be harder to get good refining on an amarr outpost than a Matar one; it's how they're designed. However, it ought to be possible for all types of outpost to boost all types of functionality through upgrades.
I doubt these changes would have any effect, however. Sov is so addicted to easy replenishment of armaments from empire that the incumbents will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo, and I don't mean in-game fighting. Fair enough, they don't want to lose their stranglehold on sov. However, that in no way invalidates the proposal, which I believe MUST be credible in most peoples' eyes or it wouldn't have attracted such hostility.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2341
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:26:00 -
[94] - Quote
I have a better idea.
Go wreck the supply lines with ships, bubbles and lots of friends who are not in the blue doughnut. This way you actually add some value to the game because this idea has "stink" written all over it with smellovision ink.....
Killing jumpdrives to hurt null supply lines is just as fail as claiming that preventing starships from using stargates will allow new players to go about life ungriefed by vets in starter systems. The unrelated-ness of the comparisons made in the above example is 2nd only to the massive gap in your logic behind this proposal.
Buffing industry in null as seems to be the agenda of every powerblock with a CSM rep will only worsen the problem because given said buff and nulls complete independence of hi-sec, there would be no need for Jump drives to re-stock your weapon lockers to keep the crack addicts going. This will in turn change this "roadblock" of new alliances entering Sov warefare into an Iron curtain that will forever keep small timers out in the cold ghetto.
Now I dont know about you, but I see no need to buy a 7 bil isk JF to move stuff when I am not forced to move anything... Or can only move it from 0.0 to 0.0, which in turn will lead to a reduction of PvP opportunities since nobody will bother moving any assets when they can simply make them anywhere and in so doing, have the exact opposite effect you were hoping to achieve. So you see, your wonderful idea of limiting Jumpdrives to null is only going to break null even more (since every cap in the game will be moved to null) and make low-sec even more of a ghost town for PvP than it already is.
And for the record, stupid ideas that rub people up the wrong way always attracts allot of negative attention, regardless of the credibility of the idea or the nerve you strike in proposing it. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2341
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 18:29:00 -
[95] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Drake Doe wrote:I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs. Not so. The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire.
And this is not because of Jumpdrives or the dependance on Hi-sec Industry.
This is 100% because of NAP fests between members of OTEC in this game who want to keep their little monopoly on moon mining.
So your real problem is emergent gameplay and your solution is to break the game. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:13:00 -
[96] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I have a better idea.
Go wreck the supply lines with ships, bubbles and lots of friends who are not in the blue doughnut. This way you actually add some value to the game because this idea has "stink" written all over it with smellovision ink.....
... which JF avoids by using its JD.
Asuka Solo wrote: Killing jumpdrives to hurt null supply lines is just as fail as claiming that preventing starships from using stargates will allow new players to go about life ungriefed by vets in starter systems. The unrelated-ness of the comparisons made in the above example is 2nd only to the massive gap in your logic behind this proposal.
This is just babble. You are genuinely afraid of this idea of mine, aren't you?
Asuka Solo wrote: Buffing industry in null as seems to be the agenda of every powerblock with a CSM rep will only worsen the problem because given said buff and nulls complete independence of hi-sec, there would be no need for Jump drives to re-stock your weapon lockers to keep the crack addicts going. This will in turn change this "roadblock" of new alliances entering Sov warefare into an Iron curtain that will forever keep small timers out in the cold ghetto.
Now I dont know about you, but I see no need to buy a 7 bil isk JF to move stuff when I am not forced to move anything... Or can only move it from 0.0 to 0.0, which in turn will lead to a reduction of PvP opportunities since nobody will bother moving any assets when they can simply make them anywhere and in so doing, have the exact opposite effect you were hoping to achieve.
THANK-YOU! You're the only one who isn't whining about nulsec industry needing to be fixed. Leaving it as it is was what I was saying at the start of this topic. Cope or wither.
Asuka Solo wrote: So you see, your wonderful idea of limiting Jumpdrives to null is only going to break null even more (since every cap in the game will be moved to null) and make low-sec even more of a ghost town for PvP than it already is.
PvP in losec is stifled by the ability of caps to be hot-dropped on fleets. Only those alliances with enough funds can field them, destroying PvP for the newer players. Removing the caps will level the field for all, allowing these relative newbies a chance to engage fully. Only those addicted to caps will be unable to field a sub-cap field capable of engaging, so you see this idea will break nothing regarding PvP; it will only enhance it.
Asuka Solo wrote: And for the record, stupid ideas that rub people up the wrong way always attracts allot of negative attention, regardless of the credibility of the idea or the nerve you strike in proposing it.
For the record: that vested interests pour scorn on an idea doesn't make it stupid. That you call it stupid says more about you than the idea. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 07:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Drake Doe wrote:I don't see how this creates more pvp, asakai wasn't in null. This is basically a long thread about your inability to plan ahead when going after jfs. Not so. The game has settled into this stagnant doughnut surrounding empire. And this is not because of Jumpdrives or the dependance on Hi-sec Industry.This is 100% because of NAP fests between members of OTEC in this game who want to keep their little monopoly on moon mining. So your real problem is emergent gameplay and your solution is to break the game.
Disrupting the supply lines works both ways, how to get the goo to hisec - read jita - in order to capitalise on it. Shipping it in is one thing; getting your ship out again is another matter. Their little monopoly takes a caning without secure shipping lanes.
As for the last sentence: this doesn't break the game, it just scares people who are involved in this monopoly. It also shakes hard the monopoly's hold on sov space. This must be the case, else you wouldn't be so aggressively against it. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
Neither of you two are thinking.
1. Jump freighters are still helpful in Null--i.e. moving large amounts of stuff quickly and relatively safely from one 0.0 system to another.
2. Also with this proposed change alliances with a high sec/null sec entrance will have a definite advantage. Some examples here are Goons/CFC, TEST/HBC.
3. You cannot secure the shipping lines with current game mechanics. Any fleet of 150 tornadoes in low sec will surely alpha any JF they lock up. No "convoy" fleet will be able to stop this. It is even conceivable that some low sec groups will make capitals in "their" systems and will be able to use them with some degree of impunity because the notion of a hot drop/counter drop is no longer possible.
So based on the above it is entirely possible null will become even more of big blue donut with certain alliances/coalitions gaining a significant advantage over competitors thereby forcing them out of null sec. The monopoly on moon goo could become worse.
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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1200
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 08:56:00 -
[99] - Quote
This would not increase opportunities for pvp, in fact it limits it.
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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force Caldari State Capturing
241
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 09:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
Yes, lets ruin faction warfare logistics! Believe it or not, some of us suffer from station lockouts on a day to day basis and go through ships as fast as nullsec does.
By limiting jump freighters jump drive to nullsec, how do you reckon Lowsec would be supplied? Specifically - those within faction warfare. Are we supposed to haul everything by crane? |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
85
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 10:12:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:Yes, lets ruin faction warfare logistics! Believe it or not, some of us suffer from station lockouts on a day to day basis and go through ships as fast as nullsec does.
By limiting jump freighters jump drive to nullsec, how do you reckon Lowsec would be supplied? Specifically - those within faction warfare. Are we supposed to haul everything by crane?
Clearly you fear this idea. Therefore you must be part of OTEC and the idea is simply marvelous.
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Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1352
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 12:53:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:However:
- 80% of the player base is in hisec, or so I'm led to believe;
- CCP want more people to go into nulsec. This has been stated on many occasions;
- Sov space is in the vice-like grasp of a few alliances, supported by hisec.
It makes sense to do something to make sov more attractive to the 80%, rather than easier for the 20% to remain dominant. This simple change to the game will make it more likely by making local industry a LOT more important, due to remote industry being harder to access. This will alter the game balance, favouring more hte hisec industrials. Obviously, else sov wouldn't depend on them so much. The attitudes of many posters show they will whine tooth-and-nail to keep open the caravan lanes; hence the increase in PvP opportunities. While I appreciate the current possessors not wanting this change I believe it will push the game in the direction as stated above.
IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.
Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.
Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 13:07:00 -
[103] - Quote
What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?
You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
86
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:19:00 -
[104] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?
You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on.
You did the whole route via gates or did you use titan bridges or jump bridges? And what kind of support did you have on standby for the low sec portion?
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Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1355
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 15:29:00 -
[105] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:What do you jokers think happened before Jump Freighters were put in?
You actually had convoys, with escorts, and interdictions/commerce raiding. Hell, convoy runs from Tenal down to Taisy 'back in the day' were some of the best fleets I've been on.
Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).
HOWEVER -- the proposed change here is "no more jumpdrive activation anywhere in empire". Jump Freighters aside, this breaks every other capship in the game. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Jacid
nul-li-fy Nulli Secunda
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 16:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
I think the OP is wrong on this, in order to make null sec industry more popular you have to do one of two things either make null industry more profitable or make high sec industry less. If you want more people in null sec you have to make the content in null sec more profitable/fun or make high sec less profitable/fun. If you stop jump drives from working in low sec you will have less people then you do already running industry in null and less people in null in general because its more of a pain to move ships supplies etc.
As for the big blue donut i don't know entirely the solution for this. I know that because of passive income (moon goo) big blocks of power are getting more isk doing less every single day. I agree with many of the posts on the forums that alliance funding needs to be from the bottom up not the top down (ring mining and alliance wide taxes). This at least would stop passive income and would force alliances to compete with each other for the lowest tax or the best resource. I know that sov based off usage of a system might be a help to open new space up for new alliances.
I digress though, the short answer to the OP is no it won't work and you will have the opposite effect on null sec with what your trying to.
My 2 Cents |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
88
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:20:00 -
[107] - Quote
Jacid wrote:
As for the big blue donut i don't know entirely the solution for this. I know that because of passive income (moon goo) big blocks of power are getting more isk doing less every single day.
Actually no. They do pretty much the same thing day in and day out. And some alliances like PL spend just about as much isk as they make.
Quote: I agree with many of the posts on the forums that alliance funding needs to be from the bottom up not the top down (ring mining and alliance wide taxes). This at least would stop passive income and would force alliances to compete with each other for the lowest tax or the best resource. I know that sov based off usage of a system might be a help to open new space up for new alliances.
You wont get this in null without some changes. Mining in null sucks relative to the ease of empire. Building, aside from caps and super caps, sucks too.
Quote:I digress though, the short answer to the OP is no it won't work and you will have the opposite effect on null sec with what your trying to.
My 2 Cents
I like the cut of your jib young man! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
565
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:26:00 -
[108] - Quote
really really really dumb ideas.
For one that'd decrease it cause you're limiting the total number of places a cap fight can happen. Did the OP really forget the CFC/HBC cap fight that just happened in lowsec?
For 2, you kill all chance of fw cap warfare. CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
565
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 02:26:00 -
[109] - Quote
For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie CCP don't make us wait another decade for a drone overhaul; DRONE OVERHAUL NOW! |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 13:59:00 -
[110] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.
Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.
Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.
Not so much help them in terms of isk profit, but they will have an advantage in terms of armaments and resupply. The antipathy shown by the sov-holders to this idea makes me believe they will not be so good at the industrial side of things. This translates into an advantage for anyone, not just empire, who have built up a manufacturing base capable of supporting the alliance of which its a part. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie
Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling.
As for your comment: not after this change. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:14:00 -
[112] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Acac Sunflyier wrote:For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling. As for your comment: not after this change. So what will happen to those caps now since they need a cyno to move? Do you not see that this destroys so many opportunities in already barren low sec? And like another poster said what about caps in faction warfare? (I meant to post a reply centered around this a few days ago but when it wouldn't post, then deleted, I gave up) |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 14:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: IIRC, that's 80% of the characters, not 80% of the players living in empire. So, you have to factor out the nullsec alts, and the lowsec pirate hauler alts too.
Fact of the matter is though, lowsec is a "semi-safe" place for new corps and alliances to get their feet wet with capships.
Though -- I don't follow your reasoning that "getting rid of JD usage in empire" will help hisec industrialists. I mean, if it's that much harder to move crap from empire to nullsec; the nullsec alliances will just turn to their internal sources for everything, and that'll (for a while anyway) gut the empire markets, until all the oversupply is finally bled off.
Not so much help them in terms of isk profit, but they will have an advantage in terms of armaments and resupply. The antipathy shown by the sov-holders to this idea makes me believe they will not be so good at the industrial side of things. This translates into an advantage for anyone, not just empire, who have built up a manufacturing base capable of supporting the alliance of which its a part.
[sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:01:00 -
[114] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 19:03:00 -
[115] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Acac Sunflyier wrote:For three, caps are bought and sold in lowsec you dummie Dummy... if you insist on name-calling at least get right the spelling. As for your comment: not after this change. So what will happen to those caps now since they need a cyno to move? Do you not see that this destroys so many opportunities in already barren low sec? And like another poster said what about caps in faction warfare? (I meant to post a reply centered around this a few days ago but when it wouldn't post, then deleted, I gave up) Caps in FW? I have an alt in FW and it's all frigates to BC, and BC is rare. As for losec being barren: losing the risk of hot drops would promote more activity in losec, not less. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
89
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 20:06:00 -
[116] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.
Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption.
Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm!
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 08:47:00 -
[117] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion. Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption. Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm! The industry in that hisec system must be formidable to be able to replace the journey from Jita. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1357
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 11:40:00 -
[118] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion.
You're going about it the wrong way though.
If you break supply from empire -> null (and obviously null -> empire), null will turn their resources internal. You'll see a lot of the current holders turtle up on their important systems, and probably move "important" systems around a bit. edit -- not to mention T2 supplies will dwindle in empire.
That sounds great -- more unused space for new alliances, right?
Well, how are the little guys gonna get stuff? I mean, they have 1 system of SOV. It's probably something crap like -0.1, and has no station, so EVERYTHING is made in a POS. They have no caps yet, because they've only just set up, and it's gonna take 2-3 weeks to build one, ignoring any time needed to mine & refine the minerals (oh, and they have a hard 75% cap on refining). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 14:51:00 -
[119] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: You did the whole route via gates or did you use titan bridges or jump bridges? And what kind of support did you have on standby for the low sec portion?
At that stage in the game there was only one Titan in existance, ASCN's Avatar.
We're talking half a dozen Freighters, flown conventionally, all the way down from S-EVIQ to Taisy.
Our escort fleet was around 150, of all shapes and sizes.
Velicitia wrote:Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).
See above. Carriers? What, you think we stopped and fitted every ship so we could use Maintenance Bays? No. Freighters all the way, across three regions of nullsec, and then some lowsec too.
This stuff actually happened people. No bridges, no JFs, just long long fleets guarding lots and lots of freighters. It's clear that so many players are so used to the toys and gimmicks that are available in Eve now that the very idea of commerce raiding simply doesn't exist in your minds. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:You're going about it the wrong way though.
If you break supply from empire -> null (and obviously null -> empire), null will turn their resources internal. You'll see a lot of the current holders turtle up on their important systems, and probably move "important" systems around a bit. edit -- not to mention T2 supplies will dwindle in empire.
That sounds great -- more unused space for new alliances, right?
Well, how are the little guys gonna get stuff? I mean, they have 1 system of SOV. It's probably something crap like -0.1, and has no station, so EVERYTHING is made in a POS. They have no caps yet, because they've only just set up, and it's gonna take 2-3 weeks to build one, ignoring any time needed to mine & refine the minerals (oh, and they have a hard 75% cap on refining). It becomes more obvious why CCP implemented NPC nulsec, complete with NPC stations where capitals can be manufactured. Certainly if an alliance wanted to jump from empire straight into sov it would be a bloody hard few weeks (months?). Using NPC nul as a staging post would be an obvious step. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1358
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 16:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Velicitia wrote:Freighters in hisec ... maybe 1 jump into a controlled lowsec. Then carriers (or the Rorqual) from there to where ever. Prior to that, I imagine that it was all industrials and the like (IIRC, caps and freighters came out at the same time -- but I could be wrong).
See above. Carriers? What, you think we stopped and fitted every ship so we could use Maintenance Bays? No. Freighters all the way, across three regions of nullsec, and then some lowsec too. This stuff actually happened people. No bridges, no JFs, just long long fleets guarding lots and lots of freighters. It's clear that so many players are so used to the toys and gimmicks that are available in Eve now that the very idea of commerce raiding simply doesn't exist in your minds.
Freighters -> carriers/rorq was personal experience for smaller goods (i.e. a ship here and there, but mostly other low volume/unit goods), though I was very low in the ranks at the time (2009), and could very well have just not been aware of the alliance-level logistics trains.
I know I had done trips of several jumps through null (7-10 before empire) in a scouted freighter. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1358
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:07:00 -
[122] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: It becomes more obvious why CCP implemented NPC nulsec, complete with NPC stations where capitals can be manufactured. Certainly if an alliance wanted to jump from empire straight into sov it would be a bloody hard few weeks (months?). Using NPC nul as a staging post would be an obvious step.
right, because a non-capital-owning empire alliance looking to move into nullsec will be able to get enough assets and security to
1. take over a station system to build in 2. provide enough security to actually obtain the material necessary to build caps.
Curse - 50 systems, 35 systems with stations, 27 systems with mfg lines. Great Wildlands - 101 systems, 3 systems with stations, 2 systems with mfg lines Outer Ring - 59 systems, 3 systems with stations, 2 systems with mfg lines Stain - 132 systems, 49 systems with stations, 28 systems with mfg lines Syndicate - 106 systems, 64 with stations, 28 systems with mfg lines Venal - 95 systems, 7 systems with stations, 5 systems with mfg lines.
good luck. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:32:00 -
[123] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion. Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption. Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm! The industry in that hisec system must be formidable to be able to replace the journey from Jita.
Okay, that went right over your head. Goons wont have to replace the journey from Jita. EC- is null. Torrinos is high sec. So they can jump stuff out to Dekelin very easyily, unlike say Fountain.
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1079
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 17:41:00 -
[124] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Velicitia wrote: [sarcasm] you're absolutely right, nullsec alliances have zero mining capacity. It's not like they wouldn't bring down their (currently residing in hisec) mining alts, and tear through constellations like locusts. [/sarcasm]
First problem right now today with nullsec is that it has less than 5% of the industrial capacity of hisec (i.e. available slots, not players with the skills).
Fix this part, and the "problem" will take care of itself.
That's not what I want. Disruption of supplylines between empire and sov space is what I want. More opportunities for PvP as it becomes more dangerous for the freighting of goods. This accomplishes that in a very simple fashion. Unless you are an alliance like Goonswarm with a high sec/null sec entry. Then you can enjoy the benefits of both null and high sec with almost zero disruption. Yeah...lets buff Goonswarm! The industry in that hisec system must be formidable to be able to replace the journey from Jita.
Hint: They'll freighter everything to that one system, transfer it to jump freighters, go through the one gate from highsec into null, then jump directly to wherever in null they're going. or, freighter everything to the station in their nullsec entry point for transfer to carriers/rorquals/etc, meaning there will be a 'convoy protection op' that covers one gate and nothing more.
Please, tell us why that one jump is worth nerfing the hell out of lowsec, wrecking the ability of faction warfare corps to escalate to caps, removing the ability to stage in lowsec and hit sov holders from there, removing the ability to evac your assets if you're losing sov or leaving null.....
Also, tell us why the big players need to be the only ones capable of logistics.
ALSO, tell us how nullsec is expected to actually produce anything with the pitiful amount of factory slots we have out there.
ALSO ALSO, tell us where we're going to get our lowends from? Or rather, tell us why you want to encourage people to bot mine? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
92
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 18:53:00 -
[125] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
Hint: They'll freighter everything to that one system, transfer it to jump freighters, go through the one gate from highsec into null, then jump directly to wherever in null they're going. or, freighter everything to the station in their nullsec entry point for transfer to carriers/rorquals/etc, meaning there will be a 'convoy protection op' that covers one gate and nothing more.
Pretty much.
Now some place like Venal, which is NPC null and the home of various alliances creating a headache for northern sov holding alliances will likely become a de facto space of the sov holders in the region. No outside alliance could hope to live there with no reasonable logistics. Right now you can barely reach Venal from Lonetrek....low sec. After this change, that would no longer be possible. So Goons/CFC would own that space too for all intents and purposes.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 06:52:00 -
[126] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, that went right over your head. Goons wont have to replace the journey from Jita. EC- is null. Torrinos is high sec. So they can jump stuff out to Dekelin very easyily, unlike say Fountain.
It obviously confuses you. The trip from hi to nul is to move goods made in hisec. Unless Torrinos has an eye-wateringly good manufacturing base the journey from Jita to Torrinos/EC still needs to be accomplished by ordinary freighting. Plenty of PvP opportunities.
It looks like it's gone right over your head. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 07:02:00 -
[127] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote: Hint: They'll freighter everything to that one system, transfer it to jump freighters, go through the one gate from highsec into null, then jump directly to wherever in null they're going. or, freighter everything to the station in their nullsec entry point for transfer to carriers/rorquals/etc, meaning there will be a 'convoy protection op' that covers one gate and nothing more.
Please, tell us why that one jump is worth nerfing the hell out of lowsec, wrecking the ability of faction warfare corps to escalate to caps, removing the ability to stage in lowsec and hit sov holders from there, removing the ability to evac your assets if you're losing sov or leaving null.....
Also, tell us why the big players need to be the only ones capable of logistics.
ALSO, tell us how nullsec is expected to actually produce anything with the pitiful amount of factory slots we have out there.
ALSO ALSO, tell us where we're going to get our lowends from? Or rather, tell us why you want to encourage people to bot mine?
Hint: Precisely what's wanted, no jumping out, everything needing to be freighted to nul/one-jump out. Increased opportunities for PvP (remember the title of this topic?).
Please, tell us .... FAIL. FW uses mostly frigs and cruisers, so this affects them not at all. I know, I have an alt in FW.
Also, tell us why the FAIL. I didn't even hint at that. YOU introduced that, pretending it's what I'm saying.
ALSO, tell us how nullsec FAIL. It's not for everyone else to support sov alliances' stranglehold on sov space. You need more slots, build them yourselves.
ALSO ALSO, tell us where FAIL. You want everyone else to play the game for you? Work it out yourself!
That other poster has a point. All these recent gimicks have turned sov alliances into gangs of whiney brats. If you can't hold onto your space without leeching off those you shut out of it, then expect to fail.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1083
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 14:53:00 -
[128] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Danika Princip wrote: Hint: They'll freighter everything to that one system, transfer it to jump freighters, go through the one gate from highsec into null, then jump directly to wherever in null they're going. or, freighter everything to the station in their nullsec entry point for transfer to carriers/rorquals/etc, meaning there will be a 'convoy protection op' that covers one gate and nothing more.
Please, tell us why that one jump is worth nerfing the hell out of lowsec, wrecking the ability of faction warfare corps to escalate to caps, removing the ability to stage in lowsec and hit sov holders from there, removing the ability to evac your assets if you're losing sov or leaving null.....
Also, tell us why the big players need to be the only ones capable of logistics.
ALSO, tell us how nullsec is expected to actually produce anything with the pitiful amount of factory slots we have out there.
ALSO ALSO, tell us where we're going to get our lowends from? Or rather, tell us why you want to encourage people to bot mine?
Hint: Precisely what's wanted, no jumping out, everything needing to be freighted to nul/one-jump out. Increased opportunities for PvP (remember the title of this topic?). Please, tell us .... FAIL. FW uses mostly frigs and cruisers, so this affects them not at all. I know, I have an alt in FW. Also, tell us why the FAIL. I didn't even hint at that. YOU introduced that, pretending it's what I'm saying. ALSO, tell us how nullsec FAIL. It's not for everyone else to support sov alliances' stranglehold on sov space. You need more slots, build them yourselves. ALSO ALSO, tell us where FAIL. You want everyone else to play the game for you? Work it out yourself! That other poster has a point. All these recent gimicks have turned sov alliances into gangs of whiney brats. If you can't hold onto your space without leeching off those you shut out of it, then expect to fail.
So, why do I read battlereports about FW caps and supers? Why should the organised corps not even have the option to escalate like that?
Explain exactly how a small alliance is expected to be able to cover freighters across multiple regions, when even a large one would struggle.
Build them where? How? A fully upgraded amarr station has 29 slots. It also costs multiple billions. How, exactly, would anyone besides the CFC/HBC/other blocs be expected to drop enough of them to actually build even enough ammunition to support themselves?
You ignored several questions, so why is this worth: removing the ability to stage in lowsec and hit sov holders from there, removing the ability to evac your assets if you're losing sov or leaving null.
In addition to that, you seem to have mistaken NPC or altcorp haulers in regular freighters crossing highsec for an increase in PVP opportunities. You'd increase the opportunities for suicide ganking at the cost of making it virtually impossible to actually live in low or nullsec for a prolonged period of time.
You do not actually know what you are talking about, do you.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:00:00 -
[129] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: Okay, that went right over your head. Goons wont have to replace the journey from Jita. EC- is null. Torrinos is high sec. So they can jump stuff out to Dekelin very easyily, unlike say Fountain.
It obviously confuses you. The trip from hi to nul is to move goods made in hisec. Unless Torrinos has an eye-wateringly good manufacturing base the journey from Jita to Torrinos/EC still needs to be accomplished by ordinary freighting. Plenty of PvP opportunities. It looks like it's gone right over your head.
If you aren't stupid while packing your freighter, no there wont be. Jita - Torrinos is a completely 100% high sec route. Aside from freighter ganking, there will be zero PVP. Just like there is not PVP now when going from Jita to Torrinos.
Quote:Hint: Precisely what's wanted, no jumping out, everything needing to be freighted to nul/one-jump out. Increased opportunities for PvP (remember the title of this topic?).
Do you even play this game? No really, do you actually play? The poster is correct, there wont be any extra PvP in this specific case. Here is the route to Torrinos:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/route/2:Jita:Torrinos
13 jumps...all High sec.
The next stop is EC-P8R:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/EC-P8R
Goon sov, and a station system.
No extra PvP. At all. JF, picks up the load(s) in Torrinos, jumps into EC- (which Goons will almost surely have perma camped if this change were for some mind boggling reason implemented) and then when cap recharges, jump to the next beacon system many light years (and several constellations) away.
And in case it escapes you there is absolutely nothing in your proposal that would keep any alliance from using NPC hauling alts in high security space. So no war decs either.
The same thing holds for HED-GP down in Catch. It connects directly to high sec. For Delve/Querious they have 1 low sec system, Efa. So again very likely little extra PvP there. And since the same alliance/coalition holds Delve, Querious, Fountain Period Basis and Catch, it would be a huge gift to that coalition.
Now the residents of Stain....****ed in the a$$.
Oh and guess what the residents of Stain are currently doing? Fighting the HBC. And if anyone in the future wants to fight the HBC they might opt for basing out of NPC Delve or Kahnid or possibly even Stain...but with your changes that will become very problematic. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:01:00 -
[130] - Quote
Someone who has played this game since the very early days has already pointed out that nulsec was perfectly viable without JF, and has even taken time to explain how it was managed, demolishing all of your scenarios of armageddon. That the idea of it scares you so much is no reason to lash out at any proposal to bring it back.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
93
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:24:00 -
[131] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Someone who has played this game since the very early days has already pointed out that nulsec was perfectly viable without JF, and has even taken time to explain how it was managed, demolishing all of your scenarios of armageddon. That the idea of it scares you so much is no reason to lash out at any proposal to bring it back.
No he didn't. When pressed for further information he failed to respond.
And nice dodge by the way. I guess we can conclude the Danika Princip and I are correct, that in those cases where there is a high sec/null sec gate very little extra PvP will be had.
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Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:56:00 -
[132] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Someone who has played this game since the very early days has already pointed out that nulsec was perfectly viable without JF, and has even taken time to explain how it was managed, demolishing all of your scenarios of armageddon. That the idea of it scares you so much is no reason to lash out at any proposal to bring it back. No he didn't. When pressed for further information he failed to respond. And nice dodge by the way. I guess we can conclude the Danika Princip and I are correct, that in those cases where there is a high sec/null sec gate very little extra PvP will be had. Haven't dodged anything, as well you know 'by the way'. Gankers would be swarming over this hisec system like piranhas smelling blood; you ought to know that, being an expert on the game. See the swarms in Jita? That 's how your hisec system would be.
As for his failing to respond: your refusal to acknowledge that the game worked fine without JF is reason enough not to press the point. 'None so blind' and all that. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
93
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Posted - 2013.04.13 15:47:00 -
[133] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote:Someone who has played this game since the very early days has already pointed out that nulsec was perfectly viable without JF, and has even taken time to explain how it was managed, demolishing all of your scenarios of armageddon. That the idea of it scares you so much is no reason to lash out at any proposal to bring it back. No he didn't. When pressed for further information he failed to respond. And nice dodge by the way. I guess we can conclude the Danika Princip and I are correct, that in those cases where there is a high sec/null sec gate very little extra PvP will be had. Haven't dodged anything, as well you know 'by the way'. Gankers would be swarming over this hisec system like piranhas smelling blood; you ought to know that, being an expert on the game. See the swarms in Jita? That 's how your hisec system would be. As for his failing to respond: your refusal to acknowledge that the game worked fine without JF is reason enough not to press the point. 'None so blind' and all that.
There are no gankers in Jita, at least for freighters. Too high a sec status.
As for ganking in Torrinos, it could be done, it is 0.5 after all. But gankers are not typically going to be doing it unless it is profitable.
And lastly, you didn't think about how the game worked back then. Titans existed. Getting into low sec, warping to a titan and bridging out was one option. There other jump capable ships at the time too such as carriers and rorquals that worked in low sec. Granted you'd need lots of carriers to carrier the same amount of stuff as a freighter, but it could be done. When we lived in Stain, making JF trips down there were problematic. You had to already be in low sec to do it. As such we developed a carrier system for jumping stuff down. So it was not like what you are proposing. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 06:56:00 -
[134] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: And lastly, you didn't think about how the game worked back then. Titans existed. Getting into low sec, warping to a titan and bridging out was one option. There other jump capable ships at the time too such as carriers and rorquals that worked in low sec. Granted you'd need lots of carriers to carrier the same amount of stuff as a freighter, but it could be done. When we lived in Stain, making JF trips down there were problematic. You had to already be in low sec to do it. As such we developed a carrier system for jumping stuff down. So it was not like what you are proposing.
" Getting into low sec, warping to a titan and bridging out was one option. " demonstrates that JD is not necessary in empire space. The 'Getting into low sec' bit demonstrates perfectly that point. As you've shown that the logistics is perfectly viable without JD in empire space, why the continued refusal to accept it's valid? You've just stated that it is. You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
100
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Posted - 2013.04.15 20:38:00 -
[135] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And lastly, you didn't think about how the game worked back then. Titans existed. Getting into low sec, warping to a titan and bridging out was one option. There other jump capable ships at the time too such as carriers and rorquals that worked in low sec. Granted you'd need lots of carriers to carrier the same amount of stuff as a freighter, but it could be done. When we lived in Stain, making JF trips down there were problematic. You had to already be in low sec to do it. As such we developed a carrier system for jumping stuff down. So it was not like what you are proposing.
" Getting into low sec, warping to a titan and bridging out was one option. " demonstrates that JD is not necessary in empire space. The 'Getting into low sec' bit demonstrates perfectly that point. As you've shown that the logistics is perfectly viable without JD in empire space, why the continued refusal to accept it's valid? You've just stated that it is.
Going into 1 low sec system is one thing, going through several till you reach null is another thing entirely.
Now maybe you have a point if you were to focus on the ubiquity of JFs. I don't think CCP foresaw how many would be privately owned by players...much like Titans and Super Carriers. I think, going by memory, that the in game "lore" had the 4 empires having something like titans in the single digits...definitely no more than double digits. Now some null sec alliances sport dozens if not more. Looks like the list of known titans in game is not being kept up anymore, but the last update had IT alliance have 68 back in 2011 and 164 titans total...I'm sure the number is much higher now.
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Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
24
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Posted - 2013.04.15 22:32:00 -
[136] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No he didn't. When pressed for further information he failed to respond.
I didn't fail to respond, try reading back.
My post referred to a time pre-Titans, pre-JFs.
ERHMAHGERD HOW CAN I LIVE WITHOUT TEH JUMP DRIVE?
Well hot diggity, life did exist before Titans, before Jump Freighters.
We ran convoys, CONVOYS of freighters, half a dozen at a time, with 150-200 man combat fleets escorting them, all the way down from S-EVIQ in Tenal, down through Venal, touch of Tribute, and into high sec through Taisy/Nalvula.
Believe me, there was such a thing as viable nullsec long before your beloved jump capabilities exist. And it was a lot more fun than now. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
102
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:57:00 -
[137] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No he didn't. When pressed for further information he failed to respond. I didn't fail to respond, try reading back. My post referred to a time pre-Titans, pre-JFs. ERHMAHGERD HOW CAN I LIVE WITHOUT TEH JUMP DRIVE? Well hot diggity, life did exist before Titans, before Jump Freighters. We ran convoys, CONVOYS of freighters, half a dozen at a time, with 150-200 man combat fleets escorting them, all the way down from S-EVIQ in Tenal, down through Venal, touch of Tribute, and into high sec through Taisy/Nalvula. Believe me, there was such a thing as viable nullsec long before your beloved jump capabilities exist. And it was a lot more fun than now.
You think it would work now? The game has changed considerably. Things like fleet vs. gang, new ships, the ubiquity of T2 components and ships. And forget null, just think about taking those freighters nowadays through low sec. |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
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Posted - 2013.04.16 05:45:00 -
[138] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: You think it would work now? The game has changed considerably. Things like fleet vs. gang, new ships, the ubiquity of T2 components and ships. And forget null, just think about taking those freighters nowadays through low sec.
Perhaps. But it changed once, doesn't mean it can't change again. T2 wasn't exactly rare back then though, we're talking back when the Vagabond was a ****-train that could just tear through anything, was in common use.
You say Freighters through low sec as if it's such an horrific idea though. You know, people can actually group together, and guard the freighters, and scout far and wide.
One of the things that made it possible 'back then' was again the non-available of jump drives/bridges. Of course we could scout freighters all that way because we could actually scout, knowing what we saw in local was it. There was no cloaky guy waiting to pop a cyno and a fleet would go *poof* on top of us. I remember one amazing convoy when TCF (Tau Ceti Fed) were chasing us down and we were having to leave small groups behind to delay them while the web teams were trying to get the fat freighters moving as fast as possible. We'd have half a dozen scouts in every direction because we knew people would have to approach us conventionally.
You're right to an extent that in its current guise it'd be a slaughter house, particularly with the proliferation of capitals, Titan bridges and the like in lowsec. But the whole point of this post is the discuss the removal of that. |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 07:08:00 -
[139] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Going into 1 low sec system is one thing, going through several till you reach null is another thing entirely. Now maybe you have a point if you were to focus on the ubiquity of JFs. I don't think CCP foresaw how many would be privately owned by players...much like Titans and Super Carriers. I think, going by memory, that the in game "lore" had the 4 empires having something like titans in the single digits...definitely no more than double digits. Now some null sec alliances sport dozens if not more. Looks like the list of known titans in game is not being kept up anymore, but the last update had IT alliance have 68 back in 2011 and 164 titans total...I'm sure the number is much higher now.
Going into 1 low sec system is one thing, going through several till you reach null is another thing entirely.
Hence increased opportunities for PvP; no JF or bridges in empire space.
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
102
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Posted - 2013.04.16 07:11:00 -
[140] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: You think it would work now? The game has changed considerably. Things like fleet vs. gang, new ships, the ubiquity of T2 components and ships. And forget null, just think about taking those freighters nowadays through low sec.
Perhaps. But it changed once, doesn't mean it can't change again. T2 wasn't exactly rare back then though, we're talking back when the Vagabond was a ****-train that could just tear through anything, was in common use. You say Freighters through low sec as if it's such an horrific idea though. You know, people can actually group together, and guard the freighters, and scout far and wide. One of the things that made it possible 'back then' was again the non-available of jump drives/bridges. Of course we could scout freighters all that way because we could actually scout, knowing what we saw in local was it. There was no cloaky guy waiting to pop a cyno and a fleet would go *poof* on top of us. I remember one amazing convoy when TCF (Tau Ceti Fed) were chasing us down and we were having to leave small groups behind to delay them while the web teams were trying to get the fat freighters moving as fast as possible. We'd have half a dozen scouts in every direction because we knew people would have to approach us conventionally. You're right to an extent that in its current guise it'd be a slaughter house, particularly with the proliferation of capitals, Titan bridges and the like in lowsec. But the whole point of this post is the discuss the removal of that.
Were there fleets of 150 vagabonds back then?
How about 150 tornadoes? Could a fleet stop them from alphaing a freighter?
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Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
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Posted - 2013.04.16 08:57:00 -
[141] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Fatbear]
Were there fleets of 150 vagabonds back then?
How about 150 tornadoes? Could a fleet stop them from alphaing a freighter?
You're missing the point that without jump tech, scouting becomes much more viable/reliable and you'd never 'stumble' into a massive alpha fleet as you describe. You had far forward scouts, a lead fleet to clear the way or draw away opponents, and you had a rear guard fleet running delaying actions.
There as endless pvp for the combat fleets and those chasing the convoy. It was a 'do or die' situation once committed. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1095
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 10:01:00 -
[142] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[quote=Fatbear]
Were there fleets of 150 vagabonds back then?
How about 150 tornadoes? Could a fleet stop them from alphaing a freighter?
You're missing the point that without jump tech, scouting becomes much more viable/reliable and you'd never 'stumble' into a massive alpha fleet as you describe. You had far forward scouts, a lead fleet to clear the way or draw away opponents, and you had a rear guard fleet running delaying actions. There as endless pvp for the combat fleets and those chasing the convoy. It was a 'do or die' situation once committed.
And yet, I have never heard freighter escort described as anything other than 'The most boring thing in this entire game' by the people who were around at the time.
You'd still only be hurting people who don't have a highsec-nullsec connection anyway, unless increasing the amounts of neutral and NPC corp freighters getting suicide ganked is really the kind of PVP you were looking for. |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 10:12:00 -
[143] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
And yet, I have never heard freighter escort described as anything other than 'The most boring thing in this entire game' by the people who were around at the time.
You'd still only be hurting people who don't have a highsec-nullsec connection anyway, unless increasing the amounts of neutral and NPC corp freighters getting suicide ganked is really the kind of PVP you were looking for.
And yet, you're commenting authoratively on something you weren't party to. Fact is we've got a game populated by players who know nothing of the 'before times' when titans and bridges didn't exist.
Believe me, it was ALL more fun than it is now. |
Seranova Farreach
Friendship is Missles
442
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 10:38:00 -
[144] - Quote
No, would just mean pvpers gankers pies and rival alliances will just go to gate camping low instead of null |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1095
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 11:02:00 -
[145] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
And yet, I have never heard freighter escort described as anything other than 'The most boring thing in this entire game' by the people who were around at the time.
You'd still only be hurting people who don't have a highsec-nullsec connection anyway, unless increasing the amounts of neutral and NPC corp freighters getting suicide ganked is really the kind of PVP you were looking for.
And yet, you're commenting authoratively on something you weren't party to. Fact is we've got a game populated by players who know nothing of the 'before times' when titans and bridges didn't exist. Believe me, it was ALL more fun than it is now.
You and the OP are the only people who I have ever heard claim freighter escort was fun, and I doubt he's ever left highsec. You're both managing to miss the point that the only people this would hurt would be smaller alliances too. And the fact that nullsec literally cannot have the industrial capacity to support itself, nor the lack of lowends out there which only makes it worse. Great for suicide gankers and people who run mining bots, awful for everyone else. |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
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Posted - 2013.04.16 11:38:00 -
[146] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote: And the fact that nullsec literally cannot have the industrial capacity to support itself.
What do you think happened in Eve before jump drives?
Do you honestly believe that nullsec was a non-entity, that wars, fleets, blockades and campaigns simply didn't exist? Do you think players all lived in highsec/lowsec and just went on occasional jollies into null to make sure it's still there?
Perhaps the OP and I are the only ones commenting here that have actually experienced both sides of the argument and can compare the two? Ever considered that? You're making sweeping statements as if they're fact based on.... what exactly? You're quite literally trying to tell me that nullsec would failcascade in on itself without jump freighters & jump bridges, yet I can tell you you're wrong. We got on just fine long before all these ******** gimmicks got put in the game and have slowly but surely put a growing stranglehold on all things PvP. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1379
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 12:24:00 -
[147] - Quote
Just because something was viable in the past doesn't mean that it's viable anymore. In the past, if a handful of ships got through, the defense fleet with the freighters could handle them ... these daif they get one ship through your lines/past your scouts/whatever, their entire fleet can be right on top of your freighters. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 12:37:00 -
[148] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Just because something was viable in the past doesn't mean that it's viable anymore. In the past, if a handful of ships got through, the defense fleet with the freighters could handle them ... these daif they get one ship through your lines/past your scouts/whatever, their entire fleet can be right on top of your freighters.
Well...yeah, but that's kinda what we're talking about? |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1379
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 13:11:00 -
[149] - Quote
Fatbear wrote:Velicitia wrote:Just because something was viable in the past doesn't mean that it's viable anymore. In the past, if a handful of ships got through, the defense fleet with the freighters could handle them ... these daif they get one ship through your lines/past your scouts/whatever, their entire fleet can be right on top of your freighters. Well...yeah, but that's kinda what we're talking about?
so, OP wants to bring back a mechanic that worked in the past that won't cut it now (because "no one" had JD-capable ships, or titan bridges or anything like that) ... and this is "good"?
then again, it's early and maybe I'm missing your point... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Fatbear
Starwinders SCUM.
25
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 13:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
The point you're validly making is it wouldn't work now because of cynos and hot dropping (at least, that's how I interpret your meaning when you say "one ship through your lines/past your scouts/whatever, their entire fleet can be right on top of your freighters").
Without jump mechanics, the limiting factor to the removal of jump mechanics isn't an issue....cyclical linking, see? |
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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2350
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Posted - 2013.04.17 05:41:00 -
[151] - Quote
This being a sandbox....
Let those who don't want to use jumpdrives... arrange their little 200 man multi-frighter convoys that last multiple hours for us all to enjoy.
Let those who want to use jumpdrives use them. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Mikhael Taron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.25 07:22:00 -
[152] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:This being a sandbox....
Let those who don't want to use jumpdrives... arrange their little 200 man multi-frighter convoys that last multiple hours for us all to enjoy.
Let those who want to use jumpdrives use them.
Back and glad to see the topic is still alive and kicking.
To The Smug who doubts sneeringly I have ever left hisec: FAIL. I spent plenty of time in Fountain with a nulsec alliance.
All those brags about understanding game mechanics are choice entertainment; thanks to all who thought it made them look guru.
As for the above comment: This being a sandbox.... would mean removal of all the pirates and their bounties, as those NPCs aren't players. Then you would have no need to come to empire space; you would lack the isk to buy anything. Or is the sandbox a selective thing?
You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
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