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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Maeltstome
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
430
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.
I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.
I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:
Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?
Without going into too much detail, it seems like it might be worth seriously considering. Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.
I've been playing since 2006'ish and I want to see a new influx of players or a way for newer players to accelerate themselfs to keep interest in the game. I've spent years training skills and it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. All i had to do was auto renew a subscription. What i've DONE in Eve feels like an accomplishment.
Perhaps offering 1 months subscription cost for 1 months worth of skillpoints (based on char stats) into your unassigned pool would be a possible way to ensure that old players got the same number of SP for every penny/cent they spent as a new player does. None of this makes new players better at the game or more financially sound... just gives them access to more ships/bonuses/market-opportunities. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
556
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
hmmm
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-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively.
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
Affirmative.
3922
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.
I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.
I stopped reading there, mainly because your friend is a moron.
A 1 week old character can fly a properly fitted ship for what is he wants to do.
Even if you could dump over 5k dollar into the game and buy a blinged out Navy Raven, you will still be ganked. Because you can not buy knowledge and actual skills (not skillpoints).
Also, your friend is a moron in terms of that he can already dump his money in game and buy a character with good skillpoints, if he does, let me know what the name is so I can await the big loss because your friend doesn't know HOW to use the skillpoints.
0/10
p.s. Next time, just say YOU want P2W and don't hide behind imaginary friends
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with.
Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
Affirmative.
3922
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:
I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:
Wait...whut?
You have obviously no idea what you are talking about.
I've seen less then 2 month olds get kills (or made kills possible) as good as veterans do.
Hell, just last month I was dueling with a new player (as in under 1 month old) that knew what he was doing with his ship.
He couldn't hit me (because of the tracks and high speed orbit) but his tank was too big for my ship to break, so in the end...we had to call it a draw as if it wasn't for downtimes and depletion of ammo (neither was using lasers) we would have still been there in the exact same situation.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with.
Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
455
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
While I'm not totally against the idea to pay to "catch up" with characters created at launch:
You can kinda already do that by buying an old character on the bazaar.
And you do overestimate the amount of gain skill points bring. You can get enough skill points in 3 months of focussed training to decently pilot any specific sub-capital ship. While you might get a bit more performance with a couple more lvl 5 skills, that's usually not that important, unless you are fighting someone in the same ship. But in a fight between different ships, the ship strengths are more important than skill points. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17678
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
I can give you one good reason why a Pay 2 Win Eve will never work.
A newbie with a 30 million SP character and the ships to go with them is still a newbie.
@Ralph King-Griffin gief Indy gif.. MINE.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
560
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
what's particularly poignant about that story is the scam afterwards was much worse than the gank, and infinitely easier to avoid.
tell you what john, ill trade you this, this and ill raise you this
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf In Doubt....Do....Excessively.
Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼a«£¦¬¦P¦¬a«£Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼Gû¼
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Chad Ramsbottom
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships..
If he doesn't understand why making that complaint makes him stupid, this game isn't for him. |
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
533
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
EVE is not for everyone, too bad OP still thinks it's for him and makes posts like this. |
Zanzbar
The Elysian Knights
League of Infamy
200
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
anybody have a link to that evenews24 story about the guy who purchsed a moros pilot after only a month and tried to take on a nyx solo with it? its one of my favorite examples how money and skillpoints cant buy you what you gain from actual experiance. |
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Praxis Ginimic
Dead Men Rising
Ushra'Khan
784
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Maeltstome wrote:A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.
I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships. I stopped reading there, mainly because your friend is a moron. A 1 week old character can fly a properly fitted ship for what is he wants to do. Even if you could dump over 5k dollar into the game and buy a blinged out Navy Raven, you will still be ganked. Because you can not buy knowledge and actual skills (not skillpoints). Also, your friend is a moron in terms of that he can already dump his money in game and buy a character with good skillpoints, if he does, let me know what the name is so I can await the big loss because your friend doesn't know HOW to use the skillpoints. 0/10 p.s. Next time, just say YOU want P2W and don't hide behind imaginary friends
That |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5091
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Part of the idea behind the "wait" to use "better" and more expensive equipment is that a newbie must first learn how to properly use the "cheaper"/"crappier" equipment effectively. In other words... newbies are being forced (or "challenged") to use their noggins to compensate for their lacking skills and/or wealth.
This helps immensely later on when they gain access to their "powerful" ships and equipment... because by this point they should have learned that while they can stomp another newbie one on one... they will DIAF against 5+ of them... and that no amount of raw skillpoints or "sexy stats" are going to save them against superior numbers and/or "tactics."
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gregor Parud
409
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
OP needs his assets removed by his CEO, awoxed, kicked from his corp, have all his alts outed, have his JC destroyed and camped into a station without a medical till he's down to 900k SP.
We as a community need to make this happen, for the betterment of the game. |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
Affirmative.
3923
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Posted - 2014.04.03 21:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thanks Jonah.
I was wondering how not to break forum rules regarding a killboard link about Mr. Raven, totally forgot about the mittani post.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with.
Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
Affirmative.
3923
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 21:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:OP needs his assets removed by his CEO, awoxed, kicked from his corp, have all his alts outed, have his JC destroyed and camped into a station without a medical till he's down to 900k SP.
We as a community need to make this happen, for the betterment of the game.
Although I usually like to give new players some slack and hope they improve...sometimes people need to learn the hard way.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with.
Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17683
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Posted - 2014.04.03 21:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Thanks Jonah. I was wondering how not to break forum rules regarding a killboard link about Mr. Raven, totally forgot about the mittani post.
So much purple on that ship, it was a loot pi+¦ata waiting to happen.
P2W won't work in Eve, because we won't let it.
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Xylem Viliana
Protomonolithic
175
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Posted - 2014.04.03 22:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Errr pay to win in eve...
Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar
Is this not basically p2w? |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
Affirmative.
3925
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Posted - 2014.04.03 22:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xylem Viliana wrote:Errr pay to win in eve...
Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar
Is this not basically p2w?
Naah, it's Pay 2 Expensive loss with foolish fit.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with.
Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Xylem Viliana
Protomonolithic
175
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 23:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Xylem Viliana wrote:Errr pay to win in eve...
Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar
Is this not basically p2w? Naah, it's Pay 2 Expensive loss with foolish fit.
Meh same difference really. Buy SP boosts or buy a premade char. Always gonna end in stupid losses. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2450
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 23:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paid cheating is a cancer in gaming.
EVE's pretty good on this - player knowledge is so much more important than character power or character resources that anyone that engages in RMT (either sanctioned RMT through massive purchases of PLEX or illicit RMT) ends up as a hilarious lossmail. But I've left other MMOs in the past over the levels of paid cheating in them and the way the game was shaped around pushing more and more microtransactions.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5158
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Posted - 2014.04.04 00:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
Xylem Viliana wrote:Errr pay to win in eve...
Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar
Is this not basically p2w?
That provides exactly what the OP is after: SP for ISK.
The OP also needs to learn more about what it takes to get kills in EVE Online before suggesting that a few-days-old character can't get kills. There was a famous video about two pilots taking day-old characters in Rifters out to Providence and having a hell of a time. Sadly I don't have it bookmarked, nor can I find it :\
edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5158
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Posted - 2014.04.04 00:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Here's a video of day-old pilots in a fleet heading out to have some fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-D_TwtiJ
And here is a 8yo girl being a pirate (flying a punisher, nothing special): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guNrJ5hj0aQ
And here is another example of EVE being very Pay 2 Win unfriendly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GEp387tXp8
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Seraphi Nephalis
Seraphi Nephalis Corporation
3
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Posted - 2014.04.04 00:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.
I would much prefer a system that augmented the SP system by awarding you bonus SP based on what your pilot in the game is actually doing. Not sure how it could be implemented, since there are so many different things that can be done in EVE.
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
325
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Posted - 2014.04.04 01:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Xylem Viliana wrote:Errr pay to win in eve...
Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar
Is this not basically p2w? That provides exactly what the OP is after: SP for ISK. The OP also needs to learn more about what it takes to get kills in EVE Online before suggesting that a few-days-old character can't get kills. There was a famous video about two pilots taking day-old characters in Rifters out to Providence and having a hell of a time. Sadly I don't have it bookmarked, nor can I find it :\ edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.
I keep some favorites in my in-game profile including that one.
Drat, for some reason the other links I had in my profile are missing from my profile in evegate, hopefully they show up in game, but I don't have time to update my client before my ship leaves. :(
Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö
I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
5091
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Posted - 2014.04.04 01:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Seraphi Nephalis wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.
I would much prefer a system that augmented the SP system by awarding you bonus SP based on what your pilot in the game is actually doing. Not sure how it could be implemented, since there are so many different things that can be done in EVE.
This was actually part of the game early in its life. What happened was...
- it discouraged activities that were not "activity based."
Some examples;
--- a logistics officer in a corporation would not be training their combat skills as fast as "rookies" would be because they can't shoot and haul stuff at the same time... even though their work is often more important.
--- a diplomat who deals with different people all day usually doesn't have time to go out and do anything "active." And no one would want to replace him/her because it would require time that they can better spend grinding SP.
- it encouraged "power grinding" versus actually playing the game. Because which will bring you greater guaranteed benefits; Mindlessly farming NPCs for more SP and ISK? Experimenting with a new ship setup that may or may not work? Roaming around aimlessly for a PvP fight that may or may not happen?
- players abused it... badly.
For example; if 2 players wanted high gunnery and active tank skills they would both set their ships up to perma-tank and not deal enough damage to break each others tank... then they would warp out to a safe-spot, aggress each other, and then go afk for a couple hours. Rinse an repeat for all skills.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
5158
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Posted - 2014.04.04 01:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
That's why I can't find it on YouTube: it's not on YouTube 
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
504
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Posted - 2014.04.04 01:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far.
If you can't do the math to know that this isn't even remotely true, maybe Eve isn't the game for you? I mean, it's barely even arithmetic... maybe try a shooter instead? Those don't really require the ability to add or multiply, and I hear Dust is pretty decent. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity.
The Kadeshi
431
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Posted - 2014.04.04 11:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ooofft, lots of hate, personal attacks, extreme edge case scenarios etc. - I knew this would be a hot topic but I didn't expect it to take off quite so quickly.
I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:
Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful. Players with years of experience can use trial accounts to get good kills in PVP. This is an excellent example of how experience trumps skill points in almost every situation - further developing the notion that buying SP would not give a player any real advantage due to a fundamental experience gap.
Even more accurately, having SP to spend doesn't mean they will even spend it on the 'right' things - but they will get what they want and if this brings them enjoyment then all power to them.
However - and here is the kicker: Having the SP to fly effective ships (especially during a meta switch e.g. when HML's where nerfed or when Marauders where buffed) can open up opportunities for players to GET experience. Being able to fly a fleet-doctrine ship can take weeks/months for players who start with a deficit. Equally someone who very quickly nails PVE and enjoys it (missions/incursions/explo-sites) and makes good money from it is stopped from moving into the next level because a larger ship requires an arbitrary amount of time to achieve the required 'break points' of DPS/Tank etc. that the more advances challenges require.
SP <> Skill. That applies to people who are 1 week old and people who are 10 years into the game. Just because you have 200M SP I wont think you're a good pilot. I'll just this you auto-renew a subscription.
Anyway - bring on the flames. It seems people get really but-hurt over the prospect of easily to kill newbies in shiny ships... |
Oshia Launay
Galactic Fringe Inc
2
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Posted - 2014.04.04 13:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:
Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?
No thanks.
Generalizing the idea that rank 5 skills should merely provide those last few bonus points for people looking to fully maximize their stats in one area or another, as opposed to unlocking all sort of tier 2 goodness, whether tech 2 modules, ships or 'advanced' skills, would go a long way towards making the gap between long time veterans and new players smaller.
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Balshem Rozenzweig
Akademia Milicyjna
The North is Coming
37
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Posted - 2014.04.04 13:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.
1) every class of ships have limited SP you can allocate in it. You can be competitive frigate pilot in 2 months. You will be however limited to that ship
2) skills give only so much and you tend to loose by tens of percents not just few of them. Fights when that +5% armor matters are rare tbh. It's more of a rock - paper - scissors thing when it comes to eve
3) even really new players are good for fleets. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and ECM work almost exactly as well no matter who's using them. You don't even have to fly an ewar ship to use them (well - maybe with ECM it is needed). You join a fleet of cruisers with your pitiful frigate, and then destroy optimal/tracking of the target. It works.
4)I found that isk is more of a problem in FW zone than SP. You need cash to keep these navy frigs comming. Still - I used kestrel and condor for 5 months and lived with it. I even killed stuff solo.
P2W makes me angry cause there's no limit to that usually. I prefer subscriptions cause they are fair. Spending countless cash on gear/ammo would make me quit in literally 1 day.
Singature Radius 48 m |
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