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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:25:00 -
[121]
"The argument is that it takes a wildly disproportionate degree of organization, skill point totals, and numbers to counter the sniping BS. Whether you disagree with that statement or not, please address that argument, rather than "lol couonters exist lolz.""
I don't think the fact there's advantage on the side of attacker is necessarily "wrong" here -- this is common element to plenty parts of EVE combat, and it's quite necessary to allow for combat to take place at all (if there is no benefit in being the attacker, then nearly everyone settles for being the defender ... and well, that means no fight)
The issue is rather, with introduction of long range tech.2 ammo the snipers got in their hands something they've been so far denied ... i.e. high damage that up to now they had to give up if they were fighting at long ranges... as tech.2 ammo comes with more than double turret optimal when compared to matching --damage-wise-- tech.1 charges. Which, much like the tech.2 precision missiles reverses all changes CCP tried to introduce in order to make the combat longer and brings it back to pre-changes state :|
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Calenth
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:27:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:29:54
Originally by: Lifewire
Quote: The argument is that it takes a wildly disproportionate degree of organization, skill point totals, and numbers to counter the sniping BS. Whether you disagree with that statement or not, please address that argument, rather than "lol couonters exist lolz."
Not true - still you ask the DEVs for a change without using your brain before. There is a simple way to kill a sniper with less than 10 mil equipment and less than 2 mil skillpoints. Pay 100 mil and iŠll tell you. Sorry, but i wont give these tactics for free, i prefer forum tolling
"catching them AFK" doesn't count either, and neither does "get really close to them," or any other strategy that relies on the sniper being stupid. If you don't have something concrete to contribute to the thread, you're really just trolling it. Signature removed - file size/width too large.Laurelin |
cyklop
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:31:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Calenth
Originally by: Lifewire
Quote: The argument is that it takes a wildly disproportionate degree of organization, skill point totals, and numbers to counter the sniping BS. Whether you disagree with that statement or not, please address that argument, rather than "lol couonters exist lolz."
Not true - still you ask the DEVs for a change without using your brain before. There is a simple way to kill a sniper with less than 10 mil equipment and less than 2 mil skillpoints. Pay 100 mil and iŠll tell you. Sorry, but i wont give these tactics for free, i prefer forum tolling
"catching them AFK" doesn't count either. If you don't have something concrete to contribute to the thread, you're really just trolling it.
The OP whined about a tactic and "demands" solutions to counter it for free... and you call his offer trolling?
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:33:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Deja Thoris It prolly wont work but it'll give you something to do
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Calenth
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:34:00 -
[125]
Originally by: cyklop The OP whined about a tactic and "demands" solutions to counter it for free?
No, he didn't.
Signature removed - file size/width too large.Laurelin |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:36:00 -
[126]
Amerame, read Avon's actual suggestion please.
Dr Smacktalk, hint:
#1 They won't hang arround long enough in one place. Plus they're moving at 75% of the covert so getting there takes a long time. #2 To the GATE, from outside scan range of course. This assumes they're sticking arround with your fleet in local rather than just costing you a bunch of ships when you enter the system. #3 Warp in...in time to see their departing warp trails. Wait, how DOES that help? They're at-speed and aligned. #4 Yep, all night without being able to touch them! YAY NOT.
The1, because that amo is stupid? Like ALL T2 amo, really.
Lifewire, stop scamming in balance threads. It's not funny and it's not clever. If you do it again I for one will petition it. (j0, I do know Lifewire's rep and that's why I think he's scamming). And yes, one of them is "ten times as many snipers and melt them before they can warp out". Well, guess what - if you need 10x as many, something's BROKEN.
Dukath, YOU ARE WRONG. They will fit 2 range and 2 tracking any you'll be right back when you started with snipers - except now, setups without 4 mids spare have zero chance of striking back within a reasonable time. The RIGHT way of doing it is slashing BOTH bonuses of the module by 50-60% and leaving it combined. THINK about it - your way does NOT softcap range or locking time by any more than today, mine DOES.
And if you do change modules for that, what is your argument for not splitting damage and other dual-bonus modules the same way?
Remedial, yes they do. It's it FUN.
Admiral IceBlock, limited radius which they're warpin in outside of. (is that broken? perhaps.)
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
sejdi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:41:00 -
[127]
Quote: Lifewire, stop scamming in balance threads. It's not funny and it's not clever. If you do it again I for one will petition it. (j0, I do know Lifewire's rep and that's why I think he's scamming).
You don't know anything about Lifewire then. If he would scam anyone he would be out of TDG the same moment. It was actually him who made this rule.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:47:00 -
[128]
Heh.
He may forget a little incident 18 months ago. I haven't.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:48:00 -
[129]
Quote: "catching them AFK" doesn't count either, and neither does "get really close to them," or any other strategy that relies on the sniper being stupid. If you don't have something concrete to contribute to the thread, you're really just trolling it.
There are countertactics. I sell those. You are just pi$$ed because you got sniped and now want to change the game instead of using your brain. How does it make EVE better to remove sniping??? Then all people fit close range guns and PVP looses some options. So the whole discussion is useless. There are long range guns and close range guns. Long range guns do less damage and have crappy tracking. Close range guns do more damage and have better tracking. From my view everything is fine this way. What you demand would be comparable to removing all artillery from armys of these days and only keep infantry.
Btw: i have played loads of shooters too. And there where allways players that said: you pu$$y-sniper! While they had a machine gun...these people simply have the wrong gun on long distance adn are pi$$ed because the sniper gets a frag. Simply whiners.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Calenth
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:54:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:56:34 Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:55:30 Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:54:25
Originally by: Lifewire
There are countertactics. I sell those.
Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Maya here. As much as I hate to be. Even if what you're doing isn't a "scam" in the most explicit, technical sense, it's not a valid form of argument. If you have an argment to make, make it.
As to the remainder of your commentary: With t2 ammo, long range guns do short-range damage. Signature removed - file size/width too large.Laurelin |
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sejdi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:54:00 -
[131]
Edited by: sejdi on 19/03/2006 15:54:38
Originally by: Maya Rkell Heh.
He may forget a little incident 18 months ago. I haven't.
Could you evemail it to me? Sorry, don't have access to my original character atm. Would like to know what it was .
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sejdi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:00:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Calenth Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:54:25
Originally by: Lifewire
There are countertactics. I sell those.
Sorry, but I'm agreeing with Maya here. As much as I hate to be.
You can't agree with someone who claims something based on knowledge you do not have.
Of course, it is your right to not trust someone trying to sell you information.
Reading on forums I know that you are about to become or already have the biggest corp in EVE, I think you may become also the most dangerous one if you start using your numbers effectively and accept that it is the player who needs to adjust to given situations and tactics, not the game.
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:01:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Calenth Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:20:11 Edited by: Calenth on 19/03/2006 15:19:04
Originally by: Professor McFly So how do you counter an enemy watching your fleet's movements with a Covert Ops?
I could play the "you can't think of that yourself?" game everyone else is, but c'mon. Three safespots, you warp around to them . .you know the answer to that.
That isn't a "counter" in the sense that Remedial is asking, since you don't kill the covert ops that way, but then again, covops by themselves don't actually kill anyone either, so there's no balance problem with their strong survivability. Sniping battleships, on the other hand, have strong survivability AND strong offense, both.
You can't prevent the Cov Ops from watching when your fleet jumps in, out, sets up at snipe range, which systems you pass through or your fleet makeup and numbers. Hiding at safespots 100% of the time is as much of a counter as not staying in visual of a BS sniper gang is for your situation.
Point I was trying to make is, there are some things which do not have a counter other than doing the same thing, or adapting to make the enemy's tactics unprofitable - and there is no resultant gameplay problem as a result. An FC who knows there is enemy Covert watching them will adapt and act accordingly. An FC who knows there's a well setup BS snipe gang with prepared warp in points should do the same.
A "counter" should not always be restricted to "kill the other guy". __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:02:00 -
[134]
Experienced pilots can allways find someway to kill snipers.
What needs to be fixed is the -10 pirates sniping 3 month old pilots in lowsec outisde sentry gun range.
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:04:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Professor McFly on 19/03/2006 16:04:20
Originally by: Spokesperson Experienced pilots can allways find someway to kill snipers.
What needs to be fixed is the -10 pirates sniping 3 month old pilots in lowsec outisde sentry gun range.
Instas, nanos, resistances, transversal, friends, high sec.
But that is off topic. If you need further debate on that then make your own thread. __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:06:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Professor McFly
But that is off topic. If you need further debate on that then make your own thread.
IM SORRY
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:07:00 -
[137]
No, i am just not willing to give you knowhow for free.
However - EVE is a wargame with thousands of combat modules. A wargame should have long range weapons. There is nothing to discuss, only some whiners that got sniped that have no clue how to counter a sniper.
Compare to RL - 1 sniper can easily attack a group of enemy soldiers on 600 m. But in close combat he will suck. Or compare to modern naval warfare. Cruise missiles like the Tomahawk can be launched on thousands of miles distance - and why? Because they can! If you come with some destroyer with normal guns to attack such a ship that is fitted with Tomahawks you will not win this battle, quite simple.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:09:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/03/2006 16:09:56 Lifewire
Then don't post about it here. This thread is for debate and discussion - if you can't bring your points to the table, don't bring them, don't just talk about how uber they are.
And blah blah - it DOSN'T MATTER. They are aligned. They are at speed. The only possible tactic is a ram and scramble by the covert, and that usually fails and costs you the covert into the bargain.
Been there, done it - from both sides.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Calenth
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:09:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Professor McFly
You can't prevent the Cov Ops from watching when your fleet jumps in, out, sets up at snipe range, which systems you pass through or your fleet makeup and numbers. Hiding at safespots 100% of the time is as much of a counter as not staying in visual of a BS sniper gang is for your situation.
Point I was trying to make is, there are some things which do not have a counter other than doing the same thing, or adapting to make the enemy's tactics unprofitable - and there is no resultant gameplay problem as a result. An FC who knows there is enemy Covert watching them will adapt and act accordingly. An FC who knows there's a well setup BS snipe gang with prepared warp in points should do the same.
A "counter" should not always be restricted to "kill the other guy".
That's a fair argument to an extent, but I would argue thata while the Covert Ops may not be directly counterable, the covert ops can't do anything by itself, and thus doesn't need a "counter" in the sense of "kill-ability." You can counter and kill whatever backup the covops is bringing in, and once you've done that, you can go back to doing whatever you were doing before -- mining, missions, tiddlywinks, whatever.
The difference is that since the sniping bs, using t2 ammo, packs a heavy offensive punch, its strong defensive survivability is much more of an issue. Signature removed - file size/width too large.Laurelin |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:10:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/03/2006 16:10:29
Originally by: Remedial I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. EW is not a "counter" to a long range sniper the way that it is to a short or mid-range battleship. At most, EW (and realistically only one or two pieces of EW) can temporarily deter a sniper at long range; it does not STOP him because he can still pre align and then warp out/back in at a different spot or just wait for the EW guy to fail a jam/dampen once and blast the ever loving crap out of him.
Remedial, Dampens CANNOT FAIL.
Thus, one dampener per sniper = snipers cannot do ANYTHING. When they can't lock ANY of you, they will get bored.
Just because Goonfleet is too uncreative to take out snipers doesn't mean sniping needs to be nerfed. I thought SA goons were more adaptive than this.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:13:00 -
[141]
Dark Shikari ?
Falloff = chance to fail. DEEP falloff = small chance to work. And you need at least two to succeed per sniper, given they have stupidly high lock ranges.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:17:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Dark Shikari ?
Falloff = chance to fail. DEEP falloff = small chance to work. And you need at least two to succeed per sniper, given they have stupidly high lock ranges.
Not for dampeners. Falloff decreases the effectiveness of a dampener, not its chance to work.
Due to the sensor booster stacking penalty, snipers no longer have as stupidly high lock ranges as they used to.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:20:00 -
[143]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 19/03/2006 16:20:30 Dark Shikari,
That is not my experience with using them.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:20:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Calenth That's a fair argument to an extent, but I would argue thata while the Covert Ops may not be directly counterable, the covert ops can't do anything by itself, and thus doesn't need a "counter" in the sense of "kill-ability."
Here's another:
what's the "counter" to a fleet consisting of 30 combat BS, 20 support and 10 EWar ships all gunning for you? __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:21:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/03/2006 16:21:08
Originally by: Maya Rkell That is not my experience with using them.
That's what I've always been told, and what I've found when using them.
I used to fly a Cerberus on SiSi and tried some sniping--I would damp people who tried to snipe me back and it worked every time, even at 150km.
If it doesn't work this way and I was just lucky... it should work this way
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:27:00 -
[146]
Jeez...
Enough of the can counter / can't counter arguement.
Very long range sniping is ultimately boring and bad for the game. If we want to get rid of instas, sniping is one of the things that needs to be looked at.
Sensor boosters need to lose their duel effect, minimum.
In fact, it is probably time for another look at the whole targeting mechanic.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:29:00 -
[147]
Avon, once more, that's not going to help. BS with lots of mids will just slap on both sorts.
What's needed is a lower softcap* on the bonuses wich sensor boosters grant. Slash their effects - both of them - in half.
(*it's not hardcaped becuse adding modules after three DOES improve, if only slightly)
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:34:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Avon, once more, that's not going to help. BS with lots of mids will just slap on both sorts.
What's needed is a lower softcap* on the bonuses wich sensor boosters grant. Slash their effects - both of them - in half.
(*it's not hardcaped becuse adding modules after three DOES improve, if only slightly)
I did say it was a minimum move, and that the whole system needs reworking..
...however, it would have a marked effect because if you want uber range sniping you want mids for tracking computers.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:36:00 -
[149]
um?
Tracking is LESS important at range. At ultra range, you can quite easily pick off frigates because anything they do, even moving at 1km/s with an AB (MWDing makes you even MORE vulnrable) is unlikely overwhelm the tracking of the BS.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Remedial
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:37:00 -
[150]
Honestly when I thought they'd release interdictors in the game, it was going to be something like the Star Wars concept where interdictors "point" at an area of space and nothing within range can warp out, but it swivels very slowly, the interdictor itself has crap offense, and only moderate defenses. In that case the sniper would have to focus all his fire on the interdictor to get away, which might even make logistics cruisers better in the long run since you could pair up logistics + interdictor + CovOps + EW to shut down long-range fleets and force them into close range encounters.
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