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Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.02 06:00:00 - [1] Another veteran by the name of Hardin once wrote a wonderful skill guide to help new players better understand the skill system in EVE. His departure left us without someone to look over his guide and keep it up to date. I have taken it upon myself to thoroughly update his guide and add my knowledge to it for the sake of our beloved newbies. Attributes & Skills û The New Guide By Hardin & Tripoli When you create your character, there are five attributes are allocated to him/her. The names of these attributes are: Intelligence, Perception, Charisma, Willpower, and Memory. As you select certain schools and specializations during character creation your attributes are tailored to reflect what would generally best suit those specialties. For example, a scientist should have higher Intelligence and Memory. A fighter will tend have higher Perception and Willpower. A trader will have higher Charisma, and so on. Attributes affect your training times for skills. Nothing else. These attributes are the most important factor to consider when training skills. All skills have a primary and a secondary attribute that apply to them. You can see that information by right clicking on a skill in your character sheet and selecting ôShow Info.ö Only the two attributes listed for a skill will affect how long it takes you to train that skill. The higher your attributes are for a skill, the faster that skill will train. If you have a lower attribute as the primary attribute of the skill you wish to learn, the training time for that skill will be longer than if you had a higher attribute. Your attributes can make a very significant difference in the time it takes you to train a skill. The attribute setup you get at creation will have a big influence on what skills you can train quickly in EVE. If you create your character to be a fighter, the Perception will probably be your most important attribute. High Perception means it will not take you very long to learn gunnery skills and command skills, but it does mean that if you suddenly decide to change your career path and move into research, for instance, then your attributes wonÆt be as good as youÆd like and it will take you longer to train those types of skills. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.02 06:00:00 - [2] You are not stuck with the attributes you get at character creation; however, they will forever determine which skills your character will potentially train the fastest. It is possible to improve your attributes by training the various ôLearningö skills. There are eleven learning skills: Two for each attribute and a general learning skill that adds 2% to your attributes per level. There are 10 skills that increase your attributes by 1 full point per level. The so-called basic set includes ôAnalytical Mind,ö ôEmpathy,ö ôInstant Recall,ö ôIron Will,ö and ôSpatial Awareness.ö The so-called advanced set includes ôClarity,ö ôEidetic Memory,ö ôFocus,ö ôLogic,ö and ôPresence.ö By using these attribute-enhancing learning skills it is possible to increase your base attribute by up to 10 points each. The Learning skill adds an additional 2% to your attributes per level. EVE does not display decimals after your attributes, but they are there and they do matter. If you are considering playing the game long term then the learning skills will save you lots and lots of time, allowing your character to progress much more quickly. Detailed information on the exact calculations behind attributes and how they affect your training times can be found here. People who are very interested in training the various learning skills often ask what order it would be best to train the skills. Though it does vary slightly character to character, the following list will give you a pretty good idea for the most effective order to train the skills. When you finish this list, youÆll have all five basic skills at level 5, Learning at level 5, and all five advanced skills at level 4. Instant Recall I Analytical Mind I Learning I Instant Recall II Analytical Mind II Learning II Instant Recall III Analytical Mind III Learning III Instant Recall IV Analytical Mind IV Learning IV Instant Recall V Eidetic Memory I Eidetic Memory II Eidetic Memory III Eidetic Memory IV Analytical Mind V Logic I Logic II Logic III Logic IV Learning V Iron Will I Iron Will II Iron Will III Iron Will IV Iron Will V Spatial Awareness I Spatial Awareness II Spatial Awareness III Spatial Awareness IV Spatial Awareness V Empathy I Empathy II Empathy III Empathy IV Focus I Focus II Focus III Focus IV Clarity I Clarity II Clarity III Clarity IV Thought it would eventually be worthwhile to train the advanced learning skills to level 5, it can literally take years to make up the time spent training them. That said, many people do actually max them all out, myself included. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.02 06:01:00 - [3] Implants, like learning skills, can also boost your attributes and save you significant training time. At the moment it is possible to get implants that add anywhere from 1 to 5 points to any given attribute. You can only plug in one implant per attribute. Implants are destroyed if you try to remove them from your head, so once you have plugged one in it cannot be taken out and reused. Removing the implant will destroy it. Implants are also lost if you are pod-killed. To be able to use implants you first need to have trained the ôcyberneticsö skill. (In order to train Cybernetics you need the ôScienceö skill at level 3). Implants can be obtained by doing agent missions (a lot of them) or by buying them off the market from other players. Remember, implants will be lost if you get pod-killed; therefore, you may want to think twice about buying and installing a full set of implants if you are likely to be operating in dangerous areas. General Tips To date, charisma is the most useless attribute in EVE. Currently there are relatively few skills that have Charisma as a primary attribute. It is likely that this attribute will become more useful as the game progresses and content is added, but at this point it is easily the least useful. Try to maximize your attributes in any areas where you will be doing lots of training. For example, Navigation skills all have Intelligence as their primary attribute and Perception as their secondary attribute, so if you are about to embark on training all your Navigation skills to level 4 or 5 then boosting your Intelligence and Perception will save you a substantial amount of time. Another thing that people often wonder about is the ôRankö of a skill. It is actually very simple what the Rank of a skill implies. The higher the rank, the longer it will take you to train. Now, itÆs not that it takes you longer to gain 1 skill point, itÆs that it takes more skill points to finish a level of a skill. A Rank(2) skill will take exactly twice as long to train as a Rank(3) skill because it requires twice as many skill points. Always have a skill training. If a skill is due to complete in 2 hours and you know you are going to be away for 14 hours, then switch the training to another skill that will take 14 hours or more (you do not lose and progress if you stop training skills or start training other skills). When you get back home you can switch back to finish the original skill and then you will have avoided losing any skill training time. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.02 06:01:00 - [4] Here are the various skill groups and which attributes are typically primary and secondary for them: Drones: Memory / Perception Electronics: Intelligence / Memory Engineering: Intelligence / Memory Gunnery: Perception / Willpower Industry: Memory / Intelligence Leadership: Willpower / Charisma Learning: Memory / Intelligence Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory Missiles: Perception / Willpower Navigation: Intelligence / Perception Science: Intelligence / Memory Social: Charisma / Intelligence Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower Trade: Willpower / Charisma I personally think that a balance of attribute points in Intelligence, Memory, Perception, and Willpower will serve you best in the long run. Even if you intend to be an ace fighter which requires high Perception and Willpower, a lot of the secondary skills that are required to make a really good fighter (such as Engineering and Electronics) require good Intelligence and Memory. Intelligence and Perception are, in my opinion, the most important attributes in the game. I hope that you will find this information helpful. I always welcome questions and comments. IÆll try to keep this information up to date for yÆall. ---
Asaaj Ventress	Posted - 2005.11.02 07:44:00 - [5] Sweet stuff! Thanks for putting in the time, this will help noobs like me . I just wanted to know, about how long would it take to train the below skills(assuming current set skills are pretty balanced). Thank you again. Instant Recall I Analytical Mind I Learning I Instant Recall II Analytical Mind II Learning II Instant Recall III Analytical Mind III Learning III Instant Recall IV Analytical Mind IV Learning IV Instant Recall V Eidetic Memory I Eidetic Memory II Eidetic Memory III Eidetic Memory IV Analytical Mind V Logic I Logic II Logic III Logic IV Learning V Iron Will I Iron Will II Iron Will III Iron Will IV Iron Will V Spatial Awareness I Spatial Awareness II Spatial Awareness III Spatial Awareness IV Spatial Awareness V Empathy I Empathy II Empathy III Empathy IV Focus I Focus II Focus III Focus IV Clarity I Clarity II Clarity III Clarity IV
Stephen HB	Posted - 2005.11.02 09:22:00 - [6] Hey Tripoli, we've got to stop meeting like this . Good to see an updated guide for the new kids. Might cut down on repetitive explanations to have an up-to-date link. One minor correction: In your explanation of rank you state that a rank (2) skill takes twice as long to train as a rank (3) skill. I think you meant to say a rank (1) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone should read the EVE Tracking Guide.
Maelzel Zante	Posted - 2005.11.02 15:35:00 - [7] Edited by: Maelzel Zante on 02/11/2005 15:35:02 Originally by: Tripoli A trader will have higher Charisma, and so on. To date, charisma is the most useless attribute in EVE. Currently there are relatively few skills that have Charisma as a primary attribute. I believe the majority of the trade-related skills use charisma as a primary attribute. While I agree it isn't as useful as the other attributes, it is quite helpful if you are going the 'trader' route. Not trying to be picky, just trying to improve this guide of yours. Remember Kyonoke Pit
Reevus	Posted - 2005.11.02 16:08:00 - [8] Sticky please! I found one error you may want to correct. You say.... Another thing that people often wonder about is the ôRankö of a skill. It is actually very simple what the Rank of a skill implies. The higher the rank, the longer it will take you to train. Now, itÆs not that it takes you longer to gain 1 skill point, itÆs that it takes more skill points to finish a level of a skill. A Rank(2) skill will take exactly twice as long to train as a Rank(3) skill because it requires twice as many skill points. You should change Rank(3) here to Rank(1). i.e. A Rank(2) skill will take exactly twice as long to train as a Rank(1)... not Rank(3). Great Info and thanks for putting this together.
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2005.11.02 16:20:00 - [9] trip, thank you. It's much easier to point someone at this than to try and explain it to them. ♥ Sel: OZ IS EVIL! HE WILL CRUSH YOUR WILL TO LIVE WITHIN HIS IRON GRASP
MIRMIDON	Posted - 2005.11.02 17:11:00 - [10] Tripoli you are doing great as allways, posting valuable posts.One thing i want to add here which IMHO needs to be considered by the new and old players is the factor of costs in isk.This has to be taken in mind for all because as it is well known those skill books cost isks. Since you post this guide for the new players, i would like to contribute the sum of isk cost, for all the skill books you suggest to be learned, regarding the basic and the advanced learning skills, hence : Learning 35k Analytical Mind 50k Empathy 50k Instant Recall 50k Iron Will 50k Spatial Awareness 50k Clarity 5m Eidetic Memory 5m Focus 5m Logic 5m Presence 5m TOTAL 25m 285k The above cost is based on the costs taken from the item database and the values are concidered very low, since the ingame costs are different per market/region.From my part i did a quick survey in Lonetrek region were i found that the cost for all the advance learning skills to be as high as 45mil per skill book. Eventualy, since players are supposed to learn all the above mentioned skills, are also considered to keep in mind that they will need many millions in isk in order to obtain them.These costs apply to the old players as well, allthough i persume that old ones are considered to make money easier. Everyone should take in mind that the cost factor is for others a small drawback and for others (new players) a big one. This goes also as a tip to the CEOs of the corporations that they recruit new players and they want to support them finacialy when they take their first steps in eve universe.
GC13	Posted - 2005.11.02 20:07:00 - [11] 45 million? Wow... That's exactly ten times what the prices are in my current region.
Schrodingers Cat	Posted - 2005.11.03 04:48:00 - [12] No, not 45 million, 4.5 million. I call Lonetrek my home, and trust me the prices for the advanced learning books are only 4.5 million a piece. However, I would like to note what should be a minor change to the learning skills order... As the advanced learning skills are not based strictly on a Mem-Int primary-secondary standing, it is actually more useful to return to the orignal "learn one move to the next" shuffle that you start off with in the beginning with Instant Recall, Analytical Mind, and Learning. Clarity relies on Perception and Willpower, while Focus is Willpower and Charisma, and, Presence is Charisma and Perception. So the fastest skill progression list would be: Instant Recall I Analytical Mind I Learning I Instant Recall II Analytical Mind II Learning II Instant Recall III Analytical Mind III Learning III Instant Recall IV Analytical Mind IV Learning IV Instant Recall V Eidetic Memory I Eidetic Memory II Eidetic Memory III Eidetic Memory IV Analytical Mind V Logic I Logic II Logic III Logic IV Eidetic Memory V Logic V Learning V Iron Will I Iron Will II Iron Will III Iron Will IV Iron Will V Spatial Awareness I Spatial Awareness II Spatial Awareness III Spatial Awareness IV Spatial Awareness V Empathy I Empathy II Empathy III Empathy IV Empathy V Focus I Clarity I Presence I Focus II Clarity II Presence II Focus III Clarity III Presence III Focus IV Clarity IV Presence IV Focus V Clarity V Presence V Of course, if you aren't one for learning the level 5's of the advanced skills, then feel free to remove them from their respective places.
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.03 04:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 04:58:56 Dang it, Schrodingers Cat......you JUST beat me to updating that. I had simply copied that info from an old post from someone else and hadn't bothered checking it. You posted up your reply WHILE I was auditing that list...and our lists are nearly identical, though I'm leaving out the level 5 advanced stuff for now. Oh well, the post has been updated. Thanks to those who caught my typo regarding Rank. Corrected. Maelzel, I was debating if I was a little too harsh with my Charisma bashing. I've edited it to be a little more friendly to that beloved attribute. And Asaaj, I added an estimate of the total time required for training my updated list. It's about 60 days to train all basic skills to level 5 and advanced skills to level 4. Yes, that takes into account your accelerating training speed throughout the process. Where's my STICKY??? ---
Espen	Posted - 2005.11.03 19:52:00 - [14] Edited by: Espen on 03/11/2005 19:54:14 Quote: ISD...Where's my STICKY??? Mail 'em at [email protected].
Joshua Keeling	Posted - 2005.11.03 22:33:00 - [15] All the of the learning skills have different required skills than you stated ^_^. Some use charisma, some use willpower, etc.
Oiri Yusko	Posted - 2005.11.03 22:54:00 - [16] Stickied. Old sticky removed, since this one's more up-to-date. forum rules\|mailto:[email protected]
Stephen HB	Posted - 2005.11.03 23:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Joshua Keeling All the of the learning skills have different required skills than you stated ^_^. Some use charisma, some use willpower, etc. Not all of them. The basic learning skills are all MEM/INT. The advanced use their own boosted skill as primary, and another as secondary. So the full list becomes: Learning: Basic learning skills MEM/INT (Learning, Total Recall, Analytical Mind, Spatial Awareness, Iron Will, Empathy) Advanced learning skills: Eidetic Memory ..... MEM/INT Logic .............. INT/MEM Clarity ............ PER/CHA Focus .............. WIL/PER Prescence .......... CHA/WIL --------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone should read the EVE Tracking Guide.
Draegario	Posted - 2005.11.04 00:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Asaaj Ventress Sweet stuff! Thanks for putting in the time, this will help noobs like me . I just wanted to know, about how long would it take to train the below skills(assuming current set skills are pretty balanced). Thank you again. {list removed} With all attributes starting at 8, except for charisma at 7, it will take just over 77 days to train all of those skills in that order. This assumes no implants are used, too. - Drae - - - - - - - - - - "Everyone's got one. Better to be a smart one than a dumb one." "I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was going to blame you."
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Joshua Keeling All the of the learning skills have different required skills than you stated ^_^. Some use charisma, some use willpower, etc. Of course, several skill catagories have more than two attributes that apply to them, but generally two attributes are clearly favored. In the case of the Learning catagory, Memory and Intelligence are definately the dominant attributes because of their association with the so-called basic learning skill set. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.04 05:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Oiri Yusko Stickied. Old sticky removed, since this one's more up-to-date. Why thank you. I will do my best to keep this sucker as up-to-date and accurate as I can. Already have a few more improvements I'm working on. Stay tuned. ---
MIRMIDON	Posted - 2005.11.05 02:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Schrodingers Cat No, not 45 million, 4.5 million. I call Lonetrek my home, and trust me the prices for the advanced learning books are only 4.5 million a piece. You are absolutely right. My mistake
Hardin	Posted - 2005.11.08 02:07:00 - [22] Just wanted to say thank you to Tripoli for taking this on and even crediting me I have not actually left (completely) however I no longer have the time to dedicate to EVE that I once did. In addition I cancelled my web hosting subscription and forgot that it held the guide! Thanks again Tripoli and I hope this gets somewhere near the 86,000 read the first thread got. Hardin
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.08 02:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Hardin Just wanted to say thank you to Tripoli for taking this on and even crediting me I have not actually left (completely) however I no longer have the time to dedicate to EVE that I once did. In addition I cancelled my web hosting subscription and forgot that it held the guide! Thanks again Tripoli and I hope this gets somewhere near the 86,000 read the first thread got. Hardin It's my pleasure to follow in your footsteps. Geez, 86,000 reads...I'd better get busy... F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 ... ---
Diss Champ	Posted - 2005.11.08 16:39:00 - [24] When you get to the advanced skills for Charisma, Perception, and Willpower, your progression is not optimal yet. If you care about every second, in the general case you learn level 1 of each, then 2 of each, etc, ordered so that you are always training the skill you just got a point helping the secondary from. To optimize further, you make sure that the one of these that you train slowest is not the first you train to level 1, so that you get it's secondary trained up a level before you train it. An interesting question which someone should compute is what the optimal time to train to use implants is in the progression. Obviously, if you are training a second account you will give them some implants to speed their start- but how much MEM/INT/Learn is optimal for them to learn before they learn cybernetics? (Assuming you didn't do a path that gives them cybernetics to start). Three scenerios of interest would be for a set of +1 (for new players), a set of +3 (most players), and a set of +5 (for the rich who want to catch up fast, since this analysis requires much more training time assume that +3 will be plugged at the appropriate time to put in the +3, so we are only interested here in when it's optimal to train enough to upgrade to +5).
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.09 02:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Diss Champ When you get to the advanced skills for Charisma, Perception, and Willpower, your progression is not optimal yet. If you care about every second, in the general case you learn level 1 of each, then 2 of each, etc, ordered so that you are always training the skill you just got a point helping the secondary from. To optimize further, you make sure that the one of these that you train slowest is not the first you train to level 1, so that you get it's secondary trained up a level before you train it. I was actually trying to give a generalized order, and as you can see, I said that that order varies from character to character. That said, I did put Focus, Clarity, and Presence in the proper order, though I didn't explain why. I do go into much more detail on this in my other thread about attributes calculations. Originally by: Diss Champ An interesting question which someone should compute is what the optimal time to train to use implants is in the progression. Obviously, if you are training a second account you will give them some implants to speed their start- but how much MEM/INT/Learn is optimal for them to learn before they learn cybernetics? (Assuming you didn't do a path that gives them cybernetics to start). Three scenerios of interest would be for a set of +1 (for new players), a set of +3 (most players), and a set of +5 (for the rich who want to catch up fast, since this analysis requires much more training time assume that +3 will be plugged at the appropriate time to put in the +3, so we are only interested here in when it's optimal to train enough to upgrade to +5). Well, the answer for using +3 implants is easy. Don't train any learning skills first. You only need Cybernetics level 1 to use a +3 implant and that only requires Science level 3. Adding three points to all of your attributes in your first 12 hours of training is well worst putting the learning skills on hold for. For a +1 implant, the decision would rely on how long it actually takes you to train Science to level 3 and Cybernetics to level 1 (same requirements as a +3 implant). Looks like on average that should take about 10-11 hours, so whatever you can train faster than 10 hours is worthwhile (except maybe level 2 of Learning). This would suggest that getting Learning level 1, Instant Recall level 2 and Analytical Mind level 2 would probably be a good way to start before training for the +1 implant. The same logic would apply to a +2 implant. The +5 implant would obviously be put off a little longer because it requires training Cybernetics to level 5. I'd train for this after having trained Instant Recall level 4, Analytical Mind level 4, and Learning level 3. I didn't actually do the math on this, but that's a well-educated guess. ---
Jumbala	Posted - 2005.11.28 00:36:00 - [26] helo, could you explain the snake inplant and the 15%?
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.29 01:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Jumbala helo, could you explain the snake inplant and the 15%? Check out this thread: Pirate Implants FAQ ---
Eric Secundus	Posted - 2005.11.29 16:42:00 - [28] Edited by: Eric Secundus on 29/11/2005 16:42:21 Are fractions of an attribute, though hidden, taken into account when determining skill training time? For instance, will a 15,9 Perception character train Spaceship Command any faster than a 15 Perception one?
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.30 07:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Eric Secundus Edited by: Eric Secundus on 29/11/2005 16:42:21 Are fractions of an attribute, though hidden, taken into account when determining skill training time? For instance, will a 15,9 Perception character train Spaceship Command any faster than a 15 Perception one? Yes and yes. ---
Aquilles Caley	Posted - 2005.12.10 15:09:00 - [30] I read it somewhere that training for level 5 in Learning skill, only pays off like a year after. If so, why not leave it for the last on the list? p.s. First post on EVE foruns. First month on EVE. This guide is extremly usefull for us noobs Wink
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.10 16:43:00 - [31] Originally by: Aquilles Caley I read it somewhere that training for level 5 in Learning skill, only pays off like a year after. If so, why not leave it for the last on the list? Because there comes a point when it's more time efficient to train for that extra 2% (which improves all attributes) than it is to train for an extra 5% (which affects only one attribute). ---
Mortelli	Posted - 2005.12.14 06:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Tripoli Three scenerios of interest would be for a set of +1 (for new players), a set of +3 (most players), and a set of +5 (for the rich who want to catch up fast, since this analysis requires much more training time assume that +3 will be plugged at the appropriate time to put in the +3, so we are only interested here in when it's optimal to train enough to upgrade to +5). Well, the answer for using +3 implants is easy. Don't train any learning skills first. You only need Cybernetics level 1 to use a +3 implant and that only requires Science level 3. Adding three points to all of your attributes in your first 12 hours of training is well worst putting the learning skills on hold for. Are we talking about how to train if a "new player" has millions of isk? Unless I'm missing something, I can't even find +1s on the market at a reasonable price. So I'm assuming that for true new players, we should focus on the lower tier attributes first. Then move on to relevant skills and earn some isk. And then from there, get the higher attribute training or implants.
padraig animal	Posted - 2005.12.14 12:32:00 - [33] thanks man helps alot
Brannik Taal	Posted - 2005.12.15 15:38:00 - [34] Of course, training learning is more like a 3% increase, rather than 2% per level. Because it bumps ALL your attributes up by 2%. And for each skill, 2 attributes are involved, one contributes half the learning the other does. So it's a 2% boost to the learning points from your primary attribute, and a 1% boost to points from the secondary attribute. And it has this effect on ALL skills, not just a limited subset. For a measly 5 days, compared to over 16 days for level V advanced learning skill, that's well worth the effort.
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.18 22:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Brannik Taal Of course, training learning is more like a 3% increase, rather than 2% per level. Because it bumps ALL your attributes up by 2%. And for each skill, 2 attributes are involved, one contributes half the learning the other does. So it's a 2% boost to the learning points from your primary attribute, and a 1% boost to points from the secondary attribute. And it has this effect on ALL skills, not just a limited subset. Off the top of my head, I wasn't sure if you were right or wrong about this one. My math on this one was a bit sketchy, but I believe you have the general idea pretty much right, just your numbers were off a bit. One level of the "Learning" skill actually increases your training speed by 1.85%. One level of one of the attribute-specific skills, when divided by 5, actually only works out a 1.1% training speed increase. While this does not change the most effective order to train learning skills in, it does show that the Learning skill itself holds more weight than some people might think. ---
NoNamium	Posted - 2005.12.22 10:59:00 - [36] If you are powerleveling a new account and are able to afford implants you should use the following tree: Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 04:51:03 Instant Recall 1 Analytical Mind 1 Learning 1 Instant Recall 2 Analytical Mind 2 Learning 2 Instant Recall 3 Analytical Mind 3 Science lvl 1 Science lvl 2 Science lvl 3 Cybernetics lvl 1 Insert Basic Memory Augmentation, Insert Basic Cybernetic Implant Learning 3 Instant Recall 4 Analytical Mind 4 Learning 4 Instant Recall 5 Eidetic Memory 1 Eidetic Memory 2 Eidetic Memory 3 Eidetic Memory 4 Analytical Mind 5 Logic 1 Logic 2 Logic 3 Logic 4 Learning 5 Spatial Awareness 1 Spatial Awareness 2 Spatial Awareness 3 Spatial Awareness 4 Spatial Awareness 5 Iron Will 1 Iron Will 2 Iron Will 3 Iron Will 4 Iron Will 5 Empathy 1 Empathy 2 Empathy 3 Empathy 4 Empathy 5 Insert Basic Ocular Filter, Insert Basic Neural Boost, Insert Basic Social Adaptation Implant Focus 1 Clarity 1 Presence 1 Focus 2 Clarity 2 Presence 2 Focus 3 Clarity 3 Presence 3 Focus 4 Clarity 4 Presence 4
WAYNE MIA	Posted - 2005.12.22 19:10:00 - [37] That is a nice set to follow going with implant. For new players, some don`t training the learning skills telling is a waste of time, i read that in local from a system not long ago. At first you may not see a big change when you start training a skills, from any rank, but when they reach lvl 4 or 5, you will be happy to have from minutes to almost an hour taken off a skills and maybe more with the implants. But implants are very costly. when i started to play i didn`t know about those skills, when i learn about them i started right away to train them, since i had alot of skills i different level, i saw the difference in therm of time i was saving from each skills. In then end to tell you, new players, even if it is said before me, do train the learning skills, learning included, it will save time and get you much better.
chicos tar	Posted - 2005.12.22 19:35:00 - [38] Sorry - noob question. As i level up learning skills, is the base attribute value that is is applicable to increase by 1 for each level gained? Thanks for the help.
Frostan Silvar	Posted - 2005.12.22 21:36:00 - [39] (Also n00b here) Training into the fighter profession since one of my friends is a miner and i can protect him from pirates while he outfits his mining ship with full mining lasers/probes. Was wondering if i should train some of my more basic gunnery/navigation skills to level 3 or 4 1st and then move on to the Learning skills or should I start training the Learning skills right away??? I may just go with your basic guide and not change it around because it seems you made it so as to learn all proffessions quickly? If so that would be nice in case i ever became bored of being a fighter pilot (pfft ya right) and wanted to perhaps switch to trade/miner/manager etc. etc. but if any1 wants to take the time to make the most optimal list of learning skills to train for fighter and miner would help me and my buddy out a lot. (also many of the other n00bs i've meet in my 2 days of playing the game seem to be based around wanting to either be miners/fighters/traders so optimal guides for all 3 would be nice for the "majority" professions as i would call them) I am an Asteroid. I am a drifter and apathetic. http://quiz.ravenblack.net/videogame.pl
Actreal Nemandi	Posted - 2005.12.23 01:24:00 - [40] Originally by: chicos tar Sorry - noob question. As i level up learning skills, is the base attribute value that is is applicable to increase by 1 for each level gained? Thanks for the help. I'm fairly noob too, but I can answer this one. You are correct, all Learning skills increase an attribute by 1 for each level except "Learning" itself which applies a 2% modifier to the Attributes for each level. I found this guide very helpful for skilling up my own character, but the list of skills does not take into account that "real" new characters (with no ISK) will have to learn other skills mixed in with the Learning skills. In that case, noobs (like me) should consider taking the relevant Learning skill to level 1 or 2 before training up Gunnery or Spaceship Command (in this case Spatial Awareness) rather than slavishly following Tripoli's (otherwise excellent) list. Level 1 or 2 in any Basic Learning skill pays itself off in hours, if not minutes.
Xasz	Posted - 2005.12.23 04:00:00 - [41] Great guide, all of your guides are excellent. Keep up the good work!
WAYNE MIA	Posted - 2005.12.23 15:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Frostan Silvar (Also n00b here) Training into the fighter profession since one of my friends is a miner and i can protect him from pirates while he outfits his mining ship with full mining lasers/probes. Was wondering if i should train some of my more basic gunnery/navigation skills to level 3 or 4 1st and then move on to the Learning skills or should I start training the Learning skills right away??? I may just go with your basic guide and not change it around because it seems you made it so as to learn all proffessions quickly? If so that would be nice in case i ever became bored of being a fighter pilot (pfft ya right) and wanted to perhaps switch to trade/miner/manager etc. etc. but if any1 wants to take the time to make the most optimal list of learning skills to train for fighter and miner would help me and my buddy out a lot. (also many of the other n00bs i've meet in my 2 days of playing the game seem to be based around wanting to either be miners/fighters/traders so optimal guides for all 3 would be nice for the "majority" professions as i would call them) Hi Frostan, You are thinking on the right track but you can`t forgo the other training skills because if you look at each skills, you will see the primary and the secondary learning skills that will affect the skill you wanna learn and its the same for the miner or fighter or trader, even if you want to concentrate on one profession, follow the learning curve explained earlier. I learn the way by always looking at the info off the skill i wanna get and see what attribute affect it. And with this you will see that you have to take all the learning skills, but like i am doing with my 2 accounts, i learn a level on each learning skills and see what i wanna learn on the other skills, usually i go up to lvl 2, because from some minutes to almost 2 hours max you can start using better equipment. Anyway, need any help, find me when i am in-game and i will help you out.
Frostan Silvar	Posted - 2005.12.23 23:52:00 - [43] ah ok i think i understand what you're saying so one skill affects the abilities' training time primarily and the secondary skill would, by my guess, most logically help train the skill around half as much as the primary? Anyway I'm having a hard time balancing out whether i should get my Learning skills up asap or if it's better to get some of my profession skills to level 4 at least and then switch to learning... the guide here is helpful just seems hard for a new person to be able to figure how to balance learning with their main skills. Most of my skills including Learning are around Level 3 now though except Gunnery I started at Level 4 since I choose Fighter as my profession im guessing. I am an Asteroid. I am a drifter and apathetic. http://quiz.ravenblack.net/videogame.pl
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.27 05:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Frostan Silvar so one skill affects the abilities' training time primarily and the secondary skill would, by my guess, most logically help train the skill around half as much as the primary? Correct. The secondary attribute listed for a skill has exactly half the effect of the primary attribute. Originally by: Frostan Silvar Anyway I'm having a hard time balancing out whether i should get my Learning skills up asap or if it's better to get some of my profession skills to level 4 at least and then switch to learning... This is totally up to you. The most efficient thing to do would be to go ahead and train learning skills, but the more entertaining option could be to continue training up other skills. ---
Crobain Stalker	Posted - 2005.12.27 10:54:00 - [45] In my "learning" category I can only see the skill "instant recall" to be trained... how do i train the others?
Frostan Silvar	Posted - 2005.12.27 12:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Frostan Silvar on 27/12/2005 13:00:35 ok, thanks trip, the 1st 3 on the list are at level 4 and i've decided to take some of my basic fighter skills, afterburner, engineering and social skills up a bit so i can start doing Agent Level II missions. After i can start doing those then i'll head off to work on that list again. Also train'd Spacial Awareness to level III early so some of my fighting abilities would increase a tad faster. I am an Asteroid. I am a drifter and apathetic. http://quiz.ravenblack.net/videogame.pl
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.28 03:25:00 - [47] Originally by: Crobain Stalker In my "learning" category I can only see the skill "instant recall" to be trained... how do i train the others? You will have to purchase the remaining 5 so-called basic learning skills off the market. They are listed under Skills & Accessories --> Skills --> Learning. The 6 basic Learning skills cost 31,500 to 45,000 isk each and include Analytical Mind, Empathy, Instant Recall, Iron Will, Learning, and Spatial Awareness. Once you have purchased the skills, you'll fly to the station where they are located and you'll find them sitting in your items hanger waiting for you. Right click on each one and select "Train Skill." This will add them to your skillsheet. You can change the skills you're working on without penalty, so when the window pops up that says "Switch Skill Training," just click OK. ---
klok718	Posted - 2005.12.29 07:37:00 - [48] this is just my 2 cents here but note to noobs: dont even worry about implants now. By the time you can afford them most of your skills will be trained up pretty well.
Festh	Posted - 2005.12.29 11:47:00 - [49] hey, a newbie here. ive only played a week and im wondering why wait 77 days or so to get a few good items on the ship? i mean you can easily buy and equip a punisher with an after burner, plating and recharger and such if you pick a few skills from mechanic, engi, frigate and such? if this list of skills take 77 days, or so, to get, ill be flying a newbie ship for a very long time, because there is no skills on the list that will give me access to better ships?
Harold Griffin	Posted - 2005.12.29 16:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Festh hey, a newbie here. ive only played a week and im wondering why wait 77 days or so to get a few good items on the ship? i mean you can easily buy and equip a punisher with an after burner, plating and recharger and such if you pick a few skills from mechanic, engi, frigate and such? if this list of skills take 77 days, or so, to get, ill be flying a newbie ship for a very long time, because there is no skills on the list that will give me access to better ships? This list is purely meant as an optimal list to get to all the skills you want, and that you are unbiased to any attribute. IE if you plan to use memory as much as perception, and you're going to learn all learning skills equally, then this is the optimal route. In fact, in that case, even if you stray for a while, it is ALWAYS optimal to even return to this path. So again, this is the optimal path if you do all things balanced. If for example you plan (extreme case) that you'll never use Charisma as an attribute for any skill, then learning the charisma learning skills are wastefull. Same applies if you take it less stern. Say for instance that the skill path you've laid out is more a combat specialist: of the total amount of skillpoints your whole plan includes (say 3 million, it's small, but say if) And of that list, the primary attributes are: 50% perception 30% willpower 20% intelligence Of the secondary attributes: 40% willpower 30% intelligence 20% perception 10% memory the way you rank each attribute now is thus: (50+20/2) perception: (30+40/2) willpower : (20+30/2) intelligence : 10/2 memory Thus: 60:50:35:5 Now raising perception has slightly more priority over raising willpower, and it has a lot of priority over memory. So raising a memory skillpoint from level 3 -> 4 might only be profitable over a very very long time (since in your planning memory is very low priority.. maybe only one skill. So raising memory learning just for that skill is kinda pointless), while perception is pretty fast payoff compared to the other attributes. This could mean that it might be best NOT to train in the order proposed in the first post of the thread, but to stop after a certain point (when your memory is sufficient. IE the payoff for the next point is too long) and go learn perception and then your normal skills. Anyway, if you didn't follow all this. The first post is based on a hypothetical situation that probably doesn't apply to you personally and you do well to spend some time to think about your goals, because only then can you devise the best plan to get there. If you don't know what you want to do at any given time (so maybe you just started and don't know you want to become a fighter, or you just completed all the skills for your fighter character and are unsure if you want to specialize into another area) this is the optimal path. But even if you have a slightest idea what direction you want to go, chances are high this is NOT the optimal path. So think of the first post as the 'skill safety line'. Learn in that order when you are lost for a while.
MEPH1ST0	Posted - 2006.01.02 13:20:00 - [51] Edited by: MEPH1ST0 on 02/01/2006 13:21:51 Hi all Thanks for this brilliant post, keep up the good work Originally by: NoNamium If you are powerleveling a new account and are able to afford implants you should use the following tree: Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 04:51:03 Instant Recall 1 Analytical Mind 1 Learning 1 Instant Recall 2 Analytical Mind 2 Learning 2 Instant Recall 3 Analytical Mind 3 Science lvl 1 Science lvl 2 Science lvl 3 Cybernetics lvl 1 Insert Basic Memory Augmentation, Insert Basic Cybernetic Implant Learning 3 Instant Recall 4 Analytical Mind 4 Learning 4 Instant Recall 5 Eidetic Memory 1 Eidetic Memory 2 Eidetic Memory 3 Eidetic Memory 4 Analytical Mind 5 Logic 1 Logic 2 Logic 3 Logic 4 Learning 5 Spatial Awareness 1 Spatial Awareness 2 Spatial Awareness 3 Spatial Awareness 4 Spatial Awareness 5 Iron Will 1 Iron Will 2 Iron Will 3 Iron Will 4 Iron Will 5 Empathy 1 Empathy 2 Empathy 3 Empathy 4 Empathy 5 Insert Basic Ocular Filter, Insert Basic Neural Boost, Insert Basic Social Adaptation Implant Focus 1 Clarity 1 Presence 1 Focus 2 Clarity 2 Presence 2 Focus 3 Clarity 3 Presence 3 Focus 4 Clarity 4 Presence 4 what about if you are using +3 implants from the start, does the list change? Its just that +3 implants only need cybernetics lvl 1 as well
MEPH1ST0	Posted - 2006.01.02 13:22:00 - [52] Its just that +3 implants only need cybernetics lvl 1 as well
Halada	Posted - 2006.01.02 14:50:00 - [53] Yes it helps a lot, and 60 days estimate for all of them is a little overkill... doing mem, then int, then learning to 5, the remaining 3 skills to normal lvl 5 takes only 3.5 days instead of 7 ...
Kirill Vladik	Posted - 2006.01.03 04:55:00 - [54] First I'm a noob, so that might explain it, but where are people finding these skills to train in? I'm looking in my Character sheet and I don't see any of the things listed below. Under the skills tab I just see the basics like Mining & Industry. Where do I need to be looking? Instant Recall I Analytical Mind I Learning I Instant Recall II Analytical Mind II Learning II Instant Recall III Analytical Mind III Learning III Instant Recall IV Analytical Mind IV Learning IV Instant Recall V Eidetic Memory I Eidetic Memory II Eidetic Memory III Eidetic Memory IV Analytical Mind V Logic I Logic II Logic III Logic IV Learning V Iron Will I Iron Will II Iron Will III Iron Will IV Iron Will V Spatial Awareness I Spatial Awareness II Spatial Awareness III Spatial Awareness IV Spatial Awareness V Empathy I Empathy II Empathy III Empathy IV Focus I Focus II Focus III Focus IV Clarity I Clarity II Clarity III Clarity IV
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.03 05:51:00 - [55] Most skills (including all of the learning skills) are available for purcahse off of the market. Most empire regions will have all the skills you need up for sale. ---
Lizan	Posted - 2006.01.04 14:12:00 - [56] I'm planning on powerleveling a new account to advanced learning 4s using +3 implant set and following the given list(thanks for it btw), I was just wondering how much do the implants actually affect training the whole list? The estimate was 60 days for all without .. so? Thanks if you can answer =o
Heavydude	Posted - 2006.01.04 18:33:00 - [57] All very helpful ta
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Lizan I'm planning on powerleveling a new account to advanced learning 4s using +3 implant set and following the given list(thanks for it btw), I was just wondering how much do the implants actually affect training the whole list? The estimate was 60 days for all without .. so? Thanks if you can answer =o Adding a full set of +3 implants could knock a significant amount of time off this training. As much as 17 days. ---
Lizan	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:28:00 - [59] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Lizan I'm planning on powerleveling a new account to advanced learning 4s using +3 implant set and following the given list(thanks for it btw), I was just wondering how much do the implants actually affect training the whole list? The estimate was 60 days for all without .. so? Thanks if you can answer =o Adding a full set of +3 implants could knock a significant amount of time off this training. As much as 17 days. Oooo that's better than I expected! Thanks for all this helpful info =]
bumbblebee	Posted - 2006.01.10 04:17:00 - [60] hi,guys is it worth the timeto train specialization skills in say like cruise missiles or any given turret ? thanks
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.10 05:09:00 - [61] Sure it is. That's what they're there for. --- WTB Rare Skills --- Bloodraider Encryption Methods Serpentis Encryption Methods Talocan Technology Yan Jung Technology
Coveney	Posted - 2006.01.10 17:37:00 - [62] Originally by: bumbblebee hi,guys is it worth the timeto train specialization skills in say like cruise missiles or any given turret ? thanks I say YES, they are worth it. <--- He made me do it.
Wargasm	Posted - 2006.01.16 20:54:00 - [63] This helped a lot.... thanks
Ser Rel	Posted - 2006.01.20 07:32:00 - [64] What if you could afford snake implants considering they give the percentage bonus and also the other implant that increases the effectiveness of all snake implants? Not sure how the implants stack but it seems like they should add a lot.
Long Redd	Posted - 2006.01.20 09:27:00 - [65] I know there used to be but does anyone know of an up to date printable skills tree please?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.21 04:20:00 - [66] Originally by: Ser Rel What if you could afford snake implants considering they give the percentage bonus and also the other implant that increases the effectiveness of all snake implants? Not sure how the implants stack but it seems like they should add a lot. Neat implants, but +4s and +5s still give a better attribute bonus. Not quite sure what exactly you're asking though. --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.21 04:22:00 - [67] Originally by: Long Redd I know there used to be but does anyone know of an up to date printable skills tree please? As far as I know there hasn't been an updated one made since Cold War. The original creator said it was getting to be too much of a pain. --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Ser Rel	Posted - 2006.01.22 23:43:00 - [68] I was wondering if the percentage bonus works on the implants attribute bonus. so instead of 3 you get more with each extra implant of the set you get.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.23 05:28:00 - [69] Edited by: Tripoli on 23/01/2006 05:28:07 Originally by: Ser Rel I was wondering if the percentage bonus works on the implants attribute bonus. so instead of 3 you get more with each extra implant of the set you get. Yes, the learning skill bonus applies to implants. If you have Learning level 5, which amouts to a 10% increase, plugging in a +3 implant actually adds 3.3 to your attribute. --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Andreysa	Posted - 2006.01.24 17:58:00 - [70] Great thread. Lots of help for this EVE noob. Who knows, after this 14-day trial is over I might end up sticking around from time to time.
Drahc	Posted - 2006.01.30 15:33:00 - [71] Great thread.. Been playing now for 6 days... I am following as close as I can.. although looking at the cost of the more expensive skills, what would be the best way to get the money to pay for them? Increase mining skills? I am currently at: Instant Recall 1 Analytical Mind 1 Learning 1 Instant Recall 2 Analytical Mind 2 Learning 2 Instant Recall 3 Analytical Mind 3 Learning 3 Instant Recall 4 Analytical Mind 4 Learning 4 (Currently training) Next is Instant Recall 5 Eidetic Memory 1 Eidetic Memory is expensive.. after I do instant recall 5.. should I switch to something else to increase my ability to make isk to pay for Eidetic Memory? Right now I've been mainly running condensed scordite for about 21k a run.. at the rate it takes me to mine the ore.. I make 21k every 20 minutes or so.. to reach 5m isk.. that would take a long time.. so what is the best way for a newbie to make cash to keep training these skills and still be able to get better ships and eqipement to haul it?
Hardin	Posted - 2006.01.30 16:13:00 - [72] To be honest it is a trade off. The 'optimal' path for growing your learning skills may mean that you have a bigger pile skillpoints 3 months down the road than someone who started at the same time as you however that does not necessarily equal a good thing. Yes you will train faster - but while you are training all those learning skills your buddy may have trained a few 'practical' skills which boost his income generation either through mining or PvE. In the long run investing in the learning skills early will pay off but in the short term you can be gimping yourself somewhat. My advice in your situation would be to get all the 'basic' (& cheap) learning skills maximised as quick as possible. Then switch to some of the more practical skills for a while while you generate the income for the 'advanced' learning skills. It may slow your learning down a little but it shouldn't really make an appreciable difference. Finally you really should consider how long you intend to play the game. If you are the sort of person that will play for 3 months and then get bored and wander off to do something else then I wouldn't advise training even the basic learning skills past 4 and focus instead on practical skills. If you already know you love EVE and will be here for at least another year then learn learn learn.... and btw - join a corporation with some older players - 5 million aint that much too a veteran and if you ask them nicely enough they may just fund your way through college
Tremex	Posted - 2006.01.31 20:30:00 - [73] You shouldn't overlook the fact that the advanced learning skills cost 4,5M a piece... I can buy myself a Battlecruiser with the money of all five...
Elsbeth Tir'ein	Posted - 2006.02.01 02:12:00 - [74] Say I spend the 60+ days training the skill tree at the beginning of this topic, at what point would I "break even"? That is when would I catch up to someone who trained little or no memory skills? Also, my character is (at least for the near future) combat focused. I don't plan on starting a corp, manufacturing, trading, etc. Which learning skills should I skip and how much would that trim off the 60 day timeframe?
P'Thloar	Posted - 2006.02.01 21:25:00 - [75] Folks...here are my observations. I am about to reach 4mill skill points. Been online since mid_September of 2005. I initially started off not knowing much about all the Learning skills, etc. and ploughed ahead with my mining skills so that I could make some ISK quick. That went well. Now, I interweaved skills between all the basic Learning skills (following the recommended path) with some other skills to remain "game worthy". I have many Engineering, Gunnery, Electronics, etc at lvl 5. I also can fly a Retriever-class barge. Now, the ONLY "advanced" learning skill that I ran was Eidetic mem...which sits at lvl IV and I found it ridiculous to push to lvl V given the time requirement (something like 19 days...). Now, when I compare to a friend of mine that started 2 weeks after I did and has the EXACT SAME amount of skill points I'm wondering what the difference is... He kinda started like me but after wrapping up his mining skills so that he could ride a barge, he went hogwild with the Learning skills, including the Advanced Learning skills. The comparisons are striking. His character's "game worthiness" just plain SUCKS since he has no real valueable game skills. The skills that he has run are all level Is...except some cruiser and battlecruiser skills that he went for... Now, he can ride a Tix but he can't FIGHT worth crap nor can he FIT the ship since he hasn't high enough level skills to help him out with this. THERE is the dilema of the entire game. This is what new players witness and are left wondering where the trade-off is. I'm able to rat and mine in .2 sec systems...and he won't even dare. He can mine sure...but he can't fight. I'm having a MUCH funner time than he is since my skills are all "tight" and even for some PvPing if I so chose. Not him... So now his character has to go through about 2 to 3 months of training in other skills (which I presume SHOULD go faster) in order to start exploring the Eve universe. Something that I have been doing for quite some time. Anyways...those are my observations.
P'Thloar	Posted - 2006.02.01 21:26:00 - [76] Originally by: Tremex You shouldn't overlook the fact that the advanced learning skills cost 4,5M a piece... I can buy myself a Battlecruiser with the money of all five... And you can FIGHT and FIT the ship, while someone that's doing the Learning skills, both basic and advanced, can only dream about.
Cap'n Jackk	Posted - 2006.02.02 08:30:00 - [77] P'Thloar, I started a little more than a month ago and have invested 800k of my 1.2 mil sp in learning skills. As I was training, I noticed I was cutting off somewhere between 6 and 8 hours of training per level (not sure of the exact time) for a rank 1 skill from 4 to 5 with that attribute as its primary attribute. By raising my mem and intel by 9 points, I have cut down my training time from 4 to 5 by between 54 and 72 hours, for every rank 1 skill with mem/intel as a primary attribute, + an additional 27-36 hours if mem/intel is a secondary attribute. So what I'm trying to say is that your friend may not have the most practical skills right now, but he will be training them much faster than you, and will have many more skillpoints. My data is for rank 1 skills. Double time saved for a rank 2 skill, triple for a rank 3, etc. Learning skills help a lot! It took me a little more than 5 days to train engineering from level 4 to 5. (Intel @ 17, mem @ 19)
P'Thloar	Posted - 2006.02.02 20:55:00 - [78] Originally by: Cap'n Jackk P'Thloar, I started a little more than a month ago and have invested 800k of my 1.2 mil sp in learning skills. As I was training, I noticed I was cutting off somewhere between 6 and 8 hours of training per level (not sure of the exact time) for a rank 1 skill from 4 to 5 with that attribute as its primary attribute. By raising my mem and intel by 9 points, I have cut down my training time from 4 to 5 by between 54 and 72 hours, for every rank 1 skill with mem/intel as a primary attribute, + an additional 27-36 hours if mem/intel is a secondary attribute. So what I'm trying to say is that your friend may not have the most practical skills right now, but he will be training them much faster than you, and will have many more skillpoints. My data is for rank 1 skills. Double time saved for a rank 2 skill, triple for a rank 3, etc. Learning skills help a lot! It took me a little more than 5 days to train engineering from level 4 to 5. (Intel @ 17, mem @ 19) I understand what you're trying to say, but I'd like to point out that while he was concentrating on Learning skills I got ALOT of skills to lvl IV (and another large batch at lvl V, thus I am a serious miner with a barge ). If I wanted to go for my engineering lvl V, it would take me about 6 days...no big deal IMHO. I'd also like to say that I DID do my basic learning skills to lvl Vs but I didn't bother with the advanced skills. Again...it all depends on what the heck you want to do in the game. Will I do my advanced learning skills...perhaps but when I see a NEED for them. Right now my skills permit me to fit and fight in my ships...effectively. My friend can't say the same...
Minia Everlast	Posted - 2006.02.14 21:55:00 - [79] Hiya ! first of all i started couple days ago, anyway i like this game pretty much. So what skills and witch order i should take em to make me a good miner? also offtopic a little but what ships to upgrade? (im gallant)
Cyriel Longinus	Posted - 2006.02.14 23:57:00 - [80] "Poor little Empathy Skill, no ones wants to train you just yet." - The Shank
Cyriel Longinus	Posted - 2006.02.15 00:52:00 - [81] Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 15/02/2006 00:53:53 Originally by: Minia Everlast Hiya ! first of all i started couple days ago, anyway i like this game pretty much. So what skills and witch order i should take em to make me a good miner? also offtopic a little but what ships to upgrade? (im gallant) Convo me, I might be able to give you job and help.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.15 05:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Minia Everlast Hiya ! first of all i started couple days ago, anyway i like this game pretty much. So what skills and witch order i should take em to make me a good miner? also offtopic a little but what ships to upgrade? (im gallant) Aside from the learning skills, Mining level 4 is very important as it allows you to use Miner IIs and is required to train Astrogeology (Science level 4 is also required). If you're brand new the Imicus is a good mining ship, also I'm told the Catalyst works well. Once you move up to a cruiser, the Exequror and Vexor are good, and the Thorax is the best. You'll also want to be able to use an Iteron to haul your ore. I recommend training up for the Iteron III, as the I & II aren't too great. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Raquaine	Posted - 2006.02.19 01:52:00 - [83] Originally by: P'Thloar Originally by: Cap'n Jackk <snip/> I understand what you're trying to say, but I'd like to point out that while he was concentrating on Learning skills I got ALOT of skills to lvl IV (and another large batch at lvl V, thus I am a serious miner with a barge ). If I wanted to go for my engineering lvl V, it would take me about 6 days...no big deal IMHO. I'd also like to say that I DID do my basic learning skills to lvl Vs but I didn't bother with the advanced skills. Again...it all depends on what the heck you want to do in the game. Will I do my advanced learning skills...perhaps but when I see a NEED for them. Right now my skills permit me to fit and fight in my ships...effectively. My friend can't say the same... It's just a question of whether you want to focus on having fun when you start, or plan for where you will be in a year's time. Over time doing the learning skills makes a huge difference, but until you know you want to play EVE long term (i.e. when you've been playing about a month or so and think - yeah I'll be playing this for at least 2 years), I wouldn't bother doing the basic learning skills past l4. To give you an idea, I'm about 1-2M skill points ahead of my the next most skilled of my corp mates (we all started about a year ago), including one who started a month before me, simply because I prioritised learning and implants more than them. But boy was it dull while I was doing them :).
Dirk Badgewick	Posted - 2006.02.27 16:55:00 - [84] Edited by: Dirk Badgewick on 27/02/2006 16:55:32 NOOB question-- I notice on some of the posts I've read (not just this thread but all over the forums) there are people who complain about the amount of skill points they have. Usually the feeling from them is they've spent too much on the wrong kind of skill points and they want to reroll. Why would they ahve this feeling? Isn't one of the benefits of this game that you can learn as much as you want in as many different areas as you want?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.28 01:55:00 - [85] Originally by: Dirk Badgewick I notice on some of the posts I've read (not just this thread but all over the forums) there are people who complain about the amount of skill points they have. Usually the feeling from them is they've spent too much on the wrong kind of skill points and they want to reroll. Why would they ahve this feeling? Isn't one of the benefits of this game that you can learn as much as you want in as many different areas as you want? Hopefully the only reason people reroll is if they discover very early on that they have a very bad attribute setup. Because of the unlimited skill system, there is otherwise no reason to reroll....ever. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.02.28 10:16:00 - [86] If this is already somewhere in here: sorry, must have overlooked it then There is an exception to the rule 'same primary and secondary attribute for all skills of the same group'. I'm pushing the advanced learning skills atm, and yesterday I noticed, horrified, that they don't take the same amounts of time to learn. Actually the attributes for them are: Clarity: Perception / Willpower Focus: Willpower / Charisma Eidetic Memory: Memory / Intelligence Logic: Intelligence / Memory Presence: Charisma / Perception (guessed this one based on the others, don't have it yet)
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.01 04:18:00 - [87] Yes, there are many exceptions to that general rule. Leadership skills and Command skills often have different attributes than the usual pair. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.03.01 06:43:00 - [88] Originally by: Tripoli Yes, there are many exceptions to that general rule. Leadership skills and Command skills often have different attributes than the usual pair. Good to know, thnx!
Blyzz	Posted - 2006.03.01 14:26:00 - [89] Hey there Guys, I've been really busy at work today doing absolutely nothing, so I got really bored and decided to make a skill difference calculator based on the formulae so kindly posted on this tread and on THIS thread However, I have nowhere to host the calculator (it's in Excel spreadsheet format). If you have somewhere that I can host the file for everyone to access, please send an email to this temporary email address IÆve set up: [email protected] Info you enter: Base Attributes Learning Skill Levels Current SP Target SP Skill category It will then give you a nice little readout of the total training time. I currently have Battleship to lvl4. Training to lvl5 with no implants: 45 Days, 7 Hours, 0 Minutes and 55 Seconds If I then add a æ+3 WillpowerÆ and a æ+3 PerceptionÆ implant, it brings it down to: 38 Days, 0 Hours, 18 Minutes and 59 Seconds More than a weekÆs reduction in time... (I have all attribs at +9 due to skills by the way) If I had only +5Æs on my attribs, my total training time would be: 60 Days, 19 Hours, 42 Minutes and 23 Seconds With no skills in learning and no implants: 117 Days, 1 Hour, 56 Minutes and 6 Seconds So with training the skills up and getting a few implants along the way, just on one rank8 skill lvl4 to lvl5, IÆd save: 79 Days, 1 Hour, 55 Minutes and 7 Seconds (if my maths is up to speed) So IÆm still looking for a place to host this calculator. FYI: Total time to train BS to lvl5 without implants and no learning skills (with my base attribs): 142 Days, 5 Hours and 20 Minutes Total time to train same skill with all skills to lvl5 and +5 implants: 39 Days, 18 Hours, 46 Minutes and 42 Seconds You can do the math on this one Blyzz
Brazero	Posted - 2006.03.08 11:03:00 - [90] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Dirk Badgewick I notice on some of the posts I've read (not just this thread but all over the forums) there are people who complain about the amount of skill points they have. Usually the feeling from them is they've spent too much on the wrong kind of skill points and they want to reroll. Why would they ahve this feeling? Isn't one of the benefits of this game that you can learn as much as you want in as many different areas as you want? Hopefully the only reason people reroll is if they discover very early on that they have a very bad attribute setup. Because of the unlimited skill system, there is otherwise no reason to reroll....ever. I started out by making an Intaki char, and at the time I knew less than nothing about attribs and such. After 5 days playing and reading forums I realized I'd created a complete moron, and down the drain he went Losing less than a week was well wort it. Another thing worth mentioning is that learning lvl5 give you an extra attrib point when you reach 10 points, and then another at 21 points. So with 8 as starting attrib, adv learnig lvl4 and a +3 implant you reach 22 points. But you need at least 8 as starting attrib.
Pytria Le'Danness	Posted - 2006.03.08 15:37:00 - [91] I had a great opportunity to see the learning skills in the works a month or two ago when I went to the test server. It had a very old version of my character that did not have the learning skills yet, and since I had just started a level 5 skill on Tranquility I could compare training time. With the learning skills (advanced to 3), it saved me roughly four days. Now if you add that up over all the level 5 skills you're going to need, it does easily pay off. I started training basic skills I needed to run missions and rat. Then I switched to training until I had level 4 in each. Level 2 missions opened up, so I took the time to increase my combat skills to do these. Then, hardcore learning until I had the advanced ones to 3, when I grew bored and started learning ships and such again. IMO, that is the best way to train: get your character operational, and then start learning skills. DO this until you desperately need some new toy, and train that (as a reward for doing the boring learning skills or such ). It definitely will be worth it in the long run. Corporation RP channel: "PlacidReborn"
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.03.09 22:52:00 - [92] Originally by: Brazero Another thing worth mentioning is that learning lvl5 give you an extra attrib point when you reach 10 points, and then another at 21 points. So with 8 as starting attrib, adv learnig lvl4 and a +3 implant you reach 22 points. But you need at least 8 as starting attrib. It doesn't give you 'an extra point'. The skill Learning raises your attributes, no matter what, appropriately. The decimals are not shown ingame, but they're there. Sure, when you start with an attribute score of 8, learn up to advanced 4 and plug in a +3 implant, with Learning 4 the game shows 21, whereas with Learning 5 it shows 22. But it's not really 21 or 22, it's 21,6 or 22,0.
Skie Inurian	Posted - 2006.03.19 05:31:00 - [93] In the earlier version of this thread I posted a list of the "best" character races to play based on the relative importance of attributes. Here is the revised list, with the same attribute weightings of 1.3 for mem, 1.2 for int, 1.1 per, 1.0 for will and 0.8 for charisma. Character races at the top give a "better" character for all-over skills training. 1CaldariAchuraStargazers 2CaldariAchuraInventors 3CaldariDeteisMerchandisers 4GallenteIntakiReborn 5AmarrAmarrWealthy Commoners 6CaldariAchuraMonks 7CaldariDeteisScientists 8MinmatarSebiestorTinkerers 9MinmatarVherokiorRetailers 10MinmatarVherokiorDrifters 11CaldariCivireEntrepeneurs 12AmarrAmarrReligious Reclaimers 13MinmatarBrutorWorkers 14CaldariDeteisTube Child 15GallenteGallenteMiners 16MinmatarSebiestorRebels 17MinmatarVherokiorMystics 18GallenteJin-MeiSaan Go Caste 19AmarrKhanidZealots 20GallenteIntakiArtists 21AmarrKhanidCyber Knights 22AmarrAmarrLiberal Holders 23AmarrNi-KunniBorder Runners 24GallenteJin-MeiJing Ko Caste 25AmarrKhanidUnionists 26GallenteIntakiDiplomats 27AmarrNi-KunniNavy Veterans 28CaldariCivireMercs 29MinmatarBrutorSlave Child 30GallenteGallenteImmigrants 31MinmatarSebiestorTraders 32CaldariCivireDissenters 33GallenteJin-MeiSang Do Caste 34MinmatarBrutorTribal Traditionalists 35AmarrNi-KunniFree Marchants 36GallenteGallenteActivists
Skie Inurian	Posted - 2006.03.19 05:36:00 - [94] Some discussion on the forums has made me revise the weightings slightly. I think perhaps the priority given to int and mem in the chart above is perhaps too high. Here is the top-10 with slightly different weightings. I used 1.2 for mem, 1.1 for int, 1.1 per, 1.0 for will and 0.8 for charisma. 1CaldariAchuraStargazers 2CaldariAchuraInventors 3CaldariAchuraMonks 4CaldariDeteisMerchandisers 5GallenteIntakiReborn 6AmarrAmarrWealthy Commoners 7CaldariDeteisScientists 8CaldariCivireEntrepeneurs 9AmarrAmarrReligious Reclaimers 10MinmatarBrutorWorkers Those Achura feature highly in all lists!
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.19 07:51:00 - [95] You and Deileon could have a fascinating and informative conversation. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Eiskalt	Posted - 2006.03.23 12:07:00 - [96] Did I miss something or why should "Eidetic Memory" and "Logic" not be trained to V? Don¦t they pay off? No amount of balancing can fix playing like a moron!
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.24 03:20:00 - [97] Originally by: Eiskalt Did I miss something or why should "Eidetic Memory" and "Logic" not be trained to V? Don¦t they pay off? Each advanced learning skill has an average payoff time of 266 days. So, yes it will eventually pay off if you stick with EVE long enough, but it takes a long, long time. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Dimitri H	Posted - 2006.03.24 17:05:00 - [98] So, after reading all this, I'm getting the feeling, that if I spend the time to at least get all of the learning skill to level 4(this takes about a month?), I'll be able to at least "catch up" on the time spent if I play 3-4 months after that? I'm at the point where I'm almost comfortable with the # of pratical skills I have..
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.25 00:46:00 - [99] Originally by: Dimitri H So, after reading all this, I'm getting the feeling, that if I spend the time to at least get all of the learning skill to level 4(this takes about a month?), I'll be able to at least "catch up" on the time spent if I play 3-4 months after that? Training the advanced learning skills requires level 5 of the basic skills. In total, this will take you around 2 months and will pay off in 9 months. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Elrich Zann	Posted - 2006.03.26 15:46:00 - [100] First let me say Thanks to Tripoli for a great list. Being a relative noob (1.5 mil skill points) let me chime in that unless you are independently wealthy you will have to train some non-learning skills to make the money to buy the advanced learning skills. Sure it's optimal to train them first, but realistically you won't enjoy the game riding the beginning frigate for weeks. For me I'm mixing in basic learning and advanced learning while training to optimize my ship. Nonetheless I will train all to advanced learning to +4 before I hit 3.5 mil skill points. Based on my character, when done I should save 21 days training up to battleship 5.
CardboardSword42	Posted - 2006.03.28 16:43:00 - [101] Is there a program out there for planning skill training? I remember using a Java program a while ago but I can't find it anymore Your Sig is to large, please read the forum rules - Ductoris
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.29 05:27:00 - [102] Originally by: CardboardSword42 Is there a program out there for planning skill training? I remember using a Java program a while ago but I can't find it anymore The EVE Character Manager may be useful, though I've never tried it as I wrote my own in Excel. --- Skill Collector Level 277 skills trained.
Caius LiviusCerso	Posted - 2006.03.30 21:39:00 - [103] Help please! When I chose the bloodline I get one seto f numbers: 8/3/7/6/6 and after geting a profession when I enter in the game the list changes!! It becomes different like some profession give extra boost to some abilities. Can someone post which professions give boost to what ability? I would like to train a fighter with not so low intell and memory. thanx. PS Why don't they give us a point buy system? The termination timer is awfuly long for testing other characters!
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.31 07:08:00 - [104] Specific information on the bloodlines isn't my specialty. You might try asking Deileon. He seems to keep pretty up-to-date on that stuff. --- Skill Collector Level 277 skills trained.
Cheeb Aman	Posted - 2006.04.02 01:04:00 - [105] Originally by: CardboardSword42 Is there a program out there for planning skill training? I remember using a Java program a while ago but I can't find it anymore I'm actually in the process of developing a VB based program for help with predicting skill training times, and the ability to modify basic and advanced learning skill levels and implant attributes bonus, using the info from the xml you can download on the eve site. Its currently in beta but if anyone is interested in trying it, then evemail me and i'll pass you the link to download it. (currently working on the code to allow you to pick the skill you dont have and want to train to and it will calculate exactly how long it will take you to get to that point, hopefully should have that completed and uploaded over the next few days.)
Wiccan Moon	Posted - 2006.04.03 10:04:00 - [106] WOW! what a guide, nice one dude, although I am still a little bit lost, seeing as all this training is hugely time consuming, how do you fix training those learning skills in with everything else like ship skills and weapons and what not, and also what is the most effective way for speed up my training times. Thanks!
Skie Inurian	Posted - 2006.04.05 08:50:00 - [107] Training learning skills to the absolute max is only for those who are likely to play eve long-term. I havent done the numbers, but I'd guess that training all 5 basic learning skills to level 4 along side more interesting skills should pay off in about 3 months or so. Even trial account people would see some benefit training these to level 2 or 3, since that takes a few hours for each rank1 skill. I've recently started a new character and I'm training up just the basics in each area. That means all 5 learning skills get a boost while i'm online and the short training times tick over quickly. I'm training up frigate and spaceship command while offline, since they are the only ones with training times in the days at this point. Other key skills are the "root" skill in each area; gunnery in gunnery, industry in industry etc. Total cost for the ~50 skills my new alt has was a bit over 1 mil ISK. Sometime later, I'll buy the advanced learning skills. For now there's no point, since none of the basics are near level 5 yet. Also, this alt has been entirely self-funded. Most of the ~2mil isk net worth has come from ratting and mission running in higher sec space. Get at least minimal refining skill and refine your rat loot! I havent bothered much with implants for any of my characters for two main reasons: I cant afford them, and I couldnt afford to lose them if podded.
Skie Inurian	Posted - 2006.04.05 09:04:00 - [108] Originally by: Caius LiviusCerso Help please! When I chose the bloodline I get one seto f numbers: 8/3/7/6/6 and after geting a profession when I enter in the game the list changes!! It becomes different like some profession give extra boost to some abilities. All the calculations I (and others before me) have been done using the "custom" profession. All races have the same total for the initial 5 attributes and 5 more points can be allocated during character development. Selecting one of the professions presumably puts those 5 optional points in for you. Fighters most likely get will and perception boosted. I'll jump on and create a few test alts of the various professions and see where the numbers go.
Dubhar	Posted - 2006.04.09 15:42:00 - [109] This is good information, however there is one thing I don't understand. I realise that a Rank 2 skill will take longer to learn than a Rank 1 skill, however how does the game determine what is a Rank 1 or 2 skill? I'm totally unclear on this. Is it racial, bloodline, attributes...something else? Also is it set in stone from the start, or can I change it as I go along? Any help would be appreciated, and apologies if it's covered elsewhere and I just missed it.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.10 03:50:00 - [110] Originally by: Dubhar This is good information, however there is one thing I don't understand. I realise that a Rank 2 skill will take longer to learn than a Rank 1 skill, however how does the game determine what is a Rank 1 or 2 skill? I'm totally unclear on this. Is it racial, bloodline, attributes...something else? Also is it set in stone from the start, or can I change it as I go along? Any help would be appreciated, and apologies if it's covered elsewhere and I just missed it. Rank is not something that can be changed. Each skill has a rank assigned to it. Rank is the same for everyone for any given skill. When looking at a skill on your skill sheet, the rank is shown right after the name of the skill. For example: Energy Systems Operation Rank (1) If you show info on a skill, the Rank is displayed as the "Training Time Multiplier." --- Skill Collector Level 278 skills trained.
Kivers	Posted - 2006.04.19 17:33:00 - [111] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: CardboardSword42 Is there a program out there for planning skill training? I remember using a Java program a while ago but I can't find it anymore The EVE Character Manager may be useful, though I've never tried it as I wrote my own in Excel. Eve Character Manager is a god send alright - would recommend everyone give it a try
Lanu	Posted - 2006.04.21 14:45:00 - [112] Meh I want Willpower / Memory based skills ( will as primary and mem as secondary ). Would be totaly awesome SP/day wise. The Exotic Dancer will not survive intact, if transported in a giant secure container. This sig has been warp scrambled for 10 points (someone get the pwnage device) - Vanamonde activates pwnage \o/ Explosions make everything better :D -Kaemonn
Eralis	Posted - 2006.04.25 00:32:00 - [113] Level 5 Advanced skills will almost never pay off. After reading this thread, I'm pretty sure nobody has computed breakeven time for skills correctly. The thing to understand is, "What does training a learning skill do?" Each level of learning skill does the same thing: It lets you train ONE additional skill point per minute in skills where that attribute is primary, and half a skill point per minute in skills where it's secondary. If you have learning trained to level 5, you actually get an additional 1.1 or 0.55 skill points per minute instead of 1 or .5. So, how long does it take to break even on training up a skill one more level? Simple: If you train one more skill point per minute, it's going to take you the same number of minutes of training to break even as it took you skillpoints to train the skill - but only when training skills that have that attribute as a primary skill. So how long does it take to break even when training, say, Logic to level 5? Well, it takes 632235 skill points to take an advanced skill from 4 to 5, so it'll take 574759 minutes (632235/1.1 because of learning level 5) of training for your character to have the same number of skill points in other skills as you would have if you hadn't trained 4->5 in the first place. 574759 minutes = 399 days (1 year and 34 days) - If you ONLY train skills that have Intelligence as the primary attribute. If you train half with primary and half as secondary, it'll take you about 1.5 years to break even. If you train "random" skills, on average, your extra level of Logic will be worth an extra .33 (1.1/5+.55/5) skill points per minute, taking you an average of 3 years, 235 days to break even. Keep in mind though that you only break even on total skill points at this point - you also played for over three years with less "useful" skill points than if you hadn't dumped 600k skillopints into a learning skill. It's going to take you ANOTHER 3 years, 235 days to break even when you consider the amount of time you were able to use your skill points. So is training to level 5 worth it? Almost certainly never, with the possible exception that if you are going to train for a Capital ship, it's probably worth training Clarity to level 5 as Perception is the primary attribute for spaceship command, missiles and gunnery, which you'll get a years worth of training in on in not too long. For this reason, I also think Int and Memory are overrated for characters looking to fly big ships, as any extended time you'll spend on the learning skills due to lower int and memory will be quickly made up on those rank 16 spaceship command skills.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.25 06:09:00 - [114] Originally by: Eralis After reading this thread, I'm pretty sure nobody has computed breakeven time for skills correctly. That so? Originally by: Eralis If you train "random" skills, on average, your extra level of Logic will be worth an extra .33 (1.1/5+.55/5) skill points per minute, taking you an average of 3 years, 235 days to break even. Looks familiar. 3 Years, 235 Days, 11 Hours, 3 Minutes, and 38 Seconds to be exact, and those numbers are not effected by implants, base attributes, balance between int/mem and other attributes, nor anything else. Though you went about calculating it with a few less (granted, unnecessary) details, our numbers in fact agree completely. Here is where your logic (slight pun intended) is flawed: Originally by: Eralis Keep in mind though that you only break even on total skill points at this point - you also played for over three years with less "useful" skill points than if you hadn't dumped 600k skillopints into a learning skill. It's going to take you ANOTHER 3 years, 235 days to break even when you consider the amount of time you were able to use your skill points. First of all, your definition of a ôbreak evenö point and mine are obviously quite different. Our figure of 1,915,863.63636 minutes is a pure mathematical breakeven. After 1,330 days of training a balanced skill set with an average set of attributes, you will have made up all the skill points you would have otherwise received had you never trained the last level of all 5 advanced learning skills. The thought that the time could have been spent training something else is entirely the point of calculating this number. Stating that it would take an additional 3 years 235 days to pay off this training time is simply not true. LetÆs say the skill you decided to wait to train until after you finished the learning skills was Production Efficiency level 5. Using your reasoning, during those two months of learning skill training you wouldnÆt have built anything. Or if the skill was Gallente Battleship level 5, you wouldnÆt have gone around shooting things at all. Well, thatÆs obviously not the case. While training learning skills, you better believe you were building things or blowing them up, only you were doing it with 5% less efficiency. I assure you, it doesnÆt take 1,330 days to make up for thatàmaybe a couple days. Originally by: Eralis So is training to level 5 worth it? Almost certainly never, with the possible exception that if you are going to train for a Capital ship, it's probably worth training Clarity to level 5 as Perception is the primary attribute for spaceship command, missiles and gunnery, which you'll get a years worth of training in on in not too long. Ignoring the ôalmost certainly neverö comment, I think it should be quite obvious that training skills for capital ships would benefit from training Clarity 5. But why only Clarity? While no one could argue that you need a rather large number of skill points to be a capital ship pilot, perception skills alone donÆt make you good at it. Other capital skill require things like Engineering 5, Energy Emission Systems 5, Shield Emission Systems 5, Shield Operation 5, Tactical Shield Manipulation 5, Mechanic 5, Hull Upgrades 5, Repair Systems 5, Remote Armor Repair Systems 5, Jump Drive Operation 5, Navigation 5, Warp Drive Operation 5, Science 5, Drones 5, Drone Interfacing 5, Leadership 5, and all these are just to get you started. There are a whole slew of other non-perception skills required just to equip capital ships. If you really intend to be a capital ship pilot, itÆs well worth the effort to at least train both Clarity and Logic to level 5, if not all five advanced learning skills. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
Eralis	Posted - 2006.04.25 19:42:00 - [115] Exactly my point - the whole time you were producing at 5% less efficiency. Once you have broken even, you've still had the ENTIRE TIME you were breaking even where you were operating at a lower efficiency - on average, 5% right away, decreasing down to none at the breakeven point. Once you get past the breakeven point, you'll be operating at increased effeciency over where you'd be if you hadn't trained the skill - but to break even on that, it's going to take the same amount of time. If you spent 2 years getting to breakeven on skillpoints, it's going to take you another 2 years to have made up for that skill you didn't have. As for Clarity being the only worthwhile skill, those spaceship command skills are rank 8, 12, 14, 16... gunnery and missiles are all Perception as the primary skill. The ones that are not Perception as a primary skill are pretty much all rank 5 tops. I don't think there are ANY skills with INT as the primary attribute above rank 5 except jump drive stuff and outpost construction.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.25 23:54:00 - [116] Originally by: Eralis ...the whole time you were producing at 5% less efficiency. Once you have broken even, you've still had the ENTIRE TIME you were breaking even where you were operating at a lower efficiency... This is your mistake. You aren't stuck with 5% less production efficiency or whatever for two years, you're only stuck with it for as long as you were training level 5 advanced learning skills, a maximum of around two months. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
Eralis	Posted - 2006.04.26 18:41:00 - [117] No, it's not my mistake. You're relying on the fact that you're sure you're right instead of actually thinking about this. Because you're wrong. Let's say we have two characters, Alfred and Betty, who started at the same time and have learned the same skills and have the same attributes. Al decides to train Clarity to level 5, and Betty decides to train some other rank 3 skill to level 5. For the ~12 days it takes to train a rank 3 skill to level 5, what's the difference between the two characters? None. Now, after they have each trained this first skill, what's the difference? Betty has one extra useful skill over Al, which as you pointed out is probably worth 5% in some rank 3 skill, and is also probably worth the ability to quickly train rank one in the next follow-on skill. So now Betty has her level 5 rank 3 skill and her level 1 rank 5 or 6 or 7 skill, while Al has Clarity. Clearly, Betty is at an advantage. How long goes this advantage persist? Well, it persists until the breakeven point, let's say 2 years later, starting at 5% immediately after training the first skill, and gradually reducing down to 0 advantage at the breakeven point. So two years later, now Al and Betty have exactly the same skills again. So, at the two year mark, who is better off? Clearly Betty is - she now has exactly the same skills as Al, AND had more skills than he did for the past two years. When does Al make up for this disadvantage? Two MORE years later - after FOUR YEARS TOTAL. Why does it take two MORE years for Al to break even? Well, a day after the breakeven point, how many more skill points is Al going to have than betty? The answer is 1440. But the day BEFORE the breakeven point, Betty had 1440 more useful skill points than Al did. So one day after breakeven, we've only made up for ONE DAY of the 2 years advantage that Betty had - and we've only made up for the day where Betty had the SMALLEST advatage, because the day after the breakeven point, Al's advantage over Betty is MINISCULE. It's going to take another full two years (FOUR YEARS TOTAL) before Al has the 632,235 skill point advantage over Betty that Betty had over Al just after Al chose to train Clarity instead of a useful skill. So, it almost NEVER makes sense to train advanced learning skills to level 5, unless maybe you're training Clarity and are going to spend the next 3 or 4 years training Perception skills. The easiest way to get a significant, IMMEDIATE skillpoint advantage is to NOT train level 5 skills. You won't make up for it until 4 or more years later, and having that advantage now (and being able to use it now) is better than having that advantage 4 years from now.
Eralis	Posted - 2006.04.26 18:52:00 - [118] Edited by: Eralis on 26/04/2006 18:53:03 Also, when you say 2 months, if you actually train all 5 advanced skills to level 5, which does indeed take 60 days, you're not down 5% in one skill, you're down 5% in FIVE skills. Well, actually, you're probably down more like 15% in 20-30 skills, as most starting characters won't spend two months training 5 other rank 3 skills to level 5, but would train lots of rank 1 or 2 skills to level 3 in the time you're spending training rank 3 skills to level 5. You're talking about the difference between having level 5 Clarity, Logic, Ededwhatever Memory, etc, or having level 1 cruise missiles, battlecruisers, etc. And if you train all 5, you're going to be behind someone who didn't for 3.5 years (the breakeven point where your number of non-learning skills will be equal to someone who stuck with level 4 learning skills) and it'll be 7 years before you make up the advantage they had on you for the first 3.5 years. Actually, even that's not really true. Because characters get a lot more POWER per skill point early on than they do later on. 3.5 years in, you'll be ahead in skill points while training something like Capital Ships 3, while right off the bat the person who didn't is ahead with several levels in several different skills since early skills are much easier to train. So, yeah, breakeven for Level 5 advanced learning skills is pretty much never, and if you trained them all to level 5, you basically just wasted 2 months. Sorry to burst your bubble, but we shouldn't let you push your misinformation onto other players so they make the same mistake.
Dv8Mutt	Posted - 2006.04.26 20:10:00 - [119] So Eralis, what you are saying, is that having time taken off of other skills doesnt ever pay off? I am no mathmatician but it seems to me if I spend 2 months of time, that will take HOURS off of training lvl 5 skills ( not taking into acct the training of the skills below it ) there would be a pay off, and it wouldnt be a forever type of thing.
Eralis	Posted - 2006.04.26 20:47:00 - [120] What people don't understand is that the breakeven point is NOT when the investment HAS paid off. You invest two months and 3 million skill points training the 5 advanced learning skills to level 5. After 3.5 years, when you get to the breakeven point, how many more non-learning skill points do you have? NONE! Zero. Zip. After 3.5 years, you are dead-even with another character who didn't go for level 5 in the advanced learning skills. You have gained NOTHING. The breakeven point (3.5 years) is only where your investment STARTS to pay off. At 3.5 years + 1 day, you'll have gained an extra 1,440 skill points. That's it. Is having 1,440 extra skill points 3.5 years and a day from now worth NOT having 3 MILLION skill points 2 months from now? I don't think so. But a character who DOES NOT train those skills up will effectively have THREE MILLION more skill points than you do in 2 months. It will be SEVEN YEARS before you have a three million skill point advantage over them. In a game like Eve, that may not even exist in seven years, seven years is close enough to never to be considered as never. Even if Eve lasts forever, if you consider that the character with 3 million more useful skill points right now is also doing better missions, making more isk, etc, you'll probably NEVER catch up - they will be able to use the advantage they get now to overcome and advantage you get from extra skill points 7 years from now.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.27 00:38:00 - [121] Edited by: Tripoli on 27/04/2006 00:39:40 Originally by: Eralis No, it's not my mistake. You're relying on the fact that you're sure you're right instead of actually thinking about this. Because you're wrong. I had a feeling you were going to say I wasn't thinking about this thoroughly, and I assure you, I am. I'm always the first to admit when I'm wrong. Anyways... Really, where our difference in opinion lies is not in any of our math, it is in our definition of the "payoff" or "breakeven" point. Calling yours a mistake may have been, well, inaccurate. Your definition is based on a player's actual theoretical progress in the game. You are, of course, correct that given perfect circumstances (as all our calculations are based on) it would take my payoff time times two to equal yours. For this very reason, people like Deiloen, while confirming my mathematical breakeven, have always said it would take much longer for this to actually become worthwhile. For the past several years, people have asked how long it would take until training various learning skills would "pay off." When I asked for a more specific definition of "payoff" I always got the same answer: They wanted to know when they would have as many useful skill points as someone who hadn't trained those learning skills. This is why I have always calculated payoff as I do. Aside from that reason, there is one other that has always made me stick to my definition of "payoff." While you're right that overall progress is potentially behind, once the mathematical breakeven point has been reached, the player that did train the learning skills is now at an advantage. Their skills from that point on will always be superior to the other player's. They'll finish every skill from then on earlier than the other. After that point, their battleship is better, or their science skills are better, or whatever. So really, it all boils down to what's more important for you. Do you want to start being better than everyone else after the mathematical breakeven, or do you want to spend twice that long having progressed farther than whoever decided to train learning skills? I can easily see people going either way. I believe your definition would tend to be more in favor of science and industry situations, while I believe mine tends to favor combat. Of course none of this applies to people who take the same attitude as me. I maxed out my learning skills because I wanted the highest possible attributes and the most total skill points. Payoff has always been a non-issue for me. I can train most skills faster than most players, and that makes me happy. My "payoff" was the moment I finished training the advanced learning skills. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Sun Bo	Posted - 2006.05.07 23:38:00 - [122] Thanks for this guide Tripoli - I am following it as we speak!
CH Tan	Posted - 2006.05.17 01:41:00 - [123] Hi Tripoli, I really find your guide extremely useful, so much so that I'm following it as closely as possible. Thank you so much!
Galvanti T'kren	Posted - 2006.05.17 19:05:00 - [124] I'd like to add my thanks to Tripoli. I've been following this guide pretty religiously since I started my character a few weeks back. One thing I'd question is the need for Presence lvl 4. Using EVEMon, I have my skills planned out til next January (earlier if I get some decent implants). Not a single one uses Charisma and moving Presence 4 all the way to the bottom had no effect on my completion times. Learning lvl 5 is also a bit iffy, since its "payback time" is many, many months, but I guess for the long term, it's good to get out of the way. Bit of an obvious piece of advice for fellow noobs: if you're a bit daunted by the nearly 60 days of training for all the Learning Skills, remember you can intersperce some practical skills in there w/o loss of efficiency. For example, once I'm done with Logic IV & Learning V, I'll be training a number of short, but useful, skills that only require Int & Mem like Mining, Electronics, Shield Management and Engineering. Anyway, thanks again for a great guide. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.18 01:18:00 - [125] Your praise is most appreciated. You're right that Presence 4 most likely isn't a good idea at this point in the game. Hopefully in the future CCP will make it a more useful attribute. Learning 5 is actually a pretty good skill, but the year or so payoff can be a bit daunting. Save it for when you're on a short vacation or something. You'll be glad you trained it eventually. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Dr Slurm	Posted - 2006.05.18 05:08:00 - [126] Trade skills are as follows: c = charisma w = willpower m = memory P: primary S: secondary Accounting: P: C S: M Broker Relations: P: W S: C Day Trading: P: C S: M Margin Trading: P: C S: M Marketing: P: C S: M Procurement: P: C S: M Retail: P: W S: C Trade: P: W S: C Visibility: P: C S: M Wholesale: P: C S: M Tycoon: P: C S: M C = total 8 Skills as primary, 3 as secondary W = total 3 skills as primary, 0 as secondary M = total 0 skills as primary, 8 as secondary Obviously Charisma is the most important to a Trader, and Memory being the second most.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.22 03:21:00 - [127] Originally by: Hardin Thanks again Tripoli and I hope this gets somewhere near the 86,000 read the first thread got. Hardin 86,000 reads: Check. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
EMPstrike	Posted - 2006.05.23 17:42:00 - [128] very helpful, thanx man.
DarkWolf555	Posted - 2006.05.25 05:49:00 - [129] Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 05:33:59 Here are the various skill groups and which attributes are typically primary and secondary for them: Drones: Memory / Perception Electronics: Intelligence / Memory Engineering: Intelligence / Memory Gunnery: Perception / Willpower Industry: Memory / Intelligence Leadership: Willpower / Charisma Learning: Memory / Intelligence Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower Navigation: Intelligence / Perception Science: Intelligence / Memory Social: Charisma / Intelligence Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower Trade: Willpower / Charisma Personally, I think a balance of attribute points in Intelligence, Memory, Perception, and Willpower will serve you best in the long run. Even if you intend to be an ace fighter which requires high Perception and Willpower, a lot of the secondary skills that are required to make a really good fighter (such as Engineering and Electronics) require good Intelligence and Memory. Intelligence and Perception are, in my opinion, the most important attributes in the game. I hope that you will find this information helpful. I always welcome questions and comments. IÆll try to keep this information up to date for yÆall. Tripoli, I noticed. Its very minuscuel but you left out Corporate Management tab.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:16:00 - [130] You'd think after a year I might notice that. Fixed. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Hekmatyar	Posted - 2006.05.28 22:39:00 - [131] Is it possible that one day, CCP allows players to rebalance their attributes because I pull all of them in charisma when I began Eve Online and OMG, I feel like an handicap. With Advanced Learning to 3 and Implants+3, I only have 3 in willpower for example!!
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.29 16:02:00 - [132] CCP will never let us change our base attributes, but I'm sure they're planning on making charisma a little more useful/necessary. There are also other attribute-boosting things that will be coming out. Boosters and DNA Mutators, for example. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Phaeton Prime	Posted - 2006.05.29 18:51:00 - [133] Edited by: Phaeton Prime on 29/05/2006 18:56:27 Eralis seems right to me. The skillpoints spent on learning has diminishing returns that will only begin to pay off after the time spent investing in the learning skills is past. The advantage of the extra attribute point or two is probably not enough to train them fully unless you see yourself playing Eve more than 2-3 years from now. 2 months investment is a great deal of time spent if you're only playing for the next year or two. Meeting minimum requirements to obtain and use equipment is a much better use of your time and becomes more important the less time you will end up playing.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.29 19:06:00 - [134] The idea is really to balance the training of learning skills and useful skills. Unfortunately, no one knows how long they will be playing, so it's hard to say for sure just how high you should train the learning skills. Almost no one could argue that level 3 of the advanced learning skills is pretty much essential, though (at least for intelligence and perception). Those pay off pretty fast with the current skill set, regardless of if you prefer my payoff definition or Eralis'. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Dolph Mataan	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:15:00 - [135] Edited by: Dolph Mataan on 31/05/2006 14:19:43 Thank you, this guide was very helpful to this new player. I am not sure if I will spend much time training the advanced skills from 4 to 5 but I will probably put in a few hours a week. It just does not seem like it would pay off fast enough to warrant me committing so much potential gaming time in the next several months. ----------- Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power.
Dolph Mataan	Posted - 2006.05.31 14:21:00 - [136] On a side note my starting Perception attribute was 7 and I do have aspirations to operate a Capital ship, not sure if I want to bother re-rolling though if I intend to go through all the Learning skills first. (odd I kept getting "thread does not exist when I tried to edit my previous post). ----------- Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power.
Faergus	Posted - 2006.05.31 21:01:00 - [137] Nice Guide indeed Now i just need to find me some info on how to make money early on without having to mine endlessly, and im set Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.31 23:56:00 - [138] Originally by: Dolph Mataan On a side note my starting Perception attribute was 7 and I do have aspirations to operate a Capital ship, not sure if I want to bother re-rolling though if I intend to go through all the Learning skills first. (odd I kept getting "thread does not exist when I tried to edit my previous post). 7 Perception isn't crippling, but over a long time it could eventually make a difference. You'll find that your other attributes are important as well. Personally, I wouldn't bother rerolling. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Torazz	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:48:00 - [139] hi, just started playing and need a little help with skills. Should i learn the above skill list first BEFORE learning any others?, i presume by doing so everything becomes quicker in the long run. thks for advice :)
Dolph Mataan	Posted - 2006.06.02 13:17:00 - [140] That is the idea Torazz. As a new player you might get bored with the game if all you are doing is training Learning skills for 2+ months (assuming you keep Advanced Learning to lvl. 4 and not go to lvl. 5). Being a new player myself I got the Frigate skill to 3 so that I can atleast do lvl. 1 Agent Missions with a Kestrel to keep me busy until Learning skills are over and done with. ----------- Adventure. We do not seek adventure - only power.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.02 22:53:00 - [141] Not a bad idea to do as much learning as you can, but don't get bored of the game because of it. Get your basics up to level 3 and have some fun. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Quansit	Posted - 2006.06.02 23:08:00 - [142] Edited by: Quansit on 02/06/2006 23:09:48 As a recent newbie myself, I'd like to thank everyone for the wonderful information and for the fellow newbies that have read this far, I'd thought I'd share of couple things I've gathered here and in other places. First is, get EVEMon. ( http://evemon.evercrest.com/ ) It's a handy program that will help you plan your training out. Not only does it help you make a plan, it will make recommendations to reorder or even add additional skills if the additions will save you overall training time in your plan. This will help you see the benefits of when to train the learning skills and see that sometimes the overall plan is more efficient with more skills in it rather than less. The other thing is to don't forget you can throw in the "useful" skills while you are doing the learning to have "fun" as you go. I've added many in as I've needed stuff to fit my ship or use implants, etc. I'm 3 weeks in, having fun and my basic learning skills will be completed soon. -Quansit
Planek	Posted - 2006.06.05 03:51:00 - [143] okay, right now my character with max advanced learning skills can only get to 16 perc and willpower. imo this really sucks because when a noob creates a character, they dont know what they want to do when they get into eve as i have discovered. I started off as an empire guy into industry and now ive decided to go pvp oriented all the way about 6 months ago and i cant train fast at all. this puts a lot of players at a disadvantage. I think for a cost players should be allowed to recreate their character's base attributes once in their entire eve career. only the base ones.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.05 04:13:00 - [144] I feel your pain. I was born with only 4 Perception, which happens to be the most important attribute for skill collecting. --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Rinoa Fujiwara	Posted - 2006.06.05 22:58:00 - [145] This is an awesome guide. Well done. . Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
VVVamP	Posted - 2006.06.06 00:50:00 - [146] Briliant Guide..all of it Thanks!
Hin Vemere	Posted - 2006.06.11 03:22:00 - [147] I've uploaded the learning skills training plan in post #2 in both evemon and ECM file formats here: Evemon ECM To use them, download the file and import it into your program.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.11 08:07:00 - [148] Handy --- 283 of 312 skills trained.
Rhuff	Posted - 2006.06.22 18:08:00 - [149] Edited by: Rhuff on 22/06/2006 18:12:09 I am a brand new player. By the time I got the client downloaded and installed, I only had about 45 minutes to create my character and start the tutorial. I want to be PvP oriented, so understand that I want high Perception and Willpower. This is the route I went: Minmatar/Brutor/Tribal Traditional Republic Military/Gunnery/Improved Projectile/Advanced Projectile For my starting attributes, I put INT +2 / MEM +2 / WILL +1 I was pretty much creating this character blind, and found this tool today: http://www.dabomb.dk/eve/EveStartChar/ I realize that Slave Child was probably the better choice for the WILL+2/PERC+2, so I might as well re-create him as I'm only half an hour in the game. What department/field/specialty should I get starting out brand new to the game? Also, I see "basic" skills being referred to repeatedly in this thread. What constitutes basic skills, and in what order should I get those? When I got to the training section in the tutorial I chose learning 1, but didn't see the other options to train up my Perception or Will.
Gaius Sejanus	Posted - 2006.06.23 00:54:00 - [150] Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 23/06/2006 01:02:59 Ideally, you want to start out with the skill path that gets you to Minmatar Frigate 4 if you are Brutor/Sebiestor, or Gunnery 5 if you are the asian bloodline (whose name I don't recall offhand). Those two starting options give you huge initial boosts of skillpoints (you'll start off with roughly 100,000 with Frigate 4, and 270,000 with Gunnery 5). Can give you a 5-10 day jumpstart on your training. Offhand, I'd go: Sebiestor / Rebels / Republic Military / Ops / Command / Captain Training. Put bonus points like: +1 Perc, +1 Will, +1 Int, +2 Mem. That will give you: Perc:9 Will:8 Int:8 Mem:8 Cha:6 And then Minmatar Frigate 4, and Spaceship Command 3, and a total of over 100,00 starting skillpoints. That's a nice start to things.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.23 04:03:00 - [151] Originally by: Rhuff Also, I see "basic" skills being referred to repeatedly in this thread. What constitutes basic skills, and in what order should I get those? The so-called "basic" learning skills consist of the 6 Rank (1) skills in the Learning category: Analytical Mind Empathy Instant Recall Iron Will Learning Spatial Awareness In the guide on the first page, there is a list of the ideal training order. Simply remove the advanced skills from the list if you don't want to, or can't afford to train them right away. --- 284 of 314 skills trained.
Rhoofles	Posted - 2006.06.23 16:01:00 - [152] I rerolled my guy (Rhuff) and named him Rhoofles - the new handle I followed Gaius Sejanus advice and went the Sebiestor / Rebels / Republic Military / Ops / Command / Captain Training route. Perc:9 Will:8 Int:8 Mem:8 Cha:6 I did not know what to train during the tutorial so I went Mining 1 and Gunnery 1 and started training Spaceship Command 4 as I was not going to be home to play tonight. I really had no idea what to train as everything I had read about except for Gunnery did not appear on my character sheet. I did not see the learning skill available to train as it was when I made my first character. Is there some sort of prereq before that option is available? I completed all of the tutorial and went back to one more pirate training area to practice on my own without a tutorial. The agent wouldn't give me a mission when I went thru that part, so I'm going to try and accept an agent mission the next time I can log on. The tutorial also said that I should upgrade my Friggate and Main Weapon soon. At what point should I do that and do I need to make the ship or just buy it off of the market?
Gaius Sejanus	Posted - 2006.06.24 08:19:00 - [153] This is kind of going into a topic that would be better served in the new pilot's forum rather than skills, but in brief: Quote: I did not know what to train during the tutorial so I went Mining 1 and Gunnery 1 and started training Spaceship Command 4 as I was not going to be home to play tonight. I can't imagine that you didn't start with Gunnery 1 already, but I guess you mean Gunnery 2. Good idea on Spaceship Command 4, you'll need it eventually, and you don't ever ever ever want to be not training. Hold off on Frigate 5 for a while though. If you want to be flying battleships instead of smaller Tech2 ships, then Frigate 5 is a serious waste of training time. Quote: I did not see the learning skill available to train as it was when I made my first character. Is there some sort of prereq before that option is available? Yes, the pre-req is buying that skill on the market. Any skill you do not start with you must obtain by either purchasing it, or getting it as part of an agent reward/offer. Quote: The tutorial also said that I should upgrade my Friggate and Main Weapon soon. At what point should I do that and do I need to make the ship or just buy it off of the market? After the main tutorial, you should have been refered to and contacted by a Storyline Agent outside of the initial newbie area. For Gallente, this is Bram Vynneve in Oursulaert. I have no idea who it is for the Matari, but there must be one out there somewhere. Complete the tasks given to you by this agent and you will obtain a large amount of Minmatar faction standing, and a pretty sizeable chunk of cash. Hold off on any purchases until that time, when you can see what sort of a wallet you have to live with. Assuming the Minmatar version of this mission works the same as the Gallente one does, spend 7-9k and obtain a shuttle to do these missions in. Shuttles are about twice as fast as the newbie ship, and has just enough cargo room to haul everything these initial missions require. As for building/buying a ship, building is really not very efficient until you build up a good skill base (most notably, Production Efficiency 5). As a newbie, you will save a great deal of money in buying a ship vs making it yourself. I'm no huge expert on Minmatar frigates, but IMO you should probably be aiming for a Rifter. Hear lots of raves about that ship, and with Frigate 4, you can pilot it without any additional training.
Mr Creed	Posted - 2006.06.24 22:08:00 - [154] Originally by: NoNamium If you are powerleveling a new account and are able to afford implants you should use the following tree: Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 03/11/2005 04:51:03 Instant Recall 1 Analytical Mind 1 Learning 1 Instant Recall 2 Analytical Mind 2 Learning 2 Instant Recall 3 Analytical Mind 3 Science lvl 1 Science lvl 2 Science lvl 3 Cybernetics lvl 1 ** Insert Basic Memory Augmentation, Insert Basic Cybernetic Implant Learning 3 Instant Recall 4 Analytical Mind 4 Learning 4 Instant Recall 5 Eidetic Memory 1 Eidetic Memory 2 Eidetic Memory 3 Eidetic Memory 4 Analytical Mind 5 Logic 1 Logic 2 Logic 3 Logic 4 Learning 5 How would the optimal training order differ if I used +4 int/mem implants instead? Since you need Cybernetics IV for those it probably shifts the point at which to switch from learning skills to science. And would +4 implants save a decent amount of time on the way to advanced int/mem IV compared to +3s?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.25 23:02:00 - [155] Originally by: Mr Creed How would the optimal training order differ if I used +4 int/mem implants instead? Since you need Cybernetics IV for those it probably shifts the point at which to switch from learning skills to science. Train for implants right away, before any learning skills, if you can. Originally by: Mr Creed And would +4 implants save a decent amount of time on the way to advanced int/mem IV compared to +3s? Not really. --- 284 of 314 skills trained.
Maar T'Kmel	Posted - 2006.06.29 18:15:00 - [156] So which of the skill order-lists on the 1st page is the real one? I'm guessing the one in post #2(the "official" one), but if you scroll down the page there are a few more. If #2 is the "real" one, then maybe update the text to show it as so, otherwise the other lists on the page make just as much sense since the writers seem quite adamant as to their list if the best :)
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.30 02:17:00 - [157] Well, let's put it this way... The first portion of that list is used in the EVE-Online official Player Guide, and my list will also be appearing in EON #4. --- 285 of 315 skills trained.
Yungha	Posted - 2006.07.06 07:37:00 - [158] I just wanted to add a quick comment. As the only requirement to use +1 thru +3 implants is Cybernetics 1 (ref: Basic Ocular Implant ), and you can get Cybernetics 1 from every race except the Caldari (ref: Trak Crankers Start Character Tool ), why wouldn't you? Even with the Caldari, you can get Science up to level 3, making Cybernetics 1 trivial to train. From a viewpoint of "How can I do my Learning Skills fastest?" this should save you at least the time of getting Science and Cybernetics trained. ________________________________________ Winning is having a ship to fly home in, everything else is gravy.
Mordru Maligante	Posted - 2006.07.07 18:46:00 - [159] Optimum learning skills tweak suggestion: For those with characters who have charisma as their lowest attribute (which I assume may be a majority) - or at least lower than perception and willpower - the optimum order for training the advanced learning skills for perception, will power, and charisma would be: Clarity 1 Presence 1 Focus 1 rinse, repeat for 2, 3, 4, 5.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.07.11 03:23:00 - [160] Edited by: Tripoli on 11/07/2006 03:22:52 Really the best order for Presence, Focus, and Clarity is simply highest first. By that I mean whichever of those three attributes you have the most of, you should train it's advanced skill first, keeping the levels even, all three to level 3, all three to level 4, etc. --- 286 of 315 skills trained.
Fushigi	Posted - 2006.07.11 18:50:00 - [161] Excellent thread, Ive learned alot. thx "Black holes are where God divided by zero." - Steven Wright "In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded." - Terry Pratchet
Serpha	Posted - 2006.07.14 17:13:00 - [162] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 23/06/2006 01:02:59 Those two starting options give you huge initial boosts of skillpoints (you'll start off with roughly 100,000 with Frigate 4, and 270,000 with Gunnery 5). Can give you a 5-10 day jumpstart on your training. If you are creating a character for long term play (and not just a couple of weeks training to make a useful support alt)I think that it is a false economy to take that approach, no point picking a race and bloodline to get a particular skill to 4 or 5 you end up having charisma 8 (or similar) as a starting stat, in the long run you will lose out (for 256,000 SP, it probably wouldn't be that long actually) I created an alt recently and used the ECM to plan out the skills I wanted to learn (aiming for missiles, Raven, Nighthawk and the skills to fly them well), then adjusted the character skill points until I came up with the stats that provided the optimal training time once the learning was done. with a total training time of around 450 days to reach my goal, the optimal stats I found were from Caldari Achure (Stargazer I think) I 10 C 3 P 12 M 6 W 8 didn't start with anything special skill wise, but will be able to train up quickly once I have the learning out the way. Surprisingly, even though I only plan on using charisma for Social IV, Connections IV, Fask Talk IV and Squad Command IV (with leadership V), I roughly break even by training Presence to IV as well, so any other Char based skills that become necessarly later will be a bonus. I can't remember where the posts are with the 'weighting' values of the attributes, but I recall Int and Mem being higher (therefore more important) than Perception - this certainly wasn't the case for me. I was limited by what is actually possible with the attribs, Will 7 and Perp 13 would have been even better but was not possible. anyway, that's my contribution. some interesting views here, I guess a lot depends on whether you plan on being killer or carebear, the number of high rank skills needed in ships and weapons obviously outweight the support skills to go with them by quite a bit.
NovaghostAlt	Posted - 2006.07.18 13:13:00 - [163] Edited by: NovaghostAlt on 18/07/2006 13:14:14 Edited by: NovaghostAlt on 18/07/2006 13:13:48 Hi all! First i'd like to say what a great thread this is. Well done :) Secondly, can't work out how to switch from this delinquent alt to my main for posting - but what the hey. (edit, just saw the drop down menu for character just as i hit submit - darn) When I first started out a fair few months ago I wasn't really aware of the learning skills and their benefits even though hind-sight now shows its all fairly logical. But to any new characters out there that are slightly cautious about pumping all of their first 60 days or so into learning without actually 'playing' the game (i use the term in relation to actively pursuing a goal, be it mining or fighting etc) I would suggest skilling towards a cruiser or equivalent with fairly average peripheral skills that relate to your chosen task (engineering, turrets, mining, what have you) and then once you are comfortable with how the game works and the overall management of CPU, PG capacitor etc, then switch over to the learning skills to give yourself the added boost you'll need later on for the larger and higher rank skills that take an age without the learning skill tree. Just my $0.02 based on a lot of new players entering the game who may be disillusioned by the lack of 'things to do' whilst learning the learning skills and finding themselves switching off fromt he game. Fly safe!
Dr Goddard	Posted - 2006.07.24 06:37:00 - [164] Well something that worked for me was to balance the skills in training with the times I am actually available to log on. So, I set up a long training skill before I go to bed, and then in the morning change to one that will take me till lunch. At lunch change to another 5 or 6 hour skill till dinner then switch again. So for all you math or visual people Skill A = 6 Days 8 hours Skill B = 1 Day 4 hours Skill C = 5 hours 32 minutes So before bed, start skill A. Wake up 6 hours later change to skill B. (Skill A now = 6 Days 2 hours) Switch to skill C at lunch 6 hours later. (Skill B now = 10 hours) Just before dinner Skill C is complete, switch back to Skill B. Now log on after dinner and kids are in bed and you have one new skill competed and you made progress on two others. With this rotation I have been able to do learning skills, missile skills, nagavation skills and engineering skills all at the same time. This allowed me to jump into a cruiser in two weeks time and actually do fairly well in it. Plus, by constantly switching skills to maximize my downtime away from the game I have been able to fit lots of various mods and learn stuff about the game. I know its overkill, but I can do all my level 1 missions in a cruiser and not even worry about dying or getting hurt. I have found that I can make more money accepting kill missions and not even bothering with loot, just do the mission and get the time bonus reward. A single kill mission for a level 1 agent can make anywhere from 50-200k isk in under an hour. More depending on the mission, but over the course of a weekend I made over 6 million isk to pay for my next learning book. Just food for thought...
Tusnagari	Posted - 2006.07.31 01:43:00 - [165] man....i dont understand..I have All learning skills plus advanced ones at lvl 5 and my attributes are only: Intelligence- 18.60 Charisma- 16.60 Perception- 20.60 Memeory- 19.60 Willpower- 15.90 why in the heck is ALL of my skills so low?! i dont get it? =(
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.01 00:48:00 - [166] Lack of implants, perhaps? --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
Tusnagari	Posted - 2006.08.02 23:23:00 - [167] maybe...but like u said your base attributes were below 10, then after all your learning skills (without implants) u went to ones around 28 and such. Then i heard some people sasy that if they were maxed out they would have all attributes in the high 30's!! >_< really weird...
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.04 02:48:00 - [168] Attributes in the high 30s are not possible. To the best of my knowledge, 31.9 is the highest currently possible. --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
Capt Raman	Posted - 2006.08.05 11:00:00 - [169] I have but one question on skills and attributes... How do you guys calculate the effectiveness of attributes on training skills. I mean lets say I want to train a skill who's primary attribute is intelligence. In return I add an extra 1 point to intelligence to train that skill faster... but how much faster does that 1 point add to time saving... In other words what percentage of training time is that 1 extra intelligence attribute point to my training time... Another way to put it I guess is like this... Learning skill adds 2% to training time... how much is 1 point of attribute in percentage ? Hope it is clear :P.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.08 02:57:00 - [170] Think of it this way: Adding 1 point to a primary attribute increases your training speed by 1 SP/minute. Adding 1 point to a secondary attributes increases your training speed by 0.5 SP/minute. From there it's pretty easy to calculate payoff. --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
General Novartic Minmatar Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.08 12:27:00 - [171] Ahh, Iv always wondered how this was worked out. So let me get this correct, if I have eg 20points for eg memory then the skill we be speeded up by apx 20min. Is that correct? Please correct me if im wrong. ---------------------------------------------------- General Novartic: Security Division. If you want it Secured, me and my team can Secure it.
TWD TAOSP	Posted - 2006.08.09 03:37:00 - [172] Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 23/06/2006 01:02:59 Ideally, you want to start out with the skill path that gets you to Minmatar Frigate 4 if you are Brutor/Sebiestor, or Gunnery 5 if you are the asian bloodline (whose name I don't recall offhand). Those two starting options give you huge initial boosts of skillpoints (you'll start off with roughly 100,000 with Frigate 4, and 270,000 with Gunnery 5). Can give you a 5-10 day jumpstart on your training. Offhand, I'd go: Sebiestor / Rebels / Republic Military / Ops / Command / Captain Training. Put bonus points like: +1 Perc, +1 Will, +1 Int, +2 Mem. That will give you: Perc:9 Will:8 Int:8 Mem:8 Cha:6 And then Minmatar Frigate 4, and Spaceship Command 3, and a total of over 100,00 starting skillpoints. That's a nice start to things. Has this changed from the original stats? I started with sebiestor / captain training just after release with the following stats: Perc:9 Will:7 Int:9 Mem:8 Cha:6 Still glad I did!
Yungha Deviance Inc	Posted - 2006.08.10 05:14:00 - [173] Originally by: General Novartic Ahh, Iv always wondered how this was worked out. So let me get this correct, if I have eg 20points for eg memory then the skill we be speeded up by apx 20min. Is that correct? Please correct me if im wrong. not quite... if you have 20 points more memory than I do, you get 20 sp more per minute than I. So if a skill takes 1000 sp, and I get 10 per minute, you'll get 30 sp per minute. Takes me 100 minutes, but only takes you 30(ish) for a total savings of around an hour's time. ________________________________________ Winning is having a ship to fly home in, everything else is gravy.
Butters44	Posted - 2006.08.12 10:57:00 - [174] i've hurd a lot of stuff that is supost 2 make training skills faster n this 1 im not shore of if u get the skill with the same name as the catagory 2 level 5 (for example drones level 5) will that make all the skills in that catagory go faster
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:45:00 - [175] Originally by: Butters44 i've hurd a lot of stuff that is supost 2 make training skills faster n this 1 im not shore of if u get the skill with the same name as the catagory 2 level 5 (for example drones level 5) will that make all the skills in that catagory go faster This is simply not true. --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
Dawx	Posted - 2006.08.14 17:56:00 - [176] btw i am a noob here i dont understands as for the skills how do u all gain more points to assign to it? and is there anyway to undo those skills u learned?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.15 02:54:00 - [177] You gain points simply by right-clicking on a skill in your character sheet and selecting the option to train it to the next level. Skill points cannot be untrained once you have them, and there is no limit to how many you can have. The only way you can loose skill points is to be killed without a sufficient clone. --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
Skie Inurian Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.15 11:31:00 - [178] In case anyone is still in doubt about the advantages of training learing skills, I created a test alt and used evemon to run a few scenarios. The goal for her is to fly a carrier. She's Gallente, so I chose the Thanatos, the smaller carrier. My noob alt has a grand total of 12,000 SP and fairly balanced attributes. I made no effort whatsoever to prioritise skill selection during startup, just choosing "interesting" skills. She's a noob afterall! Without any learning skills, the bare minimum training time for this alt to fly a Thanatos: 396 days, 15 hr, 2min 4 sec. Thats way too long to wait. What about training up the learning skills? I'll take the advice of Tripoli and others and invest in learning level 5, "basic" skills to 5 and advanced to various levels and see how it goes. Note, I'm assuming that she'd eventually want to get other skills after carrier is done, so I'll train ALL attributes and not just will, per etc. Time to train Learning skills set to Advanced lvl 3: 42d 19h 39m 2s. Time to get Advanced to level 4: 56d 12h 17m 50s, about 14 days more. Time to max out the learning skills to level 5: 135d 7h 22m 31s, a further 79 days over level 4. Now, how does that effort change the time to train for carrier? Learning to A3 + Carrier: 215d 13h 44m 22s Learning to A4 + Carrier: 218d 16h 9m 14s Learning to A5 + Carrier: 288d 2h 28m 56s As you can see, training the advanced learning skills has dramatically reduced the total training time. Training the learning skills to level 3 saves you about 181 days. The extra time to train to level 4 has almost paid off, with a total saving of 178 days. The long term investment in training to level 5 still saves time but is a long way from paying off yet. Total saving of 108 days. At the end of ~220 days, I'd have a carrier pilot! However, she's got almost NO fitting skills, so this is where the level 4, or 5 learning will really pay off, since those extra 180 days can be spent becomming a GOOD carrier pilot!
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.16 13:51:00 - [179] Tripoli, you wrote earlier, that having +3 implants would safe 17 days from the total time to train all learning skills to advanced lvl 4. Later you wrote, that compared to that, the use of +4 implants would not increase that effect significantly. Is that a diminishing curve, meaning that a set of +1 implants would have the most effect in safed days per gained attribute, whith the other implant grades always a little smaller savings effect, like +1 = 8 days +2 = 13 days +3 = 17 days +4 = 19 days +5 = 20 days (not calculated, just for illustrating purposes) If it is so, could you switch on you Excel sheet and produce the correct numbers, please? Juwi Kotch
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.17 03:48:00 - [180] It's some really long, boring math to work it all out exactly, but a rough estimation is pretty straight forward... Adding 1 point to the primary attribute adds 1 SP/minute, or 1.1 SP/minute with Learning 5. Adding 1 point to the secondary attribute adds 0.5 SP/minute or 0.55 SP/minute with Learning 5. Combined, that's a 1.5-1.65 SP/minute improvement for every point you add to a pair of attributes. Making a few slightly unrealistic assumptions, you could say that adding 1 point to all attributes knocks off somewhere around 7,599 minutes, a second point 6,572 minutes, a third point 5,741 minutes, a fourth point 5,057 minutes, and a fifth point 4,488 minutes. --- 288 of 315 skills trained.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.18 08:27:00 - [181] That would be nearly 20,000 minutes or a bit less then 14 days for +3 implants, a significant lower number then the 17 days you mentioned earlier... Juwi Kotch
Flein Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.08.18 11:00:00 - [182] So, it'll take me 60 days to max out all, and I mean all! attribute skills? perception, willpower, intelligence and so on? Me=EVE noob, started 2 days ago ;)
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.19 04:06:00 - [183] Originally by: Juwi Kotch That would be nearly 20,000 minutes or a bit less then 14 days for +3 implants, a significant lower number then the 17 days you mentioned earlier... Juwi Kotch Keep in mind that my 17-day figure was calculated using fewer assumptions. The numbers I just gave you were based on several assumptions that can greatly change the time it takes to actually train these skills. I was merely doing some rough math to demonstrate how it is indeed a diminishing return for each point you add. I could figure it all exactly, but it's a real pain because you have to account for each attribute growing (and hence training speed increasing) every time you finish a skill, not to mention the fact that these calculatins vary (a lot) with an individual character's Memory and Intelligence. --- 289 of 315 skills trained.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.19 04:10:00 - [184] Originally by: Flein So, it'll take me 60 days to max out all, and I mean all! attribute skills? perception, willpower, intelligence and so on? Me=EVE noob, started 2 days ago ;) Welcome to EVE. Don't get too obsessed with the Learning skills, but do keep them in mind, as they can be a big help if you plan on playing for a while. 60 days is the approximate time it takes the average player to train all six "basic" learning skills to level 5 and all five "advanced" learning skills to level 4. Adding the 5th level of all 5 advanced skills adds another 65 days or so. Most people don't do that last level because it can takes years to pay off. --- 289 of 315 skills trained.
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2006.08.19 08:48:00 - [185] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Juwi Kotch That would be nearly 20,000 minutes or a bit less then 14 days for +3 implants, a significant lower number then the 17 days you mentioned earlier... Juwi Kotch Keep in mind that my 17-day figure was calculated using fewer assumptions. The numbers I just gave you were based on several assumptions that can greatly change the time it takes to actually train these skills. I was merely doing some rough math to demonstrate how it is indeed a diminishing return for each point you add. I could figure it all exactly, but it's a real pain because you have to account for each attribute growing (and hence training speed increasing) every time you finish a skill, not to mention the fact that these calculatins vary (a lot) with an individual character's Memory and Intelligence. Ok, thank you, that clears it up. However, the diminishing factor seems to be not that steep as I expected it to be. Given that your numbers are roughly correct, the savings would be: +1 -> a bit less then 5 days +2 -> a bit more then 10 days +3 -> a bit less then 14 days +4 -> a bit more then 17 days Juwi Kotch
RacknarFist	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:37:00 - [186] Being a new player (8 days old) it would seem to me that this guide is geared to an alt that wants to be power leveled, not necessarily for a new player starting the game. A new player can not be expected to sit around for the first 60 days of the game tooling around in the starter ship and waiting for learning skills to train up. The strategy that I am following right now was to have a goal to get all the learning skills to level 3 - a reasonable time committment, but not too hard, in addition to learning a variety of other skills in terms of engineering, frigate, gunnery, missiles etc. This allowed me to play the game and develop the character while waiting for skills to come up. I would suggest training your shortest skills first while you are actually playing the game and when you go afk switch to the learning skills, which should be level 3 or 4 (taking 6+ hours to train) and let them run over night. This will let the new guy get a couple basic weapon skills down, in addition to getting learning skills done, without a severe handicap imo. It is important to mantain practicality of your character even if it doesnt learn at the optimal rate of sp/tick. What good is a character that can learn fast(er) if it a) can't do anything with it and b) have to wait 2 months to start training any practical skills.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.08.26 02:27:00 - [187] I have stressed many times not to worry about grinding these learning skills if you don't want to, but perhaps I haven't stressed that enough in this thread. Please, please don't let the learning skills turn you away from EVE, especially in the first couple months of play. --- 290 of 315 skills trained.
Mr Fledermaus	Posted - 2006.08.31 22:15:00 - [188] Omg.... so much to train. Much thanks from a rookie, i appreciate informations like this. Yours Mr Fledermaus
Cylandria Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:44:00 - [189] Thanks for your great guide. Really helpful. This is the most indepth MMORPG Ive played yet. LOVE IT!
Cylandria Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.31 23:48:00 - [190] Originally by: RacknarFist Being a new player (8 days old) it would seem to me that this guide is geared to an alt that wants to be power leveled, not necessarily for a new player starting the game. A new player can not be expected to sit around for the first 60 days of the game tooling around in the starter ship and waiting for learning skills to train up. The strategy that I am following right now was to have a goal to get all the learning skills to level 3 - a reasonable time committment, but not too hard, in addition to learning a variety of other skills in terms of engineering, frigate, gunnery, missiles etc. This allowed me to play the game and develop the character while waiting for skills to come up. I would suggest training your shortest skills first while you are actually playing the game and when you go afk switch to the learning skills, which should be level 3 or 4 (taking 6+ hours to train) and let them run over night. This will let the new guy get a couple basic weapon skills down, in addition to getting learning skills done, without a severe handicap imo. It is important to mantain practicality of your character even if it doesnt learn at the optimal rate of sp/tick. What good is a character that can learn fast(er) if it a) can't do anything with it and b) have to wait 2 months to start training any practical skills. I was going along this line also. I am trainng basic skills to 2 during play then doing the learning skills while im offline. Im also lucky that I am able to use the client at work and change skills as time permits.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.09.01 00:48:00 - [191] Originally by: Cylandria Im also lucky that I am able to use the client at work and change skills as time permits. God, that must me nice. My work computer has a pretty decent Radeon and dual monitors, but I would be hanged if they caught me installing EVE on it. --- 291 of 315 skills trained.
Rhinos	Posted - 2006.09.03 07:31:00 - [192] ill keep this short, i tryed to servive in 0.0 with my learning skills not being top on the learning tree. i can fly a battleship and its become not fun.... im now after months of doing this have reailized how important learning skills are. it takes me almost 10 days more to learn a lvl 5 skill then my friend who spent the time getting his to 5 basic and 4 advance... i deeply agree that while you should have fun, you also need to find the time to do the learning skill tree.... but then again by skill points after almost a year of playing EvE im a noob =).... play hard cuz theres always a freak waiting to podkill you out there.... i did not know the dignaity of there birth but i saw the glory of there death, Rhinos
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.09.03 15:29:00 - [193] I always recommend mixing learning skills into your schedule. One thing a lot of people do is train learning skills overnight, and others during the day. --- 291 of 315 skills trained.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.05 02:58:00 - [194] Heyy tripoli seen me recently haven't you? Well anyways wouldn't it be faster to train all of the memory skills up first, even before the other learning skills to lvl 1 because for example if my starting memory is 5, then i train to adv lvl 4, thats 14, so im training learning skills close to 3 times as fast(dont know exact formula), then those lvl 1 skills take 10mins instead of 30, and lvl 2's take 50mins instead of 1 hr and a half and etc up the list so you would get all of your adv skills to 4 faster than if you trained instant recall to 1, then all the others to lvl 1, then 2, then 3 and so on...
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.09.06 00:27:00 - [195] Originally by: Areconus Heyy tripoli seen me recently haven't you? Well anyways wouldn't it be faster to train all of the memory skills up first, even before the other learning skills to lvl 1 because for example if my starting memory is 5, then i train to adv lvl 4, thats 14, so im training learning skills close to 3 times as fast(dont know exact formula), then those lvl 1 skills take 10mins instead of 30, and lvl 2's take 50mins instead of 1 hr and a half and etc up the list so you would get all of your adv skills to 4 faster than if you trained instant recall to 1, then all the others to lvl 1, then 2, then 3 and so on... No, you are better served by training up memory and intelligence together because of how long each next level takes to train compared to how much benefit it provides. --- 291 of 315 skills trained.
Galldar	Posted - 2006.09.08 18:13:00 - [196] At what point do you get the bonus attribute points? 21? 22?
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.09 20:12:00 - [197] Originally by: Galldar At what point do you get the bonus attribute points? 21? 22? You mean from the learning skill? Well at lvl 5 learning, you would get an xtra 1 pt at 10, and 2 at 20....so it depends...
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.10 05:31:00 - [198] Edited by: Frank Draconian on 10/09/2006 05:33:37 Originally by: RacknarFist Being a new player (8 days old) it would seem to me that this guide is geared to an alt that wants to be power leveled, not necessarily for a new player starting the game. A new player can not be expected to sit around for the first 60 days of the game tooling around in the starter ship and waiting for learning skills to train up. The strategy that I am following right now was to have a goal to get all the learning skills to level 3 - a reasonable time committment, but not too hard, in addition to learning a variety of other skills in terms of engineering, frigate, gunnery, missiles etc. This allowed me to play the game and develop the character while waiting for skills to come up. I would suggest training your shortest skills first while you are actually playing the game and when you go afk switch to the learning skills, which should be level 3 or 4 (taking 6+ hours to train) and let them run over night. This will let the new guy get a couple basic weapon skills down, in addition to getting learning skills done, without a severe handicap imo. It is important to mantain practicality of your character even if it doesnt learn at the optimal rate of sp/tick. What good is a character that can learn fast(er) if it a) can't do anything with it and b) have to wait 2 months to start training any practical skills. I agree this is the best advice for very new players. But it doesn't take long before you start running into skills that take days to train. At that point, its time to consider training up those advanced learning skills. The trouble is wanting to step up to the next ship wile waiting. What I'm doing now ( training up instant recall to 5 with more than 6 days to go), is just afk mining with an indy. I still make some money, at a slower rate, but I barely have to be at the computer. Plus, by not playing through missions or taking up other ventures, Im less tempted to delay the learning skills.
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.10 06:10:00 - [199] another practical note for new players ( not alts) about implants, they do make a noticeable difference in training times, since they essentially do what the learning skills do, but instantly. +1 implants come as mission rewards sometimes for storyline missions, and getting to a point where you can make 11-12 mill easily means you can buy +2 implants, which will speed up the process. I would suggest for new players, to get to a point where you can run lvl 2 missions without much trouble before taking your basic learnings to 5 and taking on those advanced learnings. It should only take a couple weeks to run lvl 2 missions succesfully, another week to run them easily.
Edenfall Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.09.14 23:13:00 - [200] Very helpful guide; thanks a ton for putting this together! ~ E
Jenial	Posted - 2006.10.04 01:38:00 - [201] Originally by: klok718 this is just my 2 cents here but note to noobs: dont even worry about implants now. By the time you can afford them most of your skills will be trained up pretty well. I dont agree at all within 3 weeks I have +2's and working on +3's. I think everyone should strive to get the Implants at the same time. Faster learning is faster learning. Not only that they also enable you to get some other skills and stagger the learning skills so that you can make more money to get better implants and better skills faster. I really think that implants are a BIG key to this new player learning deal. I would recommend getting them as you go +1 then +2 etc... You will get some implants doing missions and make money to buy others. I see doing the learnings all at once with out any implants as the stupidiest thing any player could do IMHO.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.10.04 04:48:00 - [202] Just remember, implants are destroyed if you get podded, so only buy what you can afford to lose. --- 293 of 315 skills trained.
Astrixx	Posted - 2006.10.06 07:54:00 - [203] OK, rather than browse through seven pages, I don't think a certain issue has been addressed here. That is, is there a GENERAL function that can take your desired skill you want to train, the level you want to train it, and output the optimal ordered path of skills needed to be trained based on what you have trained already? You've linked to the calcs in the original post, but it doesn't really make clear how you reached that optimal ordered path. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, hopefully someone understands me. I understand the math behind the skill training, I just don't understand how you take that math and create a sequential, optimal ordered list of training times.
QwEEN AmiDaLa	Posted - 2006.10.23 21:50:00 - [204] Edited by: QwEEN AmiDaLa on 23/10/2006 21:50:47 hi is there any way to boost a certain stat after you max out the skill ( for example perception--->clarity) besides expensive mods ans skill hardwiring, are the stats basically maxed out for the moment? btw how do i get my avatar to show up on the left side?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.10.25 05:21:00 - [205] The only way to improve your attributes at the moment is with learning skills and/or implants. --- 294 of 315 skills trained.
Seeker Ash Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.25 15:15:00 - [206] Re. "When does learning skills pay off", I think what has been mostly forgotten in these arguments is the fun factor. You play videogames only to have fun, right? Well it ought to be at least 80% of the reason. Obviously you can easily have more fun by training some immediately useful low level skills before going into training skills, as has been covered. But let's assume you, like me, think skill progression is inherently funny. The "Ka-ching" feeling of completing a training, I'm sure, means something to all of us. That makes each level of each training skill pay off not when your income/produce/bad guy corpse generation breaks even, and not when your number of useful skill points reaches the number they would have reached had you neglected learning skills, but instantly, namely the moment you see how much the next skill you're about to train gets reduced. And then it pays off again and again with every new skill you train. With that, let me make a suggestion if you hesitate to learn Edietic memory et cetera to level 5: Do it, and take a vacation from the game while you do it. You get around 60 days (Less if you ignore charisma, and hey, why shouldn't you?) to go out and do something different: Build a house, read a book, play with marbles, whatever. As long as you don't forget to log in and resume training when it finishes. Then when you return to the game you'll forever have shorter training times in every skill, maybe just a little but every little bit helps. _________________ "Even space ships pilots get the blues."
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.10.27 03:57:00 - [207] Exactly the way I see it. --- 294 of 315 skills trained.
EffBee Primus	Posted - 2006.10.29 13:20:00 - [208] Hi all. (Great thread by the way - I've read it all) I am a complete new starter at this game and my character is only 18 days old. The main pleasure I get from games like this is figuring out how everything works and having lots of excel spreadsheets to manage everything. I'm pottering around in a destroyer and am mining and doing missions as I see fit. I am not a power leveller and enjoy taking time to stop and smell the flowers. When i set my character up I had no idea what I was doing and ended up with Basic stats: Caldari Achura I9 P10 C4 W9 M7 I have no idea what options I chose - they meant nothing to me really. I only started training and buying implants seriously about 3-4 days ago when I had a serious read and think about the skills tree. I have already reduced the traing time for Mining (Rank I) IV to V from 12.5 Days to 8.25 Days. One point I haven't seen made in this thread is the following: In my case, in the time taken to upgrade Mining from IV to V, I could upgrade nearly 6 Rank 1 skills from III to IV, 32 Rank 1 skills from II to III, 180 Rank 1 skills from I to II, and 840 Rank 1 skills from 0 to 1! As a new player where everything is a bit mysterious it seems to me from a gameplay point of view that it is sensible to buy in and train to level 1 or 2 all skills which may be required very early on and play with the benefits from those skills. It sort of maps out your character's career plan with very, very little time overhead. Incidentally it took me nearly a whole day to read through the skills trees in the market - there is a lot there! But I have questions whose answers have only been hinted at in the threads in this forum unless I missed it... Learning is an oddball skill. Is it correct that its effects are not displayed very accurately in the attributes tab due to display rounding being set to integer rather than one or two decimal places. Does learning only work on base attributes. Does Learning work on Base attributes AND increases from other skills like "Instant Recall". Someone said that learning affects implant buffs too - please confirm. Thanks in advance...
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.10.29 15:44:00 - [209] The benefit from the Learning skill is calculated last. So to find your attribute, you take your base plus your other related learning skills plus any implant bonus, then multiply all that by your Learning bonus. --- 294 of 315 skills trained.
Daemon Jax	Posted - 2006.11.02 21:55:00 - [210] Great thread. I found learning skills to be important, but don't let it get in the way of having fun. For just a couple of days worth of training, you can get good enough with a frigate to run most level 2 missions. You can do a lot in this game with a t1 frig, so don't think you need to move onto to larger ships yesterday -- and many of the support skills that are used to fly frigates like a champion are the same ones you need to fly larger ships well. In addition, training a handful of rank 1 or 2 skills to level 3 before finishing your learning skills has a negligable effect on your overall training time. So you can play the game, have fun, and finish your learning skills.
celous Caldari Dark Skyes	Posted - 2006.11.03 16:52:00 - [211] With the training of tho skill with out implants it would take 60day right how long would it take with all +3 implants and +4 implants?
NenMaster	Posted - 2006.11.07 13:42:00 - [212] can someone please tell me how long would a noob benefit from training all learning skills to lvl 4? how many weeks, i dont need a perfect answer just a general on any build you want to supply. this will help new players choose when to learn upto this lvl, i have 3 of the learning skills to lvl4 and im looking at 6 days each for lvl5s
UclanChar	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:55:00 - [213] I would get Memory, Percetion, Willpower and Spatial Awareness to level 5, then Eidetic Memory, Logic, Focus and Clarity as far as you can to level 4. Some people leave these at level 2 or 3 but the more your train them the more you will benefit in the future. It's like all things in life, the more you put in, the more you get out of it. Regards, UclanChar.
Valerek Gallente PhoenixCorp	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:00:00 - [214] Originally by: UclanChar I would get Memory, Percetion, Willpower and Spatial Awareness to level 5, then Eidetic Memory, Logic, Focus and Clarity as far as you can to level 4. Some people leave these at level 2 or 3 but the more your train them the more you will benefit in the future. It's like all things in life, the more you put in, the more you get out of it. Regards, UclanChar. Quite true, but then they try to spook you off with the "payoff" chitchat. It all depends how long you want to stick around Eve. ------------------------- Who? Me?
shibbymonkey	Posted - 2006.11.17 14:24:00 - [215] Just want to thank all for this post. Been in-game for over a month now, and this is the best training resource that I have found yet. Know now that I couldve done better w/ my training to date, but will def use this going forward. --------------------------------------- Ever in search of new ways to turn ISK into noise and fire.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.26 07:12:00 - [216] As of November 28th, 2006 the skill requirements for the advanced learning skills will have been reduced. (Previously, all advanced learning skills required level 5 in their basic counterpart. Now, they will require only level 4.) I have updated the recommended training order accordingly. See page 1. --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
Soporo	Posted - 2006.11.26 20:23:00 - [217] Thanks,that was what I was looking for, a Revelations related update.
Spectroid 224	Posted - 2006.11.27 16:56:00 - [218] Excellent!
Minnanon	Posted - 2006.11.27 19:58:00 - [219] Originally by: Tripoli As of November 28th, 2006 the skill requirements for the advanced learning skills will have been reduced. (Previously, all advanced learning skills required level 5 in their basic counterpart. Now, they will require only level 4.) Aha thx, this edit explains my confusion! It does seem a tad unfair on existing players, since us newcomers will be able to advance our character faster than they could. But hey ho, suits me just fine!
Zeonos Amarr venus divine brotherhood Dark Forces Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.01 12:44:00 - [220] Originally by: Minnanon Originally by: Tripoli As of November 28th, 2006 the skill requirements for the advanced learning skills will have been reduced. (Previously, all advanced learning skills required level 5 in their basic counterpart. Now, they will require only level 4.) Aha thx, this edit explains my confusion! It does seem a tad unfair on existing players, since us newcomers will be able to advance our character faster than they could. But hey ho, suits me just fine! well old players still have more attrabutes when they have the skills to 5. and you cant advance faster than them anyway. :) only just as fast. but they still have many more mil in sp than you.
SpaceDrake Taleweaver	Posted - 2006.12.05 19:14:00 - [221] One thing, Tripoli. I, personally, would dissuade newbies from training Advanced Learning skills to 4 off the bat - with the skill requirement reduction, you can now train +7 to all attributes in the space of roughly a week (less if you skip Charisma for a while). The extra +1 will take a while to pay off, even though L4 in Advanced skills takes a fraction of the time that a +5 in Basics do. I really think we should be advising the nooblets to get on with training stuff that'll be useful to their gameplay ASAP - CCP has cut the Learning grind down by potential months and everyone should be encouraged to take advantage. Even then though, are you sure getting to Basics 4/Advanced 4 takes a "month"? With my new Amarr character, the Advanced 4 train is going to take usually 2 days per skill, a bit more for Charisma... add in about a week and a half total to train all five Basic skills to four, that comes down to about two and a half weeks. Obviously I'm doing some off the cuff mental math, but unless a character is heavily Memory challenged I don't think the 4/4 train takes a "month" (E.G. 4 weeks) anymore. Awesome guide, all the same. --- What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?... Former player of Andre Ricard (sold). Currently plays a Sekrit CharacterÖ.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.12.07 02:02:00 - [222] Originally by: SpaceDrake Taleweaver One thing, Tripoli. I, personally, would dissuade newbies from training Advanced Learning skills to 4 off the bat - with the skill requirement reduction, you can now train +7 to all attributes in the space of roughly a week (less if you skip Charisma for a while). The extra +1 will take a while to pay off, even though L4 in Advanced skills takes a fraction of the time that a +5 in Basics do. I really think we should be advising the nooblets to get on with training stuff that'll be useful to their gameplay ASAP - CCP has cut the Learning grind down by potential months and everyone should be encouraged to take advantage. Even then though, are you sure getting to Basics 4/Advanced 4 takes a "month"? With my new Amarr character, the Advanced 4 train is going to take usually 2 days per skill, a bit more for Charisma... add in about a week and a half total to train all five Basic skills to four, that comes down to about two and a half weeks. Obviously I'm doing some off the cuff mental math, but unless a character is heavily Memory challenged I don't think the 4/4 train takes a "month" (E.G. 4 weeks) anymore. Awesome guide, all the same. I've never been an advocate for training nothing but learning skills right off the bat. I'm merely offering the optimal training order for those who want to know. I do indeed highly recommend training whatever makes the game fun for you. I just want to make sure people are aware of how beneficial the learning skills can be for long-term players. My 1-month figure was also an off-the-cuff, late-night, slightly-drunken guestimate. While not difficult to calculate the time it would take the average player, actually going through the motions of doing those calculations is quite time consuming, and not really worth the effort because it can vary widely with player's attributes. Glad everyone seems to appreciate my work here. It's my pleasure to help the community in any way I can. --- 316 of 341 skills trained.
Ace Hawke	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:15:00 - [223] Is the Learning skill modifier always on top of the attributes or does it only apply at the time you train it? That is will you get a 10% bonus to your current stats with a Learning skill at lvl5 or will it only apply at the time you learn it. (And the every attribute after this is stacked on top of that?). Does that make any sense? =)
Dinife Dinife Corp	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:29:00 - [224] 1. I have copyed the skills from the market, to a spread sheet and got 344 skills. and i have got a break down of attributes to skills. att pri# pri% sec# sec% avg% int 123 35.75 53 15.4 28.6 char 40 11.62 13 3.77 8.8 per 101 29.36 39 11.33 23.1 will 15 4.36 117 34.01 14.1 mem 65 18.89 122 35.46 24.1 using the avg on the 39 skill points a player gets. int 11 char 3 per 9 will 6 mem 10 and it can be done. a caldari achura stargazer.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.12 17:10:00 - [225] Great Post Tripoli...it will realy help with cutting down on later skill training if you max out your learning skills early on. I'm a noob with 1mil SP so i've a long way to go yet (500,000 in gunnery though....you can see where i'm headed ) One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.12.13 03:28:00 - [226] Originally by: Ace Hawke Is the Learning skill modifier always on top of the attributes or does it only apply at the time you train it? That is will you get a 10% bonus to your current stats with a Learning skill at lvl5 or will it only apply at the time you learn it. (And the every attribute after this is stacked on top of that?). Does that make any sense? =) The Learning skill modifier is always calculated last, and the order you train skills in (or add implants) does not affect your attributes (and hence training speed) when it's all said and done. --- 316 of 341 skills trained.
Ace Hawke	Posted - 2006.12.13 16:27:00 - [227] Originally by: Tripoli The Learning skill modifier is always calculated last, and the order you train skills in (or add implants) does not affect your attributes (and hence training speed) when it's all said and done. Thanks, good to know =)
Angelis666 Amarr The Knights Of Camelot FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.01.01 09:37:00 - [228] Drones: Memory / Perception Electronics: Intelligence / Memory Engineering: Intelligence / Memory Gunnery: Perception / Willpower Industry: Memory / Intelligence Leadership: Charisma / Willpower Learning: Memory / Intelligence Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower Navigation: Intelligence / Perception Science: Intelligence / Memory Social: Charisma / Intelligence Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower Trade: Charisma / Memory Charisma: Trade / Social / Leadership Perception: Spaceship Command / Missile Launcher Operation / Gunnery Intelligence: Science / Navigation / Mechanic / Engineering / Electronics Memory: Learning / Industry / Drones Willpower: Spaceship Command / Missile Launcher Operation / Leadership / Gunnery Willpower is 'generally' a secondary attribute amoungst all catogorys Where Gamers Give Back
Michayel Lyon The Corporation Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.01.17 02:18:00 - [229] Hey Tripoli, just a small question. Wouldn't it be more efficient to take the basic perception, charisma and willpower learning skills to level 4 (or even level 5, if you intend to train them at all), before you start training any of the advanced perception, charisma or willpower learning skills? The reason should be that, since all the basic skills have mem as primary and int as secondary, the time to train the basic perc, cha and will learning skills is fixed once you're done with mem and int learning skills. However, the attributes they affect will have an impact on the advanced learning skills. Or maybe there is something wrong in my reasoning? I only have Logic trained to level 4, after all... --- Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied? Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:43:00 - [230] Well, it's really not much an issue, seeing as level 4 is required to even start the advanced skills. Following the order I have laid out (which varies slightly character to character) is the optimal route. You should train the relevant advanced skills to level 3 before training the basic skills to level 5 (with the exception of Instant Recall 4). Because of the Rank 3 multiplier on the advanced skills, it's more beneficial to train their lower levels before continuing to the last level of the basic skills. --- 320 of 341 skills trained.
Enaria Ferenic	Posted - 2007.01.19 03:56:00 - [231] Just a quick question: if i get all my learning skills (standard and advanced) up to lvl 4, then how much SP can i expect to increase by each month, assuming that i'm constantly training? This Char is an Alt.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.19 05:37:00 - [232] That can theoretically add over 500,000 SP/month above what you'd otherwise have. --- 321 of 341 skills trained.
Enaria Ferenic	Posted - 2007.01.19 06:36:00 - [233] Thanks for the reply.....looking roughly at the math i thought it was about 500,000. This Char is an Alt.
Arthe Xavier	Posted - 2007.01.23 18:33:00 - [234] Thank you - this thread is very helpful for us newbies. Sometimes one can get flabbergasted at the amount of skill-choices EVE has to offer, you know. :)
Dude Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.24 03:18:00 - [235] I've finally finished all my learning skills. My stats are as follows int 16.5 cha 17.6 per 26.4 mem 15.4 wil 22.0 I learn gunnery skills well but I was wondering where I can look to find what would be best to learn next. I wanna outfit my ships primarily for mission running but I want to be ready for more when the time arives. any advice on where to get started would be greatly appreciated. perhaps another good walkthrough.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.24 03:45:00 - [236] 10 different people will tell you 10 different things. Where to go once you've finished your learning skills is up to you. --- 321 of 341 skills trained.
Michayel Lyon The Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.25 17:48:00 - [237] Originally by: Tripoli Well, it's really not much an issue, seeing as level 4 is required to even start the advanced skills. Following the order I have laid out (which varies slightly character to character) is the optimal route. You should train the relevant advanced skills to level 3 before training the basic skills to level 5 (with the exception of Instant Recall 4). Because of the Rank 3 multiplier on the advanced skills, it's more beneficial to train their lower levels before continuing to the last level of the basic skills. You're wrong. It's more beneficial to train the basic perc, will and charisma skill to lvl5 (if you intend to do this at all) before you start with the advanced perc, will and charisma skills, because the basic skills affect the relevant attributes of the advanced skills, but the advanced skills doesn't affect the attributes for the basic skills. Of course, this isn't true for int and mem. If you don't believe me, test it in EVEMon. --- Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied? Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions
AvatarADV	Posted - 2007.01.28 00:49:00 - [238] Having entirely too much free time on my hands, I decided to look at it from a different perspective - that of skill number x skill rank. This gives us a better understanding of the actual importance of a particular attribute - if the attribute is assigned to many skills with huuuuge ranks, then even small improvements in that skill will be valuable compared to skills with fewer ranks. Anyway, adding up ALL the skills (except the learning category, which is pretty minuscule and y'all have talked it to death here), with a value of 1 per primary and .5 per secondary times the number of ranks, the weightings come out: 422 Mem, 480 Int, 680.5 Per, 390 Will, 130 Cha We can see that Perception is the highest-ranked attribute, that Willpower isn't far behind the two mental attributes, and that Charisma has really, really gotten the shaft. But wait! These numbers stink, actually, because they represent a completely unusual skill loading. NOBODY is trained to operate all four races' Titans, right? In practice, a player would likely restrict themselves to a single race of ships and the corresponding weapon (let's leave missiles in there - there's plenty of ships with both missile and turret hardpoints). Taking that into consideration drastically lowers the importance of Per and Will. The recalculated Perception total is only 352.5, and recalculated Willpower is 235.5. Looking at it that way, Perception falls behind the two mental attributes, and Willpower is way behind. Of course, Int (and to a degree Mem) is getting a huge bonus from all of the many-ranked research skills, not all or even most of which a research-oriented character is going to train. And, of course, an awful lot of points from there are oriented to capital-specific equipment, so if your ultimate goal doesn't include your own Titan, you could strip all those out... and so on, and so on.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.28 03:50:00 - [239] Originally by: Michayel Lyon You're wrong. You're....you're....you're **ing right. **. /me goes and fixes the skill training order on page 1. --- 321 of 341 skills trained.
Raphael Ordo The Movement	Posted - 2007.02.01 09:48:00 - [240] Originally by: Tripoli To date, charisma is generally considered one of the less useful attributes in EVE. Currently there are relatively few skills that have Charisma as a primary attribute. It is likely that this attribute will become more useful as the game progresses and content is added, but at this point it is easily the least useful. Right now, it is good for people who wish to make a living doing trading and running agent missions, but its usefulness doesnÆt extend very far beyond that, especially when compared to attributes like Intelligence and Perception. Charisma is altough well used within skills of Leadership and alike. In which leadership plays an significant role in Major/minor Fleet Battles. Or even Squad Ganks or whatever you prefer.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.02.02 04:11:00 - [241] Indeed. While charisma is still the least useful of the attributes overall, its importance is slowly growing. --- 323 of 341 skills trained.
Dinife Dinife Corp	Posted - 2007.02.10 10:26:00 - [242] Originally by: AvatarADV Having entirely too much free time on my hands, I decided to look at it from a different perspective - that of skill number x skill rank. This gives us a better understanding of the actual importance of a particular attribute - if the attribute is assigned to many skills with huuuuge ranks, then even small improvements in that skill will be valuable compared to skills with fewer ranks. Anyway, adding up ALL the skills (except the learning category, which is pretty minuscule and y'all have talked it to death here), with a value of 1 per primary and .5 per secondary times the number of ranks, the weightings come out: 422 Mem, 480 Int, 680.5 Per, 390 Will, 130 Cha We can see that Perception is the highest-ranked attribute, that Willpower isn't far behind the two mental attributes, and that Charisma has really, really gotten the shaft. But wait! These numbers stink, actually, because they represent a completely unusual skill loading. NOBODY is trained to operate all four races' Titans, right? In practice, a player would likely restrict themselves to a single race of ships and the corresponding weapon (let's leave missiles in there - there's plenty of ships with both missile and turret hardpoints). Taking that into consideration drastically lowers the importance of Per and Will. The recalculated Perception total is only 352.5, and recalculated Willpower is 235.5. Looking at it that way, Perception falls behind the two mental attributes, and Willpower is way behind. Of course, Int (and to a degree Mem) is getting a huge bonus from all of the many-ranked research skills, not all or even most of which a research-oriented character is going to train. And, of course, an awful lot of points from there are oriented to capital-specific equipment, so if your ultimate goal doesn't include your own Titan, you could strip all those out... and so on, and so on. What total skill number are you getting this from, the total on sell is 344. And that is all of them. Which is 101 primary for perception, and 39 sec.. And 123 primary if int. and 53 sec.. You must be using a list that has skills on it that are not normal to all players. Like you have 130 for charism and i have only 40 primary and 13 secondary. And I have the learning skills included.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.02.10 18:24:00 - [243] Originally by: Dinife Originally by: AvatarADV Having entirely too much free time on my hands, I decided to look at it from a different perspective - that of skill number x skill rank. This gives us a better understanding of the actual importance of a particular attribute - if the attribute is assigned to many skills with huuuuge ranks, then even small improvements in that skill will be valuable compared to skills with fewer ranks. What total skill number are you getting this from, the total on sell is 344. And that is all of them. Which is 101 primary for perception, and 39 sec.. And 123 primary if int. and 53 sec.. You must be using a list that has skills on it that are not normal to all players. Like you have 130 for charism and i have only 40 primary and 13 secondary. And I have the learning skills included. I think you've misunderstood AvatarADV's post. He's taking a different approach than most people have on this subject because he's adding the total number of Ranks and weighting them, rather than the total number of skills. Using Ranks should yield a much more accurate result for weighing the importance of attributes. --- 323 of 341 skills trained.
Dinife Dinife Corp	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:28:00 - [244] I did the weighting in 3 ways. First all skills, second no learning, and third on learning and only ship of one race. int 554, 546.5, 546.5 char 141, 136.5, 136.5 per 666, 661.5, 448.5 will 399.5, 395, 288.5 mem 447.5, 437, 437 These are the numbers i come up with.
n0thing A Black Knight Corp	Posted - 2007.02.28 22:20:00 - [245] Question, if I managed to get my attributes balanced at start. Means at end of the learnings if we say all of them adv to lvl 5 + +3 implants i end up with about 22 on all of them(charisma excluded)(since Learning lvl 5 can get you another point on certain attribute sometimes as i read). Is it better then end up with for example one attribute having max of 24 and lowest would be only 17 or 16? My first calculation was with 22 memory and only 16 perception wich is certainly not enough. Did i do the good thing and went for balanced attribute layout? tnx,
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.03.01 02:38:00 - [246] Personally, I think balanced attributes are the best way to go. Even if Intelligence and Perception are the most useful right now, CCP has a way of changing things over time. --- 325 of 341 skills trained.
n0thing A Black Knight Corp	Posted - 2007.03.01 12:02:00 - [247] Edited by: n0thing on 01/03/2007 12:01:17 Well, I have looked some more and seems that high memory doesnt benefits combat character much as theres only one skill tree that uses it as primary attribute - Learnings. Also, seems like 2 extra perception in tradeoff for memory will benefit me great time on high rank skills that memory wont train(like battleship lvl 4-5 and such), in those skills after i calculated it gave about 3-4 day difference over each lvl 5. First attribute version was: Int 9, Perc 6 Char 6, Will 7, Mem 11 wich at the end(assuming adv 5 and +3 implant set for 4 attributes): Int 22, Perc 19, Will 20, Mem 24. Now second calculation with: Int 8, Perc 8, Char 8, Will 8, Mem 7(assuming same): Int 21, Perc 21, Will 21, Mem 20. Now if to assume that sometimes Learning V that adds up later might round up some attributes by +1 then some of attributes might go to 22. Means 4 memory trade off for 2 perc and 1 will is worth it for me as combat character(even tho 1 memory point goes to charisma), since like i said, combat skills got more high rank skills that will actually make few days difference over every lvl 5 trained. tnx,
Mission Runner57	Posted - 2007.03.03 14:49:00 - [248] Hey Tripoli, Considering Akita T's reply with yours could you please consider posting an optimum route including l3 implants for Calderi Achura Inventor since. It would be a great help ( Base + Basic_Skill_Lv + Adv_Skill_Lv + Implant_Bonus ) * ( 1+ ( Learning_Lv * 0.02 ) ) I have already calc-ed the above function which gives me wrong route "Sigs are for noobs"
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.03.03 19:30:00 - [249] For any character who can afford +1, +2, or +3 implants, they should train cybernetics level 1 immediately (before doing ANY learning skills) and plug the implants in. --- 325 of 341 skills trained.
Nekali Zho	Posted - 2007.03.07 16:04:00 - [250] Originally by: Mission Runner57 Hey Tripoli, Considering Akita T's reply with yours could you please consider posting an optimum route including l3 implants for Calderi Achura Inventor since. It would be a great help ( Base + Basic_Skill_Lv + Adv_Skill_Lv + Implant_Bonus ) * ( 1+ ( Learning_Lv * 0.02 ) ) I have already calc-ed the above function which gives me wrong route I think its something like: Cybernetics 1 (plug +3's) Logic 1 Learning 2 Logic 2 Logic 3 Learning 3 Instant recall 4 (Could be before logic 3 and learning 3, not sure) Eidetic memory 1 Eidetic memory 2 Eidetic memory 3 It's something like that, gonna have to make a new char to test really. But the order doesnt change much after you have the core set up.
Distanct	Posted - 2007.03.09 09:17:00 - [251] Edited by: Distanct on 09/03/2007 09:19:02 Edited by: Distanct on 09/03/2007 09:17:42 hmmm, I'm no expert on the game, but I have a recommendation. The skill tree at the beginning that focuses on the learning skills and the Science/Cybernetics skills should be what you focus on, but lets be frank, thats boring as hell during game time. I focused on those at first, but when it got to the point when I could sleep/eat/M@$turb@yte with a Learning skill going, I played with other random skills going on. Lvl1 of the Gunnery/Mining/Engineering/whateverthe****else. Nothing past level 1 unless it was absolutely necessary. You get the most gratification for your buck, and once the learning skills are done, you might have more fun training the skills you need.
Must Goforaslash	Posted - 2007.03.12 15:53:00 - [252] Distanct is right. Tripoli's post is technically correct but doesn't take into account the needs of the new player. The last thing a new player wants to do is put the character on ice while the learning skills go up - they want to get out and fly! And the chances are a noob like me who doesn't want to join a corp straight away hasn't got the ISK to buy all the learning skills and implants etc. The first requirement of a new player must be to get their first decent frigate into a good state with upgrades. Key skills to allow your character to install important ship equipment (such as shield boosters, armour repairers etc) must be learned. This must be done while trying to get some low level learning skills but the order for gaining low level learning skills may not be as Tripoli suggests. Rather you should boost those attributes which get you the skill you need for the next upgrade you need. The early learning skills can be tailored to the requirements of your frigate's equipment. Once your first decent frigate is as good as you want to get it you can draw a line. Then you can turn your attention in earnest to training in the learning skills as Tripoli suggests. This way you can appreciate the importance of the learning skills while maximising early enjoyment of the game, which is crucial for any new player.
PoesPoes	Posted - 2007.03.17 23:12:00 - [253] great thread this is I've started playing this game since recently and enjoying it quite so far. This topic gave me all the information which I was looking for to figure out how the learning skill progress worked. Keep up the good work!
Rex Sunhammer	Posted - 2007.03.21 18:57:00 - [254] How does higher Rank impact skills, sure it "takes longer" to learn but is that it? The guide seems to only talk about Rank 1 skills, how much would I gain if the basic learning skills were all Rank 2 Level 4s before I branched out into higher ranks for other skills? I keep hearing that you can go up to Rank 16, but didn't see it mentioned in the guide. If that's true, for one skill (Say Learning) its really rank 16 * 5 levels = 80 levels per Skill? My offtopic question becomes, there's no way I can compete with someone who's Rank 16 of <skill> is there?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.03.23 00:31:00 - [255] Each skill is assigned a rank. That rank never changes. It's simply a multiplier that determines how "hard" the skill is by simply making it take longer to train. The level of the skill is the only thing that measures how "good" you are at a skill, and if can never train any skill beyond level 5. --- 325 of 341 skills trained.
Pax Deora	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:03:00 - [256] I started a pvp char on a second account and although i do follow the optimal learning plan (with +3 implants) I came up with a different method to determine my optimal starting attributes. Which I think worked out well, although itÆs a bit time consuming, and you need to know what you want to go for. My goal is to fly an Amarr fleet command ship specializing in armored warfare links with all relevant skills at the appropriate levels. I used quickfit to design a setup that used named/t2 mods and set any needed skills at the level at which i got the desired effect (such as all the support skills such as eng/elec, cap skills, tank skills, weap skills, etc all at level 4-5). note: this doesn't include learning skills since you could have your starting attributes set up any way you like, and getting all basic to 5 and all advanced learning to 4 will happen anyways, for me at least. I listed each skill out on a piece of paper, with the primary and secondary attributes next to it, then used the skill calculator on eve[geek] to calculate the total amount of skill points needed to get to that level (i.e. Cruiser lvl5 will take 1,280,000 skill points because its a rank 5 skill, engineering will take 256,000 to get to level 5 because its a rank 1 skill). Since all skills have primary attributes and secondary attributes, and secondary attributes contribute half as much as primary, i used the ratio of (2/3) for primary attributes, and (1/3) for secondary. For example, (race) Frigate has primary of Perception, and secondary of willpower, so per contributes twice as much as wil [2 * (1/3) = (2/3)]. I'm sure you could use other ratios but this one makes it into a decimal that will be useful later on. So here is the more time consuming part. Add up all the skill point totals (basically your the amount of skill points you'll have when you reach your goal). That total is what you will use to find the % of your total skills use any given attribute. For primary attributes, add up all the skill points from skills that take that primary attribute, multiply it by (2/3), then divide it by the total amount of skill points you have planned. You will get the % that attribute contributes to your skill point total. Repeat for all attributes. For secondary attributes, the calculation is the same, except you use (1/3) instead of (2/3) since secondary attributes only contribute half as much as primary ones. At this point you will have two lists of 5 numbers each, with each number corresponding to an attribute. Then simply add the numbers of the corresponding attributes, as in the number from primary Int plus the number from secondary Int. (Note if you add up all attributes they should equal 1) Now each character has a starting total of 39 attribute points to allocate, after taking into account the base attributes, the 5 you chose, and the 4 from the ancestry. Your optimal starting amount of any given attribute is 39 * (the sum of the attributes primary and secondary numbers). For example if you had a primary int ratio of .0833, and a secondary int ratio of .0417, the sum is .1250, therefore your starting int should be (39 * .1250) which equals 4.8750, after rounding, you would go for a starting int of 5. Multiply 39 by all the final attribute ratios and you got your optimal starting attributes.
Pax Deora	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:05:00 - [257] An Example (albeit a small one, 4 skills ftw) P û Perception, W û Willpower, C û Charisma, I û Intelligence, M - Memory Desired Skill Set: Pri û Sec û Skill points û Skill P - W - 1,280,000 - (race) Cruiser ( rank 5) to level 5 C - W - 256,000 - Leadership ( rank 1) to level 5 M - I - 256,000 - Engineering ( rank 1) to level 5 I - M - 45,255 - Science ( rank 1) to level 4 Total Skill points: 1,837,255 Priamry Ratios { [(2/3) * (total spÆs with attrib as primary )] / total spÆs } P : .4645 = (2/3 * 1280000) / 1837255 C : .0929 = (2/3 * 256000) / 1837255 M : .0929 = (2/3 * 256000) / 1837255 I : .0164 = (2/3 * 45255) / 1837255 W : 0 = (2/3 * 0) / 1837255 Secondary Ratios { [(1/3) * (total spÆs with attrib as secondary )] / total spÆs } P : 0 = (1/3 * 0) / 1837255 C : 0 = (1/3 * 0) / 1837255 M : .0082 = (1/3 * 45255) / 1837255 I : .0464 = (1/3 * 256000) / 1837255 W : .2787 = (1/3 * [1280000+256000]) / 1837255 Final Ratios ( primary + secondary) P : .4645 = .4645 + 0 C : .0929 = .0929 + 0 M : .1011 = .0929 + .0082 I : .0628 = .0164 + .0464 W : .2787 = 0 + .2787 Theoretical optimal [39 * (final ratio of attrib)] P: 18.1155 = 39 * .4645 C: 3.6231 = 39 * .0929 M: 3.9429 = 39 * .1011 I: 2.4492 = 39 * .0926 W: 10.8693 = 39 * .2787 So after rounding (up if greater than .5, down if lower than .5) Actual Optimal Starting attributes Perception is 18 Charisma is 4 Memory is 4 Intelligence is 3 Willpower is 11 Of course you could never get JUST those skills since youÆd need to factor in the perquisites (like spaceship command and (race) frigate to the required levels), but this is just a simple example to show how I did the math. Only thing left to do is find a race/ancestry combination you can get the desired starting attributes with. The example did I donÆt think is actually possible because you cant start with perception of 18, but you get the idea of how it would work. My command ship template was in upwards of +20mil skill points in its entirety so I got a more reasonable spread of attributes (notice the rank 5 cruiser skill put more weight on the starting attributes then the lower rank other skills) Well that was my method of starting attribute determination; feel free to point out any possible errors I may have overlooked. Also, implants and the learning skills, as long as you have all the skills at the same level and get all the same +x implants, they can be factored out so you donÆt have to include them. Except maybe getting one stat a lot higher then the rest where the learning skill would add significantly more to that attribute then the rest of them, but that generally isnÆt a problem.
Drglord	Posted - 2007.04.17 17:01:00 - [258] Great that means that about 40 hours i spent on my character will go down the drain. I made a fighter pilot with skills something like Int 4, Memory 4, Perception 17 (with spatial i think at level 4) Cha 6, Willpower 8 That means i should throw him down the drain while it is early and make a new character with balanced sets because i will never get high int which seems to be needed for many stuff like electronics as i have seen or keep him?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.04.18 00:55:00 - [259] If you started with Int 4 and are going to be doing a lot of things that use Int and your character is brand new, yes it's well worth starting over. --- 327 of 342 skills trained.
Verotia	Posted - 2007.04.18 11:36:00 - [260] Ok I am a newbie here. So feel free to say I am wrong. Just how much time does it take to max out all the learning skills? For a new player, that is a lot of time in a frigate and not really feeling like you are getting anywhere.... end maybe even burn out before you ever really get into the game. What I am doing is learning learn to level 4 ( accomplished ) and the other ones to level 2 ( also accomplished ). Then to get myself further into the game I am learning other fast things to open the game out.. and then I will go back to getting the learning tree maxed out. So I may not have had my first month boosted properly for the end game..... but I only spent one month ( well not at the end of first week yet, but you know what I mean ) making the game more interesting for me, and then I can kick back in my nifty cruiser or battle cruiser for however long it takes to max out the learning skills. This guide seems to benefit people who are rolling alts, than it does to new players. IMO just too boring to exclusivly learn learning skills. Is it possible to get a guide tailored for the different types of players, that for the start of the career will get them to a more interesting part of the game before they play the waiting game with this tech tree? grr no spellcheck.. I apologise in advance for my horrible spelling typing and grammar :D I am smart.. just not in this way lol.
RedooM Meed Caldari Zanpaku-to	Posted - 2007.04.21 10:58:00 - [261] Edited by: RedooM Meed on 21/04/2007 10:54:42 Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 28/01/2007 03:56:16 - Instant Recall 1 - Analytical Mind 1 - Learning 1 - Instant Recall 2 - Analytical Mind 2 - Learning 2 - Instant Recall 3 - Analytical Mind 3 - Learning 3 - Instant Recall 4 - Eidetic Memory 1 - Eidetic Memory 2 - Eidetic Memory 3 - Analytical Mind 4 - Logic 1 - Logic 2 - Logic 3 - Learning 4 - Eidetic Memory 4 - Logic 4 I dont question this list but there is a mistake in it. You cant skill up eiditic memory before finishing instant recall lvl 5... And I would skill up learning lvl 4 and analytical mind lvl 4 before tacking instant recall lvl 5. This root of learning would be more acurate. - Instant Recall 1 - Analytical Mind 1 - Learning 1 - Instant Recall 2 - Analytical Mind 2 - Learning 2 - Instant Recall 3 - Analytical Mind 3 - Learning 3 - Instant Recall 4 - Analytical Mind 4 - Learning 4 - Instant Recall 5 - Eidetic Memory 1 - Eidetic Memory 2 - Eidetic Memory 3 - Analytical Mind 5 - Logic 1 - Logic 2 - Logic 3 - Eidetic Memory 4 - Logic 4 Wheter or not you want to skill up advanced learnings to lvl 5 is up to you but from gain to time investment will be done in terms of years to payoff time saved.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.04.21 19:42:00 - [262] When Revelations came out, they reduced the skill requirements for the advanced learning skills down to level 4 of the basic counterpart. --- 328 of 342 skills trained.
RedooM Meed Caldari Zanpaku-to	Posted - 2007.04.22 19:46:00 - [263] I never thaught CCP would unerf learning skills my jaws falls to the ground. Your calculations are exact. Hats off and very sorry. You are the master of skilling and bow. Was foolish to think other wise.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.04.25 02:19:00 - [264] LOL, no you're not foolish. In fact, I've been wrong my fair share of times, even about the skill training order. --- 328 of 342 skills trained.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.04.27 04:30:00 - [265] I'm wondering if you'd consider including a link to this somewhere in one of your stickies. Even a direct link or a paraphrasing of things inside, adjusted as you see fit Your threads get a lot more exposure, and the data in that other thread should be helpful for genuine new players (and older players creating alts alike), so if you think it's worth it... please add it _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Antaeras	Posted - 2007.05.03 05:12:00 - [266] Originally by: Skie Inurian In the earlier version of this thread I posted a list of the "best" character races to play based on the relative importance of attributes. Here is the revised list, with the same attribute weightings of 1.3 for mem, 1.2 for int, 1.1 per, 1.0 for will and 0.8 for charisma. Character races at the top give a "better" character for all-over skills training. I managed to find the thread you refer to (here), but the actual guide (.rtf file) is gone. After more hunting I found it's included in the Eve Master Datasheet :)
Antaeras	Posted - 2007.05.03 08:23:00 - [267] Edited by: Antaeras on 03/05/2007 08:20:00 Originally by: Eralis What people don't understand is that the breakeven point is NOT when the investment HAS paid off. You invest two months and 3 million skill points training the 5 advanced learning skills to level 5. After 3.5 years, when you get to the breakeven point, how many more non-learning skill points do you have? NONE! Zero. Zip. After 3.5 years, you are dead-even with another character who didn't go for level 5 in the advanced learning skills. You have gained NOTHING. The breakeven point (3.5 years) is only where your investment STARTS to pay off. At 3.5 years + 1 day, you'll have gained an extra 1,440 skill points. That's it. Is having 1,440 extra skill points 3.5 years and a day from now worth NOT having 3 MILLION skill points 2 months from now? I don't think so. But a character who DOES NOT train those skills up will effectively have THREE MILLION more skill points than you do in 2 months. It will be SEVEN YEARS before you have a three million skill point advantage over them. In a game like Eve, that may not even exist in seven years, seven years is close enough to never to be considered as never. Even if Eve lasts forever, if you consider that the character with 3 million more useful skill points right now is also doing better missions, making more isk, etc, you'll probably NEVER catch up - they will be able to use the advantage they get now to overcome and advantage you get from extra skill points 7 years from now. Brilliant point. Funny how most people don't realise this.
Antaeras	Posted - 2007.05.04 12:18:00 - [268] Originally by: Michayel Lyon It's more beneficial to train the basic perc, will and charisma skill to lvl5 (if you intend to do this at all) before you start with the advanced perc, will and charisma skills, because the basic skills affect the relevant attributes of the advanced skills, but the advanced skills doesn't affect the attributes for the basic skills. Of course, this isn't true for int and mem. If you don't believe me, test it in EVEMon. Are you sure EVEMon is right? Has anyone checked this?
Acoco Osiris Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.05.11 11:10:00 - [269] I do believe that +1 implants require Cybernetics 1, +2s Cyber 2, +3s Cyber 3, etc. However, note: Newbies, after Revelations, will get three +1 implants from the ten-mission chain, and storyline missions will net you more. So it is worthwhile to train cybernetics 1. I mean... I was training to Science IV for tractors, got cyber 1 before I started for about an hour of training, and that knocked a couple hours off science IV, so it was instantly worth it. IMO, you should get basic learning skills to two (because they don't take much time and still speed things up a lot), and then train in some skills for your profession of choice. For combat characters, I would get salvaging (this makes PILES of money quickly), science IV (for tractors, which speed up looting/salvaging enormously), a few social skills, and basic skills to handle a cruiser. This includes power grid upgrades II, depending on race either hull or shield upgrades IV for hardeners, engineering to III, about 500k SP in some form of combat such as missiles or gunnery, and possibly some I've forgotten. Fortunately, combat specialized characters should start with that 500k in combat, and a good deal of those other skills. Also get a destroyer and the destroyer skill-they make excellent salvage boats. After you get those basic profession skills (for combat salvaging and cruiser operation), I would then suggest plowing yourself into learning skills full-time. PS: Advanced skills at X rank do not take much longer than their basic counterparts. As such, it is far quicker to train Eiditic Memory to I (or for that matter all the way to III) than to train Instant Recall to IV. That also means that if/when you can afford them, if you already have a basic learning skill at IV when you start, you should train those advanceds to II while doing those profession skills. However, remember this: This is a game, and everybody plays their own way. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
GodGiven Right Caldari	Posted - 2007.05.15 01:07:00 - [270] This is an excellent topic, I have learned alot in this thread. Being a new player, this game has a huge learning curve, and I have read a lot so far about this game. It's the people in this thread and more that make this game a lot more interesting and enjoyable to play. Thanks!! P.S.(Is it my imagination(perception) the Eve time is longer(for training) than real time?)
foehammer mk2 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.05.20 11:33:00 - [271] Interesting reading, thanks to all who put the time/effort into this :)
Watain	Posted - 2007.05.20 20:18:00 - [272] This is an excellent topic, I have learned alot in this thread. Being a new player, this game has a huge learning curve, and I have read a lot so far about this game. It's the people in this thread and more that make this game a lot more interesting and enjoyable to play. Thanks!! P.S.(Is it my imagination(perception) the Eve time is longer(for training) than real time?)
Estoika Chonda Gallente Kharak Confederation	Posted - 2007.06.12 10:31:00 - [273] Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 05/06/2006 23:29:13 Here are the various skill groups and which attributes are typically primary and secondary for them: Corporation Management: Memory / Charisma Drones: Memory / Perception Electronics: Intelligence / Memory Engineering: Intelligence / Memory Gunnery: Perception / Willpower Industry: Memory / Intelligence Leadership: Charisma / Willpower Learning: Memory / Intelligence Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower Navigation: Intelligence / Perception Science: Intelligence / Memory Social: Charisma / Intelligence Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower Trade: Charisma / Memory Personally, I think a balance of attribute points in Intelligence, Memory, Perception, and Willpower will serve you best in the long run. Even if you intend to be an ace fighter which requires high Perception and Willpower, a lot of the secondary skills that are required to make a really good fighter (such as Engineering and Electronics) require good Intelligence and Memory. Intelligence and Perception are, in my opinion, the most important attributes in the game. I hope that you will find this information helpful. I always welcome questions and comments. IÆll try to keep this information up to date for yÆall. Thx ^^ With blood in our voices we ride, we'll fight till we win or we'll fight until we die!!
Raynor Etrin Galactic Waste Management	Posted - 2007.07.03 13:41:00 - [274] Nice, great thread. Getting my new char's learning skills going as we speak
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.07.06 07:12:00 - [275] Quote: I do believe that +1 implants require Cybernetics 1, +2s Cyber 2, +3s Cyber 3, etc. Belief however, does not change the game. Cybernetics 1 gives you access to up to +3 implants (assuming non-faction, faction implants are different). +4 implants require Cybernetics 4. Now, maybe it -should- be the way you describe. But it isn't.
Skie Inurian Gallente Nothing but Pebbles out here	Posted - 2007.08.10 09:26:00 - [276] Edited by: Skie Inurian on 10/08/2007 09:27:39 Originally by: Antaeras Originally by: Skie Inurian In the earlier version of this thread I posted a list of the "best" character races to play based on the relative importance of attributes. Here is the revised list, with the same attribute weightings of 1.3 for mem, 1.2 for int, 1.1 per, 1.0 for will and 0.8 for charisma. Character races at the top give a "better" character for all-over skills training. I managed to find the thread you refer to (here), but the actual guide (.rtf file) is gone. After more hunting I found it's included in the Eve Master Datasheet :) And here I am (a few months!) later noticing a reply! The original post I wrote was on the last page of this old thread Here and my earlier coments in this thread are about half- way down page 4 (post 93). Regardless, the data used was just the raw stats of each bloodline when taken from the character creation screens using the "custom" profession. To chose the best bloodline for your character, you decide what stats are most important and assign a weighting for them. The conventional wisdom at the time I did my original post meant that int and mem were "more important" than will, or char. Someone trying to be a awesome gang leader may well put higher weightings on Char than most of us! I have long ago trained all learning skills to the max. I didnt however focus all that heavily on them as I was doing more interesting skills amongst it. Training low level in the basic learning skills is valuable to everyone with more or less immediate payoffs. Taking them to level 4 opens up the advanced skills and a further cost-effective boost there, training advanced to, say, level 3. This would be good for medium term players. Only those of us here for the long haul should bother with level 5 advanced! Besides, I like having evemon tell me that I'm 100% trained in at least one area
Druv	Posted - 2007.08.17 00:34:00 - [277] Thanks for this awesome guide Tripoli. It has helped me alot :) I'm pretty sure that there is a faster way than what you describe in this quote though: Originally by: Tripoli - Determining the best order in which to train Clarity, Focus, and Presence is a little tricky. For each skill, take your current attributes and plug them into this simple formula: Primary + ( Secondary / 2 ) Whichever skill gives the highest result, train it to level 1 first. Repeat this until all three skills are at level 1, then repeat this same process for levels 2-4. Correct me if I'm wrong but say that your perception is the highest attribute and charisma the lowest (which seems to be the most common) then wouldn't the fastest way of training these skills be: -Clarity 1 -Focus 1 -Clarity 2 -Presence 1 -Focus 2 -Clarity 3 -Presence 2 -Focus 3 -Clarity 4 -Presence 3 -Focus 4 -Presence 4 If you see what I mean? Basicly since clarity has perception/willpower as learningattributes you could train the next level of it right away before taking Presence up to the same level without losing any time. And since Presence has perception as secondary attribute it would go faster to train it this way. I could be wrong though but if I'm not I hope it can be of help to someone :)
Detron Caldari Angelic Industries Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:44:00 - [278] Since skills and their training time is based on your attributes (so called the modifier of an attribute), I would advice newbies to make missions to aqcuire augumentations (implants). Either by buying them with money earned by missions, or by doing storyline missions where the reward is an implant. By doing missions, you earn also Loyalty Points, which opens up the loyalty points store (the icon with LP store looks like an officer who has his hand on his chest). From the LP store you can buy augumentations to raise your attributes. The higher LP you have the better items you can finally buy.
Theodore Grey	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:23:00 - [279] Amazing thread. I have to find out what I need to do to get better missions to do while my character is in college. I combined this post with the excellent class/race combo guide here. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=472543
Gingger	Posted - 2007.10.17 12:38:00 - [280] Intersting and beneficial reading this thread. Its great to know what the optimum learning curve is for players with regards to skill training but generally its not pratical. Ive run a quick BC + t2 weaps training scheme in eve-mon and ill be damned if im gonna get up at 03:48 on thursday morning to train the next skill!!! Would like a skill training manager or queueing system, but i guess thats never going to happen. The speed of your char development is fully dependent on the timescales you can fit your training around.
Super Hero	Posted - 2007.10.31 04:40:00 - [281] Thanks man, you're a lifesaver. This game rocks and so do the people. Glad I signed up.
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2007.11.16 07:04:00 - [282] Something to keep in mind before you go investing a bunch of time into learning skills: it presumes that you are constantly managing your skill-ups so that you are never down. Real life intervenes; the other day I forgot to log on before work and blew through over twelve hours of downtime. If you put a lot of skill time into boosting your learning skills, any downtime makes your time to recover your learning skill investment even longer. If your life is hectic enough so that downtime will be a regular occurrence (it seems to keep happening to me on a regular basis, but then I have two accounts so twice as much chance of screwing up), you may want to focus on your regular skills instead. What's more fun anyway? "Learning" (ugh, back to school) or pew-pew lasers? ____________________________________ War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.
Shaunypoo	Posted - 2007.11.21 11:56:00 - [283] I hope this hasnt been answered to many times before. i've searched for it but there is so much information on this forum its crazy. I've read alot but cant find the answer. I've downloaded EVEmon as suggested, and still learning it which is fine, but say for instance, a skill you are learning finishes halfway trough the day and I'm unable to log on and start a new skill in eve, can you set Evemon start it for me automatically??
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:43:00 - [284] Nope. You always have to log into EVE to change skills. The Devs want to keep it that way, too. If you know your skill is going to finish before you're home, switch to a longer skill before you leave, then start the other one again when you're back. --- 343 of 351 skills trained.
D3ka	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:01:00 - [285] nice
Derek Chambers	Posted - 2007.12.16 06:50:00 - [286] so I've been reading that Memory is pretty important for learning skills...my char right now has this skillspread.... Caldari Archura Monk 10 points - Intelligence 13 points - Perception 3 points - Charisma 6 points - Memory 13 points - Willpower He's going to be combat mostly....do you guys think I need more points in Memory? I would like to reduce my training times as much as I can....what do you think? Thanks in advance =)
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.12.16 15:52:00 - [287] Those attributes look pretty good to me. I'd stick with that. Memory is not a terribly important attribute. I'd weight Intelligence and Perception higher for sure, and maybe even Willpower. Train up your learning skills and get some implants and you'll be training fast in no time. --- 348 of 359 skills trained.
Derek Chambers	Posted - 2007.12.16 16:12:00 - [288] Originally by: Tripoli Those attributes look pretty good to me. I'd stick with that. Memory is not a terribly important attribute. I'd weight Intelligence and Perception higher for sure, and maybe even Willpower. Train up your learning skills and get some implants and you'll be training fast in no time. cool! thanks a lot =)
Bellator Militaris	Posted - 2008.01.13 08:16:00 - [289] As stated by the founders of EVE: Knowledge is Power.
Vilith Firestar	Posted - 2008.01.28 22:14:00 - [290] Edited by: Vilith Firestar on 28/01/2008 22:17:47 Edited by: Vilith Firestar on 28/01/2008 22:15:33 Ok my first character started with these stats and there definantly not good. Wondering just how bad are they compared to an alt I'm thinking of starting. Cha:6 Int:11 Per:5 Mem:6 Wil:11 With learning skills and +3 implants: Cha:12 Int:22 Per:18 Mem:18 Wil:23 Currently has 2.3m sp Now the alt chara has a base of: Cha:8 Int:8 Per:10 Mem:6 Wil:7 With starting learning skills: Cha:8 Int:8 Per:12 Mem:6 Wil:11 Thanks!
Acceleratum	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:21:00 - [291] you first one was better, anyway if you want the best allroudner you should focus on int, mem, percep all high, followed closely by willpower and charisma the lowest possible.
Danorium	Posted - 2008.02.28 14:03:00 - [292] Edited by: Danorium on 28/02/2008 14:04:04 Corporation Management: Memory / Charisma Drones: Memory / Perception Electronics: Intelligence / Memory Engineering: Intelligence / Memory Gunnery: Perception / Willpower Industry: Memory / Intelligence Leadership: Charisma / Willpower Learning: Memory / Intelligence Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower Navigation: Intelligence / Perception Science: Intelligence / Memory Social: Charisma / Intelligence Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower Trade: Charisma / Memory (Copied from the original post) Maybe something to add. :) ----------------Primary---Secondary---Total Charisma--------3----------1-----------4 Intelligence-----5----------3-----------8 Willpower--------0----------4-----------4 Memory----------4----------4-----------8 Perception-------3----------1-----------4 This shows how many times the attributes are used as primary and/or secondary. this could of course be reworked and expanded by adding all skills since this are only averages.
Barantz	Posted - 2008.03.08 16:00:00 - [293] read through the thread and not sure if I've missed the answer to a couple of questions, so apologies if that info is here. 1) What is the weighting between primary and secondary attribute towards learning a skill. I presume it isn't 50/50 ? 2) Are the benefits of increasing skills in relation to learning time linear all the way to max ?
Willzcoolnow Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.18 06:20:00 - [294] this is a great thread
Danorium Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.18 08:22:00 - [295] Originally by: Barantz read through the thread and not sure if I've missed the answer to a couple of questions, so apologies if that info is here. 1) What is the weighting between primary and secondary attribute towards learning a skill. I presume it isn't 50/50 ? 2) Are the benefits of increasing skills in relation to learning time linear all the way to max ? it is 66% over 33% so the primary skill gives twice the points and yes Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
ramzahn State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.28 21:01:00 - [296] Hi All. One thing that disturbs me about this whole "learning skills first" business. Although it seems perfectly logic and economic to do it exactly this fashion, there is the fact that you have to generate money (isk) in this game to actually be able to. I think this might be applicable if you get a generous credit of say 50.000 or more, or, if you have a second isk generating account. Otherwise there are so many immediate necessary skill to be taken in order to pay for, as an example, Focus. p.s. Possibly someone else already had the same objections. I didn't take the time to read up the entire thread.
Arliss Loveless	Posted - 2008.04.10 12:57:00 - [297] I have tried to measure attribute importance based on skill ranks. The reason being, that skill rank relates closely to training time. The table is based on API page http://api.eve-online.com/eve/SkillTree.xml.aspx. The python script can be made available as well, but i have no idea, where to put it. The first column contains sums of ranks of all skills in appropriate skill group. Other columns contain sums of ranks of skills that list that attribute as primary or secondary. The full rank value is added, when the attribute is listed as primary and half rank value is added, when the attribute is listed as secondary. - Corporation Management.........32.0....16.0c.......0.0i....32.0m........0.0p......0.0w - Drones...................................76.0......0.0c.......0.0i....76.0m......38.0p......0.0w - Electronics..............................71.0......0.0c.....71.0i....35.5m........0.0p......0.0w - Engineering............................61.0......0.0c.....61.0i....30.5m........0.0p......0.0w - Gunnery...............................178.0......0.0c.......0.0i......1.0m.....178.0p...88.0w - Industry.................................95.0......0.0c.....47.5i....95.0m.........0.0p......0.0w - Leadership.............................62.0.....62.0c.......0.0i......0.0m........0.0p.....31.0w - Learning.................................21.0......4.5c.......7.5i....10.5m........4.5p......4.5w - Mechanic..............................137.0......0.0c....137.0i....68.5m........0.0p......0.0w - Missile Launcher Operation.......87.0......0.0c.......0.0i......0.0m......87.0p....43.5w - Navigation..............................38.0......0.0c.....38.0i......0.0m......19.0p.......0.0w - Science.................................246.0......5.0c...230.0i...119.5m.......0.0p.....14.5w - Social.....................................22.0.....22.0c.....11.0i......0.0m.......0.0p.......0.0w - Spaceship Command..............426.0......0.0c.......0.0i......0.0m....377.0p...262.0w - Trade.....................................35.0.....32.5c.......0.0i.....13.0m.......0.0p.......7.0w ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Total..................................1587.0...142.0c....603.0i...481.5m...703.5p...450.5w
Ran Jarraal Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.14 16:01:00 - [298] This is a great thread for a n00b such as myself. I restarted my character after reading this. Thanks for all the work, Tripoli. Ran
Tripoli XenTech Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.04.16 01:30:00 - [299] Edited by: Tripoli on 16/04/2008 01:31:53 My pleasure. --- 354 of 359 skills trained.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.05.09 17:36:00 - [300] Dammit, I dumped quite a few points into perception and willpower. I think I dumped the extra into intelligence. So would so say I royally screwed up?(With the obvious exception of dumping all extra points into charisma)
ZOSO2	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:28:00 - [301] ok im a bit stoned right now but here goes...so say Ima noob thats been playing 2 days, Im looking to go big on a new mmo cus im bored of pe and ao. I really like eve and can see its depth so I decide its the next mmo im gonna sacrifice the 0.01% of a social life i have left for.I know ill be playing in ayear but my ego demmands that i wanna be a badass that can do eveything as fast as possible.So I open a 2nd account thats just gonna sit there and train while I actually have fun on the main account.What is the fastest way to train all skills to their maximum and how long does it take? Is it best to just start with 88887 and prgressively learn each skill that adds to the base attribute before you then start on the *actual skills? thanks and no Ive never played wow
ZOSO2	Posted - 2008.06.09 01:46:00 - [302] as an add on I do realise that this would take more than 1 year...im guessing 3ish? Ive googled this loads but theres no definitive answer I can find out there.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:18:00 - [303] There is no correct answer to your question. It will depend largely on what you want to do and how long you end up playing the game. For most people, getting all the learning skills to level 4 and adding some +3 or +4 implants is a good, solid start. Training all the learning skills to level 5 will not "pay off" for over 3 years. --- 355 of 359 skills trained.
Riphid'Qeth ra'Novax	Posted - 2008.08.01 12:35:00 - [304] Thanks for the info , this will help a lot................
Brahmen Cult Of War II	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:44:00 - [305] Ok, this guide is amazing and all, but I want to start a new alt and I got no problems spending money on him/her, so I want to get +4 implants for the alt. Question is, what is the optimal build, I intend to get all basic learning skills to V, including learning and advanced ones to IV, beside charisma, as I have no use for that (Hi achura char!). So my question is, what would be the optimal way to get all those skills I mentioned and cybernetics IV for +4s (and putting in +3 implants before that). I just didn't see a post about an optimal build from scratch including implants, thanks for answering!
Xviix Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.16 00:00:00 - [306] Why isnt this stickied ?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2008.08.18 02:20:00 - [307] Originally by: Xviix Why isnt this stickied ? It used to be. Now it's part of the resource topic that's stickied at the top of this forum. --- All 359 skills trained.
Vecana Rayne	Posted - 2008.08.26 18:47:00 - [308] Edited by: Vecana Rayne on 26/08/2008 18:56:06 Before I get started... great guide ^^ Warning: Long Post (I do it for the sake of the guide!) Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 28/01/2007 03:56:16 - Determining the best order in which to train Clarity, Focus, and Presence is a little tricky. For each skill, take your current attributes and plug them into this simple formula: Primary + ( Secondary / 2 ) Whichever skill gives the highest result, train it to level 1 first. Repeat this until all three skills are at level 1, then repeat this same process for levels 2-4. This is a good formula only for determining the first of these skills you should train at each level of skill. After that, you should train whatever skill uses the stat you just increased as a secondary stat. For instance, when you increase Clarity, your Perception goes up, which is the secondary attribute for Presence. Presence helps Charisma, which is secondary for Focus. Focus helps Willpower, which is secondary for Clarity. Thus, use your formula to figure out which skill to train first, then train the one it helps. If Clarity is first, the order is Clarity, Presence, Focus. If Presence is first, the order is Presence, Focus, Clarity. If Focus is first, the order is Focus, Clarity, Presence. If you choose to not train one of them at a certain level (say, not training presence at IV because you don't use Charisma that much), then ignore the formula completely and train the one that affects the secondary stat of the other first, followed by that other one. The reason for this is simple. Once you've trained one of these advanced skills, the only one that gets faster is the one using that stat as a secondary. It doesn't matter if the one that did not just get faster has a faster training time, because it will get faster only when its secondary stat goes up. And, just because I have no life and have plenty of time to type all this, here's my list of fastest possible training to 5 for all skills (assuming 88887, with the 7 in charisma, such as the possible Gallente Jin-Mei stat spread that I used): Instant Recall I Analytical Mind I Learning I Instant Recall II Analytical Mind II Learning II Instant Recall III Analytical Mind III Learning III Instant Recall IV Eidetic Memory I Eidetic Memory II Eidetic Memory III Analytical Mind IV Logic I Logic II Logic III Learning IV Eidetic Memory IV Logic IV Instant Recall V Analytical Mind V Learning V Eidetic Memory V Logic V Empathy, Spacial Awareness, & Iron Will I-V (any order, they're based on Mem/Int) Clarity I Presence I Focus I Clarity II Presence II Focus II Clarity III Presence III Focus III Clarity IV Presence IV Focus IV Clarity V Presence V Focus V Final Note: The Clarity-Presence-Focus order starts with which ever skill will train the fastest, then follows the circle of secondary attributes. (Clarity -> Presence -> Focus -> Clarity) This takes approximately two to three months to complete, and will vary based on your stats. This is also just the way to get all Learning skills maxed out as quickly as possible and will certainly create a very long payback time. Implants are not taken into account with this. The true value of implant training depends on where your Science skills tarts at for Cybernetics I. With Science at 2 or less, Cybernetics goes right after Learning II or Analytical Mind III (depending on if you have +3s or +1s respectively). With Science starting at 3 or higher, Cybernetics goes first. Cybernetics IV, due to the wasted time of II & III, goes just before the level IV Advanced Learning skills. Cybernetics V goes just before the level V Normal Learning skills. You obviously need the implants to start with to get the payoff as well, so only those with a lot of wealth to burn (+3, +4, and +5 int and mem implants, and +5 for all the others) can take advantage of them beyond Cybernetics I.
Vecana Rayne	Posted - 2008.08.26 18:55:00 - [309] But wait, there's more! If you start as a Prospector (Instant Recall IV and Analytical Mind II), here's the shiny new spread for level I-IV of the Mem/Int skills! And Learning too! Learning I Eidetic Memory I Learning II Eidetic Memory II Analytical Mind III Learning III Eidetic Memory III Analytical Mind IV Logic I Logic II Logic III Learning IV Eidetic Memory IV Logic IV
Yankunytjatjara	Posted - 2008.10.12 23:49:00 - [310] read it all... Thanks Tripoli! Now, a point and a question. Just did this new character in a burst of evediction thanks also to the power of 2 offer. Yankunytjatjara (and it's not a made up word ) will be a amarr/minmatar fighter pilot, no drones, mixed gunnery/missiles,with the intention of reaching titans and of having some good team command capabilities. Finally, my point. Well, many consider only an all or nothing approach: all the adv. to 5, or none. I don't agree, I think I should train (with my ridiculously high objectives) focus and clarity to 5, but probably not eidetic, as it would serve only for the skill Science, a few electronic skills (note that my other char is an industrialist/scientist and will cover all the exploration needs!) and the biggest need, the engineering stuff. But this gets done pretty soon anyway, after that, memory will be useless, and having spent days to train eidetic up to 5 would be a waste. So the question is: how high should I train int and mem? I've got the guy already in evehq. Isn't there a tool to test various numbers and see how many days are required with various combinations? Thanks!
duckydax	Posted - 2009.01.08 07:28:00 - [311] i dont get it, so which shoul we train first...the attributes that contribute to a skill or the skill which boost attributes....i find it complicated
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.01.09 04:16:00 - [312] You can't train attributes. You train skills that raise attributes. The only time you can directly change attributes is during character creation. After that, any changes are a result of training skills or plugging in implants.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.02.09 14:48:00 - [313] Trip your going to have to change this now... Apocrypha changes stuff....
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.02.10 04:59:00 - [314] Originally by: RaTTuS Trip your going to have to change this now... Apocrypha changes stuff.... Goodie. --- All 360 skills trained.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.02.10 08:07:00 - [315] Edited by: RaTTuS on 10/02/2009 08:40:23 noobs get 100% bonus to Skill training up to 1.6 Mil SP [I think] and can re-assign their Skill points for free a couple of times [not sure on time limit though it seems it may be 6months - so you can gimp ypurself early on] I created a new character and bunged in 24hrs of Skill training yesterday [can get one of the learnings to 4 in 24hrs] Race& blood line does not matter any more
Finfamfoom	Posted - 2009.02.10 12:15:00 - [316] Originally by: RaTTuS Race& blood line does not matter any more sings "We Are the World!!!! We Are the Children!!!" ..wheres my lighter...
Raymon James Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:02:00 - [317] Originally by: Finfamfoom Originally by: RaTTuS Race& blood line does not matter any more sings "We Are the World!!!! We Are the Children!!!" ..wheres my lighter... Im kind of suprised this did not happen sooner given the static that erupted when people who dont play eve find out "things" about EVE and its development team(mostly not be true) sutch as "did you know that the Amarr(clearly short for "Amarrican", the way it sounds when some southerners like to say it with their pronouced southern Drawl) have a slavery based culture, and that the (atlanta) development team holds meetings at Stone mountain(youve heard of it of cource, its that MASIVE state park consicrated* by the modern * that has that giant tribute to the 3 generals who fought to preserve the instution of slavery carged into the side of it) oh and did you know that the * has a permient Easment to hold meetings their? why I bet the Atlanta team felt right at home! (I seriously doubt anyone on the Atlanta develoment team is stupid enough to be in the line of sight of stone muntain monument and *** meeting grounds, let alone hold any kind of meeting their.) (* incidentaly the monument ground was not dedicatated by the *, however the modern * did hold its first meeting there in order to recreate the *** in 1915, however the idea of stone mountain started in 1912 with the Daughters of the Confederacy)
Kiri Komorri Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.02.28 12:04:00 - [318] Originally by: RaTTuS Race& blood line does not matter any more Could you develop please ? I'm not sure I understand... (actually I maxed Charisma because I'm a leader, yeah yeah... Uh BTW I don't know what I could do with my life but I'll figure out) Kiri Komorri, space cowgirl. Where are my noodles...
Loraen	Posted - 2009.03.01 13:14:00 - [319] With Apocrypha, new characters start with attributes of 8 and 7 Charisma. They also get a standard set of skills worth about 50k SP. It contains basic things at level 2-3 like Engineering and Electronics, racial turret and frigate and so on. Everyone gets a +100% training speed until a total of 1.6M skillpoints, so if you're planning a new character soon, you can choose to make it just before the expansion and get the ~800k SP skillset and then train another ~800k at doublespeed. You can remap your attributes once a year (though I assume the free extra remap new characters get doesn't lock them for a year). The limits are minimum 5 and maximum 15 base in an attribute. Currently it's unclear if the remap forces you to put at least 5 in everything or can old characters leave below 5 attributes untouched (mostly the Achuras with 3 Cha but also Gallente industrialist types with 3 Per).
Kiri Komorri Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2009.03.01 18:40:00 - [320] Unfortunately I just created mine :'( ____ Kiri Komorri, space cowgirl. Where are my noodles...
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.03.06 12:09:00 - [321] Currently on Sisi you can re-spec twice before you get hit with the 12month block -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Lilith Krell	Posted - 2009.03.06 12:51:00 - [322] Edited by: Lilith Krell on 06/03/2009 12:54:27 Originally by: Loraen ...so if you're planning a new character soon, you can choose to make it just before the expansion and get the ~800k SP skillset and then train another ~800k at doublespeed. I don't think this will work, only characters made after the patch will get double speed as far as we know - the whole point was to make up for the reduction in starting SP's...not to mention that the 2 repsecs are only for post-patch characters. I think that training learning skills at double speed is going to be the real advantage, so why would want to try and gimp yourself by starting with 800SP worth of skills that you can learn faster at a later date? A character created on 10th march will catch up to and overtake a character created on the 9th simply by being able to respec twice, thereby speeding up the training of learning skills and increasing his/her attributes faster. You can spec int/mem - rip through the int/mem learning skills, advanced int/mem then all the other basic learnings all at double speed, then train all the int/mem support skills you want. Respec to perc/will, train the perc/will advanced learnings and move on to gunnery & spaceship skills. A year later, with a lot of essential lvl5 skills under your belt you can spec again to a more balanced/focused path depending on your career choice. The starting 800k SP's of the march 9th character would soon be irrelvent because it would take them more than twice as long to train the learnings with less optimal attributes...
Kitty Paw	Posted - 2009.03.15 06:41:00 - [323] Guys, thanks for great great input first of all, hat off! One thing I couldnt find is how cybernetics would help. I want to powerlvl my character as fast as possible (can afford any temporary implants/whatever). The question is - at what point it worth to train Cybernetics to IV for +4 implants and at what level it worth training Cybernetics to V for +5 implants if I follow the guide posted on the first page? By the way, the char is newly created and have 100% to 1.6mil boost active. I already remapped everything to Memory with bits to Intelligence to speed up the learning grind. The only thing I cannot understand is at what point its best to train lvls 4/5 of Cybernetics? Thanks.
Star P'ergish Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.15 11:54:00 - [324] Edited by: Star P''ergish on 15/03/2009 11:57:47 Edited by: Star P''ergish on 15/03/2009 11:55:24 Cybernetics has as primary Int and as secondary Memory so the best way to get to lvl 5 is: train science to 3 and cybernetics to 1 instantly plug in +3 implants then train learning skills to maximize both Int and Memory after getting to Learning 5 Analytical Mind 5 Instant Recall 5 and Eidetic Memory 4 + Logic 4 start Cybernetics 2-3-4 plug in +4 implants learn Cybernetics 5 and plug in +5 implants and you are free to continue with other learning skills. Note: you will need 3 jump clones in order not to waste your implants use FREE excellent jump clone service provided by Estel Arador (you will need Infomorph Psychology 3)
Kitty Paw	Posted - 2009.03.15 21:57:00 - [325] Edited by: Kitty Paw on 15/03/2009 21:58:57 no, you dont seem to understand ) the point is not to train Cyber V itself the point is - at what part of the skill training it is worth to move away from Learning skills and train Cybernetics IV-V to add implants to speed Learning up? I currently guess it may be worth to train Cybernectics IV after Learning IV, and to train Cybernetics V after Learning V (as in list posted on first topic), but I may be wrong here?
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.16 10:59:00 - [326] for long term, i would go for Cybernetics 4 before Basic 5s/Advanced 4s, and Cybernetics 5 before Advanced 5s. for time invested, this is most benefit at the cost of ISK.
Delta Eztrader	Posted - 2009.03.24 20:07:00 - [327] All, I took an interest in this and decided to construct a spreadsheet to determine the fastest way to get to lvl 5 in all the skills. Training the learning skills and cybernetics to lvl 5 will boost each attribute by 16.1 (including the 10% bonus from learning). Effectively the fastest order I came up with is as follows: Instant Recall (IR) 1 Analytical Mind (AM) 1 Learning (L) 1 IR 2 AM 2 L 2 Science 1, 2, 3 Cybernetics 1 (this assumes you use the +3 implants at this point) IR 3 AM 3 L 3 IR 4 Eidectic Memory 1, 2, 3 AM 4 Logic 1, 2, 3 Eidectic Memory 4 Logic 4 Cybernetcs 2, 3, 4 (use +4 implants) IR 5 AM 5 L 5 Cybernetics 5 (use +5 implants) Eidectic Memory 5 Logic 5 You can train these three sets in any order: Spatial Awareness 1-5 Iron Will 1-5 Empathy 1-5 At this point, you would train the learning skills that affect the three remaining attributes based on whichever you are the strongest in. For example, if you have PER 4, WILL 11, and CHA 4, you would start with Focus, then Clarity (because secondary skill is Will) and finally Presence. Also, do not start on these until you have completed all of the above if you want the absolute fastest way to get to the max in all of them. Based on base stats of Mem 9, Int 9, Per 5, Will 11, Cha 5, it will take 210,971.35 mins (146days, 12hrs, 11min, 21sec) to train all of them to the max. Your skills would max out at M24, I24, P20, W26, C20 (not including learning bonus). If you increased Mem and Int, you can learn them faster, but this would mean lower Per, Will, and Cha which will affect your career. For example, starting stats of M12, I12, P5, W5, C5 will take 203,331.51 mins to train to max - a savings of 7,640 mins (roughly 127 hours). But your max skills would be M27, I27, P20, W20, C20 (not including learning bonus). This will affect your training on all the remaining skills. Hope this helps!
Chathe Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.24 21:58:00 - [328] Getting cybernetics 1 and +3 implants pays off in under a day training time wise. Upgradeing to +4's from +3's it takes ~57 days with both implants in and learning 5 to recover the training time. To upgrade from +4's to +5's it takes ~ 323 days of training to recover the time to train cyber 5 ( assuming primary and secondary both have +5's and you've got learning 5 ).
Forando Interstellar Cowards	Posted - 2009.04.07 07:28:00 - [329] With two remaps available (at least at time of writing) you have the opportunity of maximizing your training a bit, if you're willing to: 1) Sit in a station for a while. You're a typical Alt or a character you train with for the purpose of selling in the Bazaar later on. 2) Use both your Attribute Remaps. It could gimp you should you decide a sudden career change. Also, this might effect your price, if you intend to sell your character before the remap is ready again (1 year after 2nd Remap) The method is simple and probably most noticeable on a combat oriented pilot. The basics: Use first Remap to get high Memory and Intelligence, train Learning-related skills with Mem/Int and skills for Implants if you need. After that is done, you basically have very high, if not optimal, Memory and Intelligence stats. Go train all the skills you need that depend on Memory or Intelligence. When you have trained these must-have skills of your choice, use Remap to set Attributes that will better reflect your character in the long run, at least the next year. DON'T forget to train the Rank 1 learning skills related to Perception, Willpower and Charisma before Remapping away from your high Memory/Intelligence wizard-hat stat. All of those have Memory/Intelligence as Primary and Secondary stat, not like the Rank 3 Per/Wil/Cha skills that uses a blend of their own Attributes as Primary and Secondary. This allows you to, especially as a combat-pilot which will likely favor Perception and Willpower in the long run, get support skills as Electronics, EW, Engineering, Cap, Shield-tanking, Armor-tanking trained to maximum or a favorable level with overall less training time. Enjoy, and fly safe..
Lord Shamster	Posted - 2009.06.25 11:08:00 - [330] Tripoli, firstly thanks fo4r this. it really helps. I have another char and account for playing. I am not using this char, just training skills with him. I bought +5s and have maxed out all learning skils to lev 5. I want him to be a fighter and fly upto cap ships and dreads, I can afford to be patient with his training as i use my other char, however I do wish to train as fast as possible for this. I only have around 6m SP with most of that being adv learning. Is it wise for me to remap now to gain better training speed or should I wait? As i say, im clear on what i want to do with this char in the future. If you think it is wise to remap, please can you suggest the best remap for me. Any help would be appreciated. Thx again
Bel Arvandan	Posted - 2009.06.25 13:28:00 - [331] Originally by: Chathe To upgrade from +4's to +5's it takes ~ 323 days of training to recover the time to train cyber 5 ( assuming primary and secondary both have +5's and you've got learning 5 ). hi all, I was just trying to work out if this was true and found I came out with different figures. This is what I believe. Going from +4's to +5's requires going from cybernetics lvl IV to lvl V. Since cybernetics is a rank 3 skill, you need to train 256k3 - 45.255k3 = 632235 more skill points. Now to work out the pay back time, I say that every skill now trains an extra 1.65 skill points per minute (with learning at V and both primary and seconary with +5's plugged in). So we simply divide 632235 by 1.65 and this gives us the number of minutes to break even. So, 383172 minutes 6386 hours 266 days So a good 57 days better than your estimate, which I now see is from training cybernectics from lvl 0 to lvl V, but this is misleading as the gain is just from +4's to +5's NOT no implants to +5's (which would pay back in 64 days btw). Sorry for being a stickler and all, but those little things bug me, yes i know it's a little sad ;-), thx p.s. first post, so greetings everyone
Vinsurith Morteth	Posted - 2009.06.26 19:28:00 - [332] This may be lame to some but I'm new and other newbies will understand. Skill Points and Attributes determine how fast I progress through the Training Que, right? Then what determines how many Skill Points and how fast I aquire them?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.26 20:16:00 - [333] Edited by: Akita T on 26/06/2009 20:23:11 Originally by: Vinsurith Morteth This may be lame to some but I'm new and other newbies will understand. Skill Points and Attributes determine how fast I progress through the Training Que, right? Then what determines how many Skill Points and how fast I aquire them? SP/hour (or per minute, or per month, or whatever you prefer) gains determine how fast you progress through your skills/skillqueue. Effective attribute values determine SP/hour gains (+60 SP/hour for each full point in a primary attribute, +30 SP/hour for each full secondary attribute, value of effective attribute is NOT rounded, every fractional attribute point also matters). Effective attributes are your base attributes (those you can remap) plus any appliable learning skill and implant bonuses (at the maximum possible, +15 total from L5 basic, L5 advanced learning skilltree attribute boosting skills and 5 point implants, and then multiplied by 1.1 from L5 learning). The sum of all base attributes (and absolute minimum you can ever have) is 39. At a maximum, the sum of all effective attributes is (39+615)1.1 = 141.9 total. The absolut minimum attribute you can get on a new character nowadays is 5 (minimum of 5 base, no learnings, no implants), absolute maximum is 33 (maximum of 15 base + 15 bonus all *1.1). EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Tahm Leukas	Posted - 2009.06.27 19:37:00 - [334] Originally by: Skie Inurian Some discussion on the forums has made me revise the weightings slightly. I think perhaps the priority given to int and mem in the chart above is perhaps too high. Here is the top-10 with slightly different weightings. I used 1.2 for mem, 1.1 for int, 1.1 per, 1.0 for will and 0.8 for charisma. 1CaldariAchuraStargazers 2CaldariAchuraInventors 3CaldariAchuraMonks 4CaldariDeteisMerchandisers 5GallenteIntakiReborn 6AmarrAmarrWealthy Commoners 7CaldariDeteisScientists 8CaldariCivireEntrepeneurs 9AmarrAmarrReligious Reclaimers 10MinmatarBrutorWorkers Those Achura feature highly in all lists! Is this list still accurate with the way the game is now?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.27 20:06:00 - [335] Edited by: Akita T on 27/06/2009 20:06:23 Originally by: Tahm Leukas Is this list still accurate with the way the game is now? Race and bloodline is irrelevant attributes-wise nowadays. Everybody starts with 8/8/8/8/7cha and MINIMAL skillpoints (below 50k). EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
Tahm Leukas	Posted - 2009.06.27 20:48:00 - [336] Thanks, I thought so. That will make character creation much easier as I won't need to crosstrain now.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.07.14 05:12:00 - [337] Edited by: Tripoli on 14/07/2009 05:13:37 It's been a couple years, but I've finally updated this guide again. While it is certainly not all-inclusive, I believe you will still find it very useful, especially the updated skill training order for the learning skills. Of course, you can always find this thread by referencing the Resource thread at the top of the Skills forum. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
Shazzaa	Posted - 2009.07.26 11:20:00 - [338] Would it be quicker to start training on Eidetic Memory before Instant Recall was at lvl 5? It seems to me that the extra Memory points that are gained quicker from the lvl 1, 2, 3 Eidetic Memory skill would let you train Instant Recall lvl 5 quicker..??
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.07.26 17:51:00 - [339] I think you may have misread that post. What you suggest is exactly what I have. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
K'rak	Posted - 2009.07.27 21:42:00 - [340] Nice post Tripoli, thanks for putting this together. ...
Khanik Khan	Posted - 2009.07.30 20:47:00 - [341] Since every race now has the same attributes, what is the best attribute spread to have for gunnery/spaceship command/drones?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.07.31 22:01:00 - [342] I'd recommend Perception be your highest, with balanced attributes between Willpower, Intelligence, and Memory. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
Kelleous	Posted - 2009.08.10 23:42:00 - [343] Only had the game a few days now. But... after reading all this, not much here applies to NEW players. Why? Well, it is recommended to train the advanced learning skills (4.5 million each) AND buy +3 Cybernetics upgrades. Those are roughly 15-20 million apeice. While it all sounds like nothing to a veteran player. That kind of money for a new character takes some time... as we HAVE to train basic stuff to get out of training... I think a thread like this is very useful... but, there needs to be a thread like this that would apply to a new player. And such information would be something like recommendations on the first weeks worth of training to get you into using a descently equipped spaceship... I mean, if you have the luxury of creating a new character and spend 100 million ISK on skills and implants... and crank his training on, and go back to playing your main... well, that's nice and all for the Vet players. Not very helpful info for the Noobs though. I bought all 6 basic learning skills and have them trained to 3 now. Going to work on training some skills "so I can actually play" and make some money. Then I'll get around to leveling them to 4.... I guess I'll probably be able to afford to buy 1 advanced learning skill per week (I can make about 1 million ISK a day right now - If I play pretty hard. I know that aint much, but it's hard to come by being a total rookie.). Good information though. I'll eventually get around to getting all that trained. Oh, and those Numbers you guys have been throwing around in this thread...? WAY too much information for me.. I'll stick with just training and playing. I'll let the game take care of all the number crunching. hehe
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.08.12 03:01:00 - [344] Originally by: Kelleous Only had the game a few days now. But... after reading all this, not much here applies to NEW players. Why? Well, it is recommended to train the advanced learning skills (4.5 million each) AND buy +3 Cybernetics upgrades. Those are roughly 15-20 million apeice. While it all sounds like nothing to a veteran player. That kind of money for a new character takes some time... as we HAVE to train basic stuff to get out of training... I think a thread like this is very useful... but, there needs to be a thread like this that would apply to a new player. And such information would be something like recommendations on the first weeks worth of training to get you into using a descently equipped spaceship... I mean, if you have the luxury of creating a new character and spend 100 million ISK on skills and implants... and crank his training on, and go back to playing your main... well, that's nice and all for the Vet players. Not very helpful info for the Noobs though. I bought all 6 basic learning skills and have them trained to 3 now. Going to work on training some skills "so I can actually play" and make some money. Then I'll get around to leveling them to 4.... I guess I'll probably be able to afford to buy 1 advanced learning skill per week (I can make about 1 million ISK a day right now - If I play pretty hard. I know that aint much, but it's hard to come by being a total rookie.). Good information though. I'll eventually get around to getting all that trained. Oh, and those Numbers you guys have been throwing around in this thread...? WAY too much information for me.. I'll stick with just training and playing. I'll let the game take care of all the number crunching. hehe no, +4's are ~20m a piece, 3's are about 13m. and i remember i've had +3's since very early on not to mention, you get them for running level 3 storyline mssions, easy for a newer player. also, even as a total noob, you should be able to make 1million isk PER HOUR (mining or level 1 missions, level 2 missions achievable within a day or 2). my friend who just started is doing that with ease. level 3 missions can probably be reached within a few days, and run with relative ease too, if you head straight for a cruiser, then battlecruiser, and if you want to head for l4's... battleship again straight after that (so anothe r1-2 months to run level 4's)
Gabebrel	Posted - 2009.08.12 23:13:00 - [345] Tripoli has gone through a lot of trouble to figure out all the skill points and how to calculate needed time for skills. the one thing he wasn't sure of in his equations is the seconds and being able to be dead on. I think I can help him with this problem as his equations will spit out a number in the end in seconds. If you then Convert that number Into minutes then into hours then into days if need be. By taking your second number and divide it by 60 for minutes then by 60 for hours then 24 for days. Then take and stop at the days and take whole number off if you have one. That will give you days. take the number after the whole number and multiply it by 24 to go down to hours take any whole number there and you have hours spot then take and multiply anything under a whole number and multiply it by 60 to get minutes. Now take the number behind that and multiply it one last time by 60 and you'll have your seconds and you round up or down according to the math of under 4 down 5 and over up and you'll get the exact seconds every time. Its long and drawn out but I am sure this is how you get exactly what eve gets.
WhiteRing	Posted - 2009.08.12 23:22:00 - [346] What are the best base attributes to train the lvl 5 learning skill list?
Kunsaka Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.08.18 07:54:00 - [347] Originally by: WhiteRing What are the best base attributes to train the lvl 5 learning skill list? probably : get glasses and read forum. [URL=http://profile.xfire.com/deserter][/URL]
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.08.19 02:57:00 - [348] Originally by: Gabebrel Tripoli has gone through a lot of trouble to figure out all the skill points and how to calculate needed time for skills. the one thing he wasn't sure of in his equations is the seconds and being able to be dead on. I think I can help him with this problem as his equations will spit out a number in the end in seconds. If you then Convert that number Into minutes then into hours then into days if need be. By taking your second number and divide it by 60 for minutes then by 60 for hours then 24 for days. Then take and stop at the days and take whole number off if you have one. That will give you days. take the number after the whole number and multiply it by 24 to go down to hours take any whole number there and you have hours spot then take and multiply anything under a whole number and multiply it by 60 to get minutes. Now take the number behind that and multiply it one last time by 60 and you'll have your seconds and you round up or down according to the math of under 4 down 5 and over up and you'll get the exact seconds every time. Its long and drawn out but I am sure this is how you get exactly what eve gets. I'm quite familiar with how to properly round the calculation and then convert it to seconds, leaving off the minutes, hours, etc. Probably the longest formula I have in my personal skills spreadsheet calculates the seconds of time remaining to train every skill in the game to level 5, while excluding the minutes, hours, days, and years. =ROUNDDOWN((SUM($R10:$R430)246060+SUM($S10:$S430)6060+SUM($T10:$T430)60+SUM($U10:$U430)),0)-((Q2365246060)+(R2246060)+(S26060)+(T260)) The current result is 7 seconds. Total time is 15 years 160 days 10 hours 21 minutes and 7 seconds. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.08.19 05:37:00 - [349] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Gabebrel The current result is 7 seconds. Total time is 15 years 160 days 10 hours 21 minutes and 7 seconds. GAAAH they better hurry up and come up with more skills for you to train! **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
Yahweh Graf	Posted - 2009.08.19 06:10:00 - [350] while not everyone is like you and trying to train useless skills i'm sure the guide has good info., though i have not or plan on reading it. imo it's really not rocket sciene that requires a guide. you want to fly a ship or shoot a gun you train those skills, walla. btw, what are you going to train when eve is no more?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.08.19 21:59:00 - [351] Edited by: Tripoli on 19/08/2009 22:00:38 Originally by: Yahweh Graf imo it's really not rocket sciene that requires a guide. My guides are more along the lines of how skills work, more so than what you should train. You may notice I'm not the type who usually responds to the, "Help me with my skill plan" threads. Originally by: Yahweh Graf btw, what are you going to train when eve is no more? Same stuff I do when I'm not playing eve, I'm sure. (I really don't play that much these days.) I work in an auction house for a living, and my hobbies include guns, cars, working out, and salt water fish tanks. Plenty to keep me occupied. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
Steve Thomas	Posted - 2009.08.22 15:49:00 - [352] OMG! HE HAS A LIFE! JK **. . . . . . . .** Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense.
SCORPY	Posted - 2009.08.22 17:16:00 - [353] Edited by: SCORPY on 22/08/2009 17:16:10 Thanks for all your hard work man.
Arresi Amarr	Posted - 2009.09.04 05:47:00 - [354] So someone please do the math for me (because I don't really know how this works): I read that to train all the learning skills to level 5 it would take 53 days. How long will it take to train them only to level 4? Also how much faster do a character with all learning skill at level 5 train a particular skill (any of them) compared to a character with no learning skills? Same question as above except the first character only has up to level 4 learning skill. Thanks.
Metalcali Dreams In Digital	Posted - 2009.09.04 06:40:00 - [355] Originally by: Arresi So someone please do the math for me (because I don't really know how this works): I read that to train all the learning skills to level 5 it would take 53 days. How long will it take to train them only to level 4? Also how much faster do a character with all learning skill at level 5 train a particular skill (any of them) compared to a character with no learning skills? Same question as above except the first character only has up to level 4 learning skill. Thanks. Everything you ask can be done in an application called EVEmon. Google it really fast and the first link will let you download this program. Toss in your LIMITED api info into the program and you can plan out your skills and see the numbers you are looking for as well. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
SIR PRIME Minmatar Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.04 11:12:00 - [356] On the updated skill plan at what point are you respeccing attributes and when does your 1.6m sp period end? Haven't created a new character in years so its all new to me again. ;) Loyal Slave
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.10.05 19:16:00 - [357] I decided not to include the respec in my learning skill plan. I don't believe it's worth wasting a respec on a 5,376,000 skill point training plan. Likewise, I didn't include the 1.6 million SP training speed reduction because I don't believe it's in most players' interest to train all the learning skills right after creation. --- All 390 skills trained. Tripoli on EVE-Sheet.com
Redcat Radjirn	Posted - 2009.10.06 13:32:00 - [358] prob mentioned many times over, but thank you Tripoli! aprox 4day savings on your plan compared to evemon!
Gorongo Frostfyr	Posted - 2009.10.18 17:35:00 - [359] Edited by: Gorongo Frostfyr on 18/10/2009 17:35:16 made this for a friend of mine, should fit into the 1,6kk skillbonus-time 1. Cybernetics 1 2. Plug in +1 or +2 Implants, maybe you've got some cash from friends. --------------------------- 3. Instant Recall 1 4. Analytical Mind 1 5. Learning 1 6. Instant Recall 2 7. Analytical Mind 2 8. Learning 2 9. Instant Recall 3 10. Analytical Mind 3 11. Learning 3 12. Instant Recall 4 13. Eidetic Memory 1 14. Eidetic Memory 2 15. Eidetic Memory 3 16. Analytical Mind 4 17. Logic 1 18. Logic 2 19. Logic 3 20. Learning 4 21. Eidetic Memory 4 22. Logic 4 23. Instant Recall 5 24. Analytical Mind 5 25. Learning 5 26. Iron Will 1* 27. Spatial Awareness 1* 28. Empathy 1* 29. Iron Will 2* 30. Spatial Awareness 2* 31. Empathy 2* 32. Iron Will 3* 33. Spatial Awareness 3* 34. Empathy 3* 35. Iron Will 4* 36. Spatial Awareness 4* 37. Empathy 4* 38. Iron Will 5* 39. Spatial Awareness 5* 40. Empathy 5* * Order doesn't matter. 41. Focus 1 42. Clarity 1 43. Presence 1 44. Focus 2 45. Clarity 2 46. Presence 2 47. Focus 3 48. Clarity 3 49. Presence 3 50. Focus 4 51. Clarity 4 52. Presence 4
Corpral Klinger	Posted - 2009.10.24 22:46:00 - [360] Best thing i can tell you new players is to get evemon, then add all of the skills to the plan, it optimizes your training times, and when you add implants in the mix, this time will lessen once you update your character information in evemon. But this is an accurate guide for the most part, i'm just giving a simple solution for getting the skills right rather than have to find this guide every time you want to learn a new skill.
Belore Khan Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.07 08:24:00 - [361] This was very very helpfull, thanks m8 -=PVP-RP=- Amarrian extremist
NanoiaBR Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.01.09 10:53:00 - [362] Thank you very much for this excellent guide! I just scrapped a 3 month-old character to start this new one, and with the help of this guide I¦m sure I¦ll do much better this time.
Heather Mordil	Posted - 2010.03.20 18:52:00 - [363] Thanks for this info, been following it to optimize my skills :D
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.03.22 00:26:00 - [364] Edited by: Tripoli on 22/03/2010 00:27:07 I've made a couple improvements to the guide in an attempt to keep things fresh, and to add a little more information to help guide the newbie pilot. In particualar, I have added brief descriptions of each skill category (I'm open to suggestions for improving these) and the total number of skill points possible in each category into post #4. --- All 392 skills trained.
Reverend Beef	Posted - 2010.03.31 19:01:00 - [365] Friendly bump. Been using this skill progression since day one and things are moving right along. Thanks for the info. :)
Reldor Silverheart	Posted - 2010.04.02 10:31:00 - [366] Edited by: Reldor Silverheart on 02/04/2010 10:33:25 One thing i am wondering, why take the learning skills all the way to 5, true it is more efficent in the long run, but for a newer char it would be more benefitial to get 4/4/4 or 5/4/4 in the beginning. My reasnoning is that taking them all to 5/5/5 in the very beginning will take a heavy toll on a main char and while ffective in the long run, will reduce the players other abilities that will help him/her get around like combat , trading or mining. I'm not saying don't take them to 5/5/5, i'm jsut saying don't do it at the start. I'll give an example, someone who has trained 5/5/5 will have aproximately 1.2 million SP. that leaves about 400k to the skillcap. If a new player instead takes them to 4/4/4 he wll have spent about 6-700k instead. Now, another benefit of taking them to onl÷y 4/4/4 at the start is the gain in skillpoints, meaning. A new player that gets 4/4/4 can for example get a quite big list of mining skills, this means the player will start making more money. In turn this will lead to that he can afford better implants. The tier 2 learning skills to level 5 does take about 10-14 days each aswell. A player will gain more in the long run by skilling up their main proffession for that month and a half or so that theese skills will occupy on the list. This won't ensure that the pilot is extremely good at what he/she does, but it will give him/her a better way to get around and make money. Also, if a pilot can start making ISK fairly soon, he/she will be able to afford +3 implants, this will improve the learning speed overall by alot. He/she could even take cybernetics to 4 and get +4 ones if he/she can make the isk to afford them. This is just my standpoint tho in this. forgot one point
Estel Arador Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services	Posted - 2010.04.02 12:13:00 - [367] Originally by: Reldor Silverheart One thing i am wondering, why take the learning skills all the way to 5, true it is more efficent in the long run, but for a newer char it would be more benefitial to get 4/4/4 or 5/4/4 in the beginning. If you want to take them to V, the most efficient way is listed here. If you don't want to take them to V, simply skip the V ones. What I did when I started was taking Int and Mem skills to advanced IV (with prereq basic V back then) and then training electronics/engineering skills to improve my frigate. Then I took the Per and Will skills to advanced IV and trained some gunnery/navigation/spaceship command skills to improve my frigate. Only after that did I take the Cha ones to advanced IV. That way all my training was still optimal (ignoring Advanced V, which I still don't have, 4 years later), without losing out on the 'fun factor' of training skills to improve gameplay. Free jumpclone service\|924 stations - 6300+ users
Andares Brydolv Caldari Brydolvs Trading and Mining Enterprise	Posted - 2010.04.03 03:55:00 - [368] Good guide! v
Barnabas Stinson	Posted - 2010.04.09 09:35:00 - [369] Quote: 29. Learning 5 30. Cybernetics 5 The plan needs to be updated to take into consideration the double speed bonus. You go from Learning 5 at 1.23M to Cybernetics 5 at 1.86Msp. 30 Iron Will 1* 31 Spatial Awareness 1* 32 Empathy 1* 33 Iron Will 2* 34 Spatial Awareness 2* 35 Empathy 2* 36 Iron Will 3* 37 Spatial Awareness 3* 38 Empathy 3* 39 Iron Will 4* 40 Spatial Awareness 4* 41 Empathy 4* 42 Focus 1 43 Clarity 1 44 Presence 1 45 Focus 2 46 Clarity 2 47 Presence 2 48 Focus 3 49 Clarity 3 50 Presence 3 51 Focus 4 52 Cybernetics 5 ** Plug in all five +5 "Improved" Implants 53 Eidetic Memory 5 54 Logic 5 55 Iron Will 5 56 Clarity 5 57 Empathy 5 58 Clarity 4 59 Presence 4 60 Focus 5 61 Clarity 5 62 Presence 5 And you could go further by adding all implants at step 24. 24. Plug in +4 Impalnts: All.
Kah'Makar	Posted - 2010.04.10 19:46:00 - [370] I built a queue of all the skills I think I'd like to have. I already had Learning at Level 5, and all the other learning skills at Level 4. All the skills I wanted to have added up to 440 days. I then put Eidetic Memory and Logic Level 5 at the top, and it added 9 days to my queue. The training time for Eidetic Memory and Logic amounted to about 29 days, so training them saved 20 days of the 1 year and 75 days of training I had planned. Adding Clarity, Focus, and Presence to the list extended the queue to 492 days. That is 43 days more. Those three skills added up to about 45 days of training. So, over the 440 days of useful skills, it looks like it saved me about 2 days off of them. I don't think I want to invest 74 days before being able to train practical skills, to have it take 43 days longer to complete the queue. It looks like it would take several years to break even on the Level 5 advanced learning for me.
B0X Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.04.23 12:17:00 - [371] Edited by: B0X on 23/04/2010 12:19:54 Been messing with skill sets to take into account the double bonus and arrived at the following. This skill set takes advantage of the high Memory/Intelligence attributes, plus only costs 2 x +4 imps. It trains skills most will need, but not all are learning, this is simply due to the 1.6 mil limit. Cybernetics 5 starts training when SP reaches 1,599,789. Cybernetics IV (Plug in +4 Impalnts: Memory Augmentation - Standard & Cybernetic Subprocessor - Standard) Eidetic Memory IV Logic IV Analytical Mind V Instant Recall V Learning V Iron Will I Spatial Awareness I Empathy I Iron Will II Spatial Awareness II Empathy II Iron Will III Spatial Awareness III Empathy III Iron Will IV Spatial Awareness IV Empathy IV Spatial Awareness V Drones I Targeting I Signature Analysis I Repair Systems I Energy Systems Operation I Long Range Targeting I Shield Management I Targeting II Signature Analysis II Repair Systems II Energy Systems Operation II Drones II Signature Analysis III Shield Operation III Cybernetics V (Plug in all five +5 "Improved" Implants) Eidetic Memory V Logic V Iron Will V Empathy V Focus I Clarity I Presence I Focus II Clarity II Presence II Focus III Clarity III Presence III Focus IV Clarity IV Presence IV Focus V Clarity V Presence V
Carthereon Crust	Posted - 2010.05.18 13:10:00 - [372] First off I want to thank you for the guide. I`ve actually taken a bit over a month off from Eve (from the gameplay that is) to just train up my learning skills following this guide. Now I did deviate a bit and in a week I`ll have everything level 5 except the advanced learning skills. I`ve seen different numbers floating around, but how long does it take for the advanced skills at level 5 to make up for the time they take to train? I`m wondering if it`s worth for me to take another month off and train the last five skills, or to simply start in on my training plan in a week.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.05.18 14:59:00 - [373] That question is answered in my other skill guide, Skill Training Times & Attributes Calculations. If you train all 5 advanced learning skills to level 5, it will take you 3 years 235 days 11 hours 3 minutes and 38 seconds to make up the time you spend training them (assuming you train using all attribtes equally...not likely). --- All 392 skills trained.
RedLion Caldari State Constructions	Posted - 2010.05.23 14:03:00 - [374] Edited by: RedLion on 23/05/2010 14:05:26 subsystems have different skills, some require int/mem other perc/will. also most (not all) of my trade skills are will/char not other way around. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.05.23 14:17:00 - [375] Originally by: RedLion Edited by: RedLion on 23/05/2010 14:05:26 subsystems have different skills, some require int/mem other perc/will. also most (not all) of my trade skills are will/char not other way around. My list was based on the simple majority of skills for those categories. Of 20 skills in Subsystems, 12 are Intelligence/Memory. Of 13 skills in Trade, 10 are Charisma/Memory. --- All 392 skills trained.
Obscura DelTar	Posted - 2010.06.19 07:23:00 - [376] thanks very much. This guide has helped me a lot as a new player
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.07.31 16:36:00 - [377] Glad to see people are still regularly using this guide and finding it helpful. I do believe this is the most-read thread in EVE at this point. Is there anything y'all think I should add to this? There haven't really been any changes to the basic skill system, so I haven't done anything in a while. --- All 397 skills trained.
DeMichael Crimson Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.08.03 14:04:00 - [378] Hi Tripoli, Excellent guide. I've been playing Eve now for over 2 years and the first character name I ever heard about in NPC corp chat was yours. I must say your bio is a legend. A few days ago I decided it was time for me to have an alt character. I've been working this skill guide on the newly created character from the start and will continue following the whole plan all the way. I just wanted to bring up a few points: 1 - You might want to do a small rewrite to Post #1 since all new characters are pretty much created equal and now have option of 2 Neural Remaps in the first year. For the 1st remap, list the best Neural Remap of attributes for optimal speed to work this skill guide. Then after this skill guide is completed, players can do the 2nd Neural Remap for optimal speed in training skills for their chosen career path (Mining, Science, Industry, Combat, etc). It might be a bit of work for you but if you could list those as well, I think that would make this guide more complete. 2 - In Post #2, on line 2 and line 24 the word 'Implants' is spelled incorrectly. Other than that - 'Thank you very much for sharing this information with Eve'.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.08.04 03:02:00 - [379] Originally by: DeMichael Crimson 1 - You might want to do a small rewrite to Post #1 since all new characters are pretty much created equal and now have option of 2 Neural Remaps in the first year. For the 1st remap, list the best Neural Remap of attributes for optimal speed to work this skill guide. Then after this skill guide is completed, players can do the 2nd Neural Remap for optimal speed in training skills for their chosen career path (Mining, Science, Industry, Combat, etc). It might be a bit of work for you but if you could list those as well, I think that would make this guide more complete. I've seen some demand for that lately. It is a bit of a pain, but I think I could get with and without remap versions at some point. Originally by: DeMichael Crimson 2 - In Post #2, on line 2 and line 24 the word 'Implants' is spelled incorrectly. Oops. Fixed. Late nights + lots o' beer apparently = impalnts. --- All 397 skills trained.
Fawcks	Posted - 2010.08.12 04:40:00 - [380] Love your guide! I'd drink your bathwater, Tripoli. <3
JTDaBeast	Posted - 2010.08.12 14:43:00 - [381] Originally by: Fawcks Love your guide! I'd drink your bathwater, Tripoli. <3 Though I would never use this comment ever in prasing a fellow player, I will admit that I admire your pride in high SP and having trained all skills in the game. It's a bragging right that will never die as long as RPG's are in existence. Nice job.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2010.09.27 14:33:00 - [382] It's a great guide bud, but how about an update with the 1.6 mil bonus speed involved. It makes for some interesting connotations, that's for sure. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Loreth Algamore	Posted - 2010.09.27 16:35:00 - [383] I've always been one to optimize, so this is a great guide for starting out. I'm rolling with 15 INT/ 9 MEM and planning on riding that layout through most of the Electronics, Engineering, Navigation, and other core skills I need before switching to PERC/WILL. Currenly using +3s for both MEM and INT. I have a 2-3 month old character who isn't learning anymore, but does have some decent scanning skills, and a bit of hacking/archaeology. Is it possible to save up for +4 or +5 implants with just those skills?
bradford2266	Posted - 2010.10.03 16:43:00 - [384] I was wondering since i fight more like pvp and pve whats skills would be most important to me?
Garp Baxton	Posted - 2010.10.03 22:01:00 - [385] Currently training an alt (not this one) with the help of this guide (which is excellent btw, many thanks). As for Neural remaps, I maxed out MEM/INT with remap 1 and will balance the attributes with remap 2 after step 48, when the learning skills that don't use MEM/INT begin.
VIT0 C0RLE0NE	Posted - 2010.10.12 19:53:00 - [386] I am now about to finish all my learning skills to lvl 4. I did not see this post until after I had begun training learning skills. So the order I used was different. Anyway, Would it be a good idea to take all the charisma I learned and put it into Intel and Percep? I am training this character to be a fighter. I already have the BS and all from an atl. Is there any reason I should keep the Charisma skill as opposed to leveling up percep and intel?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.10.16 14:44:00 - [387] Originally by: VIT0 C0RLE0NE Would it be a good idea to take all the charisma I learned and put it into Intel and Percep? I am training this character to be a fighter. I already have the BS and all from an atl. Is there any reason I should keep the Charisma skill as opposed to leveling up percep and intel? If your main focus is going to be combaat skills, feel free to reassign some of those Charisma points to whichever attribute you think you'll use the most. --- All 397 skills trained.
Tank CEO Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.03 13:03:00 - [388] Yo tripoli, how ya been? Good guide, but I have a question. I just came back to playing eve actively again and I am probably going to start up a new alt because its sorta annoying fetching ships with a -10 sec and having only 1 character. So, could you recommend to me what order I should learn my learning skills considering the 100% speed bonus? Im guessing I should basically get all learning and adv learning skills to lvl 4 to stay under that 1.2m sp mark before I lose that buff?
Prometheus Bellator	Posted - 2010.11.17 16:22:00 - [389] Thanks Tripoli for all the effort that youÆve put into this guide!
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2010.11.21 16:45:00 - [390] Originally by: Tank CEO Yo tripoli, how ya been? Good to see ya, old buddy. --- All 397 skills trained.
Jakh33	Posted - 2010.11.25 23:36:00 - [391] Sad to see that all your hard work is now for nothing with the removal of the learning skills.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop	Posted - 2010.11.26 09:00:00 - [392] nothing lasts forever. Tripoli's guide was here when it mattered. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon."
DeftCrow Redriver Gallente Best Path Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.26 19:18:00 - [393] Tripoli's guide was an integral part of Eve's history, so it's sad part of it will disappear into obscurity after 12/14. The rest of the guide is still relevant to the rest of the skill system though. I personally hope Tripoli just crosses the learning section rather than removing it. It will be a testament for the people's effort put into researching learning skill.
DeMichael Crimson Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.11.26 22:45:00 - [394] Eve just won't be the same anymore without the learning skill group which this guide helped a lot. Tripoli is still and always will be an Eve legend.
72inches	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:10:00 - [395] I for one with be a happy couple toons when learning gets wiped from my client over 4mil sp between em to spread around=eve joy
Archbishop Alphaeus	Posted - 2011.01.03 01:17:00 - [396] So, what's the new order?
Kei Darker	Posted - 2011.01.05 18:42:00 - [397] Originally by: Archbishop Alphaeus So, what's the new order? Cybernetics I Cybernetics II Cybernetics III Cybernetics IV Cybernetics IV
Wibbit Rabbit	Posted - 2011.01.06 08:01:00 - [398] Originally by: Kei Darker Originally by: Archbishop Alphaeus So, what's the new order? Cybernetics I Cybernetics II Cybernetics III Cybernetics IV Cybernetics IV har har

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Attributes & Skills û The New Guide