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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |

El 1974
Green Visstick High Green Rhino
84
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:00:00 -
[331] - Quote
Ok. I'll throw some text at you just to try to show you how it is a bit more complicated.
The first thing where your statement was oversimplified concerns the available resources and supply. You should realize that the available supply depends on how many times ice anomalies get cycled each day. In theory (with sufficient harvesting speed), ice anomalies can be mined 6 times a day. That means that in theory hisec can supply 96% of all ice where it currently supplies only 94%. So even though there is a finite resource per day (it is a renewable resource), that does not automaticly mean that there is insufficient supply to meet demand. In fact there already is a finite amount of ice available in Eve, but only a small fraction of all of this is extracted.
The problem is that in Eve not all those available resources are extracted. Available resources are irrelevant when players choose not to extract them. I think the correct economic term for this is 'Economically available suypply'. In my opinion harvesting speed is a relevant factor in this economically available supply and therefore has an effect on pricing.
Another complication is that how much ice is extracted depends on what players do. Harvesting speed and price are both variables that motivate players (isk/hr), but what will happen with Odyssey cannot be predicted. Nobody (incl CCP) knows how much ice will be extracted after Odyssey. (Someone might even be crazy enough to grab a destroyer and shoot some ice miners.)
Furthermore you should realize is that you focuss too much on hisec. Some ice will be mined outside hisec. As a result pricing may be affected by what happens outside hisec. |

Danni stark
431
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:20:00 -
[332] - Quote
and pretty much none of what you just wrote has anything to do with cycle times. you have an opinion that it does, but that's it. you didn't provide any evidence to support that opinion.
on the contrary, if an ice anomaly produces 12500 units of ice a day, cycle time doesn't change that and hence that actually does support the assumption that cycle time is as relevant to supply as a chocolate pudding is to a badger. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |

Lyza Kimbo
Cat Scratch Fever
11
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Posted - 2013.05.31 01:00:00 -
[333] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Ok. I'll throw some text at you just to try to show you how it is a bit more complicated.
The first thing where your statement was oversimplified concerns the available resources and supply. You should realize that the available supply depends on how many times ice anomalies get cycled each day. In theory (with sufficient harvesting speed), ice anomalies can be mined 6 times a day.
Not really. With a 4-hour respawn delay, there's room for six of those yeah. But you haven't allowed any time for the actual mining. Even if you only allow 12-15 minutes for a horde of raging ice miners to slag down 2500 blocks of ice, there's not room for six complete cycles in a day. I'm nitpicking a bit here, but I think the difference is significant. In truth, I imagine five or maybe five-and-a-half cycles a day is far more realistic.
El 1974 wrote: That means that in theory hisec can supply 96% of all ice where it currently supplies only 94%.
Ah, pardon my skepticism, but do you have some numbers to back that up?
El 1974 wrote: So even though there is a finite resource per day (it is a renewable resource), that does not automaticly mean that there is insufficient supply to meet demand. In fact there already is a finite amount of ice available in Eve, but only a small fraction of all of this is extracted.
That depends on your definition of "available"
El 1974 wrote: The problem is that in Eve not all those available resources are extracted. Available resources are irrelevant when players choose not to extract them. I think the correct economic term for this is 'Economically available suypply'. In my opinion harvesting speed is a relevant factor in this economically available supply and therefore has an effect on pricing.
When everybody gets an across-the-board doubling of ice harvesting speed, there is no competitive advantage to anyone. The one situation I can think of in which your assertion might be true would be ninja ice mining. The ability to get in, **** the ice belt twice as fast, and GTFO will make a difference. But is ninja ice mining even viable?
El 1974 wrote: Another complication is that how much ice is extracted depends on what players do. Harvesting speed and price are both variables that motivate players (isk/hr), but what will happen with Odyssey cannot be predicted. Nobody (incl CCP) knows how much ice will be extracted after Odyssey. (Someone might even be crazy enough to grab a destroyer and shoot some ice miners.)
Furthermore you should realize is that you focuss too much on hisec. Some ice will be mined outside hisec. As a result pricing may be affected by what happens outside hisec.
Facetious comments aside, you're absolutely correct in saying that none of us know for sure WTF is going to happen.
"You focus too much on hi-sec" is a personal opinion. The rest of this is a truism. "Some ice will be mined outside hi-sec", egad! What a blindingly brilliant observation! I mean, really. Did you figure that out all by yourself, or did the co-pilot help? :)
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dreadshane
Hell or HiWater
0
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:21:00 -
[334] - Quote
Look I think you're making this much harder then it has to be. Just have Ice spon in mission belts, vary the size to the mission lvl. Do this in all systems, not just the standard ice systems. It just seems simpler then all this other stuff
The more I think about this, the better it sounds. You could do this with alot of the other resourses, It would sure make Bot/gankers life harder. It would end the reset race that goes on right after downtime, that makes being a partime player not even want to bother trying to scan.
Maybe its time we looked passed our own pockets, and do something that would be better for the game as a whole. |

El 1974
Green Visstick High Green Rhino
84
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Posted - 2013.06.04 20:16:00 -
[335] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:El 1974 wrote:Danni stark wrote:largely irrelevant. ice mining is still more accommodating to the afk playstyle than ore ever will. The difference between being "more accomadating to the afk playstyle than ore" and "you can go afk until your cargo is full" can be measured in quite a few miner accounts that will lapse. but as i just demonstrated by basic mathematics, you can do that. let me do it again just so you're clear. high sec ice asteroid, ~150 units of ice, that's 150000m3 of ice. mackinaw's ore bay, 35000m3. 150000 > 35000. as such, you can go afk until your cargo is full, just like you can now. except, only for half as long, but you can still do it. Could you please demonstrate how this works in an ice anomaly, I can't seem to do it. Somehow the anomaly is empty before my cargo is full. |

Dave Stark
3077
|
Posted - 2013.06.04 21:24:00 -
[336] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Could you please demonstrate how this works in an ice anomaly, I can't seem to do it. Somehow the anomaly is empty before my cargo is full.
works exactly the same as it did pre patch, darlin'. |

marVLs
168
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Posted - 2013.06.05 11:30:00 -
[337] - Quote
CCP Fozzie please tell something about systems that have more than one Ice belt before Odyssey. Are now every system that have Ice belt is limited to only one? Because from many hours i don't se other belts respawning in system that have before 3 Ice belts  |

Dave Stark
3078
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Posted - 2013.06.05 11:38:00 -
[338] - Quote
marVLs wrote:CCP Fozzie please tell something about systems that have more than one Ice belt before Odyssey. Are now every system that have Ice belt is limited to only one? Because from many hours i don't se other belts respawning in system that have before 3 Ice belts 
systems with multiple belts have multiple anoms. |

marVLs
168
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Posted - 2013.06.05 11:45:00 -
[339] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:marVLs wrote:CCP Fozzie please tell something about systems that have more than one Ice belt before Odyssey. Are now every system that have Ice belt is limited to only one? Because from many hours i don't se other belts respawning in system that have before 3 Ice belts  systems with multiple belts have multiple anoms.
So there's a bug in system "Talidal" should be 3 ice belts respawning, but only 1 respawn normal (checking since Odyssey launch) |

Dave Stark
3078
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 11:55:00 -
[340] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Dave Stark wrote:marVLs wrote:CCP Fozzie please tell something about systems that have more than one Ice belt before Odyssey. Are now every system that have Ice belt is limited to only one? Because from many hours i don't se other belts respawning in system that have before 3 Ice belts  systems with multiple belts have multiple anoms. So there's a bug in system "Talidal" should be 3 ice belts respawning, but only 1 respawn normal (checking since Odyssey launch)
they respawn 4 hours after being completely emptied, there's no reason for them all to be spawned at once. |
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marVLs
168
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Posted - 2013.06.05 14:02:00 -
[341] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:they respawn 4 hours after being completely emptied, there's no reason for them all to be spawned at once.
I know but the problem is there's only one respawning. Ice belt showing => mined => 4h break => show again => mined => 4h break and so on... Other 2 belts ain't showing at all. |

Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2013.06.05 14:32:00 -
[342] - Quote
Changes to favor null ice mining based on risk -- ROFLMAO!
Except everyone knows the ice belt risk in null sec is much lower than in low sec -- because of sovereignty and big alliances wrapping a good portion its defending fleet around those systems.
Only danger comes when an attacking alliance threatens to conquer that null ice system...normally a pretty rare occasion though motivation is up with new ice system changes.
No the correct answer is ..
#1 put MORE of ice into lo sec systems because Lo sec favors no alliance or corp.
Set up for more and larger fleet battles over scarce resources.
#2 Consider setting ice anomalies free to spawn in ANY system of same faction and security type.
Its not finding ice anomaly in a system takes more than 10 seconds.
Yes the increased roam traffic looking for ice is a positive thing. Especially in low and null that likely means an increase of 5-10 times in small scale PVP (1-4 ships per side).
If you don't want to leave initial ice finds to individual corps-- CCP can set up ICE broker agents. ICE Brokers could pay explorers a reward for reporting ice finds, track amounts remaining and report locations EVEwide for a small fee. |

Dave Stark
3078
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:48:00 -
[343] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Dave Stark wrote:they respawn 4 hours after being completely emptied, there's no reason for them all to be spawned at once. I know but the problem is there's only one respawning. Ice belt showing => mined => 4h break => show again => mined => 4h break and so on... Other 2 belts ain't showing at all.
*shrug* it's working fine where i am. |

Dave Stark
3078
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 14:48:00 -
[344] - Quote
Udonor wrote:Changes to favor null ice mining based on risk -- ROFLMAO!
Except everyone knows the ice belt risk in null sec is much lower than in low sec
yep because that level of safety is completely free, right? |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
6358

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Posted - 2013.06.05 15:01:00 -
[345] - Quote
marVLs wrote:Dave Stark wrote:marVLs wrote:CCP Fozzie please tell something about systems that have more than one Ice belt before Odyssey. Are now every system that have Ice belt is limited to only one? Because from many hours i don't se other belts respawning in system that have before 3 Ice belts  systems with multiple belts have multiple anoms. So there's a bug in system "Talidal" should be 3 ice belts respawning, but only 1 respawn normal (checking since Odyssey launch)
The highsec Amarrian systems that had multiple belts all have one version of the anoms, all other systems that had multiple belts have multiple anoms. (And a few highsec systems actually have more anoms than they had belts, as part of the balancing between volumes of racial ice available in highsec).
Sorry, I've realized I wasn't clear about that when I was discussing the changes to Amarrian highsec ice. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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marVLs
171
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Posted - 2013.06.05 15:16:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The highsec Amarrian systems that had multiple belts all have one version of the anoms, all other systems that had multiple belts have multiple anoms. (And a few highsec systems actually have more anoms than they had belts, as part of the balancing between volumes of racial ice available in highsec).
Sorry, I've realized I wasn't clear about that when I was discussing the changes to Amarrian highsec ice.
Thx for reply, but that really sux for me  Before Odyssey launch with Ice changes being announced i get a plan to move into some multiple Ice Belts system without station so there will be less competition. I farm lvl4 for standing to Khanid, then deploy POS in Talidal, moving all sorts of structures, items, accounts etc. and now...? All for nothing, it's really sad that those Amarr multiple belt system changes wasn't properly announced... |

Red DragonZA
Indomitus Draco Rufus
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 23:59:00 -
[347] - Quote
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....
The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. 
Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer.  
PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!! |

Hustomte
FutureTech Industrial Inc.
98
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 00:44:00 -
[348] - Quote
Red DragonZA wrote:Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT.... The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga.  Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer.   PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!
I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong? Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate.
Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend. ...Signature... |

Red DragonZA
Indomitus Draco Rufus
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 06:44:00 -
[349] - Quote
Hustomte wrote:Red DragonZA wrote:Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT.... The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga.  Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer.   PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!! I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong? Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate. Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend.
I choose to be alone... that is my prerogative. EVE is a sandbox game so I can play it anyway I want to. I was doing just fine before this change... you wait and see... even corps with loads of members is going to battle. But this is not the point.
I enjoy ice mining and now I can't Ice mine as there is no damn belt when I in game after a long hard day of real life work.
And when you have to pay 2 - 4 times the price for a T2 ship or module.... don't complain. |

Dave Stark
3085
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 07:34:00 -
[350] - Quote
Red DragonZA wrote:I enjoy ice mining and now I can't Ice mine.
wrong.
you choose not to mine ice. there's more than 1 ice anomaly in the game. |
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marVLs
171
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Posted - 2013.06.06 08:25:00 -
[351] - Quote
And one more thing, why there's only 1500 racial Ice on anomaly in system Talidal? Should be 2500...
Yep checked it few times on belt respawn |

Dave Stark
3089
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 10:52:00 -
[352] - Quote
marVLs wrote:And one more thing, why there's only 1500 racial Ice on anomaly in system Talidal? Should be 2500...
Yep checked it few times on belt respawn
if that's true, i suggest you screenshot it and submit it with a bug report. |

energypills
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 19:58:00 -
[353] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As mentioned before, these belts will appear in systems that currently have ice belts, and will re-spawn four hours after they are depleted.
I just trained up a toon so that I could mind ice. I spent lots of isk on his +5's so that I could get it trained up as soon as I could so that I could bring in about 4-5 loads of ice during my 2-3 hour window of game play each evening. The 4 our re-spawn is horrible. For me as a solo miner. I don't have the time or money to run 10 clients or more. Each one with a mining barge like several people do in the system I mine Ice in. Since CCP allows bot-mining like this these belts disappear within 30 min or less. I have waited on the un-dock with my mackinaw scanning for the re-spawn for the three hours I have to pay each night: realizing the best thing for me to do in that situation is to dock up.
This is a flawed change. If it remains then what do I assume?
That CCP doesn't have any regard for solo miners? Only wants to make high sec mining corps to war dec? And if this is the case -- what about the NPS corp mining fleets run by single person that eats up the ice field in 30 min - they are immune it seems.
And, what about the new players? They will get discouraged as hell. I figured I'd fit up a hulk because the ONE time I got into the ice field I wasn't able to complete a single cycle on three targeted Clear Icicles. This second account I am using is to make money so I can fund a main PVP toon. What is the point of all the training I did for this ice miner char?
I think that there are several ways this can be fixed. But the patch changes for Ice mining have begun re-inventing the wheel again if you ask me. |

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
17
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Posted - 2013.06.06 21:51:00 -
[354] - Quote
Hustomte wrote:Red DragonZA wrote:Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT.... The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga.  Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer.   PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!! I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong? Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate. Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend.
Your statement is not exactly accurate as one miner would not be able to mine enough ice products on his/her own to fuel three POS towers. Well, not large ones anyway.
CCP Soundwaves vision to model the trade in ice products on the RL trade in oil and other hydrocarbons is indeed flawed. I suppose we should be glad that his initial idea to remove ice from high sec entirely was dropped.
I agree that it is probably not a good idea for one player to be running six to ten accounts all mining. I see it going on occasionally and it quite destructive. Whether there are that many of these types about idk. |

Null Exchange
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 23:52:00 -
[355] - Quote
To all the solo miners and their whinging about not being able to mine ice on their own... this is a MMO; it can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do. |

energypills
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 14:54:00 -
[356] - Quote
Null Exchange wrote:To all the solo miners and their whining... this is a MMO. It can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do.
Also - If your POS relied on you mining the fuel to keep it running, you were doing it wrong. All economic equations of the money making venture you were doing should have included the market cost of the fuel before deciding to start the activity. The extra money made by mining it yourself should have been seen as that, extra profit.
Do you REALLY think that this game is NOT intended to be played solo just because it is MMO? MMO means Multi Player. That means there are multiple players - that does not mean a player isn't meant to played solo. Don't go making stuff up - you don't know what you are talking about. I am not whining but in actuality whining will get you pretty far in this world. |

Red DragonZA
Indomitus Draco Rufus
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 15:52:00 -
[357] - Quote
energypills wrote:Null Exchange wrote:To all the solo miners and their whining... this is a MMO. It can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do.
Also - If your POS relied on you mining the fuel to keep it running, you were doing it wrong. All economic equations of the money making venture you were doing should have included the market cost of the fuel before deciding to start the activity. The extra money made by mining it yourself should have been seen as that, extra profit. Do you REALLY think that this game is NOT intended to be played solo just because it is MMO? MMO means Multi Player. That means there are multiple players - that does not mean a player isn't meant to played solo. Don't go making stuff up - you don't know what you are talking about. I am not whining but in actuality whining will get you pretty far in this world.
My point exactly.
@ Goons.... I lived on nullsec for over a year. I prefer wormholes.... way much fun. hey CCP... please take away local in all nullsec systems and move moon materials to wormholes . The we will see how the nulsec crowd cries! |

Dave Stark
3104
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 16:17:00 -
[358] - Quote
i find it amusing people think that 1 account should be as effective as multiple accounts working together. |

Marsan
Caldari Provisions
115
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 16:46:00 -
[359] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Soft Insanity wrote:Fozzie, can we get ice miners on the Venture Pwwwwease? I've wanted that for a while, but to do it right we'd need to allow faster cycling ice miners that create smaller blocks. And I have no idea how we would go about implementing that.
Why not change all ice so that all ice blocks are 1/10th the size of the current ones. Reduce Ice miner cycle to 1/10. Make all BPs require x10 the Ice. Finally split all the existing ice materials 1 for 10. Now you have the flexibility to ice mine in more active fashions in ships with smaller cargo holds.
The other option is to have an ice mining laser that produces free floating jet cans with ice in it instead of the block being transfered to your ore hold. Then you could have a horde of Ventures carving off blocks of Ice and an Orca or fleet of indys collecting them. This could lead to hijinks in HS as people try to ninja the ice and get suspect flagged. Make this laser cycle x1.5 faster to encourage fleet mining ops. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |

Null Exchange
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 16:54:00 -
[360] - Quote
Yes I do and I stand by my statement, but as I also said you can still play solo if you choose, just that the rewards are not as lucrative (nor should they be) than if you play with others. The main focus of the devs seems to be to encourage players making their own content through player to player interaction via the framework they provide, and rightly so. That content is far better than anything CCP can create on their own.
Ice was broken anyway really; it was not in sync with the rest of the game mechanics IMO. Whilst itGÇÖs a very drastic change that will be hard to get used to, it was a shakeup that we all needed. If Ice mining was your way of playing and enjoying Eve and it now prevents you from doing so, well yeah it sucks, however its a great big universe out there and perhaps you might see this as a challenge to explore the other offerings this great game has?
PS - I am a lone wolf in the sandbox like a lot of you - I just like seeing things being kept fresh and challenging instead. |
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