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Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.11.11 05:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Have you ever considered the reason most people don't go into null or low sec is because you're out there? This may be hard to believe, and it isn't meant as an insult. If your idea of "play" is destroying things, including the efforts and aspirations of other people, and you're unhappy with null and low sec because there's just not enough people out there to get your ya yas out, it may be highly likely the problem is with you, not the mechanics of the game.
The reason I say this is this issue of null/low/hi sec keeps getting tossed around, but the cogent point about why players aren't encouraged with the idea of leaving hi sec specifically isn't really covered adequately, or is so heavily stomped on by the "destructive" players who also can't seem to keep their attitudes confined to their playing "styles."
So, here it is. The great majority of EVE players do not find constantly fighting with no real opportunity to be creative (rather than destructive) a satisfying, enjoyable or productive way to spend time. This obviates (Google it) itself by the sheer numbers of complaints from the destructive players, and the relative lack of similar complaints by those who are contemptuously labeled "Care Bears." It's even to the point where the destructive minority is urging CCP to change game mechanics to force the productive players into their arena so they may be supplied with a steady stream of victims.
Oddly enough, this disdain for a destructive gaming style has not so much to do with cowardice (and the destructive types with some sort of bravery) as it has to do with the mind-numbing repetitiveness of destructive gameplay. Face it. More intelligent, and widely versed people require something a bit more intricate than pew pew to attract their interest. Self-imagined thugs, however, need only to kick a hole in something to get their titillating giggles out. The adrenalin rush is okay. The satisfaction of seeing an intricately planned and well-executed creation reach fruition is much, much better.
As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.
Read it and weep.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
158
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 05:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sig Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 05:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
TD;DR
Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.
This is not the case though there is much room for colonizing 0.0 and building something that would be talked for ages. There are very few things that come even close to what you can do out there and build out there. Then like all things in order to build you must find the ashes of before to build upon.
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Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.11.11 05:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Sig Thanks for proving my point. We, on the other hand, are glad you're there.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 05:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Naw... it's the mechanics of the game.
1. Sov structures = too much HP and nobody wants to grind through the timers + stations plus HP of the 3 reinforcement timers you have to wait for.
2. Supercaps.
3. Null has no perks or bonuses. After the sanctum nerf, all the "bears" found it easier and more rewarding to grind incursions or lvl4's in empire so they left.
Definitely mechanics dude.
So, we're bored and mad and gonna take it out on you.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
luZk
Jaegerkorpset
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
If there was no destruction, there would be no reason to build new stuff. |
Gilbaron
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
so, how about building and creating something in 00 ?
you can of course put all your building and creating effords into building and creating something that is that much of a benefit for those who only want to destroy (hint: they dont necessary !) that they start defending it for you
ofc not talking about current 00 being not the place to build and create stuff, but at least, there is hope |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:so, how about building and creating something in 00 ?
you can of course put all your building and creating effords into building and creating something that is that much of a benefit for those who only want to destroy (hint: they dont necessary !) that they start defending it for you
ofc not talking about current 00 being not the place to build and create stuff, but at least, there is hope Why should we when we can make more isk running level4's in empire + incursions?
It's not Rocket Surgery |
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
45
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:so, how about building and creating something in 00 ?
Because 0.0 is all about making ISK. And jealously guarding the ISK making. I for one, don't get why the largest alliances don't open up the space to immigrants while imposing a tax structure.
Why aren't the holders of large sovereign space developing that space? I'm wiling to bet that with the right leadership and skills, a huge chunk of high sec population could be moved to null sec and rival Empire space in productivity and income. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:
Oddly enough, this disdain for a destructive gaming style has not so much to do with cowardice (and the destructive types with some sort of bravery) as it has to do with the mind-numbing repetitiveness of destructive gameplay. Face it. More intelligent, and widely versed people require something a bit more intricate than pew pew to attract their interest. Self-imagined thugs, however, need only to kick a hole in something to get their titillating giggles out. The adrenalin rush is okay. The satisfaction of seeing an intricately planned and well-executed creation reach fruition is much, much better.
So you're saying that PVP is more repetitive and mind numbingly boring than mining, manufacturing and trading?
Softly schooling you one post at a time since 2011-10-27 |
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:
Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.
No, basically said that low/null players are on the losing end of the prisoner's dilemma, having hit "Defect" a few too many times. Now they complain because all you ever get every round is a single point, when they used to get 5. Too many wolves and not enough sheep. But if the wolves are so elite, why can't they just learn to eat wolf? Crying for the sheep to come back won't make them come back, the sheep have better things to do. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
MeestaPenni wrote:Gilbaron wrote:so, how about building and creating something in 00 ? Because 0.0 is all about making ISK. And jealously guarding the ISK making. I for one, don't get why the largest alliances don't open up the space to immigrants while imposing a tax structure. Why aren't the holders of large sovereign space developing that space? I'm wiling to bet that with the right leadership and skills, a huge chunk of high sec population could be moved to null sec and rival Empire space in productivity and income.
We actually are but there's still a couple obstacles in our way to completely freeport Delve.
Ptraci wrote:Nova Fox wrote:
Basically said that High Sec Players like to create not destroy.
No, basically said that low/null players are on the losing end of the prisoner's dilemma, having hit "Defect" a few too many times. Now they complain because all you ever get every round is a single point, when they used to get 5. Too many wolves and not enough sheep. But if the wolves are so elite, why can't they just learn to eat wolf? Crying for the sheep to come back won't make them come back, the sheep have better things to do.
Like level 4's and incursions... amirite?
It's not Rocket Surgery |
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
45
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:We actually are but there's still a couple obstacles in our way to completely freeport Delve.
What are the obstacles?
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Orien Ardent
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zagdul, you're not getting what the OP is saying, Ptraci got it.
A good question would be, what should change in nullsec player attitude to bring industrial players to null. Please keep in mind that null is designed to be in conflict. It would be unreasonable to expect that no one should attack freighters or the like.
So, a question to OP, what should null look like (including player attitude) for industrial players to be interested in going there? |
Jita Alt666
502
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Have you ever considered the reason most people don't go into null or low sec is because you're out there? This may be hard to believe, and it isn't meant as an insult. If your idea of "play" is destroying things, including the efforts and aspirations of other people, and you're unhappy with null and low sec because there's just not enough people out there to get your ya yas out, it may be highly likely the problem is with you, not the mechanics of the game.
The reason I say this is this issue of null/low/hi sec keeps getting tossed around, but the cogent point about why players aren't encouraged with the idea of leaving hi sec specifically isn't really covered adequately, or is so heavily stomped on by the "destructive" players who also can't seem to keep their attitudes confined to their playing "styles."
So, here it is. The great majority of EVE players do not find constantly fighting with no real opportunity to be creative (rather than destructive) a satisfying, enjoyable or productive way to spend time. This obviates (Google it) itself by the sheer numbers of complaints from the destructive players, and the relative lack of similar complaints by those who are contemptuously labeled "Care Bears." It's even to the point where the destructive minority is urging CCP to change game mechanics to force the productive players into their arena so they may be supplied with a steady stream of victims.
Oddly enough, this disdain for a destructive gaming style has not so much to do with cowardice (and the destructive types with some sort of bravery) as it has to do with the mind-numbing repetitiveness of destructive gameplay. Face it. More intelligent, and widely versed people require something a bit more intricate than pew pew to attract their interest. Self-imagined thugs, however, need only to kick a hole in something to get their titillating giggles out. The adrenalin rush is okay. The satisfaction of seeing an intricately planned and well-executed creation reach fruition is much, much better.
As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.
Read it and weep.
The opportunities to be constructive in 0.0 far out weighs the opportunities to be constructive in empire.
|
Gilbaron
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote: ofc not talking about current 00 being not the place to build and create stuff, but at least, there is hope
shameless selfquote
thats actually the most important sentence in my posting
00 should ofcourse be much more profitable than it is right now while also encouraging people to start socialising a lot and risking a bit
i like the idea of nerfing havens and sanctums (again) while buffing plexes and exploration (a lot) big and small industrial players should depend on pve players finding and cleaning plexes while beeing protected by pvp players
everything thats soloable and profitable is a big problem for eve, there should always be teamwork involved in getting rich and famous because thats whats making mmos so sucessfull, the more crossover it is and the easier it is to get into said teamwork the better |
Dyner
Midgard Protectorate
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Remove high sec.
You want guards? Hire NPC or Player "body guards" to escort you around.
Leave station and gate turrets; in fact...put them at every station and gate. Make people destroy them if they want to keep camping.
Or..
Do the same above but split and make two shards; PVE and PVP.
This current system isn't going to work. Because I can go and gank in hi-sec. So those who absolutely hate pvp will be pissed.
If CCP does something to remove ganking in hi-sec; all the pvpers will be pissed.
At least with two shards...IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT FOR ROLLING ON THE PVP SHARD OR FOR "FLAGGING" ON THE PVE SHARD.
*shrug*
Can't please everyone; so long as I'm pleased I don't care |
Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
I dont know why people are so hell bent on getting people in low or null. If people wanna stay in Hi sec, let em stay in Hi sec. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Orien Ardent wrote:Zagdul, you're not getting what the OP is saying, Ptraci got it.
A good question would be, what should change in nullsec player attitude to bring industrial players to null. Please keep in mind that null is designed to be in conflict. It would be unreasonable to expect that no one should attack freighters or the like.
So, a question to OP, what should null look like (including player attitude) for industrial players to be interested in going there? Carebears need to harden up.
Null is better (in my opinion) to build in and achieve what you want. You can just about do everything in null you can do in empire. In most cases, it's safer because you know who your enemies are.
Honestly, I feel safer in nullsec than I do in empire. The problem is that there are too many people in the game who take on new pilots and tell them that 0.0 is this horrible disgusting palace and that evil people live there who's only purpose in life is to make your's, the new player, miserable. This is far from the truth and too many empire alliances/corps/institutions teach that null sec is horrible and that you shouldn't attempt to go if you have less than 20m SP and capitals and etc...
I've _NEVER_ lived in empire. When I had < 2 m SP, I was in null sec. I advise this to all pilots.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 06:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
IMO wormholes offer the most opportunity to build. You have your own POS, you have to mine and manufacture things you need so you don't have to keep going back out for more supplies, you have your own little base you need to maintain out in space... IMO w-space is custom made for exactly what you're talking about OP. |
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Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 07:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
I find the OP uses some very specific language. And, I see some of the more vocal responses seem to brush over this as though one way of saying something is no different than another.
Firstly, Ms. Repose said nothing about wanting or not wanting to explore or engage in that aspect of the game. She says it's a "sucker's bet." Her premise is "the smart thing to do, given the circumstances that exist." I can take from that that she's not closed to the idea of low/null sec. I also notice she's in a faction corporation and has been all the time.
What I sense is the likely vs. unlikely outcomes in venturing a risk. Another post said to get into these areas one must be in a good corp, or have a group of good friends sure to be on at the same time. A lot of argument was launched against that...as is here in Ms. Repose's post, however they all had advice which included "you and a few other people."
What seems to be missing is a method for hi sec people, where everyone starts, to bridge that gap into these other areas. It's not like they don't want to do it. It's more like - the way things are it would be foolish to try, unless you have a lot of money to throw at a trial and error process. But, at the same time it's said you don't make much money in hi sec (comparatively speaking) so it's unlikely people in her position HAVE the money to toss at a venture such as this.
To infer there are not parasitic, and victimizing people just waiting for someone like Serene to set foot in these areas so they can jump on her, and ransom her for all she's worth, then pop her and loot her ship is ridiculous on the face of it. And, so the finality with which she speaks is more than just the opinion of one person.
This then gives rise to suspicion. If someone really knows the game, then they would know the position she (and a whole lot of other players) are in with regard to this. Ignoring the facts of the situation and egging her on, or insulting her for not doing it can only be read as baiting for another victim - ipso facto.
An additional problem is not knowing what's out there and how to go about doing things out there. In this case ignorance can't be bliss. Not many people can say they weren't helped along in some way to make such a move. Maybe it was some friends. Maybe it was a corp that turned to be friends. However it was, it's a big leap to go into null sec with the intent of establishing oneself alone and on a meager, short-time player's bankroll.
People who want to truly see those regions developed will either take these things into consideration and come up with some remedy, insist CCP juggle the conditions by monkeying with game mechanics, will just cry about it in the forum here hoping to goad or shame somebody into doing it, or are just looking for someone to kill and rob for grins.
As Ms. Repose says so well, intelligent people aren't stupid. So...what's the "community" going to do about it besides saying, "Tough luck sucker"? I know only fools take a sucker's bet.
Good post, Ms. Repose. Perhaps the answer can be just as definite.
To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate. |
Kemuel
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 07:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Orien Ardent wrote:Zagdul, you're not getting what the OP is saying, Ptraci got it.
A good question would be, what should change in nullsec player attitude to bring industrial players to null. Please keep in mind that null is designed to be in conflict. It would be unreasonable to expect that no one should attack freighters or the like.
So, a question to OP, what should null look like (including player attitude) for industrial players to be interested in going there? Carebears need to harden up. Null is better (in my opinion) to build in and achieve what you want. You can just about do everything in null you can do in empire. In most cases, it's safer because you know who your enemies are. Honestly, I feel safer in nullsec than I do in empire. The problem is that there are too many people in the game who take on new pilots and tell them that 0.0 is this horrible disgusting palace and that evil people live there who's only purpose in life is to make your's, the new player, miserable. This is far from the truth and too many empire alliances/corps/institutions teach that null sec is horrible and that you shouldn't attempt to go if you have less than 20m SP and capitals and etc... I've _NEVER_ lived in empire. When I had < 2 m SP, I was in null sec. I advise this to all pilots.
So how is one supposed to actually get involved with null sec when you know no one and are more likely to be scammed than recruited?
One just has to read this forum to see the general attitude towards "carebears" and "pubbies" and know that unless they know someone already in nullsec the likelyhood of doing anything productive out there is close to nil. Doing fleet ops or nul sec was the reason I bought the stupid 5 dollar re-sub... sadly it was a waste :( |
Jenshae Chiroptera
159
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 07:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Teamosil wrote:IMO wormholes offer the most opportunity to build for somebody who doesn't want to be in a big alliance. ...
They have some big draw backs. POS is relatively easy to pop. You can't make an outpost. You need many people to have a hope of defending them If you have many people sites get depleted, they are all poor and can't afford to defend it.
Only way is with a lot of stress and a static link to another worm hole, then hope that you don't leave anyone in one when you close the link.
Ideas and CSM stuff No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safests. Lots of stick and they will leave. Half the problem is the players in null sec; we do not want to be there with you. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 07:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well, that's an interesting twist to the debate.
I wish to point somethting: i do dwell in hisec and never ventur outside of it, yet I am a destroyer. I'm here to blow up stuff and so I run missions as it's the safest, better assured way to blow stuff.
You love how ships go boom? I make ships go boom most of the time i spend logged in. Accept mission, jump in, boom, boom, jump out, jump in, loot, jump out, complete mission, repeat. Fun, fun fun, until it grows boring.
Compared to that, nullsec is a bloody chore, and on top of it is populated by people whose idea of having fun is effing other people completely as long as it haves no consequences.
And frankly, i don't feel like sharing anything with them. So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Ned Black
Driders
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
The major reason(s) I left 0.0 was because of the never ending blob fests, backstabbing politics and all that crap. That and the ever present:
GET IN FLEET YOU MAGGOTS!!!
I liked ratting, plexing and occational small scale PvP... I did have that for a time... many years ago... but then it turned into something else. Nice big fleets with some nice encouragement:
IF YOU ARE NOT IN FLEETS 25/7 AND GET ON AT LEAST 2 BILLION KILLSMAILS/HOUR YOU WILL BE KICKED FROM CORP!!!
Yes, I know I am overdoing it, but the main thing is that we suddenly had to be in fleets constantly and unless we managed to get on X amount of killmails we would be booted for being slackers... and to me that is simply no fun at all. So I left and went into WH space. Suddenly I did get pretty much that which I liked before. Not exactly, but still close enough.
Unfortunatly things havent changed much in 0.0except for the fact that the old BS blobs have turned into supercap blobs and the old super boring POS bashings have changed into even bigger PITA sov structure bashes... It really is horrible to contemplate but I actually prefered the old POS bashings to what is now.
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
152
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Have you ever considered the reason most people don't go into null or low sec is because you're out there?
Me? Little adorable me? :3 I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
What is with you guys?! Do you actually believe this nonsense?
When Hilmar and the rest of CCP designed Eve. They designed it with high-sec in mind.
Do you understand that? It's not like they're pressuring you into going into null-sec space! High-sec is needed! There are a lot of items and goods that come from null-sec and go to high sec and the trade is necessary to complete the balance of goods and trade in Eve Online.
Do you understand? Are you going to keep up with this nonsense?
High-sec and null-sec relations, and inter-relations between null-sec alliances are some of the most interesting things about this game! There's no debating that. It's all there is to it. |
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:stuff
Players aren't moving to null because the game doesn't entice them. It's got nothing to do with attitude. At the end of the day players will do whatever the game lets them do and that's a good thing. It's up to game design to channel activity in such ways as to lead players in the desired direction.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. |
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Most of this great taste, less filling argument going on between null sec players and high sec players can be boiled down to, "HUUUURRRRRR STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE, DUUUUUUURRRRRRR!"
Seriously, both high and null exist and serve a purpose. Both compliment each other and allow players to make choices about game play. Anyone on either side of this hurr-durr fest that can't deal with this simple fact and feels the need to rage about it needs to stop and contemplate their lives for a minute. The loser in any fight consols himself with a moral victory. Thus is the beginning of slave-morality. |
Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
113
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 08:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Please lock for no content. |
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