A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

I can give you one good reason why a Pay 2 Win Eve will never work.

A newbie with a 30 million SP character and the ships to go with them is still a newbie.

@Ralph King-Griffin gief Indy gif.. MINE.

The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships..

I stopped reading there, mainly because your friend is a moron.

A 1 week old character can fly a properly fitted ship for what is he wants to do.

Even if you could dump over 5k dollar into the game and buy a blinged out Navy Raven, you will still be ganked. Because you can not buy knowledge and actual skills (not skillpoints).

Also, your friend is a moron in terms of that he can already dump his money in game and buy a character with good skillpoints, if he does, let me know what the name is so I can await the big loss because your friend doesn't know HOW to use the skillpoints.


0/10

p.s. Next time, just say YOU want P2W and don't hide behind imaginary friends

I can give you one good reason why a Pay 2 Win Eve will never work.

A newbie with a 30 million SP character and the ships to go with them is still a newbie.

@Ralph King-Griffin gief Indy gif.. MINE.

OP needs his assets removed by his CEO, awoxed, kicked from his corp, have all his alts outed, have his JC destroyed and camped into a station without a medical till he's down to 900k SP.

We as a community need to make this happen, for the betterment of the game.

Thanks Jonah.

I was wondering how not to break forum rules regarding a killboard link about Mr. Raven, totally forgot about the mittani post.

Errr pay to win in eve...

Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar

Is this not basically p2w?

Naah, it's Pay 2 Expensive loss with foolish fit.

Errr pay to win in eve...

Buy plex
Sell plex for isk
buy character on bazaar

Is this not basically p2w?

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.

That provides exactly what the OP is after: SP for ISK.

The OP also needs to learn more about what it takes to get kills in EVE Online before suggesting that a few-days-old character can't get kills. There was a famous video about two pilots taking day-old characters in Rifters out to Providence and having a hell of a time. Sadly I don't have it bookmarked, nor can I find it :\

edit: an alternative to P2W by buying SP would be to remove SP altogether. You just buy the skill books and fly whatever ship you can afford.

I would much prefer a system that augmented the SP system by awarding you bonus SP based on what your pilot in the game is actually doing. Not sure how it could be implemented, since there are so many different things that can be done in EVE.

The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.

1) every class of ships have limited SP you can allocate in it. You can be competitive frigate pilot in 2 months. You will be however limited to that ship
2) skills give only so much and you tend to loose by tens of percents not just few of them. Fights when that +5% armor matters are rare tbh. It's more of a rock - paper - scissors thing when it comes to eve
3) even really new players are good for fleets. Tracking disruptors, dampeners and ECM work almost exactly as well no matter who's using them. You don't even have to fly an ewar ship to use them (well - maybe with ECM it is needed). You join a fleet of cruisers with your pitiful frigate, and then destroy optimal/tracking of the target. It works.
4)I found that isk is more of a problem in FW zone than SP. You need cash to keep these navy frigs comming. Still - I used kestrel and condor for 5 months and lived with it. I even killed stuff solo.

P2W makes me angry cause there's no limit to that usually. I prefer subscriptions cause they are fair. Spending countless cash on gear/ammo would make me quit in literally 1 day.

Some really good points - I'll reply to them since you took a lot of time to make a solid contribution to the thread.

1) Total agree - however support skills that a non-ship-specific make a big difference.
2) Agree'd. but there isn't just 1 5% skill - there are a few dousen - especially in frigates. A small ammount of extra fitting, shield, hull etc. can all add up to a BIG advantage.
3) Real alliances run SRP's to replace expensive, high SP ships - it is frowned upon or outright not acceptable to bring something along the lines of what your talking about. Also: What if the pilot doesn't want to be a 'Space Healer'? What if they don't want to be the 'Support who wards'?
4) What you fly should be based on what you can afford - increasing your SP results in no ISK gain if you don't know HOW to earn money efficiently - that wouldn't change.

Also "Pay 2 Win" was an ironic statement: Because older players have paid for years and have a multitude of advantages that a new player doesn't have even if they had identical SP. It's actually closer to "Pay to catch up"

Ooofft, lots of hate, personal attacks, extreme edge case scenarios etc. - I knew this would be a hot topic but I didn't expect it to take off quite so quickly.

I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:

Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful. Players with years of experience can use trial accounts to get good kills in PVP. This is an excellent example of how experience trumps skill points in almost every situation - further developing the notion that buying SP would not give a player any real advantage due to a fundamental experience gap.

Even more accurately, having SP to spend doesn't mean they will even spend it on the 'right' things - but they will get what they want and if this brings them enjoyment then all power to them.

However - and here is the kicker: Having the SP to fly effective ships (especially during a meta switch e.g. when HML's where nerfed or when Marauders where buffed) can open up opportunities for players to GET experience. Being able to fly a fleet-doctrine ship can take weeks/months for players who start with a deficit. Equally someone who very quickly nails PVE and enjoys it (missions/incursions/explo-sites) and makes good money from it is stopped from moving into the next level because a larger ship requires an arbitrary amount of time to achieve the required 'break points' of DPS/Tank etc. that the more advances challenges require.

SP <> Skill. That applies to people who are 1 week old and people who are 10 years into the game. Just because you have 200M SP I wont think you're a good pilot. I'll just this you auto-renew a subscription.

Anyway - bring on the flames. It seems people get really but-hurt over the prospect of easily to kill newbies in shiny ships...

1) Total agree - however support skills that a non-ship-specific make a big difference.
2) Agree'd. but there isn't just 1 5% skill - there are a few dousen - especially in frigates. A small ammount of extra fitting, shield, hull etc. can all add up to a BIG advantage.
3) Real alliances run SRP's to replace expensive, high SP ships - it is frowned upon or outright not acceptable to bring something along the lines of what your talking about. Also: What if the pilot doesn't want to be a 'Space Healer'? What if they don't want to be the 'Support who wards'?
4) What you fly should be based on what you can afford - increasing your SP results in no ISK gain if you don't know HOW to earn money efficiently - that wouldn't change.

Also "Pay 2 Win" was an ironic statement: Because older players have paid for years and have a multitude of advantages that a new player doesn't have even if they had identical SP. It's actually closer to "Pay to catch up"

Any form of p2w boosting will be heavily abused by older players.

I'm a very new player (approx. 6 weeks) and cannot see the point of being able to just jump through all of the initial stuff (which I am of course, currently going through).

1) If you're serious about a game like EVE, you'll actually enjoy the learning and discovery phase, whilst flying the more basic ships / using basic equipment

2) Even if someone handed me infinite ISK / skills / ships, I wouldn't really have a clue what to do with them / it, and would most likely get bashed by anyone with more experience, which personally i believe would lead to even more frustration and confusion than a new player currently experiences, therefore leading to more quitting... "Hey I've paid my way to getting all this stuff, why am I not suddenly really epic at the game??!?! THIS SUCKS, I QUIT!!"

3) Like anything in life, you don't get full appreciation or enjoyment from it, unless you have put in the necessary effort to then reap the rewards

I don't care what game it is - Tetris, Sonic, Goldeneye, Sims, WoW, or EVE, you CANNOT run before you can walk, and cannot buy/cheat your way to being good at it. As I've read A LOT since being a member, the most valuable asset in EVE is not skills, equipment, or even ISK... It is the commodity of time. Without a lot of that invested, you're going to be the loser.

Just my two pennies worth, but I think I'm right

While I'm not totally against the idea to pay to "catch up" with characters created at launch:
You can kinda already do that by buying an old character on the bazaar.

And you do overestimate the amount of gain skill points bring. You can get enough skill points in 3 months of focussed training to decently pilot any specific sub-capital ship. While you might get a bit more performance with a couple more lvl 5 skills, that's usually not that important, unless you are fighting someone in the same ship. But in a fight between different ships, the ship strengths are more important than skill points.

Just here to confirm that this new player is indeed right.

And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression

Of course - Eve requires a particular Mind Set to attract people. the ability to accelerate skill training would not change this.

More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.

Eve has a lot of flavour - it can take months to reach an SP break-point to be effective at a lot of these things (e.g. what if you DONT want to PVP in a frig?). In that time I wouldn't blame some people for becoming disenfranchised with the skill system despite the game play.

Wait...whut?


You have obviously no idea what you are talking about.

I've seen less then 2 month olds get kills (or made kills possible) as good as veterans do.

The other thing to consider here is how broken this would be for experienced players' alts. Someone who knows a lot about making isk in the game could level a sidekick account super efficiently to make a ton of isk for not a lot of work. It's the same concept that prevents players from training industrial ships on a trial account, for example. I also think that pay to win is a slippery slope that leads to player laziness, especially in a player driven economy like eve that is based on hard work.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

I'm also pleasantly surprised that amidst the anger and bile most people where inherently agreeing with the base concept of why this idea isn't game breaking:

Buying SP doesn't make you a better pilot. It doesn't give you any experience in HOW to play eve or how to be successful.

Gap is huge and takes a lot to seal, but you might be looking at it in a wrong way.

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.

Nobody is denying that you can pile money into Eve to purchase a pretrained character or ships, it's just that doing so normally ends up in hilarious and ignominious explosions, in short it rarely ends well for the purchaser.

As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.

A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Without going into too much detail, it seems like it might be worth seriously considering. Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

I've been playing since 2006'ish and I want to see a new influx of players or a way for newer players to accelerate themselfs to keep interest in the game. I've spent years training skills and it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. All i had to do was auto renew a subscription. What i've DONE in Eve feels like an accomplishment.

Perhaps offering 1 months subscription cost for 1 months worth of skillpoints (based on char stats) into your unassigned pool would be a possible way to ensure that old players got the same number of SP for every penny/cent they spent as a new player does. None of this makes new players better at the game or more financially sound... just gives them access to more ships/bonuses/market-opportunities.

As much as some people like to stroke themselves about some kind of supposed EvE ideological purity the reality is that ofcourse you can buy PLEX for real money and you can buy anything ingame for PLEX, including multiple accounts, pre-trained characters, all the ships you could ever want, etc...

Few games offer as much possibility of influencing gameplay with your wallet as EvE does.

Every time I pay my subscription, which allows me to play internet spaceships, I win.

And rapidly proving that he not too stupid to play Eve, despite his initial impression

More to the point, people are getting a little derailed: I'm highlighting that right clicking an object, choosing "train skill" and then waiting and fixed amount of time is unrewarding game-play. Taking part in a variety of activities without fear of 'loosing time' however seems to make more sense.

That insinuates that someone adds a skill to the training queue and then does nothing until the training is complete? Surely EVE is the classic multi-tasking and multi-learning game?? i.e. while you're waiting for one thing, you do / learn another?

It seems as though the arguments put forwards are summarising a desire to reach some kind of 'end goal' as quickly as possible?

The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

Wut? I have around 7m SP on this char (1 of 2 combat pilots), friggen blast to play. Properly fit frig T2 loadouts where applicable. Thinking about dropping in another month of training for a maticore, luv the ship with my other pilot. You're friend? should stick to WoW perhaps. That's it right? or some other clone of it. He want's quick level cap, be at the pinnacle of pwnrship. Doesn't exist here... so he is lost in trying to play this game as he would WoW.

The English would love their grammar back.

You're where it should be your
Want's where it is clearly wants

Just to name 2 major errors.

As bafoon as that last paragraph in the OP sounds, I have a worried feeling CCP will not be shooting such proposal down. Reminds me of how Planetside 2 handles its access to competitive gear.

A strange topic title and I've rapidly changed my opinions on these things over the past few years, but i'll explain where i'm coming from.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

I used to ignore this, but it's becoming unavoidable - The new player-> veteran gulf is big and boosts for new players only goes so far. So my question is this:

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

Without going into too much detail, it seems like it might be worth seriously considering. Becoming GOOD at eve takes time, but that is also relative. If you play every day for 10 hours you WILL get better... only to be hindered by the arbitrary number that is 'Skill points'.

I've been playing since 2006'ish and I want to see a new influx of players or a way for newer players to accelerate themselfs to keep interest in the game. I've spent years training skills and it doesn't feel like an accomplishment. All i had to do was auto renew a subscription. What i've DONE in Eve feels like an accomplishment.

Perhaps offering 1 months subscription cost for 1 months worth of skillpoints (based on char stats) into your unassigned pool would be a possible way to ensure that old players got the same number of SP for every penny/cent they spent as a new player does. None of this makes new players better at the game or more financially sound... just gives them access to more ships/bonuses/market-opportunities.

The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

What is this "win" that people keep referencing?

I've thought about this issue too some. This toon has over 110M SP and I'm the guy who made it. I'm in a young alliance full of <1 year old toons however. Things I take for granted like t2 EANM's are actually kind of a big deal to many of them. It's 8-10d of training. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket overall. But when you consider that's for a single module and there are literally dozens of such mandatory items to be at all competitive regardless of what you use, it adds up fast.

I do not believe it should be possible to accelerate training times via plex or subscription, this would be very bad for the game as a whole. However I do think new players should get some sort of initial boost to allow smart new players to reach a basic level more or less instantly instead of spending 2 months just training up basic fitting skills.

There are a few possible non-p2w solutions. One of the most obvious is to simply give new characters 2-3M free SP to spend as they see fit. That would largely eliminate the issue. I consider this the ideal option as it allows a new player to instantly have a decent frigate or destroyer of their choice. This isn't particularly drastic either. When I started playing back in 2007, my toon was created with around 800k SP if memory serves. I think I had all the prerequisites for t2 small projectiles straight off the character creation screen. And the average SP back then was a lot lower than it is today.

Another option that has also been tried is accelerated skill training for your first 1.5M-2M SP. This was done a couple years back as well. I honestly don't know why CCP decided to brutalize new players by starting them at effectively 0 SP in the current incarnation.

Naah, it's Pay 2 Expensive loss with foolish fit.

One of the most obvious is to simply give new characters 2-3M free SP to spend as they see fit.

Good idea

Make sure they use it to train Tactical Shield Manipulation 5

I hear thats really cool

The ganking community thanks you for your support.

Rolling new toons constantly to avoid sec penalties is a bannable offense. So no, they really don't assuming CCP bothers to keep track of such things. It could also be applied to only the first toon on a new account. For further security, it could even be attached to the first payment on the account rather than being given out with the trial. Besides, who goes to the trouble of rolling a new toon just to gank some freighter? Do that **** as an outlaw with a kill rights list a km long. Neutral POS/orca stuffed full of catalysts ftw.

who goes to the trouble of rolling a new toon just to gank some freighter? Do that **** as an outlaw with a kill rights list a km long.

I've thought about this issue too some. This toon has over 110M SP and I'm the guy who made it. I'm in a young alliance full of <1 year old toons however. Things I take for granted like t2 EANM's are actually kind of a big deal to many of them. It's 8-10d of training. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket overall. But when you consider that's for a single module and there are literally dozens of such mandatory items to be at all competitive regardless of what you use, it adds up fast.

I do not believe it should be possible to accelerate training times via plex or subscription, this would be very bad for the game as a whole. However I do think new players should get some sort of initial boost to allow smart new players to reach a basic level more or less instantly instead of spending 2 months just training up basic fitting skills.

There are a few possible non-p2w solutions. One of the most obvious is to simply give new characters 2-3M free SP to spend as they see fit. That would largely eliminate the issue. I consider this the ideal option as it allows a new player to instantly have a decent frigate or destroyer of their choice. This isn't particularly drastic either. When I started playing back in 2007, my toon was created with around 800k SP if memory serves. I think I had all the prerequisites for t2 small projectiles straight off the character creation screen. And the average SP back then was a lot lower than it is today.

Another option that has also been tried is accelerated skill training for your first 1.5M-2M SP. This was done a couple years back as well. I honestly don't know why CCP decided to brutalize new players by starting them at effectively 0 SP in the current incarnation.

I have a good friend who loves the idea of Eve, has played it and is intelligent enough to grasp the concepts of it and work within the structures it has in place. He see's Fleet fights on Youtube and reports of massive scams and schemes and he loves it. He's not alone, I have multiple friends who are like this. The one i am talking about in particular has Subbed a few times and every time after a month or 2 has come back with the same feedback: It takes too long to get into properly fitted ships.

Should people be able to accelerate skill training as a micro transaction?

I see no issues with this... I mean we do already have the character bazaar so why not allow people to pay to boost their own created characters?

I see no issues with this... I mean we do already have the character bazaar so why not allow people to pay to boost their own created characters?

I would add the following terms though
-They are done as sp boosts and not flat amounts of sp. Something along the lines of 2x or 3x sp for 30 days
-They are cash only purchases to prevent plex prices from going through the roof

Edit: better yet allow 2x or 3x boosts to be purchased as sellable licenses for $5 more the same as plex.

Because unlike the character bazaar, it bypasses the mechanics that ensure that you can't get skills faster by paying for it compared to not paying for it. Also, unlike the character bazaar, it completely wrecks the character ecology. Also, unlike the character bazaar, it benefits existing characters (i.e. old players) far more than it does new characters.

If you want to train faster, then just ask CCP to make training faster. Don't invent this idiotic pay-to-skip-mechanics scheme that does horrible things to the game and mechanics balance.

Because that's really what these ideas boil down to: the notion that GÇ£I don't want to be subject to the same mechanics everyone else is subject to GÇö please let me pay to not play the same game as everyone else.GÇ¥ The very notion that drives the idea is also the very reason why it's an obviously hideously stupid idea.

The pay to win is already very prevalent in eve

Again, please explain what you consider "winning" in EvE

Who cares if you can pay to earn skills faster?

The pay to win is already very prevalent in eve

Who says it shouldn't benefit everyone new and old?

The big win is it's another revenue stream for ccp which allows them to

Dont bother. Themepark players will always insist on pay to win or the ability to catch up.

They are too brainwashed to see that EVE doesn work like that no re that it needs to work like that.

This is proposed as a tool to help those who want it.

if sp is so insignificant why do you all care so much about the thought of someone catching up to your 5+ year old character?

Winning is what ever you make it to be in eve. Finally flying that new shiny ship, getting those sweet sweet killmails, owning your own piece of space, collecting billions of isk in day trading among thousands more.

This is proposed as a tool to help those who want it. If you are already winning eve your way then don't use it but i don't see why it matters if other choose to use and pay for it. It's not like it's a proposal for over night cap pilots.

If sp is so insignificant why do you all care so much about the thought of someone catching up to your 5+ year old character?

Winning is what ever you make it to be in eve. Finally flying that new shiny ship, getting those sweet sweet killmails, owning your own piece of space, collecting billions of isk in day trading among thousands more.

This is proposed as a tool to help those who want it. If you are already winning eve your way then don't use it but i don't see why it matters if other choose to use and pay for it. It's not like it's a proposal for over night cap pilots.

If sp is so insignificant why do you all care so much about the thought of someone catching up to your 5+ year old character?

Yes who cares if mechanics don't apply to you?
I mean, training time is just a mechanic GÇö you should be able to skip it, because why should it apply the same to you as everyone else?
Warp scrambling is just a mechanic GÇö you should be able to skip it, because why should it apply the same to you as everyone else?
Spawning ISK is just a mechanic GÇö you should be able to skip it, because why should it apply the same to you as everyone else?
Taking damage is just a mechanic GÇö you should be able to skip it, because why should it apply the same to you as everyone else?

GǪaside from the tiny problematic detail that there is no pay-to-win in EVE.

It's not that it should or shouldn't GÇö it's that it can't and won't.

GǪnot nearly make up for the lost income from people leaving in droves as the game is fundamentally ruined.

Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here?

Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here?

Ask the null sec cartel directors.

Do you argue for the sake of arguing or am i really missing something here?

You can skip training time via character bazaar?
You can spawn isk via plex

The other 2 don't apply to this debate about benefits from external cash.

What do you mean can't and wont?

create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined.

Are you stalking goons?!

Such as?

Perhaps you should begin with the learning of how things actually work first.

Such as?

The ones she listed I'm the post you quoted

Perhaps you should begin with the learning of how things actually work first.

He's angry about a bunch of changes to highsec that have happened in the past 6 months & believes it's some nullsec-CCP conspiracy directly targetting him, so he's come up with a second conspiracy to make his first conspiracy kind of make sense to him & anyone stupid enough to take his word for it.

So, what are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to?

Learn to read.

What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to?

I can read that. It says "Learn to read".

It would seem its you who needs to learn to read, since you did not answer the question.

What are these "vastly bigger problems" you refer to?

List them here.

Learn to read.

Those are fail reasons, and not "problems" whatsoever.

You can still skill at the normal rate. Nothing stops you from doing so.

You're really missing something: you're asking for a method to skip game mechanics you don't like. That is exactly why what you're asking for is a very bad idea.

Nope. The bazaar does not skip training time; PLEX does not spawn ISK. That is why they work.
The problem here is that you don't understand how the game works and you think of GÇ£solutionsGÇ¥ to problems that don't exist, and in doing so create vastly bigger problems than the ones you imagined.

They all apply: they are all examples of why it's a very bad idea to let players arbitrarily skip game mechanics just because they pay for it.

I mean can't and won't.
New players will not have the cash, the investment, the familiarity with mechanics, the long-term vision, the attributes, or the experience to make good use of the faster training. All that will happen is that they make more mistakes faster. Meanwhile, older players who do have all that will use this to further the SP gap between them and new players; to spam new special-purpose alts; and to generally assure that they get every edge there is to get. You are creating the exact problem the solution is meant to solve because you're trying to fix a problem that the game has already solved for you.

New players are not in a position to benefit from this change; old players are.
Even new players somehow were able to do so, all that would happen is that they maintain the status quo.
So they can't and they won't benefit everyone GÇö only the old.

Again: if you want to train faster, ask CCP to make training faster. At least then, you know it will benefit everyone and it won't skip any game mechanics in the process, which is a huge plus.

How so?

I have quit every game I tried that had a pay to win mechanic. It is for lazy developers and even lazier players and completely takes away any sense of achievement from a game.

If i don't want to earn isk and buy a plex to sell, have i not skipped the isk generation mechanic?

If i spend isk to buy a character already loaded with sp, have i not skipped the sp generation mechanic?

The other 2 don't apply because i'm not asking for a new mechanic.

Once again with new and old players it's relative. I don't see how offering a way to speed up sp gives an advantage to one over the other?

I don't want faster sp, i am very happy with the pace and have no interest in paying with usd for what i'm proposing. I'm just saying if someone would like to pay to speed up sp let them and profit. The profits will benefit me.

Because like PLEXing your account, the thing you are wanting to pay for does not appear out of nowhere

What I mean by this;

No one "plays for free" as the PLEX is payed for by someone

No one learns skills faster (with the exception of the extremely limited item) as the character on the bizairre (intentional) was trained at the same speed as everyone else.

If you are a lazyball and buy a character instead of training and learning, well thats your lookout, but SOMEONE trained that character, and went to the effort of doing it.

You genuinely can't grasp that if someone expends RL money or PLEX for accelerated SP, then he is spending MORE than someone who is skilling conventionally?

It doesn't "break" any mechanic.

It makes no difference to anyone else in the game, what rate someone who spends money or PLEX on an accelerated rate, does.

This is really elementary stuff that anyone with a modicum of objective perspective and capacity to fathom a simple abstract model and its repercussions, can easily comprehend.

To answer the main question, no, EVE should not ever be pay to win nor is it like that now. PLEX and the character bazaar aren't pay to win, both are "pay for someone else to grind for you" but offer no advantage that anyone who isn't paying can't get.

Other than game time, the only things you should be able to get for real life money form EVE are monocles and ships skins and the like. The people telling y'all that this is a bad idea aren't anti-progress, they are anti "lets kill what makes EVE great".

Say no to pay to win.

I still don't get it... As a monthly paying customer where do i sign up for my free 700m from a plex sale? Oh wait no i have to PAY extra for that, how is that not the definition of pay-to-win?

Through the character bazaar isk = sp, therefore we already have a mechanism for paying to win with sp. Is it such a stretch to allow this on someones personal account instead of having to buy someone elses?

To the second paragraph true and very fair, if plex and character bazaar weren't a thing i can't see sp boosts being a thing either.

Consider the following example:

You can buy 1 month SP boost for 1 PLEX or some amount of currency between cost of PLEX and Gametime.
Lets say the boost causes a 50% increase in stats.

This person is then paying 2 PLEX or 2 Gametimes per month, for that one character, to skill it 50% faster.

SO WHAT

How is that a problem for anyone else?
We can continue skilling at the same rate, and at the same nominal cost, as we always have.

That some people would be doing this makes not one iota of difference to our game experience.

Furthermore, as to Bazaar, this guys toons will NEVER be more profitable than someone who grows their Bazaar toons conventionally. Why? Because he is expending 1 additional PLEX per month, to skill them, whereas someone who is not expending the PLEX, simply trains for longer, and sells the toon for a much greater profit, a month later.

It seriously makes no difference to anyone elses game experience, nor to the Bazaar.
Anyone who wants to boost their toons, will have to expend double the amount in PLEX/currency that a conventional player does.

It wouldn't make a bit of difference to anyone else.

It doesn't "break" any game mechanic.

It just means that players who have PLEX or currency at hand, can achieve their skill goals sooner.
So what. They are doing it by expending more resources in that time period, to do so.
Overall, they will have spent atleast as much PLEX/money, and probably much more, than any conventional player.
The only difference, is time.

In order to do so, they have to use PLEX or purchase the boost with currency, both of which are good for the game overall.

If we wanted to play games that weren't EVE, we'd be playing them already.

It wouldn't make a bit of difference to anyone else.
It doesn't "break" any game mechanic.

It just means that players who have PLEX or currency at hand, can achieve their skill goals sooner.
So what.

I still don't get it... As a monthly paying customer where do i sign up for my free 700m from a plex sale? Oh wait no i have to PAY extra for that, how is that not the definition of pay-to-win?

Through the character bazaar isk = sp, therefore we already have a mechanism for paying to win with sp

I still don't get it... As a monthly paying customer where do i sign up for my free 700m from a plex sale? Oh wait no i have to PAY extra for that, how is that not the definition of pay-to-win?

Through the character bazaar isk = sp, therefore we already have a mechanism for paying to win with sp.

Is it such a stretch to allow this on someones personal account instead of having to buy someone elses?

To the second paragraph true and very fair, if plex and character bazaar weren't a thing i can't see sp boosts being a thing either.

He's angry about a bunch of changes to highsec that have happened in the past 6 months & believes it's some nullsec-CCP conspiracy directly targetting him, so he's come up with a second conspiracy to make his first conspiracy kind of make sense to him & anyone stupid enough to take his word for it.

Man, is that the best you can come up with?
I am surprised your propaganda team has not pulled your posting privileges.

Wouldn't make any difference.

Nor is it exclusive to new players, old players could conceivably use it too either on furthering their mains or for diversifying alts.

It amounts to just one more PLEX sink, and one more currency faucet for CCP.

It really makes no difference to any of us, if some random guy who is paying 2xPLEX per month, per character, gets for example, a 50-75% training boost.

I can understand people morally being upset that they spent 10 years to train a character, but anyone using boosts would still be expending the same amount of PLEX/cash in order to achieve that same SP total, infact much more. Only difference is it wouldn't take him 10 years to do so. But so what.

You took 10 years with 1xPLEX/money per month to get your total SP.

That guy will instead take 5yrs with 2xPLEX/money per month to get the same total SP.

(And thats assuming a 100% boost, which it would certainly not be).

Yes but once again, as i just said, i could outspend him, easily, and then in the time it takes him to catch up, 5 years, during that 5 years i would of accelerated my own training and now i'm another 10 years ahead. So he NEVER catches up. EVER. So its basicly exactly what we have now. which makes this idea... drum roll please... and say it with me... P O I N T L E S S

It amounts to just one more PLEX sink, and one more currency faucet for CCP.

Wouldn't make any difference.

It amounts to just one more PLEX sink, and one more currency faucet for CCP.

I can understand people morally being upset that they spent 10 years to train a character, but anyone using boosts would still be expending the same amount of PLEX/cash in order to achieve that same SP total, infact much more. Only difference is it wouldn't take him 10 years to do so. But so what.

So you are saying you dont mind then if, to stay "competitive" you had to spend, $20, $50 or $100 per month because you need to pour PLEX into skills?

GǪaside from breaking the skilling and attribute mechanics and unbalancing the game in a way that is expressly forbidden in the EULA.

Why is the former needed and what makes you think the second will happen in enough amounts to counter the loss of customers?
Doesn't it strike you as odd to suggest a way for CCP to (supposedly) earn money that CCP abhors so thoroughly that they're currently willing to lose money by enforcing the exact opposite?

So paying to not have mechanics apply to you is inherently a bad idea.
So it doesn't solve anything and is thoroughly unnecessary on top of being a bad idea.
So it actually creates the problems it is intended to solve, making it a self-defeating idea on top of a bad and unnecessary one.

If some guy is pouring twice the amount of PLEX/cash into his accounts as you are, then who deserves the competitive edge?

Its an arbitrary difference that it would be used for skilling an existing character, rather than instead gradually growing a stable of alts, as has been the traditional format to expend excess PLEX/cash.

In one case, everyone plays under the same rules and use the same mechanics; in the other, one is using completely different rules and bypasses a core mechanic.

If some guy is pouring twice the amount of PLEX/cash into his accounts as you are, then who deserves the competitive edge?

bugger off

I think salvos fancys tippa.
I can't see anything els this could actually be about.

Source me where it is forbidden in the EULA.

Dafuq does this even mean in English?

Yes, typical Tippia circular logic.

There is no "problem" with the current system.

I support it as an additional PLEX sink, money faucet, and to offer an alternative to players to skill faster, at additional cost, rather than having to wait 10 years of their life.

To "stay competitive"?

Everyone will still play under the same rules and the same mechanics.

Everyone can do that. And everyone can choose not to do it.

Notice the part where they say you're not allowed to use game-external methods to acquire anything at an accelerated rate compared to normal gameplay?

NWhy? What problem does it solve? Is that solution worth breaking core game mechanics over? Is that solution worth losing players over? Is that solution worth reversing part of the EULA? Is that solution necessary considering what's already available?

EULA. Notice the part where they say you're not allowed to use game-external methods to acquire anything at an accelerated rate compared to normal gameplay?[/url]
Now you're just being absurd. CCP adjusting their game into a new set of mechanics is not an EULA infraction.

Why? What problem does it solve? Is that solution worth breaking core game mechanics over? Is that solution worth losing players over? Is that solution worth reversing part of the EULA? Is that solution necessary considering what's already available?

So uou think a service provided by CCP would be game-external?

There is "no problem" nor does it "solve any problem".

It merely provides a means for players to expend their PLEX/cash in an additional optional way.

Its just one other way to expend PLEX/cash.

Y
Those who dont, can continue life in their car without a cupholder.

Now you're just being absurd. CCP adjusting their game into a new set of mechanics is not an EULA infraction.

This idea is not a fix, this is new content.

It's supposed to be something extra (hence ISK sink) to spend your ISK on. I don't think it's needed either, but I also don't think it's trying to fix a problem.

No.
The ISK you're getting is generated in the normal way, by spending time collecting it through the regular in-game activities that accrue ISK. You are simply trading your (future) time against time they've spent in the past. PLEX don't create any ISK whatsoever.

No.
The SP you're getting has been generated in the normal way, by spending time and ISK putting skills into a queue and waiting for them to complete. If you want 6 years worth of SP, it took 6 years to create them. You are also only ever getting old decisions GÇö not new ones. You are trading ISK to be spent in the future against ISK and time that has been spent in the past. The bazaar does not create any SP whatsoever.

Yes you are. You're asking for a mechanic that skips other mechanics GÇö specifically the skill training and attribute mechanics GÇö and to be able to pay for the privilege of not having those mechanics apply to you the way they do to everyone else. The other two apply for the same reason: because they are examples of paying to not have mechanics apply to you the way they do to everyone else.

The reason you don't feel that they apply is because the game breaking nature is so readily apparent in them, but fundamentally, it's the exact same kind of game breakage that you're asking for, and what you're asking for is very bad for the exact same reasons why those ideas are bad.

Because one can take advantage of it and the other cannot. Be it because of lack of knowledge or funding or support structure, new players will only ever be able to GÇ£benefitGÇ¥ in the sense that they maintain the status quo, whereas old players GÇö who don't lack any of those GÇö will be able to push ahead in many new and interesting ways (that break the game).

You dont need a cupholder in your car either, but it is an option, and lack of a cup holder is not a reason not to build a car.

This is not a "problem", its a usedul option to those who wish to make use of it.

Old and new players can make equal use of it.

Its not any different in that sense from the existing status quo.

By cupholder, you appear to mean a turbocharged engine adding 250 extra BHP that, if misused will flip the car upside down and explode the occupants

But yeah totally

The second you introduce paying usd for anything non cosmetic in game, you are allowing pay-to-win.

The reason i don't see anything game breaking is because there isn't anything game breaking.

I see your point of creating sp for usd but does that really matter?

Still don't see how it benefits old over new players, both would receive the same rate gains.