I recall during the FF recorded coverage that in the Animation Q&A one of the devs mentioned somethig along he lines that the next expansion will be having DX 11 features.

I might have miss heard, or CCP is finally moving from DX 9 graphics.

That doesn't sound right, as our Win XP users would have issues.

Nothing says lack of progress like running antiquated systems.

Seriously, if EVE cant feature state of the art assets becasue of Windows XP - wow

I cant believe people still run XP. I mean, damn, didnt Windows stop supporting XP like 5 years ago? I ould be wrong, but If they are still supporting it, that cant be doing so for long.

Note: I haven't run XP for a loooong time. Too many programs I use won't run on it as it is so out of date.

Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks

Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/eve-online-and-dust-514-continue-to-grow-in-harmony-as-odyssey-uprising-and-eve-fanfest-approach/

[...] GÇ£WeGÇÖve actually gone through some pretty radical transformations on the technology through [EVE's first] 10 years,GÇ¥ Fannar explains. The PC MMO has transitioned over time from DirectX 9 to DirectX 11, which CCP has up and running in-house. [...]

Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks

If they were even close to moving to DX11, it would be impossible to miss. So no, they're not.

Don't you dare tell my wife that.

Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks

Really?
What "Programs" are u talking about, that only run under Vista/Win7/Win8 or do u mean "Apps" for Win8 metro thinggy?


I'm also interested in what actual DX11 features EvE could use, except for the sleeker more faster API calls.

I guess tessellation maybe, but this also works to some degree under DX9.

When the time comes. All they have to do is make dx11 an optional executable. Everyone's happy. Tesselation in space would be a site to see.

So i keep reading about CCP changing the lightning-system of our beloved Eve in the next expansion. I would appreciate more details on that. But: If they are creating a new lighting-system still running on DX9... meh. I don't hope they do.

That works in World of Warcraft. NOT in EVE. Supporting two graphics pipelines requires more staff. As otherwise you end up spending valuable dev time trying to figure out why some feature works in DX9 but not DX11 or vise versa. Such issues can affect the sandbox.

Not everything in gaming can be a checkbox. WoW gets away with it because that game brings in brazillions of dollars.

When it's a choice between having what are already pretty good graphics and making the game unplayable for a large number of people (and not necessarily just those people running XP) then the answer is quite obviously "no you aren't getting your tesselation, now get over it."

personally I find it sort of ridiculous that we are still being dragged down by XP, I admit it was one of the best OS ever made, but now a days windows 7 works just as good if not way better, and a DX11 card is worth what? 50$. last I hear only 5% of the people is sticking to XP on eve.

maybe CCP could risk sacrifying those and in return become more modern and get a new influx of players that have been put off due to performance and shiny issues, lets admit it... EVE runs on a DX engine that is stone age old by now...

That doesn't sound right, as our Win XP users would have issues.

Windows XP WAS an amazing OS. Well ahead of it's time and it's stability was what propelled entire industries forward.

However recently it is doing little more than slowing everything down.


The issue is more to do with the fact that for hardware such as sound and graphics XP and modern windows systems are completely different. Forcing drivers to be written for those who simply refuse to upgrade. When XP support is fully dropped next year it will mean that there will only ONE overall driver system that has to be supported and that ought to do a great deal to improve PC gaming.

For DX11 it get's complicated. WoW has had a DX11 rendering system for years now. Simply because it is faster. For EVE however an issue caused by supporting two graphics systems can affect the sandbox for a time. An example can be looked at as the update that caused first generation Intel Atom based netbooks to be unable to open EVE. At first it did not seem like much but many were using the inexpensive hardware to do EVE activities at work.

The point I am trying to say is that when the time for DX11 comes.. It needs to be a complete switch in my opinion. And the timing of such is crucial. People are going to have to buy new laptops (desktops can be upgraded with a 20-40 USD card for DX11 these days) And doing it to speed things up like WoW will not convince them of the worth. it has to involve massive visual improvements in my opinion.



Please educate yourself about the difference between Direct X 9 and Direct X 11.

DX11 is more efficient than DX9 so I personally don't think it is about multiple clients.

People latched onto XP as a finally stable version of Windows like it was a life preserver in a sea of stormy OS's.

It's easy to overlook how buggy and more importantly how insecure it is when it runs halfway decently.

Note: I haven't run XP for a loooong time. Too many programs I use won't run on it as it is so out of date.

Nvidia had DX11 hardware in 2010
AMD had DX11 hardware in 2009

It is now May 2013. It is likely to be next year before CCP would even announce a switch to DX11. (A good time with XP finally being dropped by Microsoft)

So what?

EvE has a ton of oldschool players. Unfortunately, they are unwilling and/or unable to upgrade from XP. I think the saying "you can't teach a old dog new tricks" definately applies. Even though the differences between XP and windows 7 are virtually non-existant. I wouldn't recomend windows 8, as the difference would likely blow their minds. They don't even release service packs for XP anymore, its so outdated. They're literally leaving their systems vunerable to modern advancements, all because of their attachment to what they are used to.

Seriously, XP people, upgrade your rigs. You're holding all of EvE back from sweet modern graphics. We don't want to have to wait for you to all die off before it happens!

I'm saying that a lot of people are unable to upgrade, and you wanting your shinies isn't enough justification to force people to spend money they may not have or simply stop playing.

Indeed. Though if money for those people is seriously that tight, maybe they should reconsider their budget and stop playing anyway. MMOs subs should always come last in a budget for a responsible person.

I'm saying that a lot of people are unable to upgrade, and you wanting your shinies isn't enough justification to force people to spend money they may not have.

Do the following things, CCP:

1) Switch certain game graphics assets to DX11 (Shaders, Tesselation)

and

2) Release the High Resolution Texture pack


I guarantee it will bring many more players to the game.

GǪat the end of the day, there's simply not much of a reason for them to go for DX11 at this stage.

Sure, they will work on it internally, but rushing it out before DX9 dips below, say, 5% of he install-base is just pointless.

I guarantee forcing both of these changes will force many players away from the game.
If they're introduced now they need to be optional.

I guarantee forcing both of these changes will force many players away from the game.
If they're introduced now they need to be optional.

I agree that unless they are willing to all in to make full use of DX11. It is not worth it.

DX9 use is not a metric tho in my opinion. DX9 Is due to XP and XP is out in 2014.

Ho yes please explain me how much secure how much stable and how much performing XP is over Win8, yeah, me would like to have a good laugh.

Xp was an awesome OS just like you said in a time where most OS's were bullcrap but now I think I can safely say Win8 is just a pure little beast when you put some effort to adapt or just use a 3rd party little addon that makes if just awesome.

If you only play with your PC, use some light exell stuff, agenda etc you know, small stuff, yeah Xp is still ok, my smartphone does it too and I can even play HD films/vids on it...
Try to run some professional software with heavy calculations (architecture or engineering) on XP and the same on Win8 to see the difference, it's really amazing how perceptible this difference is.

So you're fine with forcing a lot of people to pay several hundred dollars (at least) just to continue playing? But it's okay, right? Cause it's not like you have to do anything to get all the shinies you want.

I seriously doubt CCP feels the same way. You can either get a job with CCP to help them develop an optional DX 11 client, or you can shut up and wait for them to do so, or you can just shut up and deal with it.

Yeah, I'm sure the number of people who were using Gen 1 Atoms comes anywhere close to the number of people running DX11 incompatible hardware.
Get real.

I'm saying that a lot of people are unable to upgrade, and you wanting your shinies isn't enough justification to force people to spend money they may not have or simply stop playing.

How about you shut up and deal with it and upgrade your toaster, or go back to playing Pong

Just please start thinking about what you can do IF they decide to make a DX11 only client and give you hopefully a very long heads up on it.

All I'm gettin at is that when the amount of new subs lost becomes greater then subs lost to upgrading the product, its time to upgrade the product.

I was PISSED when they nixed the linux client. Which was also the classic graphics client. They didn't go under then, and more people play the game now.

CCP has exact figures on how many of their subscribers that are running which OS.

No amount of shouting in either direction is going to change those figures.

EvE has a ton of oldschool players. Unfortunately, they are unwilling and/or unable to upgrade from XP. I think the saying "you can't teach a old dog new tricks" definately applies. Even though the differences between XP and windows 7 are virtually non-existant. I wouldn't recomend windows 8, as the difference would likely blow their minds. They don't even release service packs for XP anymore, its so outdated. They're literally leaving their systems vunerable to modern advancements, all because of their attachment to what they are used to.

Seriously, XP people, upgrade your rigs. You're holding all of EvE back from sweet modern graphics. We don't want to have to wait for you to all die off before it happens!

Only if you pay to upgrade it for me. Why should I have to pay more just because you want a graphics update?
Go play Crysis 3 if you want cutting edge graphics.
You're the one who should shut up and deal with it.

That's a bit of a false dichotomy, though. There's nothing to suggest that they gained any more subscribers just because they upgraded to a DX9 path, and the reason they didn't go under was exactly because they didn't just go DX9 GÇö they offered it to those who wanted it and could use it, and retained the old path for those who could not until the number of people in that category was so small that it was lost in the noise of other lost subscribers.

Also, trying to shore up (short-term) numbers by wowing people with graphics that, in the end, don't matter much when hidden behind all those windows (or when zoomed out to give a good tactical perspective) and which are not a long-term source of retention, at the cost of people who have invested lots of time GÇö to say nothing of multiboxing alt accounts GÇö is a pretty bad idea. The notion that you can exchange your old customer base for a new one GÇö even partly GÇö is fairly well disproven these days.

Anyway , the main lesson from Trinity was that dual rendering paths suck. Doubly so if it means you have to duplicate every effort in adjusting or adding graphical assets. In fact, it was rather amazing how long they kept the classical client going when you consider the added workload.

I would suggest slowly trying to upgrade now so that you don't have to be so sour in threads talking about and speculating about Direct X 11.

and you are the reason the rest of us who have invested time and money building or buying our rigs so we can play games on constant 60fps with beautiful visuals have to suffer below par standards.

I didn't force you to invest your time and money. That was your choice. If you knew the state of graphics in EVE and upgraded your rig past what was necessary to run it anyway, and are now demanding that CCP improve the graphics to justify your purchase, then you're an absolute moron.

Does improving visual quality require switching to a version of DirectX that a significant number of players are unable to run?
If not, then CCP isn't at the point where this is actually a serious issue.

Right now all you people are really saying is that you're upset you don't have tessellation because your ultra powerful gaming computer automatically entitles you and you want everyone who can't run DX11 to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars upgrading their machines or buying new ones just so you can have it.

I would, if my graphics card weren't soldered directly to the motherboard.

Well, you're going to have to upgrade or get a new computer sometime.

or are you saying CCP should never improve the eve client so you can use the same pc for eve forever?

Does improving visual quality require switching to a version of DirectX that a significant number of players are unable to run?
If not, then CCP isn't at the point where this is actually a serious issue.

Right now all you people are really saying is that you're upset you don't have tessellation because your ultra powerful gaming computer automatically entitles you and you want everyone who can't run DX11 to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars upgrading their machines or buying new ones just so you can have it.

I didn't force you to invest your time and money. That was your choice. If you knew the state of graphics in EVE and upgraded your rig past what was necessary to run it anyway, and are now demanding that CCP improve the graphics to justify your purchase, then you're an absolute moron.

Yay an excuse to buy a new PC that the capitals expenditures committee (also known as "The Wife") might actually accept. Apparently "Because I want one" remains unconvincing.

I didn't force you to invest your time and money. That was your choice. If you knew the state of graphics in EVE and upgraded your rig past what was necessary to run it anyway, and are now demanding that CCP improve the graphics to justify your purchase, then you're an absolute moron.

There are many many people who will never again buy a dx9 game.

They will have to upgrade again, its just how the industry works.

Eve has the potential to be absolutely breathtaking, but you oxygen thieves need to either nut up or shut up. and catch the rest of us up in 2013 not 2003.

GǪand the many people who will judge a game on its DirectX version rather than on its gameplay won't stick around for the long haul of EVE anyway.

GǪwhich is why it's so common. Oh wait, it's not. You upgrade if it provides an advantage; DX11 offers some performance, but only two visual enhancements (that aren't even required in DX11 hardware) in the form of SM5 and tesselation. The former is a stronger reason than the latter, but it's the latter (rather unspectacular) part that everyone assumes will be a selling point.

It already is, and moving to DX11 wouldn't change it much. That's the whole problem: the visual benefits aren't really there, and especially aren't big enough to justify alienating a still-sizeable chunk of the player base.

XP is still supported by Microshaft till April 2014. So no more security updates after that time. People will have to bite the bullet and upgrade after that or suffer an ever increasingly insecure platform

Nothing says lack of progress like running antiquated systems.

Seriously, if EVE cant feature state of the art assets becasue of Windows XP - wow

I cant believe people still run XP. I mean, damn, didnt Windows stop supporting XP like 5 years ago? I ould be wrong, but If they are still supporting it, that cant be doing so for long.

The SM3 requirment pushed me out of EvE for 6 months I think a further grapics requiement would push me out longer

Just yesterday I have read that as of now Win XP accounts for 30% of the Windows installations worldwide.

What uses more power, a car that is 50% efficient and produces 200 HP or a car that is 90% efficient and produces 500HP?

I'm saying that a lot of people are unable to upgrade, and you wanting your shinies isn't enough justification to force people to spend money they may not have or simply stop playing.

(desktops can be upgraded with a 20-40 USD card for DX11 these days)

Can you contract me 2 plexes so i can upgrade.

Glad the devs disagree 100% and already have DX11 working.

What surviving DX8 games are there and what is their subscriber base looking like?

I disagree about saying the visual enhancement would be small.

Technology demonstrations based on computing power that almost nobody has doesn't translate to a compelling reason to force a change on everyone.

Not to Justify my purchase, to Justify everyone's purchase. and CCP need to improve graphics to a quality that is expected of a modern game today. but they can't, i am sure they want to, but people running outdated rigs are holding a lot of us back.


for example a GTX 560ti can now be bought for less than -ú100 ($158)
Add 8gb of ram -ú23 ( $35 dollars )

coupled with a semi decent processor you have something capable of running eve on high end at 60fps. you can't use the argument that its too expensive because it clearly is not.

So what?

I don't see why people let their computers fall so far behind. Do you really enjoy logging into a game that looks like a Nintendo game from 1989? And don't tell me that bullcrap that you can't shell out the money for upgrades. What are you living on government support or something?

So upgrade?

It's not that difficult, welcome to the world of PC gaming, where you HAVE to upgrade every once in awhile. A GTX 560Ti, a kickass card for what it is, is $170 on Newegg.

How many times does it need to be said that the OS isn't the only restriction?
I'm running Windows 7. Still can't do DX11.

Ok. What visual enhancement are you envisioning that will make a significant impact and which can't be done under DX9?

... running windows 7 requires DX11 support..., at the very least 10.1... othertwise means you are running windows 7 without any driver for your GPU.

less client lag? more performance even with the same graphics? a better framework for multithreading? and all that base to work with when creating future shinies? I believe those are way more than enough arguments to switch.

So you're fine with forcing a lot of people to pay several hundred dollars (at least) just to continue playing? But it's okay, right? Cause it's not like you have to do anything to get all the shinies you want.

They don't have to spend anything. They just need to update their windows verson to a modern one of their choice. They can stick with DX9 if they like, or if their systems can't handle modern graphics. At least that way, everyone else can have the choice to run on the higher graphics, rather than being held back by people living in the stoneage.

I will not be satisfied until Eve looks like this.

I'm saying that a lot of people are unable to upgrade, and you wanting your shinies isn't enough justification to force people to spend money they may not have or simply stop playing.

if you cannot spend 30 USD for video card you should not waste your time in internet game. Use this resource to become more sufficient in REAL LIFE instead.

It doesn't ******* matter how cheap video cards are. I would have to buy an entirely new computer.

It doesn't ******* matter how cheap video cards are. I would have to buy an entirely new computer.

I hope you never decide to buy a laptop replacement or all in one in the future. If it does not have a PCI Express X16 slot it should not be considered.

And what am I supposed to do with this graphics card?
You seem to think I have a place to put it.

another thing to note why they might not update to Dx11 right away if at all is not so much windows xp users Linux & Mac users would be completely cut off and forced to go out and buy windows and or vmware + windows to play the game. Sense wine does not support all of Dx 11 functions actually it supports very little.

Really?
What "Programs" are u talking about, that only run under Vista/Win7/Win8 or do u mean "Apps" for Win8 metro thinggy?


I'm also interested in what actual DX11 features EvE could use, except for the sleeker more faster API calls.

I guess tessellation maybe, but this also works to some degree under DX9.

Windows Vista/XP/Windows 7 have been increasingly unable to operate 'legacy' programs with each new release. Some older XP and Vista releases won't even run on Windows 7 without using Windows XP Compatibility Mode (and I'm not talking about error messages; some of them flat-out won't do anything when they're launched).

And you seem to think I care? Again, welcome to PC gaming.

Can't afford it? Move out.

I don't give a **** what you do or do not care about. Save your **** poor attitude for someone who thinks your opinions are actually worth something.

The real answer to your objection is that, since EVE already has DX9 support, adding an OS query that says, "hey, can I use DX11? No? OK, I'll use DX9" is easy to implement, and a common implementation.

I really strongly doubt that CCP would do a cold upgrade to DX11 only--certainly not before they had data indicating that there was nobody left who couldn't run it.

The idea that PC gamers will always automatically upgrade to high-end kit just to stay up to date, or even buy their PC solely or primarily for its ability to run games, is so five years ago. People really need to get over it: all computers come with some form of graphics acceleration in hardware now, and they're going to want to play games. Deal with it.

That doesn't sound right, as our Win XP users would have issues.

Just dropping by again, to say that Valve still supports DX8 in their games. TF2 regularly has content added which has a DX8 version.

If we get DX11 I'll stop trolling and I'll even become an ISD to fight trolls

Why is that? WoW works fine under wine. It just looks better in windows with the dx11 parts.

Just dropping by again, to say that Valve still supports DX8 in their games. TF2 regularly has content added which has a DX8 version.

Nothing says lack of progress like running antiquated systems.

Seriously, if EVE cant feature state of the art assets becasue of Windows XP - wow

I cant believe people still run XP. I mean, damn, didnt Windows stop supporting XP like 5 years ago? I ould be wrong, but If they are still supporting it, that cant be doing so for long.

It doesn't ******* matter how cheap video cards are. I would have to buy an entirely new computer.

A bunch of odd comments here about XP and such...

DX 11? Optional I suppose and something to look forward to for those with systems that can handle it.

Hell, yesterday Metro: Last Light went live -- min system = DX 9. Far Cry 3 December 2012 -- min system = DX 9c...

Crysis 3 is one of the extremely few games released with a minimum spec of DX 11 and it's audience is a lot thinner than it could be. It never hit "top selling" bracket for games nor even came close to the sales numbers that EA was looking for from that title.

CCP might lose a lot of customers trying to be that radical and I don't see them trying to pull that on people. As an option for those of us who would like it? Sure but not as a requirement.

A reminder to those talking about 'shiny graphics' & 'why should we upgrade for just shiny graphics'
CCP's tessellation Demo entailed not just a graphics visual but a change to the physics engine. Meaning we get rid of the crazy big bump hit boxes, and actually get skin collisions instead. This is a big change to the game, and a massive quality of life improvement.

Hey James Amril-Kesh, you know so long as they don't actually use any features over DX10.1 then a DX11 client would still work on your ancient piece of trash?

Did you know that even if they enable the DX11 features that you don't use those features might be optional?

Try knowing something, about anything before ever opening your mouth again. I'm embarassed to have once be

They say at least 38% on the internet still use XP! Unreal.

What I think few people here are realizing is that an Upgrade straight to Dx11 without a Dx9 path means anyone using mac or linux could no longer play eve ( unless they want to pay for a windows license for their computer) as neither supports dx11. Also any computer that currently doesn't have a dx11 card or run xp couldn't run it. I think if you add up all of those numbers you will quickly see that its not worthwhile for CCP to upgrade to DX11 right now cold turkey.

Ya i said the same thing. Actually if they dropped DX support completely and went to open gl it does also support tessellation and all those little DX features that people want. Not to mention they dont screw 1/3 there player base (not sure how many actual mac and linux users there are.) out of playing the game. If they did move to full Dx 11 without a way for mac and us linux users to play id just quit subbing. Cause i sure ant paying for windows.

Stop adding things that make large fleet fights lag thanks

Again, its called "open GL" for a reason. MAC and Linux both use it.

It's not in my budget at all. People seem to want to force it on me, though.

You're just being contrary for the sake of it.

Any PC over 10 years old should just die in a pall of blue smoke and the faint smell of Ozone.

Seriously for well under a grand you can have an i5K, water cooling, GTX 670's, SSDs and 16+ Gig RAM

Why drive that shitbox when you can drive something that doesn't suck?

So you know exactly how CCP would implement DX11, do you? You know for a fact DX11 features would be optional?

Wait, what? Please tell me how you can have GTX 670's (plural), water cooling, etc. for well under a grand. I'm not saying you are lying, I would genuinely like to know, as I'm building a new rig soon. I mean, one gtx 670 is a little over $300 by itself...

My 18 month old rig cost <$500 then, <$300 now. While I see and understand the point you are trying to make, you are exaggerating it.

The way I understood it was that games which require DirectX 11 cannot run on hardware that supports only DX9, or even DX10 for that matter, even if the operating system supports DX11 and DX11 is installed.

If I'm wrong about this, please do tell me. I suppose I could "obtain" Crysis 3 to find out for myself, but I'm afraid of my laptop exploding.

to those who say they can not afford a decent rig, all I have to say, is that if you have that kind of economic struggle... you shouldn't be spending time and money and eve and instead should be working more to get some more money.

I say this as someone who works on a third world country working half time and yet I make enough to build an enthusiast rig...