A lot of Cadmium is sourced from low sec moons held by null alliances. The moons are getting siphon units dropped on them which means they now have to be patrolled and stolen Cadmium paid for. This is driving up the price.

I've been using the Siphon units and the turn over is pretty good you can make a couple of bill a day but the grind is boring and its hit or miss if you get your siphons detected by the owner you've lost your investment. CCP needs to lower the price of Siphon units and twerk some changes when they introduce larger siphons.

That post says nothing, we need siphon units that target raw materials so POS owners can protect moon goo with worthless reactions. There is no point in CCP introducing broken content, the last patches have all been about fixing content so why have they now introduced broken siphon units?

We need.

You mean to say "I need".


Why are you so butthurt about them being smart enough to counter your attempt?

What is smart about having broken content? Why even introduce siphon units in the first place if they are not going to work as intended. Hopefully we will get some dev clarification on the introduction of units that can ignore reactions allowing us to steal what we want.

What makes it broken?

What is smart about having broken content? Why even introduce siphon units in the first place if they are not going to work as intended. Hopefully we will get some dev clarification on the introduction of units that can ignore reactions allowing us to steal what we want.

Valuable POS harvest such as high end moon goo can be protected by running worthless or cheap reactions. The Siphon unit always steals from the last item in a chain, so as long as the pos owner runs a worthless reaction on the end the siphon unit can not steal the valuable material.

Introducing a siphon unit that steals only raw material will end this exploit. I was just looking for dev clarification for a time scale on the fix.

Oh, so now it's an exploit, because they outsmart you?

What about the fact that they run "worthless reactions" now,
because of you trying to steal stuff from them?

My guess is that the syphon units are just a prototype to experiment on certain code added and to get some numbers of player activities. Similar with the 'bounty balloon unit'.

Are players willing to snap at the ankles of the lions if you give them the opportunity and tools to do so? Yes/No.

He doesn't care if the units are broken,
his tiny ego just got hurt because he realized they deny him his silly satisfaction.


I'd say first it was him who laughed at them because he could inflate his ego ...
... and now they laugh at him because his fake self esteem popped like a bubble.

Exactly CCP made them to stimulate null alliances realising it was far to easy to maintain ISK farms once established, these units when fully developed will cause this to occur. In their current form they can be ignored via reaction exploit and they are still far to easy to detect and remove to cause any stimulation in the protection of moon goo POS.

Well only time will tell if CCP intends for Siphon units to be content or if they should just be placed inside a station container alongside my Anaconda mines. The null bear rage when they get the new siphon units working is gonna be epic. :) Look forward to reading the first dev post here.

Daddy needs a new siphon unit, moon goo only please :)

Siphons should have two modes. One that siphons at its current rate, and a simply destroy rate. As in you park it on a POS, and just neuter the income. Nobody gets the moongoo. Gives large alliances a reason to go out and use these things rather than just individuals.

Having used Siphon units for the past few weeks I've found them to be fairly entertaining and serving a purpose barely. Is CCP going to make changes to the units when they introduce medium and large or has this project just been left to redundancy?

I'll give you a hint... you may have already answered your own question given CCP's very obvious history in some areas of content.

Personally, I hope they introduce a siphon that can steal from complex reactors.

The Siphon costs are also on the high side with a unit only paying for itself after 24 hours on an average moon.

I agree with OP.

No, you dont.

Besides, if they do have another syphon, how about one that syphons fuel.

I do.

No, you don't.

an adult male

No, you aren't

And I haven't told you what to do

Please quote me as saying such

I do agree with OP

Yeah, but you don't though

I do.

honorable gentleman

I speak my own honest truth. I agree with OP.

Why thank you for recognising that.
Yes I am.
And as such, I speak my own honest truth.

I agree with OP.
Siphons need a second Dev pass, as they are an unfinished and inconsistent mechanic at this time.
Its a cool concept of economic piracy, and is worth the effort of improving to its full potential.

the context that phrase is used in in this part of the world, does not imply that thats a compliment salvos.

We need.

You mean to say "I need".


Why are you so butthurt about them being smart enough to counter your attempt?

They found a loophole the neutralize a mechanics that CCP worked for to be active in game. THat as ageneral rule is bad and means CCP did nto tought well enough the issue and might grant a revision.

And what makes you think this wasnt intended?

Common sense.

I dont blame CCP, in the least bit, for not getting it quite right on the first attempt.

Yes you do.

This is why I divorced you!

lol you wish

Begone, ye harpy!

if they do have another syphon, how about one that syphons fuel.

What makes it broken?

Not so much broken as useless. I understand his point. The whole concept and application of the siphon has been rendered useless by people setting up worthless reactions for the siphon to pull from.

Siphon's would need the option to select what or where they want to extract.

Cudo's to the people that figured this out in true EvE fashion but the siphon needs more flexibility to be effective or useful.

You are not answering my question.

It is not broken, just because they outsmart you.


Why are you butthurt about them countering your attempt to steal from them?

I think hes complaining that there's no counterplay against their counterplay. Feel free to correct me if there is.

Risk.

Versus.

Reward.

Biggest.

Lie.

in.

Game.


Seriously, I love it when people trot this gem out.

Let me ask you a question: is lowsec mining MORE or LESS profitable than nullsec mining?

Because actual risk is much greater mining in low sec than in null. But profits are much higher renting space in null. And depending on where you're renting, the odds of having to deal with unexpected PvP are pretty remote.

Biggest.

Lie.

in.

Game.


Seriously, I love it when people trot this gem out.

Let me ask you a question: is lowsec mining MORE or LESS profitable than nullsec mining?

Because actual risk is much greater mining in low sec than in null. But profits are much higher renting space in null. And depending on where you're renting, the odds of having to deal with unexpected PvP are pretty remote.

Because that's what being a thief is. You steal things, you put no effort into making them, processing them, working on them. These units, from what I recall, were a way for smaller groups of people to "stick it to" the large corporations that own a crap ton of space who don't guard their assets properly. You make it sound like thieves are a brave bunch of warriors looking for a good fight. I really don't think these units were put in the game to generate fights, I think they were put in to make people actually guard their assets instead of coming by once a week to pick up their moon goo like"lazy men".

I prefer covops gameplay though, so this is just a personal preference.

However, I am asking for an improvement to a currently convoluted system that just "doesn't make sense".

So you want a war party to come in and blow up all the defensive structures. This does not qualify as "sneaky" to me. I also understand where you're coming from. It is unlikely that you can have people guard 24/7 but if you had people come by once every three to four hours just to check if everything is OK, then most problems would be solved. People who put up a lot of guns and never come back but once or twice a week to pick up their moon goo are the ones who have problems.

The hundred million isk a month seems fairly small in comparison to the amount of isk being made off R64 moon goo. So not much sympathy there from me. I see the OPs post as a fix to something that is not currently working as common sense dictates it should. I understand where you're coming from though. People found a way to fight back without actually having to fight, good for them. I believe that the way it's being done doesn't make any sense. I will agree that siphoning units are fine price wise though. They're selling at about an average of 15mil in dodixie, which I think is a fair price. So a price decrease isn't really needed.

So why do people not have to pay a fuel cost to run the siphons? Why do they get to run for free? They don't have to do any real setup, they don't have to fight

good luck, we've been asking for a sov overhaul for years

The fuel cell cost is integrated into the siphon package, thats why they cost 11-15 mil.

Also, I would totally love it if my siphons got a reinforcement timer so that I could actually show up to fight for them, instead of them just getting blapped in a minute by the first guy to man the pos guns. Say a 4-6 hour reinforcement timer.

So a one off cost is comparable to an ongoing maintenance, and the fact that it pays for itself in under a day sounds like a reasonable price?

And while a reinforcement timer would help encourage fights, at the rate they can be scattered out across moons it would mean people have hundreds of timers to contest with all day.

This is becoming a "I don't like being stolen from, and am unhappy" thread.

So you're saying it is/would be harder for large entities and coalitions to maintain control over the flow of moon minerals, thereby breaking up the cartel dynamics that have been in play for years?

*AHEM*

Working as intended.

It just doesn't make sense "to me" that it works that way mechanically.

If CCP says: "Nah, we like it this way, and it totally makes sense that a high tech piece of equipment designed to steal things is stealing the crappy materials over the good materials" Then whatevs. That's their call.

No, I'm saying it provides risk averse people with a risk free way of making passive income with nearly no effort,

Yes, flying into a 50,000 character coalitions space, bypassing gatecamps, defense fleets, lighting up intel channels, etc., flying up to a gunned tower with defense modules that have a random (between 1 and 30 second) lock delay time (god help you if you lag a bit), anchoring a module, and looting said anchored modules at a precisely predictable location EACH F****** TIME is RISK FREE.

Definitely less risky then being faceless member #47239 of huge coalition X and following orders like a good little munchkin.

While coalitions may deserve credit for securing their space, of the two (the siphoner versus random faceless coalition member #47239), the siphoner takes a far greater risk in his day to day operations. Risk averse my a**.

Yes, flying into a 50,000 character coalitions space, bypassing gatecamps, defense fleets, lighting up intel channels, etc., flying up to a gunned tower with defense modules that have a random (between 1 and 30 second) lock delay time (god help you if you lag a bit), anchoring a module, and looting said anchored modules at a precisely predictable location EACH F****** TIME is RISK FREE.

Definitely less risky then being faceless member #47239 of huge coalition X and following orders like a good little munchkin.

While coalitions may deserve credit for securing their space, of the two (the siphoner versus random faceless coalition member #47239), the siphoner takes a far greater risk in his day to day operations. Risk averse my a**.

Which is great, except ALL of that requires thousands of people working together, working to provide our level of safety.

That is a completely different thing to the risk aversion of people who want the game to naturally provide them ways to avoid all risk.

You want to be able to run around, on your own with absolutely no risk dragging in heaps of income without having to risk a damn thing and without having to interact with anyone else.

Well guess what buddy, it's a multiplayer game. If you just want to play a solo game, you wont't get all the rewards.

And no, the siphoner risks absolutely nothing in a covops hauler dumping a structure that is cheap enough to effectively be called free for passive income.

Doesn't matter how it was generated, defense fleets, intel channels, gatecamps, all are a risk. This point does nothing to support the assertion that siphoners are risk averse. Sure, you worked to make your space risky, no debate. Good job. Next.

while you, running solo think you should be showered with riches for running and hiding.

while you, running solo think you should be showered with riches for running and hiding.

The questions everyone should be asking is:

Why was the siphon changed from targeting just moon goo to include reactions as well? What was the motive behind this change?

POS in highsec everywhere, removal of standing requirements?

All high sec moons are barren. Even if they are not, you can't anchor mining arrays in 0.4 space and higher. So it has nothing to do with high sec.

Hint: Who, that is not CCP, has design influence?

The questions everyone should be asking is:

Why was the siphon changed from targeting just moon goo to include reactions as well? What was the motive behind this change?

There is nothing I said that is a rumor.

You should stick to making misleading nullsec maps.

You should be able to configure the siphon units to both target specific materials and destroy instead of just siphon.

If the purpose of the unit is to cause fights and destabilize the region, destroying the materials will definitely get the attention of the sov holders.

Siphons should have two modes. One that siphons at its current rate, and a simply destroy rate. As in you park it on a POS, and just neuter the income. Nobody gets the moongoo. Gives large alliances a reason to go out and use these things rather than just individuals.

You should be able to configure the siphon units to both target specific materials and destroy instead of just siphon.

If the purpose of the unit is to cause fights and destabilize the region, destroying the materials will definitely get the attention of the sov holders.

I don't like any aspect of 'destroy' for siphons because then it just becomes an AFK griefing tool.

Interesting idea, but I don't really think its a good idea to give the siphoning units that much flexibility. Maybe if it was a different deployable that was much more expensive it could work. Since you wouldn't care if you make a profit or not, then spending quite a bit on the unit only seems fair.

Anyways, back on topic to the OP, I still think it's important that siphoning units steal the most valuable resource. Whether we get to choose which resource, or if it automatically does it doesn't really matter to me. Though I think us choosing would be easier since prices fluctuate.

The questions everyone should be asking is:

Why was the siphon changed from targeting just moon goo to include reactions as well? What was the motive behind this change?

The questions everyone should be asking is:

Why was the siphon changed from targeting just moon goo to include reactions as well? What was the motive behind this change?

It is clever for players to find exploit holes.
It is not however good design for the Devs to not plug them up.

I don't think CCP has a problem with afk griefing. Cloaked alts in system are a valid thing.

I get that, but I just don't think it lends to compelling game play. An AFK cloaker never hurt anyone. A siphon that destroys stuff while no one is there obviously is doing damage.

I want to see things added and changed to the game that makes players want to be there, not have to to be there.

They are barely used because CCP was meta gamed. In the design it was expressed to help 'balance them' they should randomly go for moon minerals and reactions at the pos. Thus leaving the door wide open for the pos owner to setup junk reactions to soak up most of the siphons attention keeping the amount of effort from the pos owner to just a tiny notch above what they had to do before siphons were introduced.

Also factor in the CSM is now asking for a pos to lock a ship faster, even when unmanned... It should come as no surprise who on the CSM is pushing for this. They are also in charge of the largest pos farm networks in the game for their alliance.

Agreed. Though, why CCP would agree to something that ruins one of their most recently deployed items is beyond me. Still hoping for some new info on this topic though.

The Small Mobile Siphon Unit in Rubicon can steal raw material (from Moon Harvester Arrays) and processed material (from Simple Reactor Arrays). It will prioritize raw material over processed material if both are available. It cannot steal alchemy output.

A siphon unit can only steal from the end of a chain. For example, if a POS has a two Moon Harvester Arrays that are both connected (through a Coupling Array/Silo) to an active Simple Reactor Array, then only the output from the Simple Reactor Array can be stolen. A siphon unit steals from a single chain each production cycle, so it cannot for instance steal both raw material and processed material at the same time.

He doesn't care if the units are broken,
his tiny ego just got hurt because he realized they deny him his silly satisfaction.


I'd say first it was him who laughed at them because he could inflate his ego ...
... and now they laugh at him because his fake self esteem popped like a bubble.

We need.

You mean to say "I need".


Why are you so butthurt about them being smart enough to counter your attempt?

mynnna if you could act like a representative for a better eve and not just a better goons for 1 second that would be great.

Siphons are broken they are currently useless due to the exploit I explained. We need a dedicated raw material siphon to target moon goo to put pressure on the big doughnut.

. Either fix them or take them out the game as in their current form due to the trash reaction exploit they are pointless and simply eve form of bloat ware. More anaconda mines for my station container

Hopefully some other less self serving CSM members could act on this ;)

Solecist Project, editing this post and removing the EULA infraction has spared you from having a petition filed against you. In the future please remember such posts will be reported upon being discovered.

Solecist Project, editing this post and removing the EULA infraction has spared you from having a petition filed against you. In the future please remember such posts will be reported upon being discovered.

Solecist Project, editing this post and removing the EULA infraction has spared you from having a petition filed against you. In the future please remember such posts will be reported upon being discovered.

mynnna if you could act like a representative for a better eve and not just a better goons for 1 second that would be great.

Siphons are broken they are currently useless due to the exploit I explained. We need a dedicated raw material siphon to target moon goo to put pressure on the big doughnut.

. Either fix them or take them out the game as in their current form due to the trash reaction exploit they are pointless and simply eve form of bloat ware. More anaconda mines for my station container

Hopefully some other less self serving CSM members could act on this ;)

"Ignore links explaining how they're working as intended and how you can counter this so-called exploit, continue whining instead" is the name of the game, then. Typical I suppose.

"Ignore links explaining how they're working as intended and how you can counter this so-called exploit, continue whining instead" is the name of the game, then. Typical I suppose.

He's not ignoring them at all, he's just choosing to disregard them.

He does kind of have a point, though, since as things stand the siphons just don't pass the common sense test. They appear to have an amazing ability to interface with their target POS. The siphon knows exactly what production is occurring within the POS, it knows exactly what materials are needed for production, and then it chooses to ignore all of those raw materials and patiently waits for the POS to finish its production run. With that level of interfacing, the siphon should be able to steal from the beginning of a production chain by simply redirecting some of the raw materials. Instead, it politely asks the production facilities to let it know which materials are needed, and then earmarks all of the same kind of material as untouchable and only takes what is produced from those materials.

Now, maybe I'm wrong with this, but from what I have read it appears that siphon units will not steal moon materials so long as the harvester is linked to a simple reactor. Even though there will be an excess of raw harvested materials, the siphon treats all of them as part of a production chain and so treats those excess materials like they don't exist. That's a rather strange thing for a structure designed to steal materials to do. Perhaps it should be called the Small Mobile 'Emily Post' Siphon Unit? After all, it is following rather strict etiquette regarding how and what it steals.

Please just shhh now. No one even understands your far fetched notion that siphons are working and your plain to see derailment of siphons is obvious to everyone. The only thing no one understands is why they even hit Tranquillity in this state? WTF was the dev thinking? and who is taking his place for the fix? They are broken and they could be great a tool for making moons mean something again other than a stream of income in one direction to the big blue boring doughnut.

Is the game and CCP's affairs in such a tragic fragile state that they dare not jeopardize the moon income of pet alliances? Will alliances be that buthurt over actually having to fight and do something that they'll cry to CCP and oh no huff puff un sub or yeah uhm DDOS tantrum? or was it plain developer incompetence? I'm asking expecting an answer.

Invested a few hundred mil in siphons, a 5 workdays worth of free time, profit made 25 mil and I only targeted R64 moons. Would have been better to just mine in a frig for the time it took jumping system to system. I would collect before and after work, then place more siphons as others died on different r64 POSs

Clearly it's not as much of an issue as you would like to claim.

Clearly it's not as much of an issue as you would like to claim.

What?

It's totally broken, it could not get any more broken.

I don't think large alliances are the target group for this feature.