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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:08:00 -
[331] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Whether or not you consider time to be of any value is not my problem. Please feel free to go and work a 40 hour week for nothing if you feel that your time has no value.
If time has value, then so be it. For double the cost, you can spend 50% less of it. Thanks for confirming my position on this. I wasn't denying your position, I'm just saying that it's wrong. Paying for a training time boost is a crappy and lazy way of doing things, and as I said earlier, devalues everybody elses time that they've already put into the game.
I'll put it this way, assume that you, Salvos Rhoska, had spent 20 years working your way up a corporate ladder from the bottom, gathering skills and experience along the way, you get yourself a nice cushy well paid little number because of it. Then some 18 year old upstart works his way up the same ladder in a vastly reduced time and ends up in a equally or better paid position, not because he's any better qualified or brighter than than you, but because his daddy bought him his way in, how pissed would you be?
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Desivo Delta Visseroff
Cataclysmic Paradox
202
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:10:00 -
[332] - Quote
RL Human being live one life over the course of a finite amount of time, which moves in one constant direction... Ergo, Time has Value. |
Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:15:00 -
[333] - Quote
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:If I'm following your example, you are proposing that someone is given the option to spend $1,900 USD for the benefit of 1 million SP............. This is a troll right? I mean, if someone is soooo desperate to spend closing to two grand for @ half a month's worth of training!?!?!?!?!....... Well....Let's have at it.
Sometimes the best way to educate a rich person is to take all their money. So CCP, go ahead and implement this policy. Call it the 1Mill2K Platinum Package.
No, you got your numbers wrong. 50% faster, for double the cost. So: 24 PLEX per year, for 18 months worth training. vs 12 PLEX per year, 12 months worth training.
But I think the reality of it is its something only very few people will choose as an option for extended periods of time. I mean its already kind of funny when you look at the massive PLEX packages boldly onsale on CCPs site.
Mostly Id think its people who really really want that one skill that brings their build together, and are prepared to spend an additional PLEX for one or a few months so that they can get to where they feel they are "enjoying" the game again.
The change wouldn't really affect anyone elses game. I mean it makes next to zero difference to me if a couple of guys in my constellation are skilling 50% faster than me, and pumping in twice the PLEX to do so. SP are important, but they arent THAT important. 50% boost for them over a short period isn't going to somehow make me redundant or chopped liver in comparison.
Its just one more option for PLEX use, especially for players who would prefer a game strategy of developing one character, rather than a wide stable of alts. Furthermore its a good PLEX sink, and a CCP cash faucet.
Its really not a big deal, though I do understand the sentimental notions of some Vets regarding how many years they have played. But anyone boosting would actually be funding the game at twice the rate those Vets ever did. Its equitable for everyone. ------------ |
Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:23:00 -
[334] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I'll put it this way, assume that you, Salvos Rhoska, had spent 20 years working your way up a corporate ladder from the bottom, gathering skills and experience along the way, you get yourself a nice cushy well paid little number because of it. Then some 18 year old upstart works his way up the same ladder in a vastly reduced time and ends up in a equally or better paid position, not because he's any better qualified or brighter than than you, but because his daddy bought him his way in, how pissed would you be?
Are you saying you are pissed your daddy doesn't pay your gametime? :D *cough*
But let's be serious here.
Nobody had the option before, after the change, everyone has the option. You can then throw all the money you didn't spend back then, into it afterwards, if you wish.
Its still an equal sandbox. Just with an additional option. You can still continue to play at the same rate as before, without daddy having to pay. ------------ |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omen Industries -Entropy-
263
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:33:00 -
[335] - Quote
you are not looking for pay to win you are looking for simple guides to show ppl how to fit ships in different ranks of skills.
There is some sick sense of accomplishment improving your fit and skills and see your stats growing as days passes. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:37:00 -
[336] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Nobody had the option before, after the change, everyone has the option. You can then throw all the money you didn't spend back then, into it afterwards, if you wish.
Its still an equal sandbox. Just with an additional option.
You can still continue to play at the same rate as before, without daddy having to pay, or, if you wish, use your existing pool of PLEX in a different fashion than before. Instead of training your alt on that account for a month, instead put it into boosting your main for a month, for example.
There is nothing "lazy" about it, because it commensurately doubles your costs.
Anyways, all of this is academic. This is just a random thread thrown up for discussion. Not like CCP have announced any even cursory intent to do anything as outlined here. (Though personally, I think its inevitable)
How does paying CCP for an advantage create an equal sandbox?
Plex for Aur to buy vanity items is fine, it has no effect on the sandbox other than cosmetics, plex for multiple character training likewise; as both characters train at the same rate as one belonging to a player who doesn't use it, it is merely an alternative to having 2 accounts. No advantage is gained at the expense of another player.
Any attempts by CCP to offer advantages for cash will not go down well with the community at large, even theoretical discussion of it as with the Greed is Good leak of 2011 causes great discomfort amongst Eve players in general.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20536
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:39:00 -
[337] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Its still an equal sandbox. Just with an additional option. No. The mere fact that some characters are subject to different rules than others inherently makes it unequal. The fact that this inequality is tied to cash-based assets only serves to extend the inequality to a meta-gaming level as well.
Quote:There is nothing "lazy" about it, because it commensurately doubles your costs. It's incredibly lazy because it fails to take into account numerous details about proper game balancing, player behaviour, and real-world constraints, and just screams of a GÇ£wohoo, let's extract the cash and runGÇ¥ mentality. All that wile being unnecessary, solving nothing, and creating a swath of problems. It's also lazy because it lets you skip over mechanics you don't like.
It invents a problem just to monetise its thoroughly flawed solution. Design doesn't get any lazier than that, and exploiting broken mechanics is about as lazy as playing a game gets. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
608
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:44:00 -
[338] - Quote
Salvos, I get that you enjoy the forum pvp, that's fine, but this is a stupid one dude.
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1336
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:49:00 -
[339] - Quote
Logic flaw: If buying a character is the same as buying SP, why do some of you so desperately wish to buy SP?
Seeing as the chief argument for such a change is "it's literally the same thing as buying a character," why don't you lot quit your whining and buy a character?
Also, this thread is terrible. |
Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:53:00 -
[340] - Quote
As I said, kneejerk reactions.
And yet activity which amounts to the same relative result (with lack of control over character name and history) is happening in Bazaar everyday.
It will happen, sooner or later. And though I understand, really I do, why you resist it, you are actually making all the wrong arguments. I understand WHY you make them, but I also understand why they arent actually relevant.
Ill return to the topic when CCP eventually and invariably, suggests something similar, and can discuss it with you then. Its just a matter of time (no pun intended to topic). ------------ |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:56:00 -
[341] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:As I said, kneejerk reactions.
And yet activity which amounts to the same relative result (with lack of control over character name and history) is happening in Bazaar everyday.
It will happen, sooner or later. And though I understand, really I do, why you resist it, you are actually making all the wrong arguments. I understand WHY you make them, but I also understand why they arent actually relevant.
Ill return to the topic when CCP eventually and invariably, suggests something similar, and can discuss it with you then. Its just a matter of time (no pun intended to topic). Nope, it won't, because CCP have already seen what happens when they try to do things similar to what you suggest. They're not dumb enough to crap all over their players in that manner again.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20537
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Posted - 2014.04.07 21:58:00 -
[342] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:As I said, kneejerk reactions. If by GÇ£kneejerkGÇ¥ you mean GÇ£extensively discussed and hashed-through reactions with all the angles coveredGÇ¥, then yes.
That is unless you're referring to the uninspired and poorly though-through idea that introducing training booster would somehow help new players GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with older ones GÇö a kneejerk reaction to a perceived problem that, on closer inspection, doesn't actually exist in the game.
Quote:And yet activity which amounts to the same relative result (with lack of control over character name and history) is happening in Bazaar everyday. Not really, no. The bazaar does not make time run faster for some than for others, and definitely does not make payments in any way affect the progression of characters.
Quote:It will happen, sooner or later. Why would it? CCP already accidentally suggested something slightly similar, but much more limited, and were slapped in the face hard until they got the point that it would break the game and make them lose more money than they ever could hope to gain from it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:00:00 -
[343] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:]Nope, it won't, because CCP have already seen what happens when they try to do things similar to what you suggest. They're not dumb enough to crap all over their players in that manner again.
Then explain the starter pack accelerators.
Jonah, its inevitable. Sooner or later, SP accumalation will be ramped up to increase player retention. Or do you really think new players will enter the game against 20yr vets?
@Tippia: Ill see you when it happens :) Thread saved in my archive for that day. ------------ |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1336
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:03:00 -
[344] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Then explain the starter pack accelerators. It's much easier to reel in a fish once it's hooked. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:11:00 -
[345] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Nope, it won't, because CCP have already seen what happens when they try to do things similar to what you suggest. They're not dumb enough to crap all over their players in that manner again. Then explain the starter pack accelerators. An incentive for new accounts, they are only usable on new accounts, completely cease to function after 35 days, offer a very limited boost, and don't cost a plex.
Quote:Jonah, its inevitable. Sooner or later, SP accumalation will be ramped up to increase player retention. Or do you really think new players will enter the game against 20yr vets? They're still entering the game when there are 10+ year vets, so yes I think that they will.
Player retention is important, luckily most of it happens because people get Eve, not because CCP fundamentally changes the game to encourage it.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
608
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:15:00 -
[346] - Quote
In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:16:00 -
[347] - Quote
There will be a day when CCP will milk this game for all the money it can make, they will sell sp, they will do many of the things people rage about. Wether the game will still be relevant or not is in question. Every game has a life cycle, and eve although doing well relies a lot on alts, and alts of alts, which really is not a good foundation to base all your marketing on (power of 2) (buddy invites) (return a friend) all aimed at alts |
Ms Kat
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:17:00 -
[348] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced.
Stuff can I have?
You wont last a month without eve you will be back |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:17:00 -
[349] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:In case ccp are actually reading this:, it's a **** idea. I'd leave in a heartbeat if something like this is introduced. Ditto, if I wanted to play a P2W game I would. I still haven't resubbed 2 accounts that I unsubbed over the Incarna mess, and probably never will.
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Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:18:00 -
[350] - Quote
When I said explain the accelerators, I didnt mean what they are. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant as a SP multiplying purchaseable element that does everything you are so against it doing.
As to P2W, its not really valid to say that a guy who spent two months away from EVE while his toons trained at conventional rate is somehow losing out to a guy who alterrnsatively spent those same two months away from EVE getting more SP cos he invested more resources. Its the same amount of time, but one guy invested more PLEX than the other. Its not really anymore P2W than that.
Anyways, you say they wont. I say they will. Only time can tell who is right on this one. ------------ |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20538
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:18:00 -
[351] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Then explain the starter pack accelerators. You mean the ones that don't arbitrarily alter the game mechanics just because you pay for it; which are of very limited use; which are better used by new players as a trade item than as a training item (to let old players benefit from them); and which provide a very minute boost?
They are quite easily explained by the fact that they do almost nothing of what this silly proposal does.
Quote:Or do you really think new players will enter the game against 20yr vets? Why not? They're not at any particular disadvantage compared to if they went up against 2GÇô3 year vets. If it was to happen for that reason, it would have happened in 2006. It didn't happen then or in 2010.
Quote:Ill see you when it happens You're four years late to the party. It has already happened. It already didn't play out the way you think it would. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17711
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:24:00 -
[352] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:When I said explain the accelerators, I didnt mean what they are. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant as a SP multiplying purchaseable element that does everything you are so against it doing.
Anyways, you say they wont. I say they will. Only time can tell who is right on this one. Which bit about them being only applicable to new characters and extremely time limited did you miss? Those 2 things make them very very different from what you propose. They aren't directly purchasable outside of the game, you can't arbitrarily give CCP cash and receive one, you have to purchase them as part of a starter pack, or in game via the market.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5113
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:24:00 -
[353] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Sooner or later, SP accumalation will be ramped up to increase player retention. Or do you really think new players will enter the game against 20yr vets?
I'll say this. There has been a ton of ideas over the years that people have stuck their fingers in their ears or buried their heads in the sand because 'that'll never happen, you doofus'. Know what, though? They happened.
I believe SP for ISK or PLEX or your first born is not outside the realm of possibility at all. Why not have an open discussion now as opposed a bunch of butt hurt mega-threads later? I understand that name calling and clever put downs is the standard response in this type of thread, but how has that worked out historically?
Think-tank it.
Assume it will happen and come to some consensus as to how it should best be approached. Better than having no input after it's already implemented, right?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Salvos Rhoska
1021
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:25:00 -
[354] - Quote
Still misusing the term "game mechanics" and recycling the same retired, irrelevant rhetoric which has already been rebutted.
Whatever Tippia. You know already what I think of you and your opinions.
Time will tell, and I will laugh when you are invariably shown to be wrong, as you always are. ------------ |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1337
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:28:00 -
[355] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: Assume it will happen and come to some consensus as to how it should best be approached.
That is the single worst argument I've seen on these boards in a looooong while.
On the other hand: Assuming hisec will be removed, let's come to some consensus on how that should best be approached. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20539
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:32:00 -
[356] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Still misusing the term "game mechanics" and recycling the same retired, irrelevant rhetoric which has already been rebutted. Not really, no. Just because you couldn't come up with and articulate a counter-argument doesn't mean any of what I've said is irrelevant, rhetorics, or rebutted. Nor does it mean I'm misusing any of the terms involved. All it means is that all you have to offer is baseless claims and fallacies.
Quote:You know already what I think of you and your opinions. Impeccable, presumably, since you have to adopt all these evasion strategies to try to at least give the appearance of actually presenting something that could be confused with a proper argument.
Quote:Time will tell, and I will laugh when you are invariably shown to be wrong, as you always are. Again, you're four years late to the party. I was right as I always am before you even failed to present an argument, courtesy of CCP's decision on the matter. History has already proven you wrong. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5114
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:33:00 -
[357] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Assume it will happen and come to some consensus as to how it should best be approached.
That is the single worst argument I've seen on these boards in a looooong while. On the other hand: Assuming hisec will be removed, let's come to com some consensus on how that should be best approached.
Assuming the world will end in a blaze of asteroidal fire is stupid as well. But think tanks are working out the logistics for it. That's what they are for. Solutions to unlikely possibilities. Next time don't misquote. Just makes you look dumb.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
262
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:38:00 -
[358] - Quote
How can getting skill points faster be considered "pay to win"?
Veterans tell new players that skill points don't really matter. They'll claim that since people have their skill points spread out in different areas, they'll be deficient in some. Meaning that a new player can potentially beat a veteran if they have their skill points in the right spots.
So which is it? Do skill points equal winning or not? If skill points isn't "winning", then getting skill points faster isn't "pay to win". If skill points is "winning", then how is a new player expected to want to partake in an environment where he's not allowed to "win" for years? Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20539
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:41:00 -
[359] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:How can getting skill points faster be considered "pay to win"? Because you're paying to not be affected by the same game-mechanical limits everyone else has to abide by.
The skill point part is purely incidental; it's getting them faster than through regular gameplay that is the problem. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1337
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Posted - 2014.04.07 22:45:00 -
[360] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: Assume it will happen and come to some consensus as to how it should best be approached.
That is the single worst argument I've seen on these boards in a looooong while. On the other hand: Assuming hisec will be removed, let's come to com some consensus on how that should be best approached. Assuming the world will end in a blaze of asteroidal fire is stupid as well. But think tanks are working out the logistics for it. That's what they are for. Poor analogy. Asteroids are a natural phenomenon outside of human control. The topic at hand isn't. A better anaology would be:
Assume a flat tax will happen, lets come to some consensus as to how it should best be approached.
The difference between the asteroid example and the flat tax example is that one is a natural phenomenon that is inherently uncontrollable and the other is a policy change (like "Pay to win") that is very much in someone's control.
Further, that frame of discussion encourages that particular policy in the public mind. You change the tone of the discussion from "Should we do X" to "How should we do X" implying that X will be done regardless. It is a manipulative tactic used by shills and demagogues on all sides of the media, and people should always be called out for it.
Mr Epeen wrote: Solutions to unlikely possibilities. Next time don't misquote. Just makes you look dumb. Mr Epeen I quoted you verbatim using the "quote" function. By definition, that isn't a misquote. Nice try though. |
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