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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.02.03 23:28:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 03/02/2006 23:43:17
 Originally by: Himser
I'm a fairly new player, and the one thing I really dislike about Eve is the skill system. I have a ton of time to kill playing an MMO, but Eve's skill system caters more to casual players. It's frustrating for me to put in long hours playing and not be able to have any additional advancement to show for it. Right now I've got more ISK than I can ever hope to use within the next 6 months just because I have to wait for skills to train.
It would be better if performing an action had a chance of adding a small amount of skill points in the associated skill ie: every time I fire a medium laser thereĈd be a .001% chance of gaining some SP in medium lasers. That could work along side the current skill system to keep everyone happy.
Sorry but no you don't have enough isk in the game for 6 months. Obviously you don't PvP or do risky things in ships. Your idea would break the game.
First off you can have a cruiser in a matter of days from the beginning of character creation. That is a 3-8 million dollar investment. In the first month you can have 3 or 4 of your learning skills trained to level 5. Elite skill books are ~4.5mil isk. Assume a thorax or rupture and you are now talking ~25mil. Lets factor in the loss of ships, insurance, modules, ammo and time investment for the operation you are running a very hefty bill.
If you sit in a mining belt all the time making riskfree isk then you are discounted from the argument because you choose simplicity and complacency. This game revolves around PvP combat.
Now In the second month... lets get you into a battlecruiser. Oops, 24 more million.
Not to mention all the skills you have bought along the way for short skilling.
I would say in the first 3 months your running isk for your expenses would be well over 100mil. In that time you can be in an assault frigate, interceptor or be a higly trained battlecruiser/gang-oriented player.
BTW I play WoW/CoV-CoH and am ex-SWG and if this game was anywhere near them or if CCP was as flexable as their DEVs I would leave after 2.5 years of playing.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Calleb
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Posted - 2006.02.03 23:53:00 -
[122]
Well - alot of posts here and i cant be bothered to read em all, but there used to be an element of experience training applied to skills, years back. I think it was removed cus of an expliot, You got points for using items (such as armour repairers), but peeps wrote macros to stealth train skills. Typical that some ar***e peeps should find a way of bug***ing it up for all of us.
Anyhow cus of this history i now have 256069 points in mechanics (earned completely fairly i must add, and completely worthless). Does anyone else have more SP than the max in any one skill cus of this?
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Al Thorr
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Posted - 2006.02.04 00:28:00 -
[123]
Skill system is fine as it is - tho I must admit skill books should be made more expensive by at least a factor of 1.5
the experience ballot is rather ill thought out. is it a gun being fired at a player or npc .... for example?
but at the end of the day the experience factor is too easily conned.
Keep it simple amd relatively straight forward.
Regards Al Thor
"You cant polish a turd" - The new rendered font is living proof.
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Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2006.02.04 00:45:00 -
[124]
So many skills these days have level V prereqs because most of them are for people who want to SPECIALIZE in one said area. You shouldn't be a superuberleet pilot who specializes in everything. That sort of takes away the meaning of the word "specialize". Find your niche and fill it.
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Relain Linday
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Posted - 2006.02.04 01:58:00 -
[125]
I would like to seeless level 5 prereq's they are a real grind. But I like it the way it is in terms of how its time not how long you play. I think some have already said this to some extent but hey ho I will say it again. I have set up this character to be a pure Amaar character. ie. No other race of ships or non Amaar weapons will go on those ships. I think it wuld be cool if I got some sort of extra racial bonus for this. It would to some extent make peeps specialise a bit more. and make battles a bit more fun. Maybe provide a few surprises.
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Haargoth19
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Posted - 2006.02.04 02:03:00 -
[126]
I really like the system here, but there could be some improvements 
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Erosie
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Posted - 2006.02.04 03:02:00 -
[127]
The best thing about these skill system is that i can switch skills whenever I want without loosing that time invested! This is the greatest part of this system imho. BTW im pretty new, but i have to ask, why do i always get the warning/message that I won't loose the time when i switch my skills?? Was this different in the past? or will it be different when training higher skills??
anyways EvE system=RockON!
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Niffo
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Posted - 2006.02.04 05:29:00 -
[128]
Skill system as-is is great - much better than grind-fest XP games that just benefit people with 14 hours a day to play.
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Zeke Novak
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Posted - 2006.02.04 09:21:00 -
[129]
I love it personally. I played Ultima for a while, and even though the skill system was far superior to any XP based tripe, it still had the problem of requiring an insane amount of grinding to get anywhere. EVE is much more fun, since you can do whatever the hell you want while Dohicky Manufacturing V is training, as opposed to making 100000 Dohicky's clicking over and over again.
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SunWuKong
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Posted - 2006.02.04 20:37:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Himser
I'm a fairly new player, and the one thing I really dislike about Eve is the skill system. I have a ton of time to kill playing an MMO, but Eve's skill system caters more to casual players. It's frustrating for me to put in long hours playing and not be able to have any additional advancement to show for it. Right now I've got more ISK than I can ever hope to use within the next 6 months just because I have to wait for skills to train.
It would be better if performing an action had a chance of adding a small amount of skill points in the associated skill ie: every time I fire a medium laser thereĈd be a .001% chance of gaining some SP in medium lasers. That could work along side the current skill system to keep everyone happy.
Use that extra money to purchase some UBER attribute implants. That'll speed learning along a bit, just be more careful where you fly cause it will hurt much more if you are podded with those in there.
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Steppa
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Posted - 2006.02.05 02:19:00 -
[131]
What we need is a mentoring system. This would, of course, require a Mentoring skill to be trained, as part of the Learning skills area. It would grant the ability to help train someone else more quickly than they could learn on their own.
The Mentor would have to have V in whatever skill the pupil wants. Let's say the Mentor could teach that given skill to 1 pupil at level 1 and +1 pupil per level of Mentor skill.
Being mentored means the pupil trains the skill at x2 speed. Mentoring does not stop the Mentor's personal training goals, but does slow them down by 50%. This would be modified -10% per level of Mentoring the Mentor has trained, thus at level V Mentoring, he would have no penalty at all for helping his mates.
Make it a requirement that only corpmates could be trained.
I can see highly skilled characters opening up "universities" and charging for training :)
I can definitely see people taking advantage of this and it especially helps the newer guys.
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Anderi Bourdieu
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Posted - 2006.02.05 04:33:00 -
[132]
Admitting that he hasn't read all the posts....it's 5 pages...come on!
Though the skill system is revolutionary...i.e. new. It ultimately will be self defeating. Why? Well, because a new player wanting to access the high level stuff will know that he can't until he spends 2 yrs. training skills. When a new player sees the time he must invest he will simply say, "Screw this, I'm out of here...."
Sorry, that's the MMO truth...
________________________________________________
Commander Anderi Bourdieu - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards
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Nize
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Posted - 2006.02.05 07:09:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Anderi Bourdieu
Sorry, that's the MMO truth...
I think the player number increases over the past months indicate your comment is completly wrong, guess all people aren't after being the l33t'ist and instead play the game to have a fun time.
As to the skill system... best system ever. No mindless clicking to train skills or kill x mobs to gain levels, you can play the game as you want to and given thats the basis for Eve the system is a perfect fit.
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Larsonist
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:09:00 -
[134]
I dunno if anyone has said this as an idear yet, i stopped reading after page 2 and my eyes becoming like glass...
A few suggestions brought up gave me the idea that maybe the level 5 aspect of skill training/pre-requisites could be changed to enhance "specialization" in a skill set. For example, training to level 4 could be done via the current system, but to achieve level 5, actual usage of the skill...which is not technically level 5 yet but more of a gray area between the completed level 4 and the eventual level 5, would allow for completion. Just a thought. 
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:31:00 -
[135]
Having played many grind games (using a skill is the only way to increase) it as well as both points games (as the game progresses you get points to use to advance skills) and level based games (each new level advances you skills) I have come to the conclution that the system EvE uses is one of the best.
While it is true that I would love for the game to have some way to through action and practice become better it is equally true that such an addition would cause more troubble than its worth.
In the early days of EvE you did get training bonuses for using skills... this however only led to people blasting rocks with lasers all day long in 1.0 systems so it was removed.
In EvE skill training will not give an advantage to the player that can spend the most time, it will however give a wide range of other bonuses to the active player.
Isk, knowhow, RL skill in the game and so forth.
One of the things I really like with EvE is that even with a player like me that has 30+ mil skillpoints on him I can meet upp with a new player and have fun playing with him/her despite the skillpont difference.
If I team upp with a two week old player and he/she helps me do lev 4 missions that two week old player can actually meen a risky mission becomes an easy one.
In normal grind games such as WoW joining together two people like that is impossible.
A lev 10 char with even the best possible gear can in no way assist even a lev 40 char with crappy gear, in reality the lev 10 will probably get the lev 40 killed simply by being there.
In short, I prefer the EvE RL time to train skills above any other system I have thus far seen.
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Phobes
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Posted - 2006.02.05 11:38:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Maderda Kuhal
The third option of course. Neither of the first two work well independently nor do they make sense. I can initially learn the basics of a skill simply by reading about how it is done. Then hone the skill by practicing it. You can only become so adept at something by reading. Sooner or later you have to actually put what you've read into practice to be really any good at it.
Example: I can read about how EVE is played until my eyeballs drop out. To be able to play the game with any skill I actually have to get in there and do it for a time. Conversly, I could go right in and play. But I won't know alot without reading about how it's played, either on the forums or from chats.
For those who were not around In The Beginning, you could receive experience by doing things. That was removed because some were abusing it (macro). I guess it was easier to throw something out rather than try and fix it.
Of course it's far too late to change the way skills are trained so any opinion will remain exactly that, an unrealized opinion.
I partially agree with this. Skills should be just as they are now, but the more you use them the better they get.
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Dr Caymus
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:26:00 -
[137]
The EVE skill system is totally outstanding...an unequivocal success. I love it almost as much as Tripoli 
I have followed the game since 2001...this fan site was extremely active, even pre-beta during development. One of the original game concepts was to deliver a skill system that was "time-based" rather than "activity-based" (for lack of better descriptive terms) so that the casual gamer or "weekend warrior" would be able to remain competitive with the 24/7 power gamer, at least with respect to skill base. I commend CCP for staying the course, only wavering slightly and briefly once, with this skill set philosophy.
The one brief departure from a pure time-based skill system was in the summer and early fall of 2003, shortly after the game's release, when a "hybrid" system was in effect...where a small amount of skill points were awarded to certain skills for in-game activities such as activating/deactivating modules, docking/undocking, etc. This, of course, was exploited by pilots setting up lengthy autopilot routes around secure space, repetitively opening and closing cargo contaners or activating/deactivating certain modules, etc. A few players claimed at the time to have gained up to 1 million extra skill points in this way.
New players are not at a huge disadvantage. I think the 100,000 subscriber statistic speaks for itself in this respect (congratulations, CCP!!) Think of the 80/20 rule here...the skill system is an excellent example...you get 80% of the benefit with the first 20% of the effort. In other words, you can get to level 4 in a skill, gaining 80% of the sklll's benefit, in about 20% of the time it requires to get to level 5. Furthermore, another player said it well in a different post recently: being competitive in EVE is 1/3 skills, 1/3 equipment and 1/3 player ability. With properly managed skill growth, a player can be competitive in a chosen field with just a few million skill points.
Advanced skills and level 5 prerequisites are an important part of the system also. These provide the more seasoned player with new goals and challenges...paths to differentiate further and gain greater levels of expertise. The game requires commitment, dedication and patience...a two year old player should be able to be better at something than a six month old player.
I personally look forward to continued evolution of the current system.
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TimeKeepr
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Posted - 2006.02.05 16:42:00 -
[138]
skill systems is great as it is. its what makes eve successful.
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DrElJefeMD
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Posted - 2006.02.06 09:57:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
Originally by: Himser
I'm a fairly new player, and the one thing I really dislike about Eve is the skill system. I have a ton of time to kill playing an MMO, but Eve's skill system caters more to casual players. It's frustrating for me to put in long hours playing and not be able to have any additional advancement to show for it. Right now I've got more ISK than I can ever hope to use within the next 6 months just because I have to wait for skills to train.
It would be better if performing an action had a chance of adding a small amount of skill points in the associated skill ie: every time I fire a medium laser thereĈd be a .001% chance of gaining some SP in medium lasers. That could work along side the current skill system to keep everyone happy.
as mentioned before, they had that in for a brief period, but what could you say, it got exploited nearly instantly, resulting in CCP taking that SP gain through usage out again, wich was a wise decission actually.
we dont want to have macroers not only gain a ton of isk, but also a ton of skillpoints they could use to increase their sells when they get rid of their accounts on ebay (wich is of course against the eula)
Here is the problem, as you are not looking at it from someone who started playing the game right after the holidays (I started around 28 Dec 2005). No matter how hard I play at the game, it doesn't matter in that it does not affect my progression. I am not a powergamer. I am a 36 year old CPA who was looking for something after quitting SWG. What I have come to understand about this game is that you really are not even close to being competitive in any way if you have less than say 6 mill skill points. I am at the point of just logging on once every couple of days for the next 6 months to 9 months as it has become nearly pointless otherwise. And here's where I have a problem. I would rather play the game to be rewarded with skills instead of just logging on to select new skills to train.
This is not to say that I do not understand the allure of the current way the skill system works. However, if everyone had to start out with a new character, I am just curious how many would "really" enjoy the current system and how many of the people who are saying that they love the current system are 3 year vets with 22 million skill points?
Regards & Stay Classy
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Darlan Flame
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Posted - 2006.02.06 10:09:00 -
[140]
I wanna meet all these new players who get 60 billion isk in their first month and have to spend the next five waiting to be able to spend it, because I've always spend MY time in between skill training scraping together isk.
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TheNecromancer
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Posted - 2006.02.06 11:02:00 -
[141]
I think the skill system in eve is perfect..dont change it 
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.02.06 11:04:00 -
[142]
Originally by: DrElJefeMD
Originally by: Manfred Doomhammer
Originally by: Himser
I'm a fairly new player, and the one thing I really dislike about Eve is the skill system. I have a ton of time to kill playing an MMO, but Eve's skill system caters more to casual players. It's frustrating for me to put in long hours playing and not be able to have any additional advancement to show for it. Right now I've got more ISK than I can ever hope to use within the next 6 months just because I have to wait for skills to train.
It would be better if performing an action had a chance of adding a small amount of skill points in the associated skill ie: every time I fire a medium laser thereĈd be a .001% chance of gaining some SP in medium lasers. That could work along side the current skill system to keep everyone happy.
as mentioned before, they had that in for a brief period, but what could you say, it got exploited nearly instantly, resulting in CCP taking that SP gain through usage out again, wich was a wise decission actually.
we dont want to have macroers not only gain a ton of isk, but also a ton of skillpoints they could use to increase their sells when they get rid of their accounts on ebay (wich is of course against the eula)
Here is the problem, as you are not looking at it from someone who started playing the game right after the holidays (I started around 28 Dec 2005). No matter how hard I play at the game, it doesn't matter in that it does not affect my progression. I am not a powergamer. I am a 36 year old CPA who was looking for something after quitting SWG. What I have come to understand about this game is that you really are not even close to being competitive in any way if you have less than say 6 mill skill points. I am at the point of just logging on once every couple of days for the next 6 months to 9 months as it has become nearly pointless otherwise. And here's where I have a problem. I would rather play the game to be rewarded with skills instead of just logging on to select new skills to train.
This is not to say that I do not understand the allure of the current way the skill system works. However, if everyone had to start out with a new character, I am just curious how many would "really" enjoy the current system and how many of the people who are saying that they love the current system are 3 year vets with 22 million skill points?
Regards & Stay Classy
I've just started a new combat character.
I'm training it for 2 weeks and then stopping training.
It will be competative, it wont be uber. Fun is to be had at all levels of the game.
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Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2006.02.06 11:48:00 -
[143]
EVE's skill system is my favourite method of advancement. Grinding for XP sucks.
Consider this an EVE skills 4tw answer for the poll.
-----
Just because you couldn't get a ship to do what you wanted doesn't mean it's a crap ship - it means you're a crap pilot of that ship.
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Fto Cruise
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:00:00 -
[144]
Move all pre-reqs to level 4, with the bonus level 5 gives you being doubled.
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babyblue
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:07:00 -
[145]
I preferred the original system in Beta, where it was mainly time based but you gained SP for module use. For example, you would get a small amount of SP each time you used your afterburner, towards the afterburner skill. This is quite realistic imho. The only problem was that people could sit outside of the station with their AB on in order to "level up". If there were some hybrid system where you could get a small, limited amount of SP "maximum" per day from actually using your kit, then that would be perfect.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:13:00 -
[146]
The skill system is Eve.
Change the system, break the game.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Felicia Stone
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:21:00 -
[147]
I'm a new player aswell and I love the skill system in Eve. An example for me is the fact that I'm off to Canada for 2 weeks and when I get back I'll have Cruiser 5 done \o/
I think that a positive side effect of the skill system is that it encourages a more mature player base. When I say mature I'm not just talking age here as I think that having the patience to get the most out of the Eve skill system shows a high level of mental maturity (as opposed to the 'must have best stuff now!' mentality). People with job/kids/other half have a level playing field with people that have more time to play.
The fact that the system does attract the more 'mature' player base is also one of Eve's most positive points.
Flic
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:30:00 -
[148]
XP, because Im a powergamer and even after starting late into the game, could catch up the big boys by hitting the level cap.
Time based games can only have so much shelf life. Eventually SP outweighs playing ability.
The Eve Guild Wars Project! |
Rafein
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:30:00 -
[149]
Personally, I like the skill system.
But honestly, Eve is both. You grind for isk, while skill is freely given.
And in Combat, both are important. You can have all the skills in the game, but if you don;t have the isk to buy and outfit a ship, it won't do you any good. And Vice Versa.
Isk and Skill are mutual, Having one and not that other puts you at a disavantage
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Absolute Evil
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Posted - 2006.02.06 12:35:00 -
[150]
The EVE skilling system is great.
The newer players complaining that they get no benefit from playing long hours are incorrect, you are learning from your experience.
How many of you started this game and got BBQ by NPC rats and can now destroy them without thinking.
This game trains you to start taking on bigger and bigger foes, till the point you actually start to PVP and that difference is vast.
Any player that thinks after 1 month he can go into low sec space and rule is going to be bitterly dissapointed.
Take your time, focus on the aspect of the game you wish to play and then slowly start to explore.
A 6 month old player in a balanced fitted ship can do a lot in this game!
Fools rush in where brave men fear to tread! (And keep them coming I say!!)
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
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