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Rusty Bullethole	Posted - 2005.09.17 17:23:00 - [61] Its funny how some (if not most) players think just because they have allot of Gun SP points they have to beat all those that oppose him/her, without realizing only the weapon used is what the SP applies to (except for the core gun skills) and then comes setup types, ranges player reaction and decission making. Many variables come into play in this game which is one of the many reason Eve-Online is just a great game, now are there BS'ers that are stronger (per say) than others sure, however only if you play to your opponents strengths and not yours. I read so many posts about how they lost or how a type of ship sucks and isnt ment for PvP. The fact is reguardless of the BS if its Raven, Temp, Apoc, Mega ..etc.. they all have their strong and weak spots its how they are played, which is WHY i hate players that just because they "TEST" and the outcome isnt in their favor as they may have hoped for then their setup is useless or the ship they used suck, well DUH! its a "test" the real "TEST" comes in when you fight without warning without pre-setups how well you respond to the situation, warping out is always an alternative knowing when and when not to engage takes knowledge, its just amazing how so many players forget that no ship is really "BEST" per say, yes some ships have their "ROLES" however that does not make them "BEST". anyway just my .02 ISK.
Shaemell Buttleson	Posted - 2005.09.17 17:55:00 - [62] Originally by: MouseOnMars Originally by: Ginger Magician In my vast experience I'm sorry but am I the only one who found that at least a little bit arrogant. No but thats our Ginger.
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:24:00 - [63] I had a mock fight with a corp mate, me in my meg him in his raven. He told me what type of torps he would be firing so I tanked accordingly he knew he was facing a meg so he did the same. The outcome was incredible I had run out of cap and he was into my hull before we stopped, but he had all weapons firing 2/3 cap left and I never got him past 1/2 shield. I was using tech 2 guns he was using t2 launchers. The thing that really bugs me is, I have more sp in gunnery than he has in missles but he kicks my a$$ like i'm a noob. I mean come on tell me thats right the fight should have been a lot closer than that.
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:29:00 - [64] Originally by: Rusty Bullethole Its funny how some (if not most) players think just because they have allot of Gun SP points they have to beat all those that oppose him/her, without realizing only the weapon used is what the SP applies to (except for the core gun skills) and then comes setup types, ranges player reaction and decission making. Many variables come into play in this game which is one of the many reason Eve-Online is just a great game, now are there BS'ers that are stronger (per say) than others sure, however only if you play to your opponents strengths and not yours. I read so many posts about how they lost or how a type of ship sucks and isnt ment for PvP. The fact is reguardless of the BS if its Raven, Temp, Apoc, Mega ..etc.. they all have their strong and weak spots its how they are played, which is WHY i hate players that just because they "TEST" and the outcome isnt in their favor as they may have hoped for then their setup is useless or the ship they used suck, well DUH! its a "test" the real "TEST" comes in when you fight without warning without pre-setups how well you respond to the situation, warping out is always an alternative knowing when and when not to engage takes knowledge, its just amazing how so many players forget that no ship is really "BEST" per say, yes some ships have their "ROLES" however that does not make them "BEST". anyway just my .02 ISK. So what you saying everytime a meg pilot sees a raven he should run.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Hephaesteus Originally by: Rusty Bullethole Its funny how some (if not most) players think just because they have allot of Gun SP points they have to beat all those that oppose him/her, without realizing only the weapon used is what the SP applies to (except for the core gun skills) and then comes setup types, ranges player reaction and decission making. Many variables come into play in this game which is one of the many reason Eve-Online is just a great game, now are there BS'ers that are stronger (per say) than others sure, however only if you play to your opponents strengths and not yours. I read so many posts about how they lost or how a type of ship sucks and isnt ment for PvP. The fact is reguardless of the BS if its Raven, Temp, Apoc, Mega ..etc.. they all have their strong and weak spots its how they are played, which is WHY i hate players that just because they "TEST" and the outcome isnt in their favor as they may have hoped for then their setup is useless or the ship they used suck, well DUH! its a "test" the real "TEST" comes in when you fight without warning without pre-setups how well you respond to the situation, warping out is always an alternative knowing when and when not to engage takes knowledge, its just amazing how so many players forget that no ship is really "BEST" per say, yes some ships have their "ROLES" however that does not make them "BEST". anyway just my .02 ISK. So what you saying everytime a meg pilot sees a raven he should run. should a raven run everytime he sees a megathron? ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Hephaesteus Originally by: Rusty Bullethole Its funny how some (if not most) players think just because they have allot of Gun SP points they have to beat all those that oppose him/her, without realizing only the weapon used is what the SP applies to (except for the core gun skills) and then comes setup types, ranges player reaction and decission making. Many variables come into play in this game which is one of the many reason Eve-Online is just a great game, now are there BS'ers that are stronger (per say) than others sure, however only if you play to your opponents strengths and not yours. I read so many posts about how they lost or how a type of ship sucks and isnt ment for PvP. The fact is reguardless of the BS if its Raven, Temp, Apoc, Mega ..etc.. they all have their strong and weak spots its how they are played, which is WHY i hate players that just because they "TEST" and the outcome isnt in their favor as they may have hoped for then their setup is useless or the ship they used suck, well DUH! its a "test" the real "TEST" comes in when you fight without warning without pre-setups how well you respond to the situation, warping out is always an alternative knowing when and when not to engage takes knowledge, its just amazing how so many players forget that no ship is really "BEST" per say, yes some ships have their "ROLES" however that does not make them "BEST". anyway just my .02 ISK. So what you saying everytime a meg pilot sees a raven he should run. should a raven run everytime he sees a megathron? No the Raven pilot would prob laugh his a$$ off thinking its only a meg.
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:44:00 - [67] Well funnily enough the thread starter is more or less right as far as it goes. I actually spent quite a while on the test server prior to the last mirror trying to kill a competantly flown torp Raven with my Megathron and I only managed to do it with EW trickery. The issue is that the Raven scores full damage hits and can pick the greatest yield ammo and doesn't pay any cap to fire. If its a sensible Raven (ie one with 800 cap charges to power its tank) then there is no way a Megathron will overcome its tank before it dies unless it can do something to interrupt the flow of torps. EW is an option. Smartbombs an option. Raw damage is not an option. I've got maximum skills in gallente BS and weaponry and tech2 drones btw. Its literally impossible to squeeze out more damage than I do with a Mega. So yeah ... in that circumstance the Raven outdamages and out-tanks the Megathron and a blasterthron has no real chance. But then again. I don't think thats actually a bad thing. I like ship differentiation and racial specialty. I like the fact my Mega can blow the crap out of frigs and cruisers and the Raven can't. I like the fact I've got an AB on my rig and a large NOS and a decent tank for reasonable usage. I like the fact I can outlast gankaggedons and tempests and such. I think the Raven torpedo boat loadout with heavy shield tank and low slot ballistic mods is the state of the art in battleship destruction at the moment but it is vulnerable to non battleship attackers and it does have weaknesses. I think the balance is fine as it is and moaning about it is pointless. The poor old caldari have a lot of crap ships as it is and its nice for them to have something they do well. _________________ Shoot Tyrants - join Jericho Fraction!
Garreck	Posted - 2005.09.17 18:53:00 - [68] Originally by: Ginger Magician Yes range can help but it is also pointless as has been said in this thread many times the megathron is supposed to be the most damaging close range battleship in eve and the fact is its not.Yes lets all sit at 40km with our 425 tech 2 rails and see how many ravens u will kill Have u ever heard of warping? There needs to be more med range options in EVE.The geddon i used to fly was great i could kill anyhting within about 10-20km as far as i can see atm there is no feasible med range ship that u can fly lasers being a total joke now as everyone knows.If ur not within 20km there is no argument - im talking about solo 1v1 combat - that is the only real test- any noob can gank at uneven odds -and outside of 20km combat is irrelevant Perhaps the majority of 'thron users are mistaken...perhaps the 'thron does more lend itself to being a rail platform? You're right: you can't scramble from 40km. I'll tell you what you can do, though: you can follow when your opponent warps away. If he safespots, you win by default. If he doesn't, you continually wear him down at each location, eventually killing him. Yes, ravens take a good long time to align for warp. Plenty of time for a proper rail-thron to do wicked enough damage. Patience and persistance. And then there's the simple reality that nobody wants to accept: a 1v1 is about the least common, most impractical combat encounter. Duels are always a bad idea (the pilot who knows more about the opponent's setup will win 9 times out of 10) and how often do combat pilots really find themselves in a 1v1? Small skirmishes are more often the norm...and, yes, a megathron pilot should have some sort of tackler working with him. But we're not talking about running or not...we're talking about the actual damage output of a raven vs a megathron. I'm merely establishing that you are wrong: the Raven does not have a distinct edge on the megathron. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Safid Gorbet	Posted - 2005.09.17 19:10:00 - [69] Just had to post this [ 2005.09.17 07:03:35 ] Ginger Magician > hi [ 2005.09.17 07:03:42 ] Ginger Magician > your raven is ******* overpowered [ 2005.09.17 07:03:47 ] Ginger Magician > a noob owned me just now [ 2005.09.17 07:04:04 ] Safid Gorbet > lol what about the missile nerf? [ 2005.09.17 07:04:11 ] Ginger Magician > there is no nerf [ 2005.09.17 07:04:23 ] Ginger Magician > no turret bs can win against a missiles specialist [ 2005.09.17 07:04:25 ] Ginger Magician > its not fair [ 2005.09.17 07:04:35 ] Ginger Magician > torps just cant be tanked [ 2005.09.17 07:04:51 ] Safid Gorbet > stay away from them then [ 2005.09.17 07:05:02 ] Ginger Magician > that damage u did to me the other day was extraordinary some people just cant deal with the fact that they are not as good as they think they are.
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.17 19:42:00 - [70] I am the best and few would privately dispute it but as things stand atm raven users are unbeateable in 1v1 even though they r far inferior skilled in terms of total combat skillpoints than a player like me.Safid u told me yourself that u have only 3.5mill skilpoints in missiles and the player that owned me in the fight i was reffering to there told me he had 6.5mill sps in missiles and didnt have caldari bs 5. I have no objection to a real specialist missile user with most skills at 4/5 and caldari bs 5 being hard to beat in a raven that is only fair but what about gunnery users - i am approaching now 13.5mill sps and against skilled raven pilots i have no chance to win unless i also fly a raven myself and throw away the years of training gunnery skills - THAT is what i find unfair and object to.You also told me in that convo that megathrons r useless in your opinion and that u had never lost a fight to a megathron pilot - this speaks volumes.
Fred0	Posted - 2005.09.17 19:53:00 - [71] If you land really close and have total gank fitting you should win.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.17 19:53:00 - [72] Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute ROFL ------ FERRET DEMOCRACY
keepiru	Posted - 2005.09.17 19:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute Im printing that out and pinning it to my wall. Whenever I feel down I'll have something hilarious to look at. ------------- Axe the Thorax's drone bay.
Garreck	Posted - 2005.09.17 20:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute it Oof. You must be a glutton for punishment, mate. Making statements like this whilst simultaneously maintaining that a Raven is unbeatable in 1v1 is just asking for abuse. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan.
Dimitri Forgroth	Posted - 2005.09.17 20:07:00 - [75] Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 17/09/2005 20:06:48 Thanks, you made my day. Originally by: HippoKing YES! i am in antoher person;s sig /marks it off taking over the world one sig at a time \o/ DPS Sheet
Megadon	Posted - 2005.09.17 20:49:00 - [76] Man, the naivety of believing that a head to head fight between two like classes of ships determines what is unbalanced and balanced is astounding! The game just doesn't work that way! Yet people post this stuff everyday. Following the same logic, you could make this ridiculous arguement about every ship in Eve. Ginger, you sound like you would only be happy if all cruisers had the same DPS output and tanking ability, all BS's had the same DPS output and tanking etc etc etc. Let's make all ship classes of all races the same in damage dealt and tanking! That would suck. Raven's get taken down by Megathrons, assault frigs, all kinds of ships every day. But, because you have one encounter and get pwned, you whine. Ya big sissy. Ginger - a perfect example of someone who can shoot but can't think.
Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.09.17 21:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Ginger Magician I am the best and few would privately dispute it. This comment has single-handedly summed up the quality of this thread... while simultaneously entertaining it's readers. We all thank you for the clarification.
Bracius	Posted - 2005.09.17 22:04:00 - [78] SMARTBOMBS DONT KILL THE TORPS. I just contributed 0 to this topic :)
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.09.17 22:11:00 - [79] what the hell is a smartbomb gonna do when you are 2km away fro ma raven? Only thing your gonna do is bomb your own drones, so smartbomb ain't an option here tbh (I'm talking blasters). raven with cruise and light tank > 425mm t2 with antimatter
Gronsak	Posted - 2005.09.17 22:23:00 - [80] u guys are missing the point i dont think the guy who started teh thred is complaining that a mega doesnt beat a raven] he is saying, taht the mega in IDEAL conditions, will not beat the raven my t2 kitted blasterthron with neutrons and a decent tank CANT beat a raven if its setup correctly to prove this point i got our ceo in his mega with 10mil SP in gunnry and galante BS 5 (total 27mils SP) with a blaster fitting to fight a 10mil SP raven pilot. and they started at 5km optimal for the blasters. guess what, the mega was pawned shield tanks with cap injecter is jsut too uber atm, as u can run ur shield booster for ever using cap injecters with 800s TBH somehow make cap injecters impossible to fit on shield tanked ships
Shaemell Buttleson	Posted - 2005.09.17 22:56:00 - [81] Originally by: Gronsak u guys are missing the point i dont think the guy who started teh thred is complaining that a mega doesnt beat a raven] he is saying, taht the mega in IDEAL conditions, will not beat the raven my t2 kitted blasterthron with neutrons and a decent tank CANT beat a raven if its setup correctly to prove this point i got our ceo in his mega with 10mil SP in gunnry and galante BS 5 (total 27mils SP) with a blaster fitting to fight a 10mil SP raven pilot. and they started at 5km optimal for the blasters. guess what, the mega was pawned shield tanks with cap injecter is jsut too uber atm, as u can run ur shield booster for ever using cap injecters with 800s TBH somehow make cap injecters impossible to fit on shield tanked ships I am sorry but it doesnt prove anything. Yes the Raven probably is the best 1v1 in close up situation. 1 type of ship will ultimately be king in certain types of engagements. But there are ways to counter it. If you used racial jammers on a raven or even multis for that matter you will totaly neutralise it as siege launchers can't fire FOF and if it was fitted with cruise launchers and it had FOF cruise any BS pilot with decent skills should be able to tank that. As for cap injectors I am not sure how many a raven pilot could carry and also have a decent amount of torps or cruise with them. They take up loads of room. At the end of the day there is not going to be 1 BS that will win all engagements every time. Eve is like the scissors paper stone game and half the battle is second guessing what your opponents will use against you. There are plenty of pilots who will go head to head with ravens in other types of battleships and win just as the Raven will win in some battles. Ew is certainly 1 answer to this and as Ginger said it's hard to go up against Scorps as well. No person in another BS will ever say that a scorp will totaly own another BS though as the DOT possible on a Scorp is small compared to all others. A pilot flying a Tristan in syndicate who was only a few months old totaly owned pilots in Af's and Intis in the last week who had at least double the experience and points. I dont know the details but when the guy was finaly killed in his ship the killmail showed he had quite an unusuall setup that nobody would really have expected and therefore hadn't setup their ships to counter. On paper and with the skills no way should this guy have won ever against these T2 frigs and their T2 weaponry but he did. Take a leaf out of his book and adapt or dont engage a Raven in circumstances you know you will lose.
danneh	Posted - 2005.09.17 23:31:00 - [82] My corp mates were testing the other day a raven pilot with maxxed skills couldnt take down his megathron unless using faction modules.
Magnum III	Posted - 2005.09.18 04:58:00 - [83] So if you think a RAVEN is so good then why don't you just get a RAVEN? Either way the MEGATHRON will get you the babes! It is one sweet looking ride. P.S. Magnum III AKA Magnum VII
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2005.09.18 05:11:00 - [84] Yes im perfectly happy to fly a raven once ccp give me back my 13.5million sps in gunnery and let me reallocate them to missiles skills i will do so too and pigs might fly one day too
Stormfront	Posted - 2005.09.18 05:28:00 - [85] Gotta agree with Ginger Magician here. BEfore Coldwar/missile "nerf", my gallente spec char could beat a Raven using cap boosters and 1 large smartbomb. Needed the cap boosters and TWO large reps with 3 hardners to keep the tank long enough to kill Raven. That Raven was flown by my alt with Caldari BS 3 and Torps 3. After the patch, Torps 4, Caldari BS 3, all new missile skills at 1 or 2, my Megathron loses 8/10 fights when I go up close. The Raven doesn't even fit cap boosters, the MEGATHRON in tank mode ALWAYS has to. And both my accounts can fly Caldari BS to some extent lvl 3 and 4. But they are specced in Amarr and Gallente. And unfortunately, the blaster fitted Megathron is a VERY weak/niche ship. That doesn't even do exceptionally well in its on niche.
Kalast Raven	Posted - 2005.09.18 08:30:00 - [86] Originally by: Ginger Magician Edited by: Ginger Magician on 17/09/2005 16:12:26 With a 50% hardener i was being hit for 247 with bane torps - Get a 55% hardener ------- K. Raven
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.18 08:34:00 - [87] Originally by: Kalast Raven Originally by: Ginger Magician Edited by: Ginger Magician on 17/09/2005 16:12:26 With a 50% hardener i was being hit for 247 with bane torps - Get a 55% hardener Coz that extra 5% makes all the difference.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.09.18 08:54:00 - [88] Point is, the Mega can out-range the Raven. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.18 09:31:00 - [89] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Point is, the Mega can out-range the Raven. So what!!! Will a Raven pilot lose his tank at range, can a meg use his extra drones and will the meg pilot be able to scramble him. Go on have a guess. For the best short range ship in exsistance the meg sucks to Raven pilots with less skills.
Rage Hander	Posted - 2005.09.18 09:56:00 - [90] Edited by: Rage Hander on 18/09/2005 09:57:06 Raven can deal HUGE damage, and ANY type of damage. It's tank is awsome! Do not use so much cap. Can use drones. Can solo lvl4 missions. You can do whatever you want even with not so high skills. Short Range Megathron: can't tank, MUST use MWD and webber, while approaching to optimal range is almost dead, because of all incoming missiles, use A LOT of cap! can do ONLY kin/therm damage!!! If use drones they will be all dead in a couple of seconds Long Range Megathron: can't tank, MUST use long range ammo (like iron) and those ammo have a ridicule damage!! can't beat raven's tank! Can't use drones at that range! Megathron sux at any range. Raven is overpowered. Full stop. And for those who said raven can't beat little ships... that's not true! If at range it can do it easily, if not... do you know what smartbombs are?? 1 or 2 can easily destroy any frigates/cruisers, no matter how many they are! Then the launchers can destroy anything else! I don't think raven should be nerfed, but at least megathron should have more cap, more armor, more efficient ammo!! (more damage or VARIOUS damage)

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