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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here?
Yes, she does. And unintelligibly so, repeatedly. There is never any heads or tails to it.
No honesty or integrity either.
You are better off just flat out ignoring her posts. I do. ------------ |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
596
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:53:00 -
[122] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote: Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here?
You are in fact missing something here.
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4872
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:55:00 -
[123] - Quote
Winning at EVE is when you successfully quit & never return, so sure, pay CCP a bunch of money to stop playing I guess. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2569
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:58:00 -
[124] - Quote
I think the OP has the wording a little wrong. The term is "It pays to win" when it comes to Eve. Ask the null sec cartel directors. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4872
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:00:00 -
[125] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Ask the null sec cartel directors.
Still riding on that pony? This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
596
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:00:00 -
[126] - Quote
Are you stalking goons?! Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20510
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:00:00 -
[127] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here? You're really missing something: you're asking for a method to skip game mechanics you don't like. That is exactly why what you're asking for is a very bad idea.
Quote:You can skip training time via character bazaar? You can spawn isk via plex Nope. The bazaar does not skip training time; PLEX does not spawn ISK. That is why they work. The problem here is that you don't understand how the game works and you think of GÇ£solutionsGÇ¥ to problems that don't exist, and in doing so create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined.
Quote:The other 2 don't apply to this debate about benefits from external cash. They all apply: they are all examples of why it's a very bad idea to let players arbitrarily skip game mechanics just because they pay for it.
Quote:What do you mean can't and wont? I mean can't and won't. New players will not have the cash, the investment, the familiarity with mechanics, the long-term vision, the attributes, or the experience to make good use of the faster training. All that will happen is that they make more mistakes faster. Meanwhile, older players who do have all that will use this to further the SP gap between them and new players; to spam new special-purpose alts; and to generally assure that they get every edge there is to get. You are creating the exact problem the solution is meant to solve because you're trying to fix a problem that the game has already solved for you.
New players are not in a position to benefit from this change; old players are. Even new players somehow were[/-¦] able to do so, all that would happen is that they maintain the status quo. So they can't and they won't benefit everyone GÇö only the old.
Again: if you want to train faster, ask CCP to make training faster. At least then, you know it [i]will benefit everyone and it won't skip any game mechanics in the process, which is a huge plus. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:04:00 -
[128] - Quote
Tippia wrote:create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined.
Such as? ------------ |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4872
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:05:00 -
[129] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Are you stalking goons?!
He's angry about a bunch of changes to highsec that have happened in the past 6 months & believes it's some nullsec-CCP conspiracy directly targetting him, so he's come up with a second conspiracy to make his first conspiracy kind of make sense to him & anyone stupid enough to take his word for it. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4876
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:06:00 -
[130] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined. Such as?
Perhaps you should begin with the learning of how things actually work first. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
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Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined. Such as? Perhaps you should begin with the learning of how things actually work first.
Its a simple question for elaboration. What's wrong? Can't answer it?
I know how things work. I don't know what "vastly bigger problems" she is imagining. I'm not a mind-reader. Its normal to ask people to elaborate when they make such claims. ------------ |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
596
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:15:00 -
[132] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined. Such as? The ones she listed I'm the post you quoted Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:16:00 -
[133] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined. Such as? The ones she listed I'm the post you quoted
She didn't list any "vastly bigger problems" in the post I quoted.
Nor are you Tippia. Or are you? My question was addressed to her, specifically. ------------ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20510
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:16:00 -
[134] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Such as? Perhaps you should begin with the learning of how things actually work first. GǪalso how to read, since the problems are described in the post he quoted.
Mallak Azaria wrote:He's angry about a bunch of changes to highsec that have happened in the past 6 months & believes it's some nullsec-CCP conspiracy directly targetting him, so he's come up with a second conspiracy to make his first conspiracy kind of make sense to him & anyone stupid enough to take his word for it. Oh, it's not just the past 6 months. It's everything that has happened since he started playing pretty much. If it benefits highsec, it's nullsec plot to destroy it; if it doesn't affect highsec, it's a nullsec plot to destroy it; on the exceedingly rare occasions that a minute part of highsec is negatively affected in some marginal way, it's proof positive that nullsec is definitely plotting to destroy highsec. Somehow. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:17:00 -
[135] - Quote
So, what are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? ------------ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20513
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:17:00 -
[136] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:So, what are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? Learn to read. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3172
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:18:00 -
[137] - Quote
Now, trolling me, that I can understand. Im quick to anger and I take bait easily.
But to troll Tippia? That would be a hiding to nothing Id imagine. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:20:00 -
[138] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:So, what are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? Learn to read.
I can read that. It says "Learn to read".
It would seem its you who needs to learn to read, since you did not answer the question.
What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to?
List them here. ------------ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20513
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:20:00 -
[139] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? Learn to read. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
596
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:24:00 -
[140] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:So, what are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? Learn to read. I can read that. It says "Learn to read". It would seem its you who needs to learn to read, since you did not answer the question. What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? List them here. Why would anyone do this for you, it's a redundant question that doesn't need answering. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:26:00 -
[141] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to? Learn to read.
Those are fail reasons, and not "problems" whatsoever.
You can still skill at the normal rate. Nothing stops you from doing so.
If someone uses RL money or a PLEX to skill faster, then they are expending an additional resource to do so.
No problem there.
Doesn't affect Bazaar prices either, because someone who wants to fast train a character will end up paying more for that, than someone who does so at a vanilla rate.
"Ecology"... lol.
I pity you, Tippia. Really, I do. Perhaps you are considered witty or smart in your small circles, but you wouldn't stand a second in the ones I frequent. Frankly, its embarrassing reading your dilettante attempts at constructing arguments, and then repeatedly falling back on Schopenhauer discursive tricks, not because its convenient, but because you genuinely don't know any better or are capable of an actual debate. ------------ |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20513
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:28:00 -
[142] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Those are fail reasons, and not "problems" whatsoever. How so?
Quote:You can still skill at the normal rate. Nothing stops you from doing so. Again: GÇ£you don't have to use itGÇ¥ is the most feeble of excuses that always seep out whenever people try to justify wanting to break the mechanics. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Organic Lager
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
29
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:30:00 -
[143] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Organic Lager wrote:Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here? You're really missing something: you're asking for a method to skip game mechanics you don't like. That is exactly why what you're asking for is a very bad idea. Quote:You can skip training time via character bazaar? You can spawn isk via plex Nope. The bazaar does not skip training time; PLEX does not spawn ISK. That is why they work. The problem here is that you don't understand how the game works and you think of GÇ£solutionsGÇ¥ to problems that don't exist, and in doing so create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined. Quote:The other 2 don't apply to this debate about benefits from external cash. They all apply: they are all examples of why it's a very bad idea to let players arbitrarily skip game mechanics just because they pay for it. Quote:What do you mean can't and wont? I mean can't and won't. New players will not have the cash, the investment, the familiarity with mechanics, the long-term vision, the attributes, or the experience to make good use of the faster training. All that will happen is that they make more mistakes faster. Meanwhile, older players who do have all that will use this to further the SP gap between them and new players; to spam new special-purpose alts; and to generally assure that they get every edge there is to get. You are creating the exact problem the solution is meant to solve because you're trying to fix a problem that the game has already solved for you. New players are not in a position to benefit from this change; old players are. Even new players somehow were able to do so, all that would happen is that they maintain the status quo. So they can't and they won't benefit everyone GÇö only the old. Again: if you want to train faster, ask CCP to make training faster. At least then, you know it will benefit everyone and it won't skip any game mechanics in the process, which is a huge plus.
Sorry i can't crop the post better due to being on an iphone.
If i don't want to earn isk and buy a plex to sell, have i not skipped the isk generation mechanic? If i spend isk to buy a character already loaded with sp, have i not skipped the sp generation mechanic? I get someone had to earn the sp and isk but i can still pay to skip it. If you are worried about devaluation of characters don't be because the cost of 1 month at 3x sp is the cost (or more) of 3 months at 1x sp, balance.
The other 2 don't apply because i'm not asking for a new mechanic. A 15 minute 80% damage reduction for $10 would fubar the game. Allowing a player to get to l5 skills that thousands already have changes nothing.
Once again with new and old players it's relative. I don't see how offering a way to speed up sp gives an advantage to one over the other? If a vet wants to pay and support a specialty alt why punish them with a 3 month training queue? If a new player will make a mistake 3 months down the road why not let them make it 1 month down the road instead?
I don't want faster sp, i am very happy with the pace and have no interest in paying with usd for what i'm proposing. I'm just saying if someone would like to pay to speed up sp let them and profit. The profits will benefit me. |
Bunnie Hop
529
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:32:00 -
[144] - Quote
I have quit every game I tried that had a pay to win mechanic. It is for lazy developers and even lazier players and completely takes away any sense of achievement from a game. |
Salvos Rhoska
1019
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:33:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Those are fail reasons, and not "problems" whatsoever. How so?
Please, are you joking?
You genuinely can't grasp that if someone expends RL money or PLEX for accelerated SP, then he is spending MORE than someone who is skilling conventionally?
It doesn't "break" any mechanic. Do you not even know what "mechanic" means, in terms of game design? Apparently you don't.
Makes no difference to you, or me, whatsoever, if some third guy spends an additional PLEX or dollars per month for some % of accelerated training. No difference AT ALL.
It makes no difference to anyone else in the game, what rate someone who spends money or PLEX on an accelerated rate, does.
If you don't want to buy it, then don't. You can continue skilling at the same rate you always have. If some people expend an additional PLEX per month for an accelerated rate, or additional currency in addition to gametime, so what?
Doesn't cause a problem in Bazaar either, because any character that is "grown" for sale through an accelerated SP rate, also incurs more costs in its production. So it will never be cheaper than a vanilla grown toon that takes longer.
This is really elementary stuff that anyone with a modicum of objective perspective and capacity to fathom a simple abstract model and its repercussions, can easily comprehend. ------------ |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
5733
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:35:00 -
[146] - Quote
To answer the main question, no, EVE should not ever be pay to win nor is it like that now. PLEX and the character bazaar aren't pay to win, both are "pay for someone else to grind for you" but offer no advantage that anyone who isn't paying can't get.
Other than game time, the only things you should be able to get for real life money form EVE are monocles and ships skins and the like. The people telling y'all that this is a bad idea aren't anti-progress, they are anti "lets kill what makes EVE great".
Say no to pay to win. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
598
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:36:00 -
[147] - Quote
Salvos, why are you arguing this one?
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼ -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively. Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
5734
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:39:00 -
[148] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:I have quit every game I tried that had a pay to win mechanic. It is for lazy developers and even lazier players and completely takes away any sense of achievement from a game.
Exactly, it destroys the value of the time you spend acquiring something.
The day i finished my 1st BS skill to 5 (which unlocked a lot of different game play possibilities like marauders and Black ops ect) was very memorable, yet some people want to diminish that in some weird bid to get people who aren't suited to playing EVE online in the 1st place to subscribe to the game. Or so they say, because honestly it smacks of "I'm tired of training and want it now' thinking for themselves.
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3174
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:39:00 -
[149] - Quote
Because like PLEXing your account, the thing you are wanting to pay for does not appear out of nowhere
What I mean by this;
No one "plays for free" as the PLEX is payed for by someone
No one learns skills faster (with the exception of the extremely limited item) as the character on the bizairre (intentional) was trained at the same speed as everyone else.
If you are a lazyball and buy a character instead of training and learning, well thats your lookout, but SOMEONE trained that character, and went to the effort of doing it. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20514
|
Posted - 2014.04.07 15:42:00 -
[150] - Quote
Organic Lager wrote:If i don't want to earn isk and buy a plex to sell, have i not skipped the isk generation mechanic? No. The ISK you're getting is generated in the normal way, by spending time collecting it through the regular in-game activities that accrue ISK. You are simply trading your (future) time against time they've spent in the past. PLEX don't create any ISK whatsoever.
Quote:If i spend isk to buy a character already loaded with sp, have i not skipped the sp generation mechanic? No. The SP you're getting has been generated in the normal way, by spending time and ISK putting skills into a queue and waiting for them to complete. If you want 6 years worth of SP, it took 6 years to create them. You are also only ever getting old decisions GÇö not new ones. You are trading ISK to be spent in the future against ISK and time that has been spent in the past. The bazaar does not create any SP whatsoever.
Quote:The other 2 don't apply because i'm not asking for a new mechanic. Yes you are. You're asking for a mechanic that skips other mechanics GÇö specifically the skill training and attribute mechanics GÇö and to be able to pay for the privilege of not having those mechanics apply to you the way they do to everyone else. The other two apply for the same reason: because they are examples of paying to not have mechanics apply to you the way they do to everyone else.
The reason you don't feel that they apply is because the game breaking nature is so readily apparent in them, but fundamentally, it's the exact same kind of game breakage that you're asking for, and what you're asking for is very bad for the exact same reasons why those ideas are bad.
Quote:Once again with new and old players it's relative. I don't see how offering a way to speed up sp gives an advantage to one over the other? Because one can take advantage of it and the other cannot. Be it because of lack of knowledge or funding or support structure, new players will only ever be able to GÇ£benefitGÇ¥ in the sense that they maintain the status quo, whereas old players GÇö who don't lack any of those GÇö will be able to push ahead in many new and interesting ways (that break the game).
Quote:I don't want faster sp, i am very happy with the pace and have no interest in paying with usd for what i'm proposing. I'm just saying if someone would like to pay to speed up sp let them and profit. The profits will benefit me. Ok, fine. Not you specifically then. The answer is still the same: if (generic) you want to train faster, ask CCP to make training faster; don't ask them to allow people to skip game mechanics for cash because that inherently breaks the game GÇö it is, after all, the whole point of the suggestion. And no, the GÇ£profitsGÇ¥ will not benefit you (unless you wish to explain how draining the game of players and forcing CCP to downsize and/or become an EA subsidiary benefits anyone). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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