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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
3042
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
The following is a summary of CSM activity over the last few days regarding the SOMER Blink promotion.
The CSM was not consulted in advance about this promotion, so it was just as much a surprise to us as it was to the community. Our reaction was broadly similar to that expressed in the forums.
On Thursday the 26th, we received an update on the situation from CCP Dolan after our regular Stakeholder meeting with Team Five-0. Later in the day, we got a second update from CCP Dolan and CCP Manifest.
During those meetings, we outlined five areas of concern that we felt CCP's response should address. These were:
1. Reintroduction of historically important or unique ships.
2. Favoring one community fan site over others.
3. Trusting a community fan site, and more particularly, a player, with the task of selecting the winners.
4. Forcing players to use SOMER Blink in order to enter -- which may have legal consequences in some jurisdictions.
5. Providing direct benefit to a for-profit gambling fansite.
CCP Navigator's announcement on Thursday of changes to the prize structure has addressed (1), and details of the method of selecting winners (which we urge CCP to make public) leaves the CSM reasonably confident that the actual drawing will be fair, addressing issue (3).
Issues (2) and (5) are business decisions that CCP has the right to make. We think they are a mistake, and hope that the uproar over this issue will cause CCP to re-evaluate these policies for future promotions. Supporting groups that have a clear educational/public service focus in-game is one thing; supporting a group that is distinctly for-profit -- and one that can use the ISK it generates to secretly support in-game groups -- breeds distrust for CCP in the community.
However, the requirement that one must be a member of SOMER Blink in order to participate remains, and for a lottery with such significant prizes, is very troubling to us. Furthermore, the structure of the lottery, which encourages and rewards extensive use of SOMER Blink, may raise legal concerns in some jurisdictions. For example, in the United States, commercial lotteries cannot require the purchase of a product or service in order to receive an entry.
For this reason, we strongly suggest that the entry mechanic be adjusted as follows:
1) Members of SOMER Blink are automatically entered into the lottery and receive one ticket, regardless of how much they use the site.
2) An alternate method (such as posting in a particular thread) be used to allow people to enter who do not wish to become a member of SOMER Blink.
We further recommend that procedures be put in place to sanity-check future promotions to ensure that they are acceptable to the community.
On Friday morning we sent this statement to CCP for their comments, and on Friday evening David Reid (CCP Pokethulu, CCP's CMO) replied to us as follows (reproduced with permission):
Quote:Thank you for your thoughtful feedback, and for the opportunity to review your statement in advance of publishing it to the community.
We acknowledge that we rushed this event, and we are certainly learning from it now.
Your statement strikes us as factually correct and appropriate to publish, and there are a few further details we want to share with you also.
First, we are developing a program to allow all 3rd parties the opportunity to apply to participate in these kinds of events and promotions with CCP support, and we will have news on that shortly. In general, we believe CCP should foster the activities our players enjoy, and it is clear these kinds of activities have a lot of support in the EVE community, much like we see in other games.
That said, we recognize it is imperative for CCP to remain impartial with respect to which 3rd parties receive CCP support for these kinds of activities. To that end, we will develop a clear policy on how we plan to conduct future events, including how we will determine which 3rd parties and which events will receive CCP support, and we will develop that policy in consultation with the CSM.
We also want to assure you that we are working closely with CCP's legal team to ensure all legal concerns resulting from this event, and future events like it, are addressed.
If you wish, it's fine to let the community know in your statement that CCP has informed you we are working on a clear 3rd party program for future events and that we will consult with you on this program as we develop it, but there's certainly no requirement for you to include this in your statement.
Thank you again for your feedback here and we welcome your further thoughts.
Thanks, David The CSM will endeavor to keep the community informed as there are further developments in this issue, and as always, your input is most appreciated.
Sincerely, The Members of the 8th Council of Stellar Management
Like any honest politician, "My door is always open, and my hand is always out" |
Chitsa Jason
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
781
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 12:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
First :)
CSM8 Member Twitter:-á@ChitsaJason Skype: Casparas
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
418
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Good, hopefully now people will shut the hell up about it and let them work on it. Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome |
Xtreem
Knockaround Guys Inc. Sin City Coalition
141
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
good job guys |
Anuillae Fourneaux
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Quote:First, we are developing a program to allow all 3rd parties the opportunity to apply to participate in these kinds of events and promotions with CCP support, and we will have news on that shortly. In general, we believe CCP should foster the activities our players enjoy, and it is clear these kinds of activities have a lot of support in the EVE community, much like we see in other games. Wait, so now lotteries and **** are going to be tied to CCP and 100% impossible to cheat?
Call me paranoid but I thought CCP was into letting players make their own systems. This seems like another way to prevent people from losing ISK when they give it to someone they shouldn't have.
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
1141
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
So CCP will now be giving out rare stuff/ISK to 3rd party organizations, and all you need to do is ask? How does that fit into the concept of a player built universe? |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc WHYS0 Expendable
992
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 12:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
There would be no problem if CCP had implemented in-game casino/lottery/slot machines accessible via station services or something. But on the other hand they could also make fitting window to be actually useful so yeah...
Anyway, nice to have CSM and CCP feedbacks and as Darek said, maybe finally people will shut up about it and increase raging about carebears genocide apparently planned November 19th. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Carka Gerschen
Ubiquitous Hurt
11
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
I am just wondering about a few things though, since when is making ISK in an online videogame a commercial lottery. I might not understand the US legal system, but that might even be too farfetched for the US legal system.
And the second thing is, wasn't the reintroduction of unique ships the main issue here and the biggest problem, considering this wasn't something worthy for the CSM to look at when CCP gave Somer Blink some prizes at their last celebration.
And going for hypothetical legal systems, wouldn't changing the way the drawing is done be a breach of contract with the people who entered ISK into the Somer Blink site, with the promise of gaining a bigger chance of winning those items?
Regards,
Carka |
ShipsOfEve
www.shipsofeve.com
0
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
I approve of this product and/or service.
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Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
641
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mr Reid said
Quote:To that end, we will develop a clear policy on how we plan to conduct future events, including how we will determine which 3rd parties and which events will receive CCP support, and we will develop that policy in consultation with the CSM.
So no, it isn't just ask and get. As to it being a new thing look back through the larger player meets and events. Swag has been happening for more than the past month. It is just this made the news because of the scale of the swag.
We (CSM) are working on it as the above letter shows. They (CCP) is working on it as well.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
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Alt Two
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Carka Gerschen wrote:I am just wondering about a few things though, since when is making ISK in an online videogame a commercial lottery. I might not understand the US legal system, but that might even be too farfetched for the US legal system I'm guessing it's since you can get blink credit by buying GTCs through a referral link on their website, effectively buying lottery tickets with real money.
I'm also disappointed that CCP completely avoided the point about not everyone being able to play Blink. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
797
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 12:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am personally enjoying -ALL- of the tears.
I enjoyed the tears of the community from when this was all anounced up to this very moment.
I enjoyed the tears of CCP when this backlashed.
I enjoyed the tears of the CSM when angry players somehow started blaming them.
Im sure Ill enjoy the tears of the somerblink organisers at some point in this debacle.
I honestly dont care about any of this, Ive never participated in Somerblink [not much of a lottery guy] but I wish them all the best. I dont mind CCP adding in old unique spacepixels into their game again, I dont mind never having a chance to get them regardless. And I dont mind wether or not CCP was wrong in doing what they did. It simply does not affect me one bit.
But seeing all these people of all sides of this ****** up fence get their panties in a bunch over silly things has been very gratifying. :P |
Kalishka Askulf
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2013.09.28 12:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Great work CSM (and you, Trebor Daehdoow, for keeping us up to date). We'll be looking carefully at what CCP has to say on this matter in the near future. Again, thank you for speaking up for us. |
Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
93
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:For example, in the United States, commercial lotteries cannot require the purchase of a product or service in order to receive an entry. So ?! Maybe time for the U. S. to adjust to globalization ? Or else, this product and/or service is not for U. S. American citizens. |
Amhra Rho
Accujac Elimination
77
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Posted - 2013.09.28 13:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Yes. This.
It's still a minefield. One of the first questions that will be asked is whether or not a given winner was chosen from the Blink pool or from the non-Blink pool. It will be a mess - one that's just best avoided as a less than stellar idea. There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance. |
Red Templar
Monkey Attack Squad Goonswarm Federation
283
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Posted - 2013.09.28 13:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thank you for your work CSM!
Not all issues been addressed in my opinion, but its good that CCP is learning from this. And it will be interesting what kind of policy they will come up with. For Love. For Peace. For Honor.
For None of the Above.
For Pony! |
Tao Dolcino
Confederation Navy Research Epsilon Fleet
123
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Posted - 2013.09.28 13:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
What this answer from CCP shows me first of all is that : 1) They don't think at all before they do something. But that is not a surprise anymore if you play EVE since a few years. And/or : 2) They indeed support RMT, breaking their own rules, but are too coward to openly admit it. There is something fishy there.
Seeing that they are continuing in the same direction (don't be fooled by the friendly tone of the answer), i think that the reality is a mix of both : incompetence and influence from some lobbies. I wish to remind everyone that there is a clear difference between unfairness in game, which is part of EVE's atmosphere, and unfairness out of game, which is not at all acceptable, for we all have to pay the same 15 Gé¼ every months. If they really wanted to thank some players for what they bring to the game, then they would support entities such as EVE-University or RvB, who have the real utility to make new players stay in game, instead a shady online casino... it's not only silly and unfair, it's also vulgar.
Edit, and thanks CSM for trying your best. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1653
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:I am personally enjoying -ALL- of the tears.
The most delicious tears are yet to come: When CCP determines that due to constant player backlash, it will be in their best interests to never again make any sort of free swag or unique items available outside of the Alliance Tournament. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Alt Two
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tao Dolcino wrote:What this answer from CCP shows me first of all is that : 1) They don't think at all before they do something. But that is not a surprise anymore if you play EVE since a few years. And/or : 2) They indeed support RMT, breaking their own rules, but are too coward to openly admit it. There is something fishy there.
Seeing that they are continuing in the same direction (don't be fooled by the friendly tone of the answer), i think that the reality is a mix of both : incompetence and influence from some lobbies. I wish to remind everyone that there is a clear difference between unfairness in game, which is part of EVE's atmosphere, and unfairness out of game, which is not at all acceptable, for we all have to pay the same 15 Gé¼ every months. If they really wanted to thank some players for what they bring to the game, then they would support entities such as EVE-University or RvB, who have the real utility to make new players stay in game, instead a shady online casino... it's not only silly and unfair, it's also vulgar.
Edit, and thanks CSM for trying your best. E-UNI and RvB don't sell game codes, therefore they will never get CCP's endorsement. |
Abernie
Massively Incompetent
115
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Good to see CSM doing stuff. Thanks for that.
Does the CSM consider the value of the prices being handed out as reasonable? To me they seem completely over the top. Like a factor of 10 over the top. |
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OldWolf69
IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
KuroVolt wrote:I am personally enjoying -ALL- of the tears.
I enjoyed the tears of the community from when this was all anounced up to this very moment.
I enjoyed the tears of CCP when this backlashed.
I enjoyed the tears of the CSM when angry players somehow started blaming them.
Im sure Ill enjoy the tears of the somerblink organisers at some point in this debacle.
I honestly dont care about any of this, Ive never participated in Somerblink [not much of a lottery guy] but I wish them all the best. I dont mind CCP adding in old unique spacepixels into their game again, I dont mind never having a chance to get them regardless. I dont mind what the CSM knew or didnt know. And I dont mind wether or not CCP was wrong in doing what they did. It simply does not affect me one bit.
But seeing all these people of all sides of this ****** up fence get their panties in a bunch over silly things has been very gratifying. :P M8, you in CVA. Ofc you enjoy tears provoqued by other ppl. You my Working Class Hero of the day. |
Rich Uncle PennyBags
EVE Online Monopoly
24
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Posted - 2013.09.28 13:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Despite the obvious mistakes that CCP have made this time, I actually like that they are trying to be more involved with community sites.
It is a tricky issue, but I'm glad to see they recognized where they got it wrong. |
Steijn
Quay Industries CAStabouts
391
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 13:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Quote:If you wish, it's fine to let the community know in your statement that CCP has informed you we are working on a clear 3rd party program for future events and that we will consult with you on this program as we develop it, but there's certainly no requirement for you to include this in your statement.
that basically says to me that CCP know what they are doing with regards SOMER is wrong, but havent the balls to stop what theyve started.
As far as im concerned, making sure it doesnt happen again is too late. If this current fiasco goes ahead, the damage has been done. |
Lee Saisima
Caldari Mining and Logistics Academy
79
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:We acknowledge that we rushed this event, and we are certainly learning from it now. This is the statement that most trouble me.
Why? Why would CCP be so keen to rush through a proposal to push a gambling site further into the architecture of the game universe? Is this type of feature a new direction for the game? Why would a virtual slot-machine need such speedy attention from the development team?
As some previous posters have stated (and I find this, ultimately whether you agree on this issue or not, to be the crux of the argument), given the list of in-game issues that still need to be addressed, and the issues with client stability, why is CCP now given over to investing *any* of its' time implementing 3rd-party gambling support??
EVE is not a gambling platform, the core gameplay is in no way related to lotteries or gambling applications - everything is either earned or taken.
Why has this become such a huge issue in the first place? What the hell is CCP doing? |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2214
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
I read CCP's statement as "Thanks for your concern, but we're still doing it anyway, and we pinky swear we will consult you next time"
This is essentially exactly the same statement navigator made, and I hope people aren't falling for it. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
801
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:KuroVolt wrote:I am personally enjoying -ALL- of the tears.
I enjoyed the tears of the community from when this was all anounced up to this very moment.
I enjoyed the tears of CCP when this backlashed.
I enjoyed the tears of the CSM when angry players somehow started blaming them.
Im sure Ill enjoy the tears of the somerblink organisers at some point in this debacle.
I honestly dont care about any of this, Ive never participated in Somerblink [not much of a lottery guy] but I wish them all the best. I dont mind CCP adding in old unique spacepixels into their game again, I dont mind never having a chance to get them regardless. I dont mind what the CSM knew or didnt know. And I dont mind wether or not CCP was wrong in doing what they did. It simply does not affect me one bit.
But seeing all these people of all sides of this ****** up fence get their panties in a bunch over silly things has been very gratifying. :P M8, you in CVA. Ofc you enjoy tears provoqued by other ppl. You my Working Class Hero of the day.
Why go through alot of effort extracting tears when you can just sit back and watch as people willingly donate their tears anyway? :) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5064
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
This is a lot of words for "we complained to CCP and they politely ignored us and continued doing exactly what they were going to do anyway" |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5066
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
"we have heard your concerns and we will change exactly nothing about this hundreds of billions of isk handout but maybe we'll do something different in the future. or not. *pats head*" |
OldWolf69
IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
74
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:"we have heard your concerns and we will change exactly nothing about this hundreds of billions of isk handout but maybe we'll do something different in the future. or not. *pats head*" "+we don't care"
|
Doris Dents
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
315
|
Posted - 2013.09.28 14:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Very disappointing CCP sees nothing wrong in principle with handing out game changing amounts of free stuff to their favored in-game entities. If Goons ever got that sort of free isk from the free isk fairy(not holding my breath on that one!) then the chaos we could sow would make Burn Jita look like a polite misunderstanding. |
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