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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.27 00:38:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Tripoli on 27/04/2006 00:39:40
 Originally by: Eralis
No, it's not my mistake. You're relying on the fact that you're sure you're right instead of actually thinking about this. Because you're wrong.
I had a feeling you were going to say I wasn't thinking about this thoroughly, and I assure you, I am. I'm always the first to admit when I'm wrong. Anyways...
Really, where our difference in opinion lies is not in any of our math, it is in our definition of the "payoff" or "breakeven" point. Calling yours a mistake may have been, well, inaccurate.
Your definition is based on a player's actual theoretical progress in the game. You are, of course, correct that given perfect circumstances (as all our calculations are based on) it would take my payoff time times two to equal yours. For this very reason, people like Deiloen, while confirming my mathematical breakeven, have always said it would take much longer for this to actually become worthwhile.
For the past several years, people have asked how long it would take until training various learning skills would "pay off." When I asked for a more specific definition of "payoff" I always got the same answer: They wanted to know when they would have as many useful skill points as someone who hadn't trained those learning skills. This is why I have always calculated payoff as I do.
Aside from that reason, there is one other that has always made me stick to my definition of "payoff." While you're right that overall progress is potentially behind, once the mathematical breakeven point has been reached, the player that did train the learning skills is now at an advantage. Their skills from that point on will always be superior to the other player's. They'll finish every skill from then on earlier than the other. After that point, their battleship is better, or their science skills are better, or whatever.
So really, it all boils down to what's more important for you. Do you want to start being better than everyone else after the mathematical breakeven, or do you want to spend twice that long having progressed farther than whoever decided to train learning skills? I can easily see people going either way. I believe your definition would tend to be more in favor of science and industry situations, while I believe mine tends to favor combat.
Of course none of this applies to people who take the same attitude as me. I maxed out my learning skills because I wanted the highest possible attributes and the most total skill points. Payoff has always been a non-issue for me. I can train most skills faster than most players, and that makes me happy. My "payoff" was the moment I finished training the advanced learning skills. 
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280 of 312 skills trained. |
Sun Bo
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Posted - 2006.05.07 23:38:00 -
[122]
Thanks for this guide Tripoli - I am following it as we speak!
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CH Tan
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Posted - 2006.05.17 01:41:00 -
[123]
Hi Tripoli,
I really find your guide extremely useful, so much so that I'm following it as closely as possible. Thank you so much!
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Galvanti T'kren
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Posted - 2006.05.17 19:05:00 -
[124]
I'd like to add my thanks to Tripoli. I've been following this guide pretty religiously since I started my character a few weeks back.
One thing I'd question is the need for Presence lvl 4. Using EVEMon, I have my skills planned out til next January (earlier if I get some decent implants). Not a single one uses Charisma and moving Presence 4 all the way to the bottom had no effect on my completion times. Learning lvl 5 is also a bit iffy, since its "payback time" is many, many months, but I guess for the long term, it's good to get out of the way.
Bit of an obvious piece of advice for fellow noobs: if you're a bit daunted by the nearly 60 days of training for all the Learning Skills, remember you can intersperce some practical skills in there w/o loss of efficiency. For example, once I'm done with Logic IV & Learning V, I'll be training a number of short, but useful, skills that only require Int & Mem like Mining, Electronics, Shield Management and Engineering.
Anyway, thanks again for a great guide.
Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.18 01:18:00 -
[125]
Your praise is most appreciated. 
You're right that Presence 4 most likely isn't a good idea at this point in the game. Hopefully in the future CCP will make it a more useful attribute. Learning 5 is actually a pretty good skill, but the year or so payoff can be a bit daunting. Save it for when you're on a short vacation or something. You'll be glad you trained it eventually.
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280 of 312 skills trained. |
Dr Slurm
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Posted - 2006.05.18 05:08:00 -
[126]
Trade skills are as follows:
c = charisma
w = willpower
m = memory
P: primary
S: secondary
Accounting:
P: C
S: M
Broker Relations:
P: W
S: C
Day Trading:
P: C
S: M
Margin Trading:
P: C
S: M
Marketing:
P: C
S: M
Procurement:
P: C
S: M
Retail:
P: W
S: C
Trade:
P: W
S: C
Visibility:
P: C
S: M
Wholesale:
P: C
S: M
Tycoon:
P: C
S: M
C = total 8 Skills as primary, 3 as secondary
W = total 3 skills as primary, 0 as secondary
M = total 0 skills as primary, 8 as secondary
Obviously Charisma is the most important to a Trader, and Memory being the second most.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.22 03:21:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Hardin
Thanks again Tripoli and I hope this gets somewhere near the 86,000 read the first thread got.
Hardin
86,000 reads: Check.
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280 of 312 skills trained. |
EMPstrike
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Posted - 2006.05.23 17:42:00 -
[128]
very helpful, thanx man.
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DarkWolf555
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Posted - 2006.05.25 05:49:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Tripoli
Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 05:33:59
Here are the various skill groups and which attributes are typically primary and secondary for them:
Drones: Memory / Perception
Electronics: Intelligence / Memory
Engineering: Intelligence / Memory
Gunnery: Perception / Willpower
Industry: Memory / Intelligence
Leadership: Willpower / Charisma
Learning: Memory / Intelligence
Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory
Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower
Navigation: Intelligence / Perception
Science: Intelligence / Memory
Social: Charisma / Intelligence
Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower
Trade: Willpower / Charisma
Personally, I think a balance of attribute points in Intelligence, Memory, Perception, and Willpower will serve you best in the long run. Even if you intend to be an ace fighter which requires high Perception and Willpower, a lot of the secondary skills that are required to make a really good fighter (such as Engineering and Electronics) require good Intelligence and Memory. Intelligence and Perception are, in my opinion, the most important attributes in the game.
I hope that you will find this information helpful. I always welcome questions and comments. IÆll try to keep this information up to date for yÆall.
Tripoli, I noticed.
Its very minuscuel but you left out Corporate Management tab.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.26 01:16:00 -
[130]
You'd think after a year I might notice that. Fixed.
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Hekmatyar
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Posted - 2006.05.28 22:39:00 -
[131]
Is it possible that one day, CCP allows players to rebalance their attributes because I pull all of them in charisma when I began Eve Online and OMG, I feel like an handicap. With Advanced Learning to 3 and Implants+3, I only have 3 in willpower for example!!
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.29 16:02:00 -
[132]
CCP will never let us change our base attributes, but I'm sure they're planning on making charisma a little more useful/necessary. There are also other attribute-boosting things that will be coming out. Boosters and DNA Mutators, for example.
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Phaeton Prime
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Posted - 2006.05.29 18:51:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Phaeton Prime on 29/05/2006 18:56:27
Eralis seems right to me. The skillpoints spent on learning has diminishing returns that will only begin to pay off after the time spent investing in the learning skills is past. The advantage of the extra attribute point or two is probably not enough to train them fully unless you see yourself playing Eve more than 2-3 years from now. 2 months investment is a great deal of time spent if you're only playing for the next year or two.
Meeting minimum requirements to obtain and use equipment is a much better use of your time and becomes more important the less time you will end up playing.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.29 19:06:00 -
[134]
The idea is really to balance the training of learning skills and useful skills. Unfortunately, no one knows how long they will be playing, so it's hard to say for sure just how high you should train the learning skills. Almost no one could argue that level 3 of the advanced learning skills is pretty much essential, though (at least for intelligence and perception). Those pay off pretty fast with the current skill set, regardless of if you prefer my payoff definition or Eralis'.
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Dolph Mataan
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Posted - 2006.05.31 14:15:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Dolph Mataan on 31/05/2006 14:19:43
Thank you, this guide was very helpful to this new player. I am not sure if I will spend much time training the advanced skills from 4 to 5 but I will probably put in a few hours a week.
It just does not seem like it would pay off fast enough to warrant me committing so much potential gaming time in the next several months.
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Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power. |
Dolph Mataan
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Posted - 2006.05.31 14:21:00 -
[136]
On a side note my starting Perception attribute was 7 and I do have aspirations to operate a Capital ship, not sure if I want to bother re-rolling though if I intend to go through all the Learning skills first.
(odd I kept getting "thread does not exist when I tried to edit my previous post).
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Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power. |
Faergus
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Posted - 2006.05.31 21:01:00 -
[137]
Nice Guide indeed 
Now i just need to find me some info on how to make money early on without having to mine endlessly, and im set
Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.31 23:56:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Dolph Mataan
On a side note my starting Perception attribute was 7 and I do have aspirations to operate a Capital ship, not sure if I want to bother re-rolling though if I intend to go through all the Learning skills first.
(odd I kept getting "thread does not exist when I tried to edit my previous post).
7 Perception isn't crippling, but over a long time it could eventually make a difference. You'll find that your other attributes are important as well. Personally, I wouldn't bother rerolling.
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Torazz
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Posted - 2006.06.02 07:48:00 -
[139]
hi, just started playing and need a little help with skills.
Should i learn the above skill list first BEFORE learning any others?, i presume by doing so everything becomes quicker in the long run.
thks for advice :)
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Dolph Mataan
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Posted - 2006.06.02 13:17:00 -
[140]
That is the idea Torazz. As a new player you might get bored with the game if all you are doing is training Learning skills for 2+ months (assuming you keep Advanced Learning to lvl. 4 and not go to lvl. 5).
Being a new player myself I got the Frigate skill to 3 so that I can atleast do lvl. 1 Agent Missions with a Kestrel to keep me busy until Learning skills are over and done with.
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Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power. |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.06.02 22:53:00 -
[141]
Not a bad idea to do as much learning as you can, but don't get bored of the game because of it. Get your basics up to level 3 and have some fun.
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Quansit
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Posted - 2006.06.02 23:08:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Quansit on 02/06/2006 23:09:48
As a recent newbie myself, I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful information and for the fellow newbies that have read this far, I'd thought I'd share of couple things I've gathered here and in other places.
First is, get EVEMon. ( http://evemon.evercrest.com/ )
It's a handy program that will help you plan your training out.
Not only does it help you make a plan, it will make recommendations to reorder or even add additional skills if the additions will save you overall training time in your plan.
This will help you see the benefits of when to train the learning skills and see that sometimes the overall plan is more efficient with more skills in it rather than less.
The other thing is to don't forget you can throw in the "useful" skills while you are doing the learning to have "fun" as you go. I've added many in as I've needed stuff to fit my ship or use implants, etc.
I'm 3 weeks in, having fun and my basic learning skills will be completed soon.
-Quansit
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Planek
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Posted - 2006.06.05 03:51:00 -
[143]
okay, right now my character with max advanced learning skills can only get to 16 perc and willpower. imo this really sucks because when a noob creates a character, they dont know what they want to do when they get into eve as i have discovered. I started off as an empire guy into industry and now ive decided to go pvp oriented all the way about 6 months ago and i cant train fast at all. this puts a lot of players at a disadvantage. I think for a cost players should be allowed to recreate their character's base attributes once in their entire eve career. only the base ones.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.06.05 04:13:00 -
[144]
I feel your pain. I was born with only 4 Perception, which happens to be the most important attribute for skill collecting. 
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Rinoa Fujiwara
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Posted - 2006.06.05 22:58:00 -
[145]
This is an awesome guide. Well done.  .
Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
VVVamP
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Posted - 2006.06.06 00:50:00 -
[146]
Briliant Guide..all of it
Thanks!
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Hin Vemere
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Posted - 2006.06.11 03:22:00 -
[147]
I've uploaded the learning skills training plan in post #2 in both evemon and ECM file formats here:
Evemon
ECM
To use them, download the file and import it into your program.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.06.11 08:07:00 -
[148]
Handy
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283 of 312 skills trained. |
Rhuff
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:08:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Rhuff on 22/06/2006 18:12:09
I am a brand new player. By the time I got the client downloaded and installed, I only had about 45 minutes to create my character and start the tutorial. I want to be PvP oriented, so understand that I want high Perception and Willpower.
This is the route I went:
Minmatar/Brutor/Tribal Traditional
Republic Military/Gunnery/Improved Projectile/Advanced Projectile
For my starting attributes, I put
INT +2 / MEM +2 / WILL +1
I was pretty much creating this character blind, and found this tool today: http://www.dabomb.dk/eve/EveStartChar/
I realize that Slave Child was probably the better choice for the WILL+2/PERC+2, so I might as well re-create him as I'm only half an hour in the game. What department/field/specialty should I get starting out brand new to the game?
Also, I see "basic" skills being referred to repeatedly in this thread. What constitutes basic skills, and in what order should I get those?
When I got to the training section in the tutorial I chose learning 1, but didn't see the other options to train up my Perception or Will.
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Gaius Sejanus
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:54:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 23/06/2006 01:02:59
Ideally, you want to start out with the skill path that gets you to Minmatar Frigate 4 if you are Brutor/Sebiestor, or Gunnery 5 if you are the asian bloodline (whose name I don't recall offhand).
Those two starting options give you *huge* initial boosts of skillpoints (you'll start off with roughly 100,000 with Frigate 4, and 270,000 with Gunnery 5). Can give you a 5-10 day jumpstart on your training.
Offhand, I'd go: Sebiestor / Rebels / Republic Military / Ops / Command / Captain Training.
Put bonus points like: +1 Perc, +1 Will, +1 Int, +2 Mem. That will give you:
Perc:9
Will:8
Int:8
Mem:8
Cha:6
And then Minmatar Frigate 4, and Spaceship Command 3, and a total of over 100,00 starting skillpoints.
That's a nice start to things.
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