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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |

Orakkus
Winds of Dawn Kraken.
143
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:40:00 -
[271] - Quote
If you change this:
GM Karidor wrote: So, onwards to the ToS, which now contains the following after the change:
8. You may not impersonate or present yourself to be a representative of CCP or an EVE Online volunteer. You may not impersonate or falsely present yourself to be a representative of another player, group of players, character or NPC entity. ...
to just this:
Quote: 8. You may not impersonate or present yourself to be a representative of CCP or an EVE Online volunteer.
Then this whole argument goes away, AND the very essense of Eve Online is again preserved.
Your change to the TOS goes directly against the "HTFU" mantra that has been the lifeblood of culture in Eve Online. Understand, this isn't a little "clarification", this is a major change to a gameplay mechanic AS WELL AS a direct assault on player content. Eve Online probably WOULD NOT HAVE BECOME AS POPULAR OR RESILIENT IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE ABILITY / CHALLENGE of DECEIT that has always been allowed.
This is a game-killing change. You have no other choice but to remove it. It may take a while, but if it remains, it will happen. See, what will happen is now you are going to get some considerable GM overreach, and lets be clear.. the GM department at CCP isn't well known for its consistency. Eventually you will frustrate people into leaving the game because actions that were not only allowed, but even glorified publically.. even used as points to show how amazing Eve Online is over games like World of Warcraft or LOTRO, or whatever, are now suddenly illegal and will get you banned.
I don't know who proposed this change, but there is now an obligation to the players to remove that sentence AND let us know who the person is who pushed the change. The reason for this last request is obvious. Whoever is pushing this change doesn't "get" Eve Online and has already shown the potential to inadvertently destroy the game due to their clumsy viewpoint. I don't want them fired or harrassed, but I want to make sure that until they "get" Eve Online, they don't get to have input on major game changing activities. |

Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8702
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:42:00 -
[272] - Quote
"A player lacks the means to verify whether you are communicating with them via another one of your own characters so we're just going to go ahead and treat that as impersonation. We're completely removing trust between players from the equation and opening even more avenues for using the GM team towards metagame goals. Thankfully this policy was sanity checked by an expert shortly before he left for a round of electroconvulsive therapy" Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |

Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
185
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:45:00 -
[273] - Quote
With every post you make, you add new rules to this so-called "ToS clarification". First it was "no policy changed at all", then "well you can't claim you represent other people", now we're at "you can't claim you are your own alt". Where is this going? Will we get a post by people who actually think about what they write, or is this just the outflow of some bored intern with nothing better to do? Can you please stop claiming that you're just "restating policy", if it's blatantly obvious you're trying to shoehorn completely new rules into the ToS? |

Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4659
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:47:00 -
[274] - Quote
To be honest it's even more troubling that these insane interpretations of the rules were the status quo, and only didn't come to light because nobody was crazy enough to petition someone who said they were an alt of someone else when they actually were. |

Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
232
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:47:00 -
[275] - Quote
Yeep wrote:So who decides whether I represent a player group or not?
Say I go around offering to sell PL mercenary contracts even though I'm not an in game member of PL. If I get petitioned now a GM has to go find someone in PL and check whether I was actually authorized to sell (or attempt to sell, or scam by pretending to sell) PL mercenary contracts. Which person do you ask? Do I need to get permission from the CEO of the holding alliance? If not does the GM then have to check the line member I got permission from wasn't misrepresenting themselves as someone able to give me permission to sell PL mercenary contracts?
What if PL retroactively decides I'm awesome for scamming people by selling fake merc contracts? Do I still get banned?
We've asked that question in various forms in all of the zillion threads on the matter and still have not gotten an answer. I don't expect one now. This is the rule:-á In Eve it's always a trick. If you don't think it's a trick, you just don't have enough experience to know what the trick is. That doesn't mean you shouldn't launch on that fool anyway and roll the dice. |

Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1426
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:48:00 -
[276] - Quote
GM Karidor wrote:Where does Customer Support draw the line for impersonation? As much as we'd love to be able to draw a clear line, it is quite impossible. this is bullshit. "you may try to impersonate any ingame character or organization, other than those officially affiliated with CCP." there you go, a clear line. it may not be drawn where you want it to be but it is clear as day.
as i have already stated on page one, this whole situation is just a total disaster.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |

Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
1044
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:51:00 -
[277] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:To be honest it's even more troubling that these insane interpretations of the rules were the status quo, and only didn't come to light because nobody was crazy enough to petition someone who said they were an alt of someone else when they actually were.
It really does seem unbelievable that absolutely fundamental and defining aspects of the game have been played "wrong" for ten years.
I don't know how to suggest that this issue be taken over by someone who actually knows what they're talking about without hurting people's feelings, but it needs to be done. This is now beyond ridiculous, and obviously far beyond the purview and competence of the GM team. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |

Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1046
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:55:00 -
[278] - Quote
Yeah, I tend to agree. Can we get someone more senior in CCP to chime in here? This has descended into bizzaro land at this point. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal - Representing Goonswarm Federation, Goonwaffe, CFC Finance, Greater Economic Co-Prosperity Sphere, CFC Rental Program, Burn Jita, CFC Supply, and who knows what else.-á Vile Rat: You'e the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
673
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:57:00 -
[279] - Quote
Andski wrote:GM Karidor wrote:What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player. I read "we may take punitive action against you if you represent another one of your own characters via another character." You can't be serious. So if I allow this account to lapse because I do not intend to use it for a while, I literally cannot handle any in-game business through another character without risking a potential ban? Stop trying to claim that this is not a policy change, because it clearly is, and it's a really bad one.
If the current situation stays, you will have the duty of proving your alt is indeed the alt of Andski for example.
From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt?
More work to be done on your side than on the other side to be safe. |

Xolve
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1962
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:58:00 -
[280] - Quote
So does this mean I cannot sardonically refer to myself (in jest) as someone's alt when I am accused or insinuated to be the alt of another player?
Does this also mean- that if someone says that I am the alt of another person, and I am quite obviously NOT the alt of said person; that the accuser in said situation is in violation of this new hilariously stupid rule?
Yet again- if someone asks me who my alts are, am I required to divulge such information? Since refusing to answer would mean I am not actually the alt of anyone, which isn't actually true and would be a misrepresentation of self.
How much disclosure does this new 'rule' call for? |
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Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
336
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:58:00 -
[281] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Yeah, I tend to agree. Can we get someone more senior in CCP to chime in here? This has descended into bizzaro land at this point.
It's like CCP is in a hole, trying to get out. And a bunch of players are staring down at them, yelling 'Just put up a ladder!'
So of course, they keep digging. |

Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1049
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:59:00 -
[282] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:GM Karidor wrote:What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player. I read "we may take punitive action against you if you represent another one of your own characters via another character." You can't be serious. So if I allow this account to lapse because I do not intend to use it for a while, I literally cannot handle any in-game business through another character without risking a potential ban? Stop trying to claim that this is not a policy change, because it clearly is, and it's a really bad one. If the current situation stays, you will have the duty of proving your alt is indeed the alt of Andski for example. From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? More work to be done on your side than on the other side to be safe.
Except for the part this has been happening for many years now. People EVEMAIL the main going "is this really you?" you reply and all is well. This is standard operating procedure for many forms of business in EVE.
It seems the GM team has no concept of how to actually play EVE and is shooting from the HIP making things up as they go. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal - Representing Goonswarm Federation, Goonwaffe, CFC Finance, Greater Economic Co-Prosperity Sphere, CFC Rental Program, Burn Jita, CFC Supply, and who knows what else.-á Vile Rat: You'e the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |

Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:59:00 -
[283] - Quote
What was the reason for this change, does anyone know? My theory is that a GM was scammed 
Yours sincerely
Thy Mathammi CEO of GoodsWarm
Being serious for a moment, all of the player responses, validations and confirmations are pretty sane and sensible. There ARE ways to verify identity but it just comes down to a matter of experience and common sense. If you're in a position of having a few billion ISK scammed from you and you didn't learn how to avoid it during the time it took you to accumulate it... sorry, you really should have taken more precautions.
Why not have one of the NPC's scam a player during the initial newbie mission chain? People know that EVE can be heartless of full of trickery - show them. Give them a tutorial on how to verify identity, use the search, check corp info, history, etc. Maybe wait a few days until they're more familiar with the game, instead of adding more overload in the initial chains.
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
474
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:59:00 -
[284] - Quote
Should go ahead and say "no scamming allowed" and then just don't prosecute petitions on scamming.
You'd still get less work than what this brings about. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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David Magnus
237
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:59:00 -
[285] - Quote
I can understand trying to keep things "in-game" but no longer allowing people to claim they are the "Real Life" person behind another account or character.
However, not allowing people to impersonate in-game entities is hilariously stupid.
Does that make spying a bannable offence? If you join a corp pretending to be a loyal member but are really feeding intel to your friends, does that break this rule? http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/fight-us-maybe http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion |

Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3905
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 14:59:00 -
[286] - Quote
This thread makes me want to reg an alt, name it Solstice Project's Alt and move it to Hek.
Then I'll run around pretending to be me on the Alt, while at the same time denying it on my main. |

Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4660
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:01:00 -
[287] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify |

Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
673
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:03:00 -
[288] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:GM Karidor wrote:What needs to be kept in mind regarding impersonations is that all characters involved are seen as their own, independent entity, which effectively means it's quite possible that a situation may appear where a player impersonates his trustworthy main character using an alt character located on the same account. As there is no in-game way to verify whether or not certain characters are located on the same account (the API needs the key and external tools to be read properly, so that one doesn't count here), this case would be handled the very same way as the impersonator character being owned by another player. I read "we may take punitive action against you if you represent another one of your own characters via another character." You can't be serious. So if I allow this account to lapse because I do not intend to use it for a while, I literally cannot handle any in-game business through another character without risking a potential ban? Stop trying to claim that this is not a policy change, because it clearly is, and it's a really bad one. If the current situation stays, you will have the duty of proving your alt is indeed the alt of Andski for example. From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? More work to be done on your side than on the other side to be safe. Except for the part this has been happening for many years now. People EVEMAIL the main going "is this really you?" you reply and all is well. This is standard operating procedure for many forms of business in EVE. It seems the GM team has no concept of how to actually play EVE and is shooting from the HIP making things up as they go.
In Andski example, it is clearly written that the account is lapsed so he cannot answer evemail right?
CCP is basicly throwing the ball on your side insetad of the other. They are saying "prove who the hell you are if you want to do buisness". If you cannot prove it yourself, then you may continue with your dealings but be aware you are doing illegal buisness.
It obviously makes scamming much harder to pull off but with the clarification that was provided, it seems that if you prove to be who you try to make belive you are, then it will be fair game. |

Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
336
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:03:00 -
[289] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify
Actually, if you're on your main, and say that your alt is 'x'... Isn't that impersonating your alt? |

Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:03:00 -
[290] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:This thread makes me want to reg an alt, name it Solstice Project's Alt and move it to Hek.
Then I'll run around pretending to be me on the Alt, while at the same time denying it on my main.
What about the other way around? The Mittani is and always has been a Yeep alt. |
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
673
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:04:00 -
[291] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify
Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL? |

thee lous3
Bite Me inc Bitten.
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:04:00 -
[292] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Yeah, I tend to agree. Can we get someone more senior in CCP to chime in here? This has descended into bizzaro land at this point.
All in favour?
Aye! |

Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
232
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:05:00 -
[293] - Quote
Pretty sure we're not getting any changes to the ToS reversed. Lying about who you are in Eve is now against the rules. Just going to call it as I see it. This is an official SCC, Star Citizen Change. CCP is worried about the coming carebear apocalypse when Star Citizen is released and will be taking steps over the next year and 1/2 to reign in the bad guys (i.e. content creators) in hopes of keeping the bears.
It won't work. Making a better Eve might work. I'll just drop some words from the profit here:
"Imagine the kind of stories people would read about EVE if the carebears got their wish. 'In EVE Online, some people mined. They arranged their mining lasers, and then they did something else for several minutes. Sign up for your free 14 day trial now!'" -- James 315 This is the rule:-á In Eve it's always a trick. If you don't think it's a trick, you just don't have enough experience to know what the trick is. That doesn't mean you shouldn't launch on that fool anyway and roll the dice. |

Madeleine Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:11:00 -
[294] - Quote
So, let's test Aryth's claim here: I'm Dersen Lowery's alt. Same last name, same faction, same "race," same corp, but a different account, because it's generally nice to have scouts on different accounts.
Did I just screw myself over by claiming to be what I actually am, on a character who is named, specced and described specifically to be identifiable as Dersen's alt (her bio says she's his sister)?
Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practices of having characters apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies?
He's absolutely right that, taken at face value, that language has profound reverberations through the game. |

Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
338
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:15:00 -
[295] - Quote
Madeleine Lowery wrote:Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practice of having a character apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies?
If I claim to be part of the group goonswarm but I'm actually part of ncdot, that's impersonating a group. oh **** son, spies are now petition-able. Wait till digi hears! |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
474
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:15:00 -
[296] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Weaselior wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL?
This is the assumption of "alt" being on a different account.
This is false.
An alt (if you use that word) is one of the additional character slots on the same account.
A second account is a second account and has nothing to do with the first account.
Therefore, if you are an alt of a main, you have the same amount of access to evemail accountwide.
So no, you could not reply to the evemail, because you could not log into the game or the forums or have any other way of knowing there was an evemail (unless 3rd party comms like ts3/vent/mumble. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
673
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:17:00 -
[297] - Quote
Madeleine Lowery wrote:
He's absolutely right that, taken at face value, that language has profound reverberations through the game.
It will. Many scams will be borderline impossible unless you count on the other side to not petition it. |

Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
343
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:21:00 -
[298] - Quote
If anyone outside the CFC wants to continue to run a CFC rental scam in light of these new rules then for 500m ISK you can use my name when you get petitioned and I'll tell the GMs you are a legit representative of the CFC. |

Sam Alkawe
We are not bad. Just unlucky Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:21:00 -
[299] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Weaselior wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From CCP's point, it's probably "If you can't provide a proof that you are the alt of X, how do you expect other people to find if you really are his alt? by evemailing his main, just like any sane person would think was the proper way to verify Read Andski's example that I quoted. Can a lapsed account reply to EVEMAIL? This is the assumption of "alt" being on a different account. This is false. An alt (if you use that word) is one of the additional character slots on the same account. A second account is a second account and has nothing to do with the first account. Therefore, if you are an alt of a main, you have the same amount of access to evemail accountwide. So no, you could not reply to the evemail, because you could not log into the game or the forums or have any other way of knowing there was an evemail (unless 3rd party comms like ts3/vent/mumble.
Couldn't you use EVEGate or, hell, even EVEMon to know that you got an EVEmail? |

Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
746
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 15:24:00 -
[300] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:Madeleine Lowery wrote:Or if there has to be an attempt to deceive, did you just ban the standard practice of having a character apply to corps that you're wardeccing? Are safari characters gone now? Spies? If I claim to be part of the group goonswarm but I'm actually part of ncdot, that's impersonating a group. oh **** son, spies are now petition-able. Wait till digi hears!
It looks like you could claim to be part of CFC, though, since coalitions are purely metagame ATM.
I really do wonder how far this goes. Let's say I'm in a mining corp, and I get wardecced. I set the deccing corp red, keep Local up, and munch on some rocks. Suddenly reds appear in Local, and before I can get my Mack out, they've warped right on top of me. Can I petition that the alt scout who was sitting on top of me in a cloaky, providing a warp-in, misled me into thinking I was safe by being in an NPC corp instead of the deccing corp?
EVE is going to become completely unrecognizable if it goes this way. (Though there may well be fewer NPC alts, which isa wee bit of a silver lining.) Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
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