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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 18 post(s)
Tlat Ij Hedion University Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2013.05.21 23:18:00 - [91] - Quote devblog wrote: In fact the radial menu UI pattern is going through a bit of a renaissance these days due to touch screen interfaces and it is becoming the weapon of choice for many UI developers both for touch and mouse input interfaces. The reason radial menus and the like are being used on touch-based interfaces is because touching the right menu item is hard, and because the device can't tell the difference between a "left-click touch" and a "right-click touch" so it just gives you a menu that's easy to touch the option you want. However, *touch based UI on a non-touch program is really, really stupid!* (see: windows 8) EVE is not a game that can easily be played on a touch screen, if you want to change that fine, but keep the touch-based UI and the mouse+keyboard UI separate, because the two should not be mixed because that results in a **** UI. Now to be fair, the r-click menu isn't the most user friendly menu in existence, but that has more to do with the bad item placement (reprocess being next to "strip fitting" and "change name" for ships, trash being next to reprocess for items etc.), and the lack of delay in opening a submenu making it hard to select the right submenu if your hands are not completely steady than the fact that it is a list. CCP karkur wrote:** It's not going to be "optional", but will be able to map it to a different mouse button, and change the delay so you can kind of disable it yourself... but I hope you do give it a chance for at least 1 day So I can bind it to something like "g" or "y" and never see it? The only time I ever see the radial menu currently is when I want to move the camera and somehow manage to click on a bracket and then I get distracted by this menu and being distracted in eve is not a good thing.
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 673	Posted - 2013.05.21 23:25:00 - [92] - Quote Quote: ...In fact the radial menu UI pattern is going through a bit of a renaissance these days due to touch screen interfaces and it is becoming the weapon of choice for many UI developers both for touch and mouse input interfaces. This fitted perfectly to the plan; We had found our silver bullet. It makes absolutely no sense for a touch interface where you do not have a cursor that needs to traverse any distance, where it is being explored is for smartphones where a half radial menu just entered service to make one-handed thumb operation less of a strain. It makes as little sense for a mouse/keyboard setup as cursor traversal from side-to-side can be near instantaneous while keeping fine control, especially with newer mice where sensitivity can be controlled on the fly. And that isn't even taking into account that one has access to the entire alphabet on side, making context browsing maddening fast. It does make sense on consoles with their silly stick controllers, where fine control is only available to the ADHD population so cursor movement can get problematic .. it is why most games released these days has those intrusive radials everywhere, cross platform development and lazy developers. Are you lazy? By all means, add it to Dust but add it only as an option at most in EvE .. if you really wanted to optimize menu use then allow us to shuffle/add/remove entries on the various lists and allow for keyboard to be used for selection when a menu/context is open. Keep up the good work, UI is as ever important, just take care not to force it on people .. best thing about the Mouse3 radial in game now is that it can be deactivated through options and would hate to see what happens if something similar is tied the second most used (F1 has it beat) button in Eve .. left mouse radial .. shudder
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda 879	Posted - 2013.05.21 23:44:00 - [93] - Quote this is a fantastic feature, i fell in love about 12 seconds after finding it on the test server gonna take a few days to get muscle memory on track, but it will be well worth adapting We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :) Banner was used for this Post
Darirol Origin. Black Legion. 7	Posted - 2013.05.21 23:57:00 - [94] - Quote CCP Sharq wrote: Darirol wrote: 1. primary action for a ship in space should be lock it except for switching supercapital pilots in a super/titan i cant remember a single case where i encountered a situation where i want to board a ship. We started the design by having lock as primary action for ships. The problem with that is that locking becomes inconsistent when locking other stuff tha have different actions attached as primary. So this is what we did. Lock is always in the same place no matter what you are locking. ok makes sense from that point of view
Lost True Paradise project 2183	Posted - 2013.05.22 00:28:00 - [95] - Quote A constructive comment: I liked the old radial menu, used it a lot. The last time i were on the test server, the new radial menu looked for me a bit laggy. Maybe it's was just me. But please add a checkbox to disable a mouse "aim assist" for it. I never had a problems with pointing in the old "small" menu, so this thing may be a bit annoying... in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? Played for 2 months, and tired of the same space again... [url]https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2195542#post2195542[/url]
Dalilus Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2013.05.22 00:51:00 - [96] - Quote CCP, why don't you start charging for all these free expansions? those of us that don't wanna relearn (meaning we don't have the time) how to play EVE every 6 months would probably still be using the quantum rise version or thereabouts.
ZhaoMin The Hsieh 16	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:29:00 - [97] - Quote Hi, Somebody already mentioned vaguely on the idea, but would you take in a concept which I've just drawn up and see if that would suit gamers better? The numbers on the captions denotes shortcut keys FYI, I believe that would make it more consistent and suit most gamers regardless of platform and suits Eve's futuristic theme. As well as it re-implements the WASD keys for the radial menu functions so to please the wider MMO crowds who doesn't like Eve the moment they see no effectively meaningful (subjective to individuals of course) WASD implementation on the UI. would I get awarded with something if this is a idea you considers "good"? :P https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_xr-qmX_9pbVF9VajF4OUdsS2M/edit?usp=sharing
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 5141	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:40:00 - [98] - Quote Fitz Muller wrote: Hey CCP Can we please please please get an option to turn it off altogether. I'm sure what you are doing to improve it is great but I spent almost all of my time flying with the tactical overly up and zoomed so I can see a range of about 60km in all directions, I am forever turning the camera and accidentally bringing up the radial menu on an item I can't even see and getting the show info window pop up or have the ship tell me it is alligning and I have to stop and then reposition etc. Thanks Fitz You already are getting this option, it's been addressed several times. Just turn the delay way up and you'll probably never notice. Anyway, I think the new radial menu is an overall excellent addition. I've been using it a lot on Singularity. I turned the old one off because I thought it was awful, but I really enjoy this one. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel.
Terrorfrodo Renegade Hobbits for Mordor 459	Posted - 2013.05.22 01:56:00 - [99] - Quote Dev Blog wrote: Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors. OMG this is awesome. Just tried it on Sisi and being able to set varying orbits, ranges or warp-to distances with a simple gesture is truly a new and great feature because until now with the right-click this takes considerably longer and it's easy to misclick and lose the menu when under pressure in pvp. Having never used the old radial menu I will need to force myself to use the new one, but once I get accustomed to it I think it will be a real improvement for me, so thanks to the dev team :) As a minor suggestion I think that capping the orbit range at 30 km is a bit too little, with logistics or ewar boats it sometime makes sense to keep ranges of up to 70 km. I think the gestures should go at least up to 50. (Ideally it should increase only by small amounts at first like it does now and then in larger steps of 2 or 5 km when you make a very strong gesture.) .
Huang Mo Tianxia Inc 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 02:07:00 - [100] - Quote It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off. Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus.

James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 5141	Posted - 2013.05.22 02:41:00 - [101] - Quote Huang Mo wrote: It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off. Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus. So don't use it. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel.
R17a Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities 4	Posted - 2013.05.22 03:02:00 - [102] - Quote It's f*ing crap.. It's very f*ing CRAP! Old radial menu - BEST!
electrostatus Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2013.05.22 04:18:00 - [103] - Quote Aw, the positions of the buttons aren't the same as the ones in the current radial menu. That's going to be such a pain to break muscle memory. I thought that was going to be changed. Sure, its not an update to the current radial menu, but a new one; but the buttons that do the same thing can still be in the same place. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Marcus Aurelijus Eagle's Warrior's Eyrie Alliance 10	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:09:00 - [104] - Quote Never liked radial menu's, never will. Only thing I think its moderately usefull for is touch screens. Eve is not really being played on tablets. Dont let it stop you for developing it for people who do like radial menus... but for the love of god....how about NOT forcefeeding it like many other features. Keep the right-click overlong menu's for people who dont mind or actually like them...dont hurt you does it?
Dirk Space Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:15:00 - [105] - Quote CCP karkur wrote: Dirk Space wrote: I am open-minded enough to give it a go but if I don't like it, if it ruins my eve experience like the integrated inventory did, what then? Thanks for keeping an open mind We should at least not panic right now Try it out on Sisi if you guys get a chance. I have checked in the mousebutton binding and delay change, but I am not sure when Sisi will be updated, but probably either tomorrow or the next day. I have never used the radial menu we have on TQ today, but when I was playing on TQ over the weekend, I was really missing my new radial menu when I was jumping through gates and docking and stuff Just to confirm I have tried it... And I liked it. I updated Sisi this morning and spent some time playing with it. I know I wont be using it all the time, because of the way I play the game, but how it has been implemented is intuitive but also unobstructive. Thank you for your work. Now I need to go and whinge about the scanning changes :P
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S The Shadow Eclipse 72	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:43:00 - [106] - Quote Fitz Muller wrote: Hey CCP Can we please please please get an option to turn it off altogether. I'm sure what you are doing to improve it is great but I spent almost all of my time flying with the tactical overly up and zoomed so I can see a range of about 60km in all directions, I am forever turning the camera and accidentally bringing up the radial menu on an item I can't even see and getting the show info window pop up or have the ship tell me it is alligning and I have to stop and then reposition etc. Thanks Fitz I too fly zoomed out, at least to the point that I can see the entire targeting range on the tactical overlay plus a few Km. The only time that I have used the current Radial Menu is accidentally when I'm fine tuning the camera position(normally to avoid looking from inside an asteroid or other Large collidable object), the game thinks that it is a hold when it is not. Most of the time I've forgotten that it even existed and then gone WTF? I didn't tell the game to do that!! (when I actually have because of the radial menu) I'm also curious as to how long it's going to take to learn the various icons :( I hope that there is at least some popup text to tell which is which.
BleedingAngl Twist The Rusty Knife 6	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:36:00 - [107] - Quote thx for making this an optional feature
Galmas United System's Commonwealth R.E.P.O. 98	Posted - 2013.05.22 10:48:00 - [108] - Quote Before i start going into detail... If it is somehow possible without ruining CCP financially please give us a switch to turn it off. Sorry for being that negative on it right from the start. It has to be possible to "pre-select" any time critical action, e.g. docking, gate jumping etc... in the radial menu. If this is not possible, e.g. the "jump" option only appears when it is actually possible to jump, then this radial menu is not going to be very useful. I think i don't need to go into detail here explaining why. Also, please keep in mind that there are many situations where selecting stuff in the 3d space window is almost impossible. Please do not remove any functionality that makes it possible to initiate actions from within the overview window, the fleet window or the watch list.
Valke Murakumo EVE University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2013.05.22 11:19:00 - [109] - Quote I personally can't wait to give this a try when it comes! :) It does looks amazing when it was first previewed at the Fanfest
Wanderinlost Task Force MK7 4	Posted - 2013.05.22 12:31:00 - [110] - Quote Mmmmmmmmm radial menu

Rommiee Mercury Inc. 562	Posted - 2013.05.22 13:42:00 - [111] - Quote CCP karkur wrote: Darvaleth Sigma wrote: Sorry if it's been answered already (tl;dr), but will the old-fashioned right-click menus still have all the same options as now? Or will the ones on the radial menu be forcibly divorced from the right-click menu we all know and love, plunging us into the abysmal depths of despair and destitute mental poverty? I'm not saying the radial menu won't be a good thing (not at all), but for people who want to keep it as it is (and there will be a lot of them), will CCP support this? we are not touching the right click menu You better not change you mind over leaving the right click menu alone :)
Quintessen Orion's Belt Mining and Pharmaceuticals 68	Posted - 2013.05.22 14:21:00 - [112] - Quote Huang Mo wrote: It seems the most requested feature is the ability to turn the radial menu completely off. Radial menus may look pretty, but if they were good UI design they would have been deployed in a lot of other applications. They are not. In fact, EVE is the only application I can think of that use radial menus. Radial menus have been notoriously difficult to program before. Windows has no native support for them which is why almost no one uses them. There are a lot of user interface elements that haven't been replaced yet but are in fact bad interfaces. Toolbars e.g. fail after a certain scale which is why Microsoft invented the ribbon which has statistically proven better usability than their old toolbar system. CCP in their presentation on it stated that they had usability studies that showed improved usability for radial menus when the number of items was small. I'm willing to trust those studies. Once the major OS manufacturers provide radial menu support natively you'll see a ton more radial menus. Until then not so much.
Sakhr Otaktay Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore 10	Posted - 2013.05.22 14:26:00 - [113] - Quote Please let people Choose if they want ot use this or not.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 4161	Posted - 2013.05.22 14:53:00 - [114] - Quote Shiuri wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: One of the main problems with the current menus that it is too easy to hit the wrong "button" as similar functions are located right next to each other. Similar controls in a radial menu need consistancy in placement, and separation of similar easily confused options. One of the main problems with the current menus is that it is entirely too easy to click the "wrong" button because buttons that do something entirely different from what you want done are in illogical places, like right next to buttons that do what you want done. This is not changing with the new radial menu. Grouping items that do similar things is natural, scattering them to the four winds is confusing. Ranger 1 wrote: If you can't get a handle on the logic of the placement of the nav buttons, perhaps you should stick to the right click menu. It's really not that difficult of a concept. No ****, right? That's exactly what I said in my OP that you decided to take issue with. How about you just let it go because I'm airing my grievances to CCP in a comments thread. Thanks. You see, that's the beauty of a forum thread. You are entitled to whine about something just as much as I am entitled to point out how silly it is. Considering that right click menu's are one of the most complained about elements of the EvE UI, you'll probably have to get used to it. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Adunh Slavy 831	Posted - 2013.05.22 16:54:00 - [115] - Quote Can you explain this a bit more? "Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors." Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror.
Windle Poons Ankh-Morpork City Watch 0	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:08:00 - [116] - Quote CCP karkur wrote: Yay, radial menu... let us know what you think :) You can turn it off, yes? Because I HATE radials. I don't remember the icons so words are always faster, so I want to be able to turn if off completely, as I can already with the current one.
Pon Teyuen InterSun Freelance Moon Warriors 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:31:00 - [117] - Quote For the life of me, I can't understand why there's a perception that a 3-layer nested menu consisting of a huge list in which moving the mouse at all in the wrong vector will cause the flyout menu to collapse is considered great UI design. It is FAMILIAR UI design, (as Windows uses it) which is different than "good". You can get used to almost any crap if you use it enough. Fact is, people are efficient with it not because it is optimal but because a muscle-memory has developed for it. Objectively, for fast-paced situations that is a terrible interface. Of course, it is great that they are keeping that as an option. It is also good for more elaborate menus of choices when its not as time critical. Of course, a lot of the feedback here is along the lines of "I'm used to x, so never ever change x so I don't have to relearn it." All my prospective suggestions were addressed: I like the face that you can access it in the overview. It is objectively more motion and clicks, and thus slower, to click on an object in the overview then move upward to go to the contextual panel to perform an action. The only thing this radial menu does in this case functionally is move this menu to under your cursor. Of course, even faster is just hotkey+click on the overview for a function. The ability to assign a hotkey+left mouse-click to instantly open the menu is ideal and would be better even than the ability to move it to a different mouse button (which is also a needed option, so good that it's there). That allows for no delay, no mis-click of the radial if you don't want it and creates a sort of universal shortcut key. I will be using the radial menu a decent amount, but that feature would make it a staple. I like very much the ability to drag in a direction to adjust things like orbit distance, warp to range etc. It lets you have a simple button without sub-options yet gives you effectively the same or better choices when selecting it.
Dersen Lowery Laurentson INC StructureDamage 502	Posted - 2013.05.22 18:44:00 - [118] - Quote Windle Poons wrote: CCP karkur wrote: Yay, radial menu... let us know what you think :) You can turn it off, yes? Because I HATE radials. I don't remember the icons so words are always faster, so I want to be able to turn if off completely, as I can already with the current one. The idea with CCP's design is that you don't have to remember the icons so much as the gestures. Once the radial menu is in your muscle memory you won't have to look at all. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
poppeteer Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:02:00 - [119] - Quote Adunh Slavy wrote: Can you explain this a bit more? "Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors." Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror. If you click on the object, say a gate, and go to Warp to you'll warp to the gate at the default range. If however you go past the Warp 'wedge' of the circle, whilst staying in line with Warp, you will see range indicators (graphic and text) increasing up to the maximum allowable for that action. This allows for specification of both the action and a parameter (if you like) within the bounds of the gesture.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 4165	Posted - 2013.05.22 19:10:00 - [120] - Quote poppeteer wrote: Adunh Slavy wrote: Can you explain this a bit more? "Navigation options are placed on the 45 degree axis; Align, Warp To, Keep at Range and Orbit. The range of these options depends on the distance of the mouse pointer from the center of the menu. So all ranges can be set in a single motion, their placement is deliberate to minimize errors." Might be one of those things easier to see than explain, but I can't get on Sisi till the next mirror. If you click on the object, say a gate, and go to Warp to you'll warp to the gate at the default range. If however you go past the Warp 'wedge' of the circle, whilst staying in line with Warp, you will see range indicators (graphic and text) increasing up to the maximum allowable for that action. This allows for specification of both the action and a parameter (if you like) within the bounds of the gesture. In other words, when the radial menu is up and you have your mouse over something like the "Orbit Object" part of the circle, a range indicator appears under your mouse. If you just leave your mouse in place, you'll notice the range is whatever you have set as default. The further away from the center of the circle you go with your mouse the futher away from the object you orbit, if you move your mouse closer to the center the tighter your orbit will be. Edit: You're right, it's easier to just look at it than to try to explain it. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.



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