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RAVEN VS. MEGATHRON

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Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 06:54:00 - [1] An unequal contest if ever there was one.As things currently stand on TQ a megathron has no chance whatsoever against a raven whether at range or close up: firstly it cannot tank the damage of a ravens torpedos and secondly it cannot do enough damage to break the shield tank of a raven with a normal defensive minded setup.It may be possible that a raven can be killed by an extreme gank blasterthron with 5-6 mag fields 2 but in the vast majority of fittings and setup used by pvp pilots the raven will always win even with an inferior skilled pilot in the raven. This can't be a good balance for the game and it seems to me that the raven is still overpowered in pvp terms despite all the whining about the new missiles skills.In my vast experience i would say that as a gunnery specialist with over 13million skillpoints in gunnery and able to use all types of tech 2 weapons - a missiles specialist with a far lower number of combat skillpoints can easily hold his own against me and even possibly win if he flies a raven regardless of the gun turret bs that i choose to fly.I feel that this needs looking at - if u have invested so much time in training gunnery skills u shouldnt be able to be easily outmatched by a missiles character with a years less skilling on his side. In roleplay terms i certianly wouldnt want to be Gallente thats for sure Comments and suggetions welcome - if anyone has a setup in which a megathron can beat a raven i would be pleased to give it a try.
Righteous Fury	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:08:00 - [2] you've GOT to be kidding me.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:09:00 - [3] Wow okay so two battleships went head to head with short range setups and the Raven won? I'm sorry is like the Raven not allowed to ever win in PvP or something? ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:26:00 - [4] lol 2 caldari lovers
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Ginger Magician lol 2 caldari lovers so explain why a raven can't win ANYTHING? what would have been the outcome if you had been in a HAC? what would have been the outcome if you had been in a sniper setup? the raven won a fight close range against another BS? OH NOES! Originally by: TomB Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Mining in a dreadnaught.....Should be banned /signed
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:34:00 - [6] The raven is unbeatable against any turret battleship that armor tanks as it stands atm.Shield is now far too good compared to armor tanking.The only thing i can think that would have a chance and which i will test shortly is a tempest with 800m artillery and shield tanking close range setup but i doubt this will be able to take the damage of a raven but it should do better damage than a megathron
madaluap	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:35:00 - [7] Edited by: madaluap on 17/09/2005 07:37:58 thats a bit odd, even pre-patch killing a raven can be done with electron blaster 2 and not a half decent but a full ubertank in low.. these days im more confident than ever when im flying my mega vs a raven. i will tell you a little trick, which is infact not even a trick. 1. put your mwd on when aproaching when you reach 800 m/s his missiles will start hitting for less. (kin) torps hit for like 344 on your shield! (have done this). 2. dont try to focus too much on damage there is a very thin and i mean thin balance. 3. fit some (2, not more than you can fly domi) nos, actually the same as point 2. dont focus to much on damage. i could easily kill a nosphoon with the standard 4X nos 4X siegebay, same counts for raven with cruisemissiles. i have foughten both in a friendly competition, they knew what i was flying and they setup there ship against my ship, so normally they wouldnt even carry some of that stuff..like freacking tracking disrupters, bastards. 4. there will be a moment when the raven wont have any cap (yes there will) because he has to tank his ass off to sustain, you on the other hand have still some extra capcharges left. summary: its not that hard dude EDIT: spelling errors...arg
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:37:00 - [8] Its not just one fight its a number of fights against pilots that should in theory be hopelessly outclassed against a pilot of my experience and skill point level but they r not because the raven is overpowered
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:41:00 - [9] madal - i doubt u have fought a raven in the last couple of weeks - the difference now is that they r getting the skills maxed up and they r making a big difference In the cases i am talking about i was heavy tanked with best possible equipment hardners/plates/reppers and i had plenty of cap left the damage being done by ravens now is just incredible - far more than even the sentry guns - it is quite untankable for more than a couple of minutes
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Ginger Magician Its not just one fight its a number of fights against pilots that should in theory be hopelessly outclassed against a pilot of my experience and skill point level but they r not because the raven is overpowered Ravens not overpowered dude, it's very good against battleships with torpedoes but it's completely defenseless against smaller ships. That being said, a Megathron should still be able to challenge one 1v1, Megathrons do a lot of DPS as well. Perhaps you are fighting Ravens that are using kinetic/thermal hardeners, if thats the case yes the Raven will probably always win. In actual PvP, you need to give up those resists for EM, as it's your weakest resist and lasers will flat out DESTROY your sorry ass without at least one photon scattering fitted. So before you call for nerfs why don't you ask what your uber raven enemy is fitting, cause if its 2x kinetic 2x thermal 1 xl sb 1x amp, yes you will get your ass served to you easily in a Megathron. ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Mr Floppyknickers	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:45:00 - [11] Edited by: Mr Floppyknickers on 17/09/2005 07:47:26 I think the issue may be the assumption that the raven, being a torp machine and therefore a more range intensive ship, beating a blasterthron, a known and powerful closerange ship, at close range. It'd be like a celestis out missiling a cacaral. That's the angle. Edit: oh lookie, the next nerf-quest begins. See folks, it never stops at one ship, enjoy!
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/09/2005 07:51:45 Originally by: Mr Floppyknickers I think the issue may be the assumption that the raven, being a torp machine and therefore a more range intensive ship, beating a blasterthron, a known and powerful closerange ship, at close range. It'd be like a celestis out missiling a cacaral. That's the angle. torps arent long range in a practical sense. and fyi, the torp raven vs megathron debate has been raging forever, this argument is nothing new, i could take down a megathron with a raven before coldwar just as easy ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.17 07:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Mr Floppyknickers I think the issue may be the assumption that the raven, being a torp machine and therefore a more range intensive ship, beating a blasterthron, a known and powerful closerange ship, at close range. It'd be like a celestis out missiling a cacaral. That's the angle. erm, have you tried to use torps at more range? Originally by: TomB Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Mining in a dreadnaught.....Should be banned /signed
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:17:00 - [14] Torpedos are useless against players at long range. Period. The player will either warp out or, if he's in a long-range ship, own the raven's tank before the first torp reaches him. This means torpedos are only useful at short range except vs. NPCs. Please do not try to equate NPCing to PvP. -Wrayeth
MouseOnMars	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Ginger Magician In my vast experience I'm sorry but am I the only one who found that at least a little bit arrogant. I dunno what went on in this test fight between a mega and a raven, what setups were used, and what skills the pilot had, so I can't really comment on the outcome because I don't have the right kind of information to make a judgement. But I must say that a megathron is more than equally matched in my experience and from what I can tell. For a start, megathrons have the advantage of tech 2 weapon upgrades, drones, and a high DPS as a result. They've also got a good enough facility for armour tank, but that only really starts to get stunning at the expense of weapon upgrades, whereas the Raven can upgrade it's shield tank while still using weapon upgrades, even if they have to be faction or T1. The main unfairness that I see here is with the fact that all the shield capacity upgrades are med slot, whereas armour upgrades are lo slot, which means that a Raven can boost his shield while keeping plenty of lo slots free for weapon upgrades, whereas a Megathron pilot has to choose between defense or offense. That said, all the Blasterthron pilots that I've spoken to have been total nutters, who charge headlong into battle without a second thought. They go for all out damage by just charging right up to the opponent and opening fire. But the stories they return from battle with tell of pretty impressive damage output. I mean, if I had real confidence in my abilities with that kind of setup I'd happily go for it, because the damage output belays the risk. You're talking twice, maybe three times the DPS of a standard tanking Raven, which is way more than they can defend. (I dunno if this is all totally true as I've never tested it out but from what I've heard that's the case)
R31D	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:34:00 - [16] Edited by: R31D on 17/09/2005 08:39:28 I've got a friend who went out into 0.0 one day with his blasterthron. He killed 3 Ravens that day and came back safe. But obviously he must be lying edit: Out of interest, why should one ship be able to easily own another in the same class? Why don't you compare the mega to other ships, why the raven (ok, it might not fair any better, but still)? Free bumpage for all
Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:38:00 - [17] Oh My God... Readers Digest Version - 'Everyone knows that all the Caldari missile boats suck at the moment... so a Raven beating a Megathron is unacceptable'. I wonder what would happen if the Cerberus wound up winning a fight? 'Iceland joins North Korea in nuclear program... more at 10'.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Tovarishch Oh My God... Readers Digest Version - 'Everyone knows that all the Caldari missile boats suck at the moment... so a Raven beating a Megathron is unacceptable'. I wonder what would happen if the Cerberus wound up winning a fight? 'Iceland joins North Korea in nuclear program... more at 10'. hey if you spend 600mil in faction modules and train the missile skills to 5 you can kill stuff with a cerberus! ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Shadowsword	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:40:00 - [19] The problem is that a raven can use both a full (if short term) tank and 5 ballistics. The only weakness of that setup is it's lack of sustainability, but against a single target, however tanked it is, you don't need sustainability when you have 6 weapons with a native rof modifier and 5 damage mods. With the possible exception of a gankageddon melting the raven and then dying once the torps reach it, if it hasn't warped out, no BS can kill a raven in a 1v1 fight.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:47:00 - [20] ya.. raven is uber ;) the only ravens strength is its versatility, and other ships can do it even better. torps, well, might work on sisi but on TQ they suck big time. their fitting req forces u to use just ****** up setups. cruises just dont do good dmg, had a red member in a blaster mega holding my cruises for at least a minute, without getting his tank under 80%, until a 2nd mega came in a finished me.
MouseOnMars	Posted - 2005.09.17 08:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Shadowsword With the possible exception of a gankageddon melting the raven and then dying once the torps reach it, if it hasn't warped out, no BS can kill a raven in a 1v1 fight. WRONG. You fail at eve. You're the first person to've actually "lost" a game without an ending and without being on the client at the time. Congratulations, have this re-used golfing trophy I found. Here is a list of the battleships that can defeat a Raven 1v1: Tempest. Megathron. Armageddon. Dominix. Apocalypse. + all faction and elite battleships. Especially the Machariel, which can cast level 1 sht your pants* upon appearing on the battlefield, causing the Raven pilot to go AFK while he mops up his legs and seat area. And don't say they can't because I've witnessed it in person. That's the whole point of eve - it's not a linear "this ship always beats this ship" because it's far more variable than that. And if you don't understand that then well, like I said, you lose.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:24:00 - [22] MEgathron > Raven. Actual outcome of course depends on player skills involved ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Dreez	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:26:00 - [23] OK, i¦ll try to explaining why the Raven beats the blasterthron. First Round : The Raven does not need tracking which meens that its torps will always hit for full damage besides the resist. -- A Blasterthrons guns are dependent on tracking and to be really really upclose, being that close will screw up your tracking if you¦re going in a to high transversal. Second Round : Ravens also does not need to have an MWD equipped to do its job and therefor always have more cap to tank with, it also never have to use its cap for anything else then tank which leaves the ravenpilot able to focus on which torp is doing the most dmg. -- The Blasterthron is forced to use MWD and webb, which cuts its medslots down to 2. This resulting in only 2 slots to use for either scrambler, sensorbooster, Injector or caprechargers. Blasterthrons also have to spend their allready weakened cap into 3 ! areas which covers 1: Navigatiing, 2: Defense, 3: Offense. Round 3 : As mentioned in the previous round, the raven can fit a very decent tank while also fitting a full rack of nasty launchers. Try fitting a full rack of neutrons and a decent tank on the blasterthron without sacrifising all Mags. Round 4 : Raven covers all 4 dmgtypes which is a huge advantage in 1on1s since you will always do your max dmg. Blasterthrons however, are left with Kin/Therm which the shields allready has good resistance to. Did i forget anything, or do i need to stick it in your eyes so you can see that blasterthrons needs some godforsaken work from TomB & Co to be the CQC-ship its ment to be. Anyone that does not, i dare you to proove me wrong. I might have ATUK in my tag, but i have OC in my DNA
Serret	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:33:00 - [24] A gank blasterthron probably would have beaten your full tank 'thron too, seeing as it could put out nearly twice the damage of a torp raven. Onoes! Nerf blasterthrons!
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:34:00 - [25] Edited by: wierchas noobhunter on 17/09/2005 09:34:46 Originally by: Tovarishch Oh My God... Readers Digest Version - 'Everyone knows that all the Caldari missile boats suck at the moment... so a Raven beating a Megathron is unacceptable'. I wonder what would happen if the Cerberus wound up winning a fight? 'Iceland joins North Korea in nuclear program... more at 10'. raven now is wery nice bs and he can easy take down mega pilot
babylonstew	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:35:00 - [26] Originally by: MouseOnMars [ + all faction and elite battleships. Especially the Machariel, which can cast level 1 sht your pants* upon appearing on the battlefield, causing the Raven pilot to go AFK while he mops up his legs and seat area. im sorry, but that is going in my sig Quoted From MouseOnMars Especially the Machariel, which can cast level 1 sh*t your pants upon appearing on the battlefield
Dreez	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Serret A gank blasterthron probably would have beaten your full tank 'thron too, seeing as it could put out nearly twice the damage of a torp raven. Onoes! Nerf blasterthrons! Ive tried 7 neutrons and 5Mags against a Gankaraven, no chanse. I might have ATUK in my tag, but i have OC in my DNA
Serret	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Dreez Ive tried 7 neutrons and 5Mags against a Gankaraven, no chanse. The claim was that a full damage-blasterthron would have beaten his tank blasterthron, therefore we must nerf all other blasterthrons as well. Plz to read before replying luv ya kthx.
Dreez	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:52:00 - [29] The way i want the blasterthron to be is that if it comes out of warp within combatrange its gonna rock your world, you¦re suppose to think "Might aswell get my coffee and wait for the ensurance", goodbye goodnight... got my point. If were in an Apoc or raven and i see a blasterthron landing ontop of me, i would not mind that. They are suppose to be the most devistating BS out there ffs since they¦re using Quote: No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters . I might have ATUK in my tag, but i have OC in my DNA
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.09.17 09:59:00 - [30] As always in these debates we have two sides: Pro Gallente - We are supposed to be based around close range blaster primarily, more than anyone we move up close and really personal yet we get nothing for it. Why on earth is the (supposedly) long range Caldari better at close range combat? Pro Caldari - For a very long time now, Caldari battleships have been sub-par compared to other battleships. Recently our ability to slaughter small ships were also taken from us and gave us a rude awakening. Why aren't we allowed, in your eyes, to excel in a battleship vs battleship combat area when we've found one? Do you understand what I am getting at? That a Raven has a chance against a Megathron at very close ranges is just completely wrong, but that the Raven, and Caldari in general, doesn't quite excel in any area, and especially not long range, is also wrong. It is an underlying design fault which is the cause of this, where too many rebalancing turns have been taken without enough consideration for the intent of the two races. With the new wave of ship and race specialization and attempts to make content more and more diverse fromt he Devs, soon enough this will have to be examined. I'd love it if most/all Gallente ships were really really good at drone- and close range combat. Caldari's fortÚ is ECM and Missile (that'd be medium to long range damage, but any range up to long range combat capacity) combat. However, that said it will be difficult to balance four different racial pure combat ships against each other, considering that there's only so many (noticably) different permutations that can be aplied to the different ships. We have 6 combat and damage oriented battleships to balance (I'm counting the Apoc here, as it's tanking capacity is not great enough to place it in the misc category along with the Dominix and Scorpion), and they need to share long, medium and short range. One or two are bound to be left out. -- I'm in to murder, arson, and pillaging. I differe from a soldier in nothing but name and allegience.

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