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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
31
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Posted - 2011.12.11 00:34:00 -
[811] - Quote
Jaric Ivainson wrote:Please stop calling this a "TAX"...
If this was a tax it would be based on the current selling price and not some arbitrary value assigned (dart board?) by CCP.
Yes, I'm a hi-sec PI developer, but case in point (been playing Skyrim so only now noticed how badly this was implimented, my opinion)...
Being a single-resource manufacturere, I concentrated on reactive metals...volatile pricing but always in demand and relatively easy to find the Base Metals for mining. Before Cruicble, prices were 350-420 per unit (Reactive Metals) and export fees were about 5,000 a day/planet (didn't keep track so this last number is an estimate).
Now I see Reactive Metals have dropped to the sub-300 price and now that same export charge is about 478,000 (average, as planets have been idle and fees ranged from 306,000* - 574,000*).
I recall them (CCP) referring to this as a TAX based on what appears to be an arbitrary value of the item being exported (or imported). WOW...I would love to see Reactive Metals selling for 500/unit...a price I don't recall seeing since maybe when PI first started. Realistically this percentage should vary from planet to planet (hi-sec space here), system to system depending on availability on a planet, security level and maybe even current engagements going on in the area.
This is not a TAX but a flat rate charge per unit. A tax would vary based on the current market prices where currently the above export fees would have ranged from 142,000* to 321,000*
So CCP wants to fiddle with numbers and put the player base in an uproar...fine, that's their right and choice, but call things by the right terms. This is simple an export/import charge per unit...not a tax...unless they plan on changing this in the furture (something I highly doubt will happen considering the number of client 'updates' right after a patch...very tiring)
*Exact Numbers culled from Wallet and calculator
I always love it when language ***** get it wrong. You might want to consult a dictionary before you rant.
A tax can certainly be a flat rate. Ever hear of a "poll tax", for example? But a tax as a percentage of an arbitrarily assigned valuation? Sounds exactly like the property taxes I pay on our house.
/me shakes his head at the unbridled arrogance of language ***** who are always convinced that things they don't understand are wrong. |
ILeone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.01.07 11:58:00 -
[812] - Quote
We are a small corp and have so far put up 6 POCO's in 0.4 systems the oldest being around 4 weeks old, the newest 2 weeks.
The TOTAL imcome from all POCO's over that period of time has been 75m isk for an investment of close to 1 billion isk taking into account the time to take down the Interbus co's, ammo, replacing 2 destroyed co's and getting ganked while killing the Interbus co's.
All in all, its a pretty terrible return on investment.
Two suggestions :
- Some method if judging you income before you take down a CO. - Some method of attracting players to your planet.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2012.01.07 17:54:00 -
[813] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ang Min wrote:Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile. That was a specific design choice by the devs so that they wouldn't be treated as loot pinatas (to be blown up for the contents). Instead, now they'll only be blown up for business reasons (to put up your own POCO) or for PvP purposes (burning of the fields). Gotta be honest: I do not understand this decision by CCP.
Specifically, why is blowing up one structure to be treated differently than another? Taking a POS for example, pilots blow them up for both politics and profit.
Is it the case where having too much incentive (nice loot drops) to reinforce and destroy POCOs is somehow detrimental to the intended design and mechanics of DUST 514? If so, that's pretty ****** logic. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
20
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Posted - 2012.02.07 12:21:00 -
[814] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Since all of these suggestions are completely absurd, that makes them approximately equal. I will now make my own profiling of EVE activities:
To suggest that making players work for their lovelies is good for the economy is like suggesting that you'd want to fly something small and fast to get through dangerous lowsec safely (like a rookie ship), or that CCP was right again as always. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2012.02.19 21:16:00 -
[815] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Jade Nexia wrote:"CCP Omen" wrote: Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80? That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right? It is entirely possible that the tax base has to be tuned after further investigation the same way as we re-balance other stuff. The foundation in market prices will however not likely change. Regards Omen How about picking more representative market prices? While some of the examples above have gone *up* in per-unit pricing creating potential 'taxation bargains,' many have gone *down* effectively pushing up the tax rate significantly specific items.
Whatever the design cost and game design reasons behind the PI taxation changes, the net result to your subscribers is generally reduced income based upon a very narrow snapshot of data that varies greatly from true and current prices.
Where does CCP stand on PI taxation moving foward? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2012.03.18 13:56:00 -
[816] - Quote
Thread necro time.
As we continue to see PI item pricing decline these past several months, the CCP-fixed import and export tax values introduced late last year become more and more burdensome. Even with minimal-rate corp or alliance owned POCOs, this is still a fact.
What is CCP's take on this situation? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2012.04.18 03:22:00 -
[817] - Quote
Waving my extra wide wand of resurrection, this thread moves up a bit.
What is CCP's take on the fixed POCO tax values that are wickedly out of synch with the increasingly depressed PI market prices? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
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Posted - 2012.04.22 22:37:00 -
[818] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Kblackjack54 wrote:All very interesting stuff this thread, lot of useful insight into the twisted thinking of CCP regarding EVE and the tenuous link between that and the Console game DUST, seems the recent changes to PI are in the opinion of many almost totally geared towards that end, if so let us hope that CCP continue in this vein as quickly as they can, that way we as players of EVE can isolate and kill off any such ideas by the simple expedient of not engaging in PI at all, No link No DUST, they have my vote on this change.
On a lighter note, This DEV suggests that players engaged in PI should concentrate anything above P1 ops on planets with customs offices run by 'Interbus', interesting idea, but I wonder if this DEV is actually watching what is currently going on in 0.0, Alliances are ridding themselves of 'Interbus' facilities as quickly as resources allow in the hope of making a fast ISK killing from taxes, the sudden drop off in logistic transport orders for the movement of PI goods to Empire indicates that this is not going to be the case at all, the owners of the POCO will of course continue to operate if only to recoup there investment but most seem to have already pulled out of the PI game, so that idea was a bust from the start.
Did a quick sweep of surrounding systems two days back in Losec, few remaining original facilities but these had not been replaced with POCO's in the main suggesting the originals had been knocked probably just because they could, and the few that were installed were on of course Plasma planets and surprise surprise, all were damaged to some level and would either remain in that state due to lack of equipment to repair them or will shortly be destroyed, so that idea is another bust.
My original comment that this was and remains a very bad idea still stands, taking an axe to micro manage an economy has in the past never worked and the ramifications of this change are yet to be fully revealed but discussions around the Alliance indicate that they are gearing up for major cost increases in every commodity as they predict that PI will die out in 0.0/Losec with there members already moving alts into Empire to secure lines of supply.
In conclusion this ham fisted attempt to leverage console gamers into EVE via the back door is so transparent I cannot understand why others have not picked up on it yet and rather than gripe on about increased taxes and product costs fully grasp the negative effect this change is really going to have on the game. It really sucks to be right sometimes. But yeah, this is spot on. Thank you for your comments.
I'm sorry, but what exactly does all this have to do with console gamers?
Aside from that, nice post. I was wondering about the situation myself.
It appears what you are saying, (at least with respect to lowsec you visited), is that all the POCOs and COs have been vadalized or just outright destroyed for the sake of it rather than for any practical reason by people who could care less about that sort of thing?
That actually fits nicely with my assessment of a lot of Lowsec gankers, but I still hesitate to believe that it is true in all cases. There is likely Lowsec that isn't plagued by this problem. Perhaps even a lot of it.
It is also entirely possible that they are just fighting over control of what may be a potentially lucrative investment. Of course, with all that fighting it's not going to be lucrative at all, but they either have or will figure that out eventually. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
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Posted - 2012.04.22 22:39:00 -
[819] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Thread necro time.
As we continue to see PI item pricing decline these past several months, the CCP-fixed import and export tax values introduced late last year become more and more burdensome. Even with minimal-rate corp or alliance owned POCOs, this is still a fact.
What is CCP's take on this situation?
you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
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Posted - 2012.04.23 21:14:00 -
[820] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps.
This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs...
TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
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Justin Cody
T.A.L.O.N. Company Psychotic Tendencies.
25
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Posted - 2012.04.25 08:53:00 -
[821] - Quote
The biggest problem with lo sec PI is that the planets don't produce enough resources to attract intense industry and they don't regenerate fast enough. CCP ought to consider tweaking the variable there. Some planets can barely sustain 2 day mining rates.
if I could sustain 1 day rates then it would be alright, but at the moment it is sad panda. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
36
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Posted - 2012.04.25 15:33:00 -
[822] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:The biggest problem with lo sec PI is that the planets don't produce enough resources to attract intense industry and they don't regenerate fast enough. CCP ought to consider tweaking the variable there. Some planets can barely sustain 2 day mining rates.
if I could sustain 1 day rates then it would be alright, but at the moment it is sad panda.
While I agree, the rates can be a bit low, and it adds a lot to the workload, it might also help for Sad Panda to move deeper into losec; there are some pretty productive planets in 0.1 systems.
The problem with making it easier is -- it may not help it be much more profitable. That'll increase supply, which will depress prices.
What might work out is to focus on making it less work, balanced in ways that don't really change the total production. Say, cut the production levels a bit, up the replenishment, so you don't have to move around as much.
But the problem with making it less work is -- it cuts into the competitive advantage of those who are willing to work harder. And that does sound like you, if you're looking to go to a 1-day rate!
But some people might be more willing to spend 15 minutes per planet every 3 days, and some might be more willing to spend 5 minutes per planet every day. I think you're in the latter subgroup. I used to be as well, but now I find myself in different groups on different days, and either way, I don't have the time to really optimize my personal production as I try to coordinate operations on a larger scale.
Overall, I agree it is frustrating to carefully optimize, only to have to throw away that work a day later. And when things are frustrating, it's probably a good sign that a change is in order. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
36
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Posted - 2012.04.25 15:36:00 -
[823] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff.
I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
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Posted - 2012.04.25 17:22:00 -
[824] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. Fair point, but I am a stubborn S.O.B. and unfortunately lack CCP's ability to selectively forget about projects and in-game features put into play and then dropped for something that sparkles more. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
38
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Posted - 2012.04.26 07:42:00 -
[825] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:ZaBob wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. Fair point, but I am a stubborn S.O.B. and unfortunately lack CCP's ability to selectively forget about projects and in-game features put into play and then dropped for something that sparkles more.
Let's hear it for stubborn S.O.B.'s!
We would have neither the internet nor spaceships without them! |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
124
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Posted - 2012.05.18 17:11:00 -
[826] - Quote
Inquiring [again] about the fixed value taxation adjustments that we discussed back in October and November 2011 [when CCP decided to suck more ISK out of player wallets]. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
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