Hint: Hi-sec is different from lo-sec and null-sec. For one, in null-sec you don't need to declare war to shoot someone, and you suffer no CONCORDOKEN or security status penalties. In low-sec, you also don't need to declare war to shoot someone, and while you don't suffer a CONCORDOKEN, you do recieve a security status penalty. In both null-sec and lo-sec you can set up sovereignty and claim a system.

However, in hi-sec, you cannot shoot anyone without a wardec, and if you do you suffer a CONCORDOKEN as well as a large security status hit. If your security status drops, you can no longer enter hi-sec (this suggests that CCP does not want hi-sec to be filled with pirates and gankers.... hint hint). Also, you cannot set up sovereignty and claim a system in hi-sec.

Now that I've walked your hand through it, is your understanding sufficient to continue in these exchanges?

Except that they only way for them to claim the system is via the harassment of other players

Except for the fact that they are. CCP's position is the following:

http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336

Of course, you could always argue that the lone nano fit Stabber who spends his time flipping cans and bumping miners out of range of asteroids is doing it for "economic reasons", or that the Rifter who keeps flipping my friends' can "isn't targetting my friend specifically, just anyone in the system my friend happens to be in in order to 'claim' that system", but, as with most of your arguments, that one won't fly either.

Yes, it does disrupt their gameplay

Except for the fact that they are actually attacking other players and specifically those players in that sysatem

Read it more carefully. It says "An example of grief play".

The word "an" also means "one". "One example of grief play"

Derp derp.

Can flipping is officially considered griefing only in Rookie Systems.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing

a popular practice griefing miners, which are several days in the same System or easy to find with locator service agents. The agressors will try to kill a exhumer with a group of cheap ships, and afterwards extort money from the victim allowing him to mine unmolested again.

In EVE, "griefing" refers to various activities, some of which can be argued not to be "griefing" in the classic sense, but parts of valid gameplay.

Well do you truly believe that

But anyone with at least one brain cell knows that those player driven events are specifically created to kill "as many industrial ships" as possible .. there are not doing it for getting an system...

So you would have to have at least two volleys from 1400mm gank maelstrom to destroy an hulk

But that's not harassment GÇö that's just standard warfare over resources.

suicide ganking barges is about sport, not finance.

In the Goon's case, it is not "warfare over resources."

That depends: are they just keeping people out of the system or are they following the people around and actually harass them?
No, they're doing it to kill as many industrial ships as possible GÇö not to harass specific players.
GǪso, much like how it is right now then.

Ok guys, this thread is starting to get a little too long. I'm starting to lose track of what people are trying to say and what points they're trying to make. Besides, I think 10+ pages of debate is more than enough for now.

Nothing personal.

Moderators, please lock thread.

I believe they even (inwardly) question their own mental balance for having to engage in such non-constructive activity to get their jollies.

true they do not harrass individuals but specific group of people. In some way its actually more dangerous.

You believe that people are worried that they are having fun in a game?

Also, ganking builds character and teaches game mechanics. Highly constructiveGǪ if you so choose

Also, ganking builds character

Well, not quite. They harrass anybody that is engaging in certain professions. Those players are all free to do something else or do the same thing somewhere else. The griefing policy isn't so much about stopping annoying behavior, it is about two things- preying on players basically during their first few hours in the game and preventing a specific player from really playing the game at all. Outside of those two pretty narrow exceptions CCP doesn't really intervene in conflicts between players.

I do think CCP ought to look at whether ganking as a means to market manipulation is properly balanced. If it's too easy to pull off and too hard to counter for the enormous rewards it generates, they should make it harder, easier to counter or less rewarding just like they would with any other profession. After all, individual goons are now bragging on the forum about personally having made tens of billions of ISK with only a couple hours of work doing something that really doesn't take much skill. If that were suddenly true of missioning or faction warfare or exploration sites or whatever, it'd need to be looked into to.

Honestly, my feeling is that the first time somebody does it, that shows a fair amount of innovation and creativity, and it's fine they got rewarded for that. But if the mechanic stays the same then they could just keep repeating it or other corps could just copy it, and then that's just imbalance at that point. Without the innovation part, it's just money that is too easy.

But it isn't griefing.

They know the efforts they spend "ganking" unarmed ships amount to nothing in the end, just some juvenile titillation.

Nicely played.

In the Goon's case, it is not "warfare over resources."

For this to ever happen all the big alliances should kill or stop their own bots, wich will never happen.

Read it more carefully. It says "An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems." Those are the handful of systems players are born in, not all hi sec.

Even the Goon bots?

Pretty much, if you have a character and all is does is suicide gank, yes that can be banned,