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The "Sniping BS Gang" needs a good counter.

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Lifewire	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:06:00 - [61] Lo3d3r said it all - there are so many ways how a sniper can be killed...people just don¦t use these countertactics. But on forums they demand of CCP the game gets changed. I sell tactics to kill a sniper for 100 mil. And i do not talk about the "use a covert ops" or this kind of crappy tactics. I know at least 2 absolutly effecient ways to kill a sniper, but my knowhow costs ISK. And you can be sure it¦s worth these ISK because you can easily kill a sniper and sell his tech II stuff. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:13:00 - [62] I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. EW is not a "counter" to a long range sniper the way that it is to a short or mid-range battleship. At most, EW (and realistically only one or two pieces of EW) can temporarily deter a sniper at long range; it does not STOP him because he can still pre align and then warp out/back in at a different spot or just wait for the EW guy to fail a jam/dampen once and blast the ever loving crap out of him. In contrast, short-range EW is a clear counter to something like a gankageddon or blasterthron because the pilot is vulnerable to up-close tackling, drones and other damage while he sits there unable to target. Plus EW has a greater chance of working at short and mid-range. At long range EW is merely an inconvenience; nothing about EW takes the sniping BS permanently out of the fight. So back we are to trying to use your own cloaked covert ops going ~500-800m/s to reach something that can potentially warp in 100-200km away, immediately realign, and be out 30 seconds later with a couple of frigate or cruiser kills unless you're packing your own set of sniper BSs. Like I said before, the sniping BS gang doesn't have an actual counter the way a balanced game should, because the solutions to stop snipers are all either 1) very difficult to enact against somebody who knows how to pre-align and 2) temporary stopgap measures like targeting-denial EW that do not actually remove the enemy from the fight permanently since he can still warp away.
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:22:00 - [63] If you got 20 players, you should have 100 sentry guns at use. With few tracking boosters they get to shoot to 150km. Put them at proper distances, and nobody is going to snipe anything. --- Sell orders Free money for n00bs
Lifewire	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:25:00 - [64] Convo me, pay 100 mil and i give you at least 2 ways how to nail and kill a sniper. Both tactics are absolutly efficient and can not be countered by the sniper. He will die. I guarantee for success. Both tatctics have nothing to do with covert ops or EW or crappy tactics people usually use to attack snipers. Both tactics are absolutly deadly for snipers. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Fred0	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:33:00 - [65] Remedial, I think you are wrong and this is so blatantly a biased whine to achieve more for your low-end mass fleet type of playing that it's not even funny. Truely disgusting whine. ---
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:45:00 - [66] Lick your wounds and move on .. you will gain more respect by doing so then trying to start to flame them beacuse they were smarter then you .. Like me i smacktalk alot i get poded i get ****ed but i move on .. The last thing i do is make a thread about how lame this and this was .. you got PWNED it happens .. and besides i had two battleships sniping me untill they got tired of it since i could warp away anyway and my battleship was tanking them ... So its not about counter its seeing that you can warp away when you want to .. they dont have you pinned down so just be smart and leave the system and if you come back change tactics and cov op warp gang to them and gank them .. But instead you stayed and died .. buhu ..
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 11:51:00 - [67] Originally by: Lifewire Convo me, pay 100 mil and i give you at least 2 ways how to nail and kill a sniper. Both tactics are absolutly efficient and can not be countered by the sniper. He will die. I guarantee for success. Something tells me that anybody who demands money up front for their SUPER SEKRET TACTIX that will win Eve and make you a billionaire is trying to sell you a piece of swampland.
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:05:00 - [68] Sniper BS are only useful if they are already in the same system as you. To be suceptable to a sniper more than once you are obviously gate camping, so just move 1 system down, and leave a handful of frigs at the gate inbetween your camp and the system you left the snipers in. they can't jump in, as even a handful of frigs will deter them, and you can camp without interference. Max
Niobe	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:07:00 - [69] snipers are lame, should be banned from the game next bump will cost you 1o0m
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:09:00 - [70] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Quite simply put: Deal with it. If you're in Frigates and you die to Battleships sniping at 200k then you're just being ******* stupid and deserve to die. Agreed . Who are this bad mans that are killing you left and rigth?

Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:11:00 - [71] Originally by: Max Teranous Sniper BS are only useful if they are already in the same system as you. To be suceptable to a sniper more than once you are obviously gate camping, so just move 1 system down, and leave a handful of frigs at the gate inbetween your camp and the system you left the snipers in. they can't jump in, as even a handful of frigs will deter them, and you can camp without interference. Or you need to defend the system for whatever reason. Or you are mining or trying to protect miners. "Just leave" is not really a viable option if you actually live in that system.
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:28:00 - [72] lol you have come to every conclusion except actually realising you need to change ship for one and do something about them ... how hard is it to have a cov up line up next to them not to damn hard ... you heard all the solutions yet you still just have a backup argument..
Shirei	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:30:00 - [73] Having been a member of one of the gangs you are indirectly whining about here, I can say... Yes, 160-180k sniping involves very little, if any risk - however it also involves very little if any reward.. the only thing you can reliably hit at that range are other BS or maybe BCs - and the only way you can really kill any BS at that range is either by having VERY large gangs or many support ships/interdictors to hold down the enemy fleet (at which point it becomes a normal long-range BS fight). Against frigates and cruisers, the -75% tracking penalty of t2 long range ammo pretty much means you won't hit much even at 180k, unless both you and the target are sitting still (and who sits still while there are sniper BS sitting at that range ... well they deserve to die). Frig-sniping used to be really annoying before the HP-upgrades, but now it doesn't work all that well anymore in any case - it is insanely hard to hit frigates at all with long range BS guns, no matter at what range (the only range where it is kinda possible is 120k with normal t1 ammo, but ceptors that keep a bit of transversal velocity can't be hit even then). For that reason, most people will only do pure long-range sniping, if they are outnumbered so badly that everything else would be suicide - or if the enemy fleet has a composition that would make any closer engagements pointless (in this example - who in their right mind would try and engage a 60-80 man gang consisting of frigates with a total value of about 50-100 mil with a 15-20-man gang consisting of long-range BS worth about 2b at close range). There are also enough counters to long range sniping, not involving cov ops but just a bit of ingenuity that can at least deter snipers. The easiest and most effective is obviously having a few long-range BS of your own (who then have the advantage of being already aligned when the hostiles warp in rather than having to re-align first), but there are many more - quite a few of which would have been open to you with the fleet composition you had. And yes, as you say, since the advent of long-range t2 ammo, the standard fighting range for larger scale BS combat has moved further back from the 80-120k it used to be before to 120-180k. This is to exploit the advantage you get by fitting said t2 ammo while some or all of your opponents may not have it (rendering them unable to hit at that range). I would personally like BS combat at shorter ranges more, but that is the way this game has evolved.. so adapt or die, as they say. And the good thing is.. if you can get a fleet specifically fitted for extreme long range to engage at a range that is not that good to them (for example by following them through a gate or having them jump into you), you typically have a good chance of beating them a bit outnumbered.
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:31:00 - [74] its kinda like me making a topic about some one using an alt in a shuttle to spy on you and give away information and just warp back and forth .. its the damn game we do our best to kill him and he comes back in a new shuttle .. Bassicly so its something you can do and someone is putting a alot of effort in it .. Its the game accept it and move on ..
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Valkazm lol you have come to every conclusion except actually realising you need to change ship for one and do something about them ... how hard is it to have a cov up line up next to them not to damn hard ... you heard all the solutions yet you still just have a backup argument.. Could you like, contribute to the thread instead of trolling? I laid out an argument about EW vs. Sniping above. Why don't you quote and address that instead of posting LOL NOOBZ LOL
Gissa	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Remedial There is nothing more frustrating in Eve right now than a group of 10 sniping battleships, stuffed with T2 guns and T2 ammo. They can literally sit 150-200km away from virtually any smaller ship and pound it into pieces in seconds. Since the game relies on an "align to warp" system instead of some inherant countdown for warping away, a group of BS can warp in, fire while realigning to a safespot, then warp away to the safespot as soon as anything gets within even 50km of them. No scrambler reaches that far. No interdictor bubble is big enough. No covert is fast enough to bridge the gap before the BS's are realigned. No probing is fast enough to find the new safespot those BSs just went to. Warp bubbles pre-deployed do not catch people who warp in from "off" angles - it's just an uncounterable move unless you have your own set of sniping BS. Instead of interdictors being the great counter to sniping BS, sniping BS now use interdictors to just lock down enemy fleets so they can snipe them even harder. Instead of coverts being a potential counter, sniping BS just warp to coverts at 100 so they can be 150-200km away from their targets. Only the longest range EW has a chance CHANCE of working at 200+km, and only a very few ships will work for that. And even if the EW works, you still haven't removed the sniping BS, just delayed him. Plus it's hard to get an entire gang of sniping BS EW'd at the same time with no overlap or missed targets. Even a carrier has a hard time dealing with BS snipers. Since you can just insta to a gate and leave if you're targeted by fighters, or instadock, they aren't effective at actually killing snipers. Also if you're at extreme range it still takes the fighters some time to get to you, and a sniping BS gang can simply pop a couple fighters as they approach and then warp off since they don't scramble - or better yet, go to a safespot and have the guy tank the fighters while everybody shoots them off of him! T2 ammo have just made this whole process worse. Now there are "guided precision" missiles and other ammos that can make a BS sniper hit from farther away, hit smaller ships like inties or other tacklers harder, and make it so that they don't even have to devote lowslots to WCS so they can just pile on more tracking enhancers, etc. I think that this is significantly effecting high-level game balance. Fleet combat is all about who can bring a few interdictors, a few coverts, some EW and craploads of sniping BS since virtually anything else is a waste in large numbers. In small combat, small groups can't do jack against a lone T2 laden T2 ammo sniping BS. He can just bounce from safe to safe to safe and come in whenever and wherever he pleases - especially if he has an alt covops to run around with him. I don't know how to fix this problem, but I hope I'm not the only person *****ing about it. Soloution is to use the same medicin as they do, T2 sniping battleships. Og wait, you guys only fly T1 frigs. Well don¦t complain over T2 ammo. Your guys are underskilled and thus can¦t counter these kind of tatics. If you can¦t manage throw int he white towel m8...
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:34:00 - [77] Originally by: Remedial Originally by: Max Teranous Sniper BS are only useful if they are already in the same system as you. To be suceptable to a sniper more than once you are obviously gate camping, so just move 1 system down, and leave a handful of frigs at the gate inbetween your camp and the system you left the snipers in. they can't jump in, as even a handful of frigs will deter them, and you can camp without interference. Or you need to defend the system for whatever reason. Or you are mining or trying to protect miners. "Just leave" is not really a viable option if you actually live in that system. Apologies, I thought you did not own any space to defend? Isn't it just NPC stations up there? Miners can move system just as easily as a gate camp. If it is your home system you should have plenty enough BS pilots to counter this with your own firepower. Max
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:37:00 - [78] Originally by: Shirei There are also enough counters to long range sniping, not involving cov ops but just a bit of ingenuity that can at least deter snipers. The easiest and most effective is obviously having a few long-range BS of your own (who then have the advantage of being already aligned when the hostiles warp in rather than having to re-align first), but there are many more - quite a few of which would have been open to you with the fleet composition you had. 1) "Have the same stuff as them" is not a counter. In any game that involves balanced sides, a counter is a way to defeat a certain tactical move which typically uses fewer resources than it took to make the first tactical move, but requires some sort of preparation, greater numbers, etc. The counter to a T2 loaded blasterthron should not be limited to "another blasterthron with faction mods" 2) As I posted before, long-range EW is not a counter either, since it leaves the enemy sniper alive. It may temporarily stop the sniper, but there is both a chance to fail, and the opportunity for him to warp off someplace else and attack other targets with impunity. A true counter would be something that you could do to catch and kill the enemy sniper, even if it required multiple people. At the moment, the CovOps/Force Recon sneak-up-on-the-sniper is slow and inefficient, since 1) they travel slowly 2) the sniper can pre-align and load out with WCS and 3) he can use his own CovOps buddies to get distant warp-ins in any random direction, so he gets to pick the battlefield distances.
Shirei	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:40:00 - [79] Edited by: Shirei on 19/03/2006 12:42:14 I said not involving covert ops. There are still a few tactics to effectively deter snipers or make sure they don't kill anything just by using a little bit of ingenuity - being on the opposing side, I am certainly not going to start explaining them here in this thread though. A little hint - a sniper BS is only vulnerable for about 10-15 seconds after the initial warp-in.. Consequently you need to make sure you have a way of getting to their warp-in point within those 10-15 seconds.
Arcturus Lynx	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:43:00 - [80] Originally by: Remedial There is nothing more frustrating in Eve right now than a group of 10 sniping battleships, stuffed with T2 guns and T2 ammo. They can literally sit 150-200km away from virtually any smaller ship and pound it into pieces in seconds. Since the game relies on an "align to warp" system instead of some inherant countdown for warping away, a group of BS can warp in, fire while realigning to a safespot, then warp away to the safespot as soon as anything gets within even 50km of them. No scrambler reaches that far. No interdictor bubble is big enough. No covert is fast enough to bridge the gap before the BS's are realigned. No probing is fast enough to find the new safespot those BSs just went to. Warp bubbles pre-deployed do not catch people who warp in from "off" angles - it's just an uncounterable move unless you have your own set of sniping BS. Instead of interdictors being the great counter to sniping BS, sniping BS now use interdictors to just lock down enemy fleets so they can snipe them even harder. Instead of coverts being a potential counter, sniping BS just warp to coverts at 100 so they can be 150-200km away from their targets. Only the longest range EW has a chance CHANCE of working at 200+km, and only a very few ships will work for that. And even if the EW works, you still haven't removed the sniping BS, just delayed him. Plus it's hard to get an entire gang of sniping BS EW'd at the same time with no overlap or missed targets. Even a carrier has a hard time dealing with BS snipers. Since you can just insta to a gate and leave if you're targeted by fighters, or instadock, they aren't effective at actually killing snipers. Also if you're at extreme range it still takes the fighters some time to get to you, and a sniping BS gang can simply pop a couple fighters as they approach and then warp off since they don't scramble - or better yet, go to a safespot and have the guy tank the fighters while everybody shoots them off of him! T2 ammo have just made this whole process worse. Now there are "guided precision" missiles and other ammos that can make a BS sniper hit from farther away, hit smaller ships like inties or other tacklers harder, and make it so that they don't even have to devote lowslots to WCS so they can just pile on more tracking enhancers, etc. I think that this is significantly effecting high-level game balance. Fleet combat is all about who can bring a few interdictors, a few coverts, some EW and craploads of sniping BS since virtually anything else is a waste in large numbers. In small combat, small groups can't do jack against a lone T2 laden T2 ammo sniping BS. He can just bounce from safe to safe to safe and come in whenever and wherever he pleases - especially if he has an alt covops to run around with him. I don't know how to fix this problem, but I hope I'm not the only person ***ing about it. OOOO Cry Cry, someone else has developed an uncounterable tactic that just roxors lets nerf hard because im an uncreative person who cannot develop a counter boo hoo. Well i for one dont give a ** about what you think. EvE is an open universe. Sniper BS are very hard to counter if not impossible but thats the charm of the game, develop a new tactic, think of something new and brilliant. Use your noggin for something constructive instead of crying nerf.

Dukath	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:48:00 - [81] Long range is overpowered compared to short range. The reason is simple. dual bonus modules A sensor booster boosts both range as locking time. So a long range ship will always lock faster than a short range setup. Tracking computers give better optimal and better range, negating the tracking bonus short range guns have over long range guns even if the fight moves closer. The only way to balance short range vs long range (and solve the snipe run tactics and snipe gate camps) is to split those dual bonus modules. Make 1 sensor booster that lowers range but gives better lock time, another version that boosts range but makes locking time longer. (makes perfect sense too tbh). That way long range fleet battles will be a bit slower, giving short range setups the option to get closer or get out. A combination of long range and short range tacklers will of course be effective. So sensor boosters, tracking boosters and similar modules need to become 'change modules' in stead of 'boost modules". You give some range and receive better lock, you give tracking and receive better optimal etc.
Nev Clavain	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:50:00 - [82] Unfortunately for you this thread will probably attract more of the same to your doorstep. I can understand the feeling that sniping is somehow 'cheap', but really its not its just another way of fighting with its own strengths and weaknesses. Having such a young fleet unfortunately does not equip you that well to compete with T2 snipers. NOt that it is impossible to defeat them. Hoardes of well placed sentry drones sounded like a good plan to me for a fleet with acess to so many members. Take comfort in the fact that in 6-12 months when most of your fleet can do the same with large T2 guns, you will be a formidable force.
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:50:00 - [83] Ok, given that we're stipulating a sniping BS with 200km of range, and he has his own covert ops alt in system, and he can warp in at any given point in any given direction, we are talking about defending a sphere of space that is roughly 200km in radius and 400km in diameter. Let's assume that the sniper warps in at the limit of his range and immediately begins realigning, and it takes him 15 seconds to realign (which I think is generous). If an interceptor takes off and begins traveling even 6 km/s towards him as soon as he is on scanner, the MWD interceptor will only get 90km towards him before he's realigned. Even at 10 km/s - speeds which people cannot reach without faction loot and possible some sort of skirmish gang bonuses - you're still 50km off when he's fully realigned and on his way out. Meanwhile the sniper has had time to take a few potshots at the inty because the inty has totally ignored transveral in favor of speed. If the inty wants to present transveral so he doesn't get nailed by a salvo that can one-shot him, the time required to get within scramble range gets even higher. And remember, we're still assuming an incredibly fast interceptor here.
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:52:00 - [84] Originally by: Dukath dual bonus modules This is actually one of the best ideas I've ever seen posted here to help combat the problem, nice.
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:53:00 - [85] Originally by: Nev Clavain Take comfort in the fact that in 6-12 months when most of your fleet can do the same with large T2 guns, you will be a formidable force. You know guys, I have 25M SP, BS V and a bunch of other skills. It's not like I can't outsnipe snipers, I just choose to fly other ships.
Shirei	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:57:00 - [86] If you choose to fly a certain type of ships exclusively, does that mean CCP should turn that group of ships into win-buttons and allow you to counter any situation with them?
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.03.19 12:57:00 - [87] like you choose to die in it aswell ?
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 13:00:00 - [88] Originally by: Shirei If you choose to fly a certain type of ships exclusively, does that mean CCP should turn that group of ships into win-buttons and allow you to counter any situation with them? No, and that's not my argument. My argument is that sniping BS don't have a counter that is on the same level as their ease of use post-training.
Remedial	Posted - 2006.03.19 13:13:00 - [89] What is that, the sixth or seventh person who has said "THERE IS A COUNTER BUT YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO FIGURE IT OUT AND I AM TOO LAZY TO POST IT NOOB LOL!!!" Do these people pop up in every thread about ship/module changes?
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.03.19 13:14:00 - [90] funny you said that perhaps this thread belongs there instead, anyway the answer is one you wont like so why post it!? Im a noob, bear with me :P



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